It is true Gillard said no carbon tax.
Also true she changed her mind ,had to after a hung Parliament.
It may well be true also had Abbott got the numbers he too may have bought in such a tax.
Such is the state of Australian politics.
But I see something else here, Gillard along with Rudd shamed the ALP with a gutless back down,I do not think she was ever commited to carbon tax, any tax.
She is fighting for her survival, for my party sake she must go.
This year she says is a year of actions not words Bill Shorten now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of the party please.
We always should have supported the tax.

I put this thread forward despite my view may be OLO should take a break from politics.
My future threads will not be, for a while, about the subject.
I vote Labor always[ execpt NSW next month]
That is because after thinking it out they best serve my interests.
If as some think, politics is black and white,my view is it is like one of my Mini Foxys, half black half white very noisy at times.
Julia Gillard will not lead us for long, she never should have.
Labor voters must surely still be as I am in shock.
Just how did Kevin 07 turn in to election 2010?
What happened to climate change, why cash for old wrecks,how did we get to sending $900 checks to dead people or people who had not lived here for years.
Gillard CAN NOT CLAIM TO BE A BY STANDER she had her chance,would any of us, with her position stand idly by and say nothing.
Her action speak for her, she clings still to policy's that bought Rudd down, rather he return than Julia remain.
This morning another good man,not Shorten is named as leader, maybe but new leader we will get.
This last is to remind those who will jump in and use this to pillory the ALP and me,
Abbott and Pyne 4 or 5 others are far worse in my view.
And removal of Abbott would destroy my party's chance of re election no matter who leads it.
Those who see no good in one and no bad in their side are blind and uninformed.

Juliar never saw a tax she didn't love.

The simple way to get it through is to use it to replace other taxes such as GST or land tax. In this way the public would see that they are paying a different tax rather than more tax. Subsidising those effected by the tax is simply undermining its effect.

With the cost of energy increasing people are noticing, and the blame is being placed squarely on Labor's shoulders rightly or not. Keneally recognised this and tried to head it off, Juliar is simply painting a huge target on her back, and I see TA and others sharpening the arrows and thanking their lucky stars that she could be so naive.

P.S.

A recent survey indicated that the greens voters are on average the wealthiest. They are keen to support a carbon tax, as for them the effect will be insignificant.

The lowest income voters are Labor voters who will feel the pain the most. Juliar has effectively sacrificed her voters for Bob Brown.

if i had the energy

i would explain how penny wrong
[one of the back door[room] boys club
explained how julia said they loved the idea of a tax..pre election

she [penny is a bald face lier

[this is more faceless men stuff]
you know the backroom money men

with no face thus no honour

it will never be a face-off
both parties..[heck the greenies too]..
are run from/via the backdoor..as they say

follow who gets the money
thats the whole of the game
just watch who gets the cash

john howards backroom guys said
give the gst to the states

then took the fed money
...fed-govt used to give ..to the states

heck whats the use
its easier to swallow their lies
than explain ..how they do ...what they ALL do

its all about taxation..WITHOUT representation
recall when usa went to war..on just a tax on tea
or india with just a tax on salt

govt got no right to any of it
but neither big business ..needing a just a little bit more

from the govt cash cow

why bother
they love paying guilt taxes belly
its not julia..thats the problem..

its them faceless men..
and their greedy ..money grubbing boys club mates
knowing greenhouse gasses is multiple
and carbon is only one

tax all greenhouse gasses
not just one

you will hear all the tax goes to bailout's
just watch who gets how much

one thousand will get 70 percent..[big buisines]
one million may get 20%

the 10%..rest will be admin fees
and hopefully auditing

they will speak of generalities
that allow all ..to think its them what will be bailed out
it wont be

tax all greenhouse gasses
especially the methane from minning
and coal gassification and home composting

methane is 100 times worse than carbon
but the stuff that cleans solar cells is even worse

and its time
ALL greenhouse gasses got taxed
not just the ones that get a big new tax from the people

put tax on exports
put tax on miners
tax those generating ...all* the green-house/gasses
not just carbon..[and tobacco]

REMEMBER carbonated soft drink
is made from co2...

[ban softdrink
put a tax on softdrink]
its junk

ps noted the
'your grenhouse gas emmisions'
..on your electicity bill?
its been on ya bills for a long time
thats a guilt facter...[you didnt complain then]

so you cant* complain *when its cost
becomes monetised later...lol

you didnt complain
when it matterd

stop electing lawyers into govt
they are far too clever..by far

I will look a little deeper at the subject than you Shadow Minister.
See I am a gardener,very much more so now I have retired.
Sat/Sunday early morning off to the market days.
I look at the spot I am to plant in, pitch fork it over think about what is going there and plant, I get results.
I support carbon reduction, strongly firmly, but Not Gillard at all.
I truly believe she did not want to raise pensions, spoke against it, and that she gave too much back to miners to look good.
I think she has as much, maybe more blood on her hands for the FAILURE of the Rudd government.
I doubt she is able to do what john Howard always did, milk his Coalition partners dry to the point of owning them.
He turned the Country party in to the Nationals, in an effort to survive bush peoples views laying down to Liberals had turned that party from a country one to a miners one.
Again if only we knew what Abbott offered greens, we know what he offered the Tasmanian who finished third but won his seat.
Remember SM 3 men stood against Nationals being Liberals property, they are the back bone of this government.
As honest and no different than they ever have been, mud sticks but mostly to those who throw it.
In time, not long to wait, Abbott will be gone, Gillard too, I await your comments about little man Tony then

more info behind the backflip?
on landline[next week]
it gets revealed about agri-culture
being excluded from the BIG NEW tax..

nothing big there...until you hear the why of it
seems fully one third of nitrogen that gets put on our crops
vaperises..into the sky..[up to one third]

here is the kicker
it vaperises into laughing gas..[nitrous oxide]
and nitrous oxide is ...*300 times as bad..*as carbon

add in the methane..[from mining and coal seam gas]
add in the solarcells cleaning agent
add in co2 from softdrink

your either beginning to see
why mining and agriculture are excluded

why its only our power bills and petrol
not AGRO-culture or mine-ers

cant you see we are being conned here yet again?

just like YOU got conned ..with taxing smokers to death
or the lie of every cigarette causing cancer
[as revealed 2 out of 3 CANT GET CANCER ever..!

its all about a new tax
for the backdoor backroom faceless men..again

recall who sold you the lie with quack science
REVEALED FRAUD..to get a new tax subsidy for the money traders

while were on this topic
think why we got a FIXED TAX PRICE FOR A FEW YEARS FIRST
has this got anything to do with the market pruice of carbon currently being between 5 and 10 bucks?

as tony reveals its likely to be 26 bucks a ton

[so why is this important?]
if we set the price at 26...it sets a floor price for carbon
meaning traders can sell their 5 dolar a ton carbon
to YOU..for 26 bucks

so now you know a bit more WHO
and WHAT is behind juli's backflip

big money
needing a big new fixed*price* tax
on everyone..

but not on those
making REAL* BAD ..greenhouse GASES

and not on all the GREeNHOUSE GASSES..only carbon gas

after we set a floor price on carbon
then the money market
trading carbon credits hits a boom

and from then on
you pay WHATEVER THEY
SPECULATE ..ITS PRICE UP-TO..!

aint they so clever
thats why they said to the red setter
jump...and she did a back flip....

[but please note who
is doing the actual dirty work...!]

however you look at it
the labrat party is gone

then we return to the real adgenda
via the other party of this two party FARCE

and still we get ever more NON-TAXED greenhouse gasses
that will kill the next generations..for sure

because they will be made ..to get off ..tax free
but its them what are and what caused any problem in the first place

we have copped lies all along

its cheaper to do it now...lol

[but if it wasnt real...
its out and out fear ..to sell us on theft]

ie we got scammed
the models didnt facter ALL the grenhouse gasses
nor the.. el nina/..el ninio ..or sothern occilation
or even the sun cycle ..or volcanic erruptions

in short the models are about as real as that movie
[copied off the blue smurfs you all got conned into seeing last year]

did that have a green theme
did it feed your fear..[thats how the game is played]

Belly if you are going to look at this deeper, then feel free to share your findings with us. So far all we have is that you think the carbon tax is good. Just as you thought the mining super tax was good, and the flood tax was good, and the NBN was good.

Your feelings are clear, taxes are good, Public spending is good.

However, your reasons are confined to your skull.

Some of us are getting the feeling that the only reason you support them is because they are Labor policies, and you don't really have a clue.

belly this is not a simple back flip.

When it was becoming clear that the voting public were not for a carbon tax Juliar drew a line in the sand, put her hand on her heart and pledged to the people:

'There will be no carbon tax under a government I lead.'

This is not ambiguous, does not have any fuzzy meaning. If as she is claiming now that she always intended a carbon tax, then she deliberately deceived the voting public and made a deep promise that she had no intention of keeping.

In this is true then Julia Gillard is deceitful and as per the thesaurus a few terms are appropriate:

A liar,
A fraud,
A con artist,
A swindler,
A cheat.

And cannot be trusted.

Can not bring yourself to say anything against two word Tony.

If Belly wants to see julia go ,I think he will have to wait.
I couldn't describe our prime minister like that. The no one person in AU deserves some respect.
She is on the right track with a carbon tax, with out it there will be no change.
Why go against a mine tax, these itinerant miners are exploiting the country for billions. If there was a better supply elsewhere, they would not be here.
The way Belly is going on, it is not good for anyone.

Belly:

Give Julia a chance. Don't write her off so quickly.

Did you see the news on TV showing quite clearly footage of Tony Abbott prior to the election repeatedly proposing a carbon tax?
Julia Gillard got into government with the backing of the Greens and three Independents. Don't you think that to stay in government Julia Gillard has to accommodate her partners in coalition? Let's look at John Howard and his promises of no GST - do we have a GST? You betcha! All this current rhetoric of the Opposition is a smokescreen to disguise their own inadequacies. We have always known that carbon trading or taxing - was going to be on the agenda if any action on climate change was going to eventuate. Climate change is real and Australia needs to respond to it. If Labor sticks to the basics - they will find that most people will approve their action. They have to work out the tougest issues of a climate policy - but that will happen. All Julia Gillard has to remember is not to follow the ethos of Tony Abbott - "Divide and Rule," this may be a sound motto for Tony Abbott - however, "Unite and Lead," is a better one. And its one
that Julia Gillard (at last) seems to be adopting. We should be cheering her on - rather than buying into the negativity and spin of the Opposition. They're becoming totally irrelevant - especially under their current leadership.

To talk about how the carbon tax is going to affect you, is all fairy- tail. No one knows until we get a model to talk about. Govt; is there to govern, so be it. You had your chance to vote.
I do not want to see the country run by union thugs, like the 70's. Wages have moved along better than ever since the union demised.
This SM bloke is off his perch, needs help. Anyone that talks on a world media like that against a nations political leader is slanderous.

579

It is only slanderous if it is not true.

579 read your posts, do not often agree, now no goggling of the top of your head.
Who lead the charge in NSW to dump Rudd recently wrote a book about it.
Union thug, now no cheating! you seem to claim understanding and Knowledge here how did Bill Shorten get his start in unionism, what event bought your claim of thuggery.
What do you want of a life time active member of the ALP? that I do not say what I think.
And last are you active in any party?
Now mate, let time prove if you or I know little about politics.
Lexi. sorry you are wrong, Julia a lady I have looked in the eye is not going to make it,she will work hard get some good results but fail.
This thread is about her faults she was at least as guilty as Rudd for our failures.
Shadow you are impossible to debate with, you never ever come here to talk about issues only defame Labor.
Your leader too is gone Turnbull, the most honest man on your team, like me supports ETS.
I dream of the day your side changes, uses existing Labor policy's.
579 know this, your broad side in my mind a load of duck feathers came because you want the greens to control the senate rather conservatives than such ever happening.
Last within the ALP Julia knows I am far from the only one unhappy.
Elections are about numbers, she can not win swinging voters, if she won an election truth would be Abbott lost it not she won.

Good morning SM see you are here too.
I did not see that last post from you until now.
Gee bloke you are a lost sole.
Gillard at least did something EVERY POLITICIAN FROM EVERY PARTY NEEDS TO DO.
She reminded questioners on radio TV any media so called reporters they are expressing political views in their questions.
ABC radio has become nearly as bad as any.
Women and men as fixed and immovable as SM, against every side come forward with questions that are in fact comment.
We must not become a world inhabited by such as SM on both sides.
Find today[except in Ackerman's column in Sydney Telegraph] a more biased and untested comment than SMS last here.

the current 'debate'..mainly is julia disputing tonies number
so lets think who released the topic without revealing the numbers

julia thinks its so clever to keep the numbers secret
her back room guys no doudt advise her not to reveal them
so we can name call numeric ignorance

then later say we told you the numbers klast time
the same numbers tony grasp's with
he didnt make them numbers up

the global warming/cooling thing
ok lets believe it is true...and it really is changing
its being changed by grenhouse gasses..ALL OF EM
NOT JUST THE EASY ONE TO TAX

mining coal releases methane
but tony loves the miners..so wont score that point

farming creates nitrous oxide
so tony wont bbe playing that card neither

home composting generates more methane that cattle
so the greenies wont be seeking a tax on that methane neither

how is this a debate?
be honest now....HOW?

there is only one villan here..
its all blamed on carbon..the scape goat that we all can get taxed on
[but some will make a proffit...[guess who..it wont be you

yet we have carbon dioxide in our dayly bread
we have it in the sugery drinks rotting out our kids teeth
even our grog wine booze ferments..co2

but we will only vilify and tax
part of the REAL problem

cant you jokers see the joke

will we get jobs taxing volcanoes
or shutting down the sun

where is the spain JOBS
now the jobs done?

we are being conned
why cany you wake up?

there shall only be ..some causual jobs
putting up the windmill or solar cells
built in china or germany..

then they fail
[they only have a 20 year life]

and we begin all over again..
but made more polution because of lies
we have lies upon lies..only fools think it will work out 'fine'

so the great lies fail
the colluded..green evolution[experiment]..
that cost us the world...FAILS

then we all die
just because we believed the sky was falling

I was not referring to bill shorten, my references were to the 70,s
Bill shorten is a moderate, and will be a leader.
I wouldn,t give you 2 bob for the greens, hopefully they will self destruct.
The sm is something different, not your average joe.
I can,t get past the fact that we have a PM, that needs backing. Personally i want a carbon tax, change will not take place with-out it.
The first carbon free units are up for sale in melbourne today.
Change will happen with a push.
People go on about just another tax, or our contrabution to carbon is not worth worrying about, is short sighted. [ carbon free units ]
Change will not cost you anything, if you keep ahead of the game.
Instead of putting a 4 wheel drive on top of the mortgage, put solar on the roof of your house. It will be more power efficient and more value for money. My last power bill for 90 days was 42 cents / day.
A pollution tax is certainly in the right direction.

The only ones I see in self destruct mode are the 2 big political dinosaurs, Labor and Liberal Parties. Remember The Greens are coming to a parliament near you. Every election we grow bigger and stronger, gaining more and more political influence. The winds of political change are starting to blow, might only be a gentle breeze today, but they may well be a tornado tomorrow! We are not here to reek political havoc on Australia, there are others who will do that. With our core beliefs of ecological sustainability, grassroots democracy, social justice and peace we are a very real alternative to the old parties with their old ideas, pandering to vested interests and not thinking of what is best for this great country of ours.

Paul,

The greens are a breath of fresh air for the coalition. By stripping the Labor party of voters on the left wing and getting Labor to break its promises to its voters, Labor is losing the centre.

With friends like the greens, who needs enemies.

Paul 1405, fortunately for Oz & its real people, the Greens are in the process of doing a Democrats.

Yes they are growing support, as did those Democrats, but their problem is the same. Once they get big enough they will start to come under real scrutiny by many of their voters, who currently have some idealized vision of what they are.

Once these voters see who & what the Greens really are, they will desert them in droves, just as they did the Democrats.

Hang on tight mate, it will be a bumpy ride, but the end is in sight.

My spin, may as well label it that. My spin is no less real than the opposing views.

PM Gillard should never had made the remark she did, I think on two occasions. It was a stupid remark, as she was quite clear that she would be developing a policy that involved a charge on carbon. She, by her statement let herself open to accused of lying in the future.
I seem to recall that the Greens were calling for a carbon tax as a temporary measure for months. The Greens wanted the tax in the short term leading to some type of ETS. Labor had rejected the Greens call, as they believed an ETS as the appropriate solution.
I do believe at that time, PM Gillard did not see the carbon tax as an option. Labor was still intending that some type of ETS was the solution to climate change. PM Gillard in her launching speech only mentioned climate change in a paragraph or two. There was an angry public outcry that Labor was ignoring climate change. As a result of this, PM Gillard stated that Labor's climate change policy involved a charge on carbon.

With the result of the election being a hung parliament, and government being formed with the Greens and Independents, what Labor intended to do became impossible. PM Gillard, I believe made the right decision to adopt the Greens plan, which is similar to what Labor wanted. What is different is the mechanism to reach an ETS in three to five years. I believe that many years have been wasted and it is time for industry and Australia for this matter to be put to bed.
PM Gillard could have because of stupid, unnecessary promise, not accepted the Greens realistic answer to climate change to save face. This would have been the wrong decision for Australia.
The question I am asking, when the present outcry settles is whether they would like to see the carbon tax dropped and no climate change action because of the perception that the PM lied. What is the most important thing to happen now, no climate change action or accept that the PM changed her mind.
Is the alleged lie important enough to demand that the PM resigns. Do we really expect all promises made during an election are kept without changes after the elections. Do we expect that the promises be kept, even if things change down the track, the promises no longer being relevant.
Does it warrant the country going back to an unnecessary election. The carbon tax is not to be introduced for another 17 months. A lot can happen in that time. I say this because all that has been announced is an outline of what is to be put in place. There will be more community and business consultation before the final legalisation is bought before parliament.

Hasbeen:

The end may well be in sight, but the question is, "For Whom?"
As long as personal ambitions, divisiveness, and dis-unity play a bigger part than unity, leadership, and sound policies in party politics - they will eventually disintegrate. And at present there's very few reasons for anyone to feel smug. We have to wait and see in which direction things will move. Everyone needs to lift their game.

This morning a man I have the highest regard for Tony Windsor was interviewed live on ABC news 24.
He was worth hearing.
He said Tony Abbott during negotiations to form government said HE WOULD DO ANYTHING TO GET POWER, ANY THING.
Sorry Paul but greens did it again yesterday, tax on petrol how truly stupid!
Windsor reminded us all, no tax has yet been announced, he not Gillard warned the greens if they went too hard no deal will come.
Gillard is a failure BUT SHE KNOWS she must not be spooked by the push bike brigade.
Crimson long way to the front gate on some farms.
579 1970,s
why say it, first became a delegate in 1962 jolls Bridges Sydney to Newcastle expressway, K D Morris from QLD, then Munmorra power station.
Never ever in my whole life saw thuggery from my union.
Saw it even now from left wing lunatics who are dieing , AWU is not copping that slander while I live.
I came here to tell it as it is Gillard is fighting hard and will not win, she however never lied, she never knew a hung Parliament would stop her.
If the best conservatives can do is on display here they have no claims at all to lead this country.

Flo,

An ETS is also a tax on carbon. People pay for a licence to pollute which goes to state revenues. This is similar to the mining royalties, they are all different types of tax. Juliar knows this and again is trying to lie her way out of a corner.

Juliar did not just make a flippant remark, she made a promise, a pledge, she gave us her word and honour that she would not impose a carbon tax. Breaking her promise to all of Australia makes her word worthless.

SM.

What the PM has done is introduced a two stage plan for a introducing a carbon price mechanism.

The PM has reneged on the promise not to bring in a carbon tax.

The PM has kept her promise to bring in a market based charge on carbon.

Flo,

The ETS is a tax on carbon, and everyone but the most ardent Labor tragics know this. A carbon tax is a simplified ETS.

Juliar promised no tax on carbon and broke it. To try and claim that she meant an ETS instead is just digging the hole deeper, and fooling no one.

Lets not forget julia also said all promises are off, as a result of a hung parliament. Tony has said he will unroll the pollution tax, not even knowing what it consists of. That is a statement, a good chance to please the neighborhood and seal the next election.
Belly the union thuggery i am referring to was the BLF boss in victoria that was jailed twice for his actions. His idea was to send all builders broke.

579 this some thing I know about and understand.
The thread and others saw real insults to Howes and Shorten, both may yet lead this country.
As a single member of my union on a building site and as an official I never backed down, left my blood on the ground and theirs rather than have left wing thugs, mugs, and criminals stand over me.
FACT, no price has yet been put on carbon, we are at stage one, talking about what we will do.
Flo you will make no ground with the gentleman.

Belly:

Shadow Minister is making such a big deal about Gillard's supposed
"back flip," which is the current Liberal strategy at the moment.
But my oh my what short memories they all have. Here's a list of 35 lies told by John Howard and co, just to jog some memories:

http://www.awu.net.au/109589607626152_5.html?H%7C19%7C1095896076261...

Belly, would you expect anything different from SM. I must admit, he is consistent.

"Flo you will make no ground with the gentleman."

Belly I do not expect to. Maybe I will with some others. People like SM are handy to use as a hook to hang an argument on. They keep coming back, which means you can repeat your opinion in an many different contexts.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but that does not mean you have to agree with them.

I agree with you, I have had a lot to do with unions, some from the far left over the years. I have found many of them perfect gentlemen with goods hearts.

"the lowest income voters are Labor voters who will feel the pain the most. Juliar has effectively sacrificed her voters for Bob Brown."

Just the same as Mr. Howard effectively sacrificed his voters for Meg Lees, getting through most of his legislation, including the GST.

SM do you think it is fair or adult for your leader to make snide remarks about PM Gillard not seeing inside a church or offering to make her an honest woman.

Surely you will agree, that this type of low quality argument is generally only found among immature adolescents in the school playground.

If you do not agree with me, can you tell me what it is adding to the debate, especially when the PM is able and willing to return with gusto whatever is lobbed to her.

That's right Flo. I think the Coalition is digging it's own grave with the abuse tactics they consistently use. In the Senate today there was a censure motion against the government and in the ensuing debate all the Liberal Senate leader could offer was immature, personal abuse, delivered with feigned angst.

The Coalition should have won the last election, and I think they lost because of the personal abuse tactic they use. If more people had thought they had suitable policies, then they would have been voted in. With a person like Malcolm Turnbull as leader, the Coalition would have managed that election in a traditional decent Liberal way, and likely would have won the election. But the rather immature Tony Abbott and his small band of abusers took control of Liberal tactics, resulting in an election loss, that should have been an election victory.

If you look at Julia Gillard's parliamentary performance, it's obvious she's having an easy time because all she has to do is argue Labor policy against consistent Coalition personal abuse.

The Australian voters aren't stupid. Come next election the recent Labor deserters will certainly return and deliver a majority Labor win. I feel the only chance for the Coalition is to get rid of the small band of immature Coalition bully boys, and replace them with mature men and women who are capable of debating and developing policy.

I wish it was true joanme.
It is not.
Voters do vote based on the verbage used by Abbott too.
Look this morning at news footage from Lybia, see the flag of the madman flying in the hands of his victims.
Flo, I have great mates on the left, I too have seen teenagers schooled to not fix chains properly, so things would fall from cranes ,so walk outs could take place.
I have seen dreadful bosses too, but that is another subject.
The very left may abandon Labor,but in doing so entrench conservative rule, as sure as the DLP did.
Last night I watched Q and A wrong subject was waiting for tonights ABC story but it was about this subject.
And one note Ackerman? gee he just may be SM.
Do not turn Gillard in to a saint she never was or will be one.
She is feisty a fighter and cornered come back hard.
And she can out box boxer Abbott every day.
But so could many.
A tweet last night asked why Turnbull and Shorten could not lead their party's.
Another reminded us all to forget the costs concentrate on the reasons.
Climate change if we do not act will cost this country more than acting ever can.
Gillard is swimming only because Abbott is leading, she and he, will go,it may well be this matter that removes both.

Belly. I do not think PM Gillard is a saint, that is one of the reasons I like her.
Belly, I would not give up on the Australian people, I give them more credit than that. It is my observation that many are switched off and the present gyrations by some politicians is being ignored or not noticed. Many such as us are mistaken in the belief that the vast majority is the voice being heard in the public arena, in reality it is a minute number. How these people will reaxt if and when they choose to take notice is unknown.
I do not agree that Mr. Shorten will be leader, and I would be surprised if many in the Labor Party thought so. Mr. Combet will be the man after PM Gillard has done what she has set out to do.
My deceased mother and her family used to earn a living by running small bakeries and eateries. She and her father use to mouth advice about running these types of business. Only fools pay for goodwill, as it is something you have to earn for yourself, build up the business and stay in for no longer than four years. The reasoning for this was that there is only so much you can give business and if you have not done it in that time, it will be down hill for the business. I think the same goes for governments and leaders. I like the USA idea of only allowing Presidents two terms.

Mr Turnbull's answers and demeanour last night was a little puzzling, He seems to be in a teasing mood, stirring the pot, as much against Mr. Abbott as Labor.
Yes, bad unions but also many a death from bosses cutting corners through pure greed or just bloody mindness.

could i make a tiny change to your words flo?

only fools *vote for goodwill

i will note two other quotes of yours
and try to refrain from making further comment

..."PM Gillard is a saint"",
the first athiest saint...lol

""Mr. Combet will be the man"
loll that replaces the wo-man?

...""after PM Gillard *has done
what she has set out to do"

i would rather say
done what she was sent in to get done..!

but all in all
you only get the leaders others will chose

they win
we loose

..""It is my observation that many are switched off
and the present gyrations by some politicians
**is being ignored or not noticed**. ""

you can chose to think so
and heck you may be right

but when their smokes get too expensive

when their petrol
..water and power bills get too EXPENSIVE
and govt has sent them broke

do you still think
then
*..that the will not notice?

..""Many such as us are mistaken in the belief
that the vast majority is the voice being heard in the public arena, in reality it is a minute number.""

yes so true..

.."How these people will react
if and when ..they choose to take notice is unknown.""

or dear flo
you must have noticed
the many people in the streets..GLOBALLY..?

this is a global..[globilists]scam
the poop *will hit the fan

its not a matter of how
but only a matter of when

the rich forcing the poor to pay
will soon have had its day

i know no-one
goes to the links
so just read the words

and weep*

asking others
the sheeple..to wake-up
is futile*

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/global-economy-23-facts-which-prove-that-globalism-is-pushing-the-standard-of-living-of-the-middle-class-down-to-third-world-levels

Walker Losing Control and Getting Desperate-
Bolting Windows Shut to Starve Out Protesters

"Walker Welding Capitol Windows NOW
to Keep Workers from Passing Food to Those Inside"
http://www.squattable.com/news/022811/walker-losing-control-and-getting-desperate-bolting-windows-shut-starve-out-protesters
"Breaking News:
Gov Walker seems to have lost control of everyone
but the welders"

http://saladin-avoiceinthewilderness.blogspot.com/2011/02/purpose-of-state-is-to-turn-you-into.html
[a machine]

Thom Hartmann asks - Which one of these people can the American people no longer afford to support with their tax dollars?

The Wall Street executives and major Republican donors who gambled with OUR money and swindled our nation into a depression?

Or the teachers in Wisconsin - minor but not irrelevant Democratic donors - who educate thousands of our children and prep them for jobs in the future?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAy2-SAun4k&feature=player_embedded

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/02/financial-industry-has-become-so.html

http://www.squattable.com/news/022811/budget-crisis-my-ass-we-have-refusal-2-levy-adequate-taxes-those-can-afford-it-crisis

http://dailybail.com/home/pissed-off-irishman-talks-bankster-bailouts-greed-greed-chea.html

if you have “one dollar” in your wallet, you’re paying more than the “combined income tax liability of GE, ExxonMobil, Citibank, and the Bank of America“:

[Gibson] explains, “I have one dollar in my wallet. That’s more than the combined income tax liability of GE, ExxonMobil, Citibank, and the Bank of America. That means somebody is gaming the system.”
http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.com/2011/02/report-you-have-more-money-in-your.html

http://dailybail.com/home/14-million-per-page-how-ireland-paid-merrill-lynch-for-advic.html

http://dailybail.com/home/will-bernanke-scoop-up-50-billion-of-irelands-toxic-assets-f.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1361316/250bn-wind-power-industry-greatest-scam-age.html

http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=90
sheep dont help other sheep
they all get slaughterd
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=14142

http://redactednews.blogspot.com/2011/02/gates-foundation-controls-media-through.html
Gates Foundation
As Does Israel
Controls Media Through Massive Journalism Grants
By: tyler durden

(NaturalNews) Most major newspapers and media outlets in the world are owned by a handful of multinational corporate giants, who together control the content of what is distributed to the masses.

But a recent report in The Seattle Times questions the influence the world's most powerful foundation, the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation (BMGF), has on the media as well

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2011/03/this-is-what-dictators-are-really-scared-about/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=gizmodo

http://uruknet.com/?p=m75413&hd=&size=1&l=e

Juliar is claiming industry support, but her erstwhile ally Heather Ridout of the AIG has abandoned her.

"But Ms Ridout, the Australian Industry Group chief executive, last night declined to back Ms Gillard's proposal to introduce a fixed carbon price from July 1 next year and an emissions trading scheme three to five years later.

"The jury is very much still out on the introduction of a carbon price in Australia, with industry very concerned about the competitive impacts," Ms Ridout said.

"In this regard, all options should still be on the table, including that of rollback until the final shape of the government's proposal is clear."

The reality is that there are a few industries backing the carbon tax, those being ones that can either simply pass on the tax to consumers, or those only slightly affected.

This tax will raise the cost of electricity, the cost fuel, and as a result, the cost of producing and distributing food, and pretty much the cost of everything.

“I see that Heather Ridot CEO of the AIG has made some negative comments about the carbon tax”

Exciting news is not it.
Most will recall that intensive negotiations was carried out with all branches of business and other interested parties before the previous scheme, you know, the one Mr. Rudd presented to parliament.

It is sad that owing to a very obstinate man, who cannot make up his mind and is a little pig headed, the process has to be gone through again. It is not hard to work out that the government cannot released the details until this occurs again.

I am not to sure what “under one god” is on about, I denied that the PM was a saint. I would like to add, that not having belief in religion bars you from doing good. Whether the PM has been sent or what she has set out to do, is little more than semantics.

It is about time poor have their day, even if many of the wealthy feel they have been unfairly treated. How do they, the wealthy, explain how in this country and the USA, the distribution of wealth between the top ten percent growing dramatically at the expense of the lower eighty percent.

You might noticed that petrol and power is getting expensive and will continue to do so, regardless what is done about climate change. I, am one that believes the situation will be worse if we do not address climate change.

I agree only fools vote or pay for good will. We seem to agree.

Tony,s rollback is a stuped thing to say. industry is now confused.

One of the most important things about pricing carbon is that it has the support of industry; there's of course a few who disagree, as 100% agreement on any policy issue is impossible.

Industry knows, as sure as day follows night, that prices for commodities like fuel and electricity are rising RIGHT NOW, and they have been for quite some time, and will continue to do so. By pricing carbon, the eventual cost of these commodities in future decades will be significantly LESS than what they otherwise will be.

If we do nothing, we will eventually pay higher prices for our food, entertainment, fuel, clothes, medical treatment, electricity etc.

Industry recognises this, and this is the reason they broadly support pricing carbon.

And just like the climate change deniers, carbon price deniers can always quote one or two industry people who think as they do on the subject of carbon pricing. Believe it or not there's STILL a handful "experts" who deny that smoking tobacco causes cancer. The fact is that pricing carbon has broad industry support, therefore the real debate lies in not whether or not we should have it, the debate is how it's implementation should be handled.

Tony Abbott supports carbon pricing one day, then the next day is against it. Tony Abbott's stance on the subject matter is 100% politically based, depending on whether or not it advantages him and the Coalition politically at the time: Politics first, Australia second.

As Abbott said He will do anything to be Prime Minister I assume that means he will prostitute himself in any way he can to achieve him ambition. I can't support some defrocked catholic priest! Or what ever he is.

Joame,

If it has the support of industry, please feel free to name those industries or industry groups that support this tax. I think you will find the list very thin.

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2011/s3151432.htm

The farmers and small business will not get compensated and will lose business to imports. Only the big emitters will be compensated. The latest polling seems to indicate that the majority of Australians don't want a tax on their lifestyle either.

BlueScope Calls Australia Carbon Tax Plan ‘Economic Vandalism’

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-27/carbon-tax-economic-vandalism-for-australia-bluescope-steel-chief-says.html

Let us get this clear,what I say in this post, maybe the next is what I believe to be the truth.
I think Gillard never wanted a carbon tax, say clearly she did say we will have no tax.
While I await her fall, DO NOT THINK SHE LIED.
Simply did not know a hung Parliament would be the result.
I think as Tony Abbott has said Labor had a mandate to bring in an ETS in the first term.
Not Tony Abbott at that time BELIEVED IN MAN MADE CLIMATE CHANGE AND AN ETS, is on record saying it.
Abbott today hinted it was Gillard not Rudd who stopped the ETS.
Abbott now supports a scheme that GIVES TAX PAYER FUNDS TO BIG BUSINESS to cut carbon .
Tax payers will pay for every cent of that, big new tax?
Abbott has said man made climate change is real/rubbish, we need an ETS /we do not need an ETS.
Abbott proposes we pay for high income mums to take leave, and is not calling it a tax.
Abbott says you can only believe what he says if it is scripted, who is the lie teller here
contained.

Malcolm Turnbull last night looked statesman like, nearly as good as Shorten.
He has been hardened by his trip in to the fire but like good steel came out the better for it.
He has learned an Abbott trick, complain constantly, not my wish but it works.
He looked 10 classes above Hockey Pyne Bishop and more over Abbott today.
Bishop walked in to Parliament today and with forethought lied to Australia.
She knowingly told a selected bit of Gillards speech last Tuesday.
With deliberate ,and well planed lies she tried to make that speech say things it never did.
A question, do Australians want an ETS?
and FLO YOU MUST NOT FORGET, Gillard has lost the male vote, not because she is a woman, but because she even today is not quite fair dinkum.
The lies are thick on the floor in conservatives seats area like ticket that ran last on the grand stand at Randwick.
But liking some one will not change voters intentions.
Look closely at Abbott standing in the next few polls it should show many points down, but let us see.

We need to move on whether what is proposed to address climate change will benefit this country. Do we think that Mr. Abbott's scheme is better.
I, among others believe that Mr. Abbott, the Leader of the Opposition has only one, what I call an obsession to get the voters back to another election he believes he can win. He has stated recently if he won, he would have a mandate to do what he likes. Does that mean he expects the Greens who will have the balance of power in the Senate to roll over at his demand.

My scenario if the matter was tried in court.

Have you studied the facts that are available to be so sure the PM would be convicted.

I have a feeling if you were able to take the allegations, your solicitor would have to advise you that are unlikely to win.
The reason for this is that no one's denies the words were said.

In court, the words would put back in context which gives them another likely meaning.

The words in themselves mean little. You would have to prove that at the time, the PM intended to bring in a carbon tax. Surprisingly, in the public arena at the time, there is evidence that this was not Labor policy and Labor had rejected calls from the Greens to do so.

You would have to prove that when the PM voiced the words, she knew she intended to introduce a carbon tax. You would find this hard to do.
The scenarios are that:-
The PM made the statement knowing was lie.
The PM believed at the time there would not be a carbon tax in a government she led.
The PM told the truth but changed conditions after the elections left her with two choices.
The PM could keep the promise and attempt the impossible because of the make-up of parliament to get it pass
The PM could abandon any action on climate change altogether but this would mean abandoning her promise to bring in market based charge on carbon.
The PM could renege on her promised not to introduce a carbon tax and introduce a temporary carbon tax to be replaced by a market base charge in three to five years.

What the PM has done is introduced a two stage plan for an introducing a carbon market price mechanism.
The PM has reneged on the promise not to bring in a carbon tax.
The PM has kept her promise to bring in a market based charge on carbon.

She did not knowingly lie.
She bent to the will of ALL her partners in both houses.
Great importance was put on ETS by country independents.
One of whom Abbott told HE WOULD DO ANY THING TO GAIN POWER.
A large number, big list, of non core broken promises from Howard is like a ghost haunting the minds of far more than conservatives want.
As we get deeper into mud throwing, further from the Westminster system our Parliament was based on, My predictions of leadership change comes closer.
Again we do not know what costs if any we face, yet knowingly conservatives lie, saying up to 15% price increases are the outcome.
LIE as much as you wish but both sides can be condemned without using lies.
Abbott bless the little fella,is my party's best performer.

BHP Billiton, the world's biggest miner, supports a carbon tax:
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/business/its-time-for-a-carbon-tax-boss-marius-kloppers/story-e6frez7r-1225924615262 They know it's essential to do this at some stage, otherwise Australia will be left behind the advanced world, and prices will rise far beyond than they otherwise would. The eventual, long term result of not pricing carbon and of no emissions trading scheme is more tax and higher prices.

Research by Dr Michael Schaper, small business commissioner of the ACT shows that Australia has around 1,163,000 businesses. The Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry released last year a poll that showed around 290,750 Australian businesses supported a carbon tax or ETS. That's a lot of companies, and if listed one beneath each other would take up many thousands of OLO forum pages. I'm confident that after the carbon pricing and ETS are finalised, and all the details are worked out after the consultation period, that support will be around 50/50. Companies will then have the real facts and figures instead of what they have now, which is hysterical Coalition lies and figures made up for political purposes by the Coalition.

Because the announcement has just happened, and because the Labor government has gone against an election promise "there will not be a carbon tax" while at the same time are honouring an election promise "our policy is to price carbon", there is public confusion. As a result, this is the time when pricing carbon will be the least popular it will ever be. Given a bit of time the Australian population will realise that it's a necessity for survival in this modern world: By necessity I mean an 'economic' necessity. To not do it will mean eventual higher prices and more tax and lower industry profit levels.

The Coalition is only interested in a short term view because they see that as giving them a political advantage. Politics first, Australia second.

Joanme,

By your own figures about 25% of business supports the carbon tax.

The Chairman of BHP might support a carbon tax, but with its oil and gas for whom the consumer will pay the tax, PHP is largely unaffected. Notably none of the other mining giants have supported it.

Blue scope steel, Australia's last steel maker has called the carbon tax Economic vandalism, as its main competitor is China who has no carbon tax.

I personally believe that a carbon tax is necessary, but that unilateral action is not warranted, and would cripple the last remnants of manufacturing in this country.

It would be good if even those who oppose everything I say could take a minute this morning.
Find the oline issue of the Sydney morning Herald.
Read the piece from that papers political Editor.
We, every one of us, need to see it is getting very near fact.
Australian politics is generating HATE.
That story includes DEATH THREATS to Tony Windsor.
What has happened to our country?
And a report,please consider,Tony Abbott,not little in statue but in thought and actions.
Has told his team to concentrate on Labor!
Not be side tracked by their own individual THOUGHTS ON CLIMATE CHANGE!
Who then is acting in the Nations interest?
I am no saint,vote Labor and fear the greens, I truly fear the radicalization in that party.
I am on record saying the NSW ALP is dead by its own hand and actions.
I deeply feel middle Australia agrees with me.
BUT dog whistle politics,death of truth politics is bringing and end to my country's basic foundation fair go mate.
IF Tony Abbott had cobbled together government he this morning would be told, oh yes he would,he is working on behalf of the real Prime Minister Bob Brown.
Because like Gillard he would have to deal with them and he is on record saying he would do any thing to get power.
Within the heart of this country on every side is a fear of the greens.
Abbott however is the very real danger to our way of life.

Here you all go bleating about carbon dioxide when it may well turn
out that the IPCC says whoops when they rerun their computer model
against realistic data.

You are wasting your time.
bye.

Until there is an agreement amongst the large polluters, a Carbon tax in Australia is not in the country's interest. Juliar is perfectly aware of this, which is why she personally persuaded Rudd to drop the ETS after the debacle in Copenhagen.

This carbon tax has nothing to do with the nation's welfare, rather political convenience and Labor's welfare.

Bazz you are without doubt a good man, but your post clearly trys to end a discussion.
I KNOW AND YOU DO NOT, is what your statement says.
Maybe we always have been divided,maybe the net has just let us say it to more, letters to the editor attract, always have,weird views.
You side step the whole point of this thread, the threats, the lies crafted and put together by Abbott and his team.
You Dennie climate change yet surely,, only the reason for it is up for debate.
You then use the very body that is warning us ,to degrade my right to an opinion.
Is Gillard feisty, is she our first female PM, is she nice, brave because she knew telling us the Truth,that she is not a believer in God, yes to all.
Did she lie,did she know that day she would confront a hung Parliament and change her mind?
Did she handle the issue poorly,YES
Did she play a suspected role in stopping Rudd bring in the ETS, MY view yes.
Will she be replaced in time over this event, yes in my view.
Is that fair? no.
Is the tax fixed yet, can anyone say how much it is, who understands it will take till mid next year after talks consultations and dealings to put a price on Carbon.
I challenge you Bazz, tell me I do not have the right to my view tell me we do not have climate change what ever its reasons.
And in these very hard times, that may well remove the federal ALP look at the fear and lies coming from conservatives.
Tell me their plan is not to tax us ,tell me it is not to reward business, and tax P. A.Y.E
Tell me I am open to learning Tony Abbott is not lieing to us all.

Question time and today events need us all to look understand just how bad this country's public politics has become.
I do not like Gillard, but in comparison to Abbott's hit squad she is statesman like.
Today conservatives your side of the house said she is as bad as the idiot leader of Libya!
A BOLD LIE.
No longer is the debate about Gillard and a perceived lie it is a question how much lower ,how many more lies will Abbott's team deliver?

Well it looks as though Tony Abbott is more believable:

From the SMH today:

"Carbon tax is poll poison for NSW

-Only 18 per cent of NSW voters support tax
-Poll shows Coalition plan to use it as weapon
-Some Labor MPs also against carbon tax

VOTERS have rejected Julia Gillard's carbon tax, Coalition polling across NSW state seats found, with almost two thirds of people against it.

In a sign of the battle ahead for Julia Gillard in selling the new tax to voters, only 18 per cent of NSW voters said they were in favour of a tax. About the same number said they had not yet made up their mind.

But 62 per cent said they were firmly against it."

However Juliar would like to spin it, apparently no one is listening to her any more.

Shadow Minister,

Must say that it's highly entertaining watching you and rehctub going through the motions...(I think it's possible that the two of you might actually have the impetus to bring the government down)....just watch you don't blow a gasket in the process.

Things do seem to be getting rather nasty in the federal arena at the moment.
Here's Barrie Cassidy's take on things:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/02/3153373.htm

Unfortunately there is no stop sign in sight.
Very real numbers of voters do get their views after listening to shock jocks and shocking politics.
But Abbott did slip in the last polls, he should plummet in the next.
But my not,this cry about everything stuff help Labors efforts to remove its self in 1975.
But if that happens we are still in for a rough ride,no way we can avoid dog whistle politics in return.
Well just maybe.
This issue, if we are mature enough, can see new leader ship on both sides.
What a breath of fresh clean air!
Watch this space.

as one who has never seen a govt[in power]that he likes
i feel heartend to see belly has returned to his full vigor
[flo and joame are to credit for this]

it was sad to see the black swan claiming 7000 'green jobs'
in the lower house yesterday..[see this 7000 low skil jobs is based on a carbon price of 46 a ton

as the two party tony is making his case
on a much lower number...

..it should be an interesting name calling question time today

we are being scammed of course
only those with party blindness could fail to see this

carbon is only one greenhouse 'gas'
there are many [far worse]

but as these are produced
by farmers and miners
well

they MUST be protected
better to tax
those sustaining these leeches
with yet another tax [thats not a tax]lol

dont you lot notice
the talk is about greenhouse GASSES
methane and laughing gas to name just two
really bad ones

but the tax only on one..
go figure eh

oh recall spain went huge on green jobs
now they are broke..[and the jobs NOW ITS BUILT..
or rather..now the free govt cash..are gone so too the jobs

BUT THE DEBT REMAINS

and the solar cells costing us the earth
dont work at night thus are only a duplicated system

[sending consumers broke subsidising the non market price..
the solar scammers sell the tiny bit of DAY time power ..they do produce ..for.]

its worth noting this article
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1361316/250bn-wind-power-industry-greatest-scam-age.html

three great lies.

but heck
you dont read links

so here
REBUT this

The megawatts supplied by our 3,500 turbines is derisory:
no more than the output of a single, medium-sized conventional power station the turbines are ludicrously inefficient.

The most glaring dishonesty peddled by the wind industry — and echoed by gullible politicians — is vastly to exaggerate the output of turbines by deliberately talking about them only in terms of their 'capacity', as if this was what they actually produce.

*Rather, it is the total amount of power
they have the capability of producing.
under the variable wind conditions
no wind..and

*ya need buy ya power from france

wind,is that it is constantly varying in speed, so that the output of turbines averages out at barely a quarter of their capacity.

Furthermore, as they increase in number (the Government wants to see 10,000 more in the next few years) it will, quite farcically, become necessary*

*to build a dozen or more gas-fired power stations,
running all the time and emitting CO2,

simply to provide instant back-up
for when the wind drops.

[or night falls]
and thats why they need YOUR tax
[and to prop up the carbon specualers market]

where they will speculate the price of carbon..UP

[putting on so much presure..
they hope to turn carbon into diamonds]

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1361316/250bn-wind-power-industry-greatest-scam-age.html#ixzz1FTjCYBTZ

THOUGHT FOR THE DAY!
"... the media serve the interests of state and corporate power, which are closely interlinked, framing their reporting and analysis in a manner supportive of established privilege and limiting debate and discussion accordingly."-- Noam Chomsky

much like govt
two parties
both serving the self/same self intrest
wall street..money men/farmers/loggers/fishers/miners

via the two party plutocracy
via demonocracy..the two party system

selling the peoples assets
while giving away their compulsory taxes

See the latest headline?

"Brown leads ALP on a merry dance"

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/brown-leads-alp-on-a-merry-dance/story-e6frg6zo-1226014989303

The Greens are heading the agenda, and Labor is taking all the flak.

This is Win Win for Bob Brown and Lose Lose for Juliar.

This internal division is what cost Abbott in the last polls, and now it is Labor's turn.

As far as Barnie Cassidy's and Tony Windsor's concerns, is it the shock Jocks that are whipping up the sentiment or are the shock Jocks responding to the outrage the public is feeling.

The polls I posted earlier show clearly that the outrage is there.

Juliar has a very short window to change public sentiment, or very soon they will stop listening altogether.

Just another day, just another insult.
Or is it?
What do we want from Australian politics, is it to be the unaware who listen to or take up the ideas such as SM posts.
Is it my said to be bigotry in favor of the ALP.
A change, an earth quake in politics is coming, Abbott will fall, by his own hand over this weeks rubbish.
Gillard too will go, for past sins that do not involve a claim she deliberately lied.
Look deeply at this matter, think clearly, I am no supporter of our PM, NEVER WILL BE.
But see the lie put by a bitter man in the post above mine, I do not care if I am bared SHADOW MINISTER is no person to find openness and facts from.
Truth is this country's Parliament has become worse than awful worse than stupid and we are following here.
I want, truly to walk away from this thread, but my heart demands I do not leave the rubbish undefended.
I need a spell may take a while away from OLO.
But return only to read those posts that avoid even at 32 percent one in three Australians vote Labor first.
I wish the balanced and understanding posters from all sides of politics the very best see you in the future
Belly

Belly,

I am surprised that you are such a delicate flower, Considering that the barbs were aimed at the ALP and not yourself personally, and most of them have come from centre left newspapers.

Juliar had the choice of sticking to the principles for which the voters relied upon to vote, or cast her promises to the wind for convenience. Now she is ditching her support for the green bill as soon as the right wing power brokers that installed her raise a finger. In my opinion she completely lacks moral fibre.

As for yourself, you would appear to be the bitter old man, shamed by the party you love behaving in an abysmal fashion. Your unfailing bias against the coalition is without respite, and you cannot claim balance in any of these debates. This is only made worse by your complete inability to mount a reasoned defence of the ALP.

Do you know yourself why you support them, or is it something passed down to you from your parents like a religion?

It was never going to be an easy choice.
I liked OLO.
Have donated what I could to help.
And yes I know my views are not shared by many.
I tried, I really did, to stay away from conflicts.
But I can never bow to harsh, and what I truly think is unfair judgment of one side of politics.
Yes some, who get the blood running in me know very little about politics.
We are served by second rate leadership, on both sides, Abbott no less than Gillard.
After these years calling OLO home I think it is time to go.
I asked a question, got no answer ,the best answer, one day you not me, may find out who shadow minister is, his response to me here is one I doubt others would be allowed.
Tea party politics has this country by the throat.
I want no part of it.
I will find another forum, will not log out for a few days in case someone helps, but this is my last post here.
I leave the Field of verbal tennis to those who seem over whelming to think every thing Labor is evil.
Thank all for you company over the years I wish you all well
Belly, proud forever to stand for what I think is right.
PS
if SM is who I am thinking it would explain much
regards good by.

Something interesting to watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69KoyIYWSGs

Belly,

I've just noticed you've picked up stumps.
Sorry, can't allow that.

Whadaya mean letting Shadow Minister get under your skin like that? (You know he's an engineer with an MBA, don't you? - not a real dastardly politician.)

Anyway, he gets his jollies from posting anti-Labor rhetoric and being devastatingly clever by tweaking Julia's name (it keeps him off the streets).

So what do you say?
Well, you can't say anything unless you come back and balance the argument.

SM, I challenge you to give a link to the whole interview, not one line taken out of context.

Just as interesdting site.

http://www.alp.org.au/blogs/alp-blog/march-2011/dirty-tactics-on-carbon-pricing/

Poirot,

Leave Belly, he needs to go off for a sulk every now and again.

When Labor was ascendant he just loved to stick it to everyone, but now that his beloved ALP is in the toilet federally and in just about every state he has no where to go.

AS far as the "other countries" that are introducing limited ETSs, there is a particular hypocrisy about this. In Europe, the ETS is limited mostly to generation, and compensated by the huge import of nuclear generated power. The same goes for the states in the US.

Australia has no viable alternatives, there is no nuclear, and a carbon tax will either simply increase prices or force business off shore.

Gday all, had no intention of ever coming back a man who constantly uses confrontation and insults bought me back.
Two posts from you here SHADOW MINISTER are in my view provocative, needlessly so.
I rest on my record here, condemning my party federally and state.
You have just your rudeness to rest on, as in Flo's post you selectively quote half a statement.
Here are my views here in OLO if you like me think climate change is taking place, if you too think the fact we have trebled the worlds population in just two century's, it having taken millions to get to the first 2 billion.
If you see we will again double it in 50 years you can see why some think humanity is the reason for climate change.
And know also, some who decry our right to think in our own way have no knowledge or understanding at all.
I left because I fear my self, I regard honor above all else, I find it hard to not tell you shadow minister how I think of you.
I will reduce my posts, try to stay away from conflicts but not ever back down to bullying.
I truly, honestly, believe, my Federal team is in office ONLY because Abbott is worse.
Labor must lift its game Gillard needs to be reminded those yanks are not on our electoral roll, none can vote for her, we rebuild only after her.

Hiya Belly,

I have to agree with you that Gillard's lot is only there because Abbott is second rate - the Howard era's fault for not paying more attention to succession (other than Costello).

Anyway, this is the most uninspiring bunch of pollies I've seen for a while - wonder when things will improve.

Those who like me think Labor best serves their interests should look closer at my criticisms of my party.
I and Australia got a stunning smack in the face at Rudd's replacement.
We never knew just how bad things got within our party.
Look at the facts.
The impending decimation of NSW ALP will be a positive.
Once the trash can is emptied, and it will be, a big anchor to Labor gos too.
I am aware some are baffled by my dislike of Gillard.
It has always been there.
I said she, from the left, would never lead our party.
I said on her first night in power here in OLO I would never trust her.
But I also said she would govern well, she has not, and can not.
My fellow travelers in the anti tea party side of politics should re think.
Blind loyalty is pure stupidity,excepting poor performance because it comes from your team is crippling my country.
After Gillard, IF we put value on good policy's and accountability, Labor will prosper.
IF we become bogged down in first lady Prime Minister lets be happy but blind we give government away,, for at least a decade
I see, maybe I am wrong,a refusal to even consider the in my view fact, both sides need to get out of the slander and bun fight way of conducting business and think first of our country.

I would like to say to some fine women posters here this.
Be assured Gillard did play a roll in Rudd's frozen inability to get things done.
Conservative charges that she told Rudd not to go with an ETS are in all probability true.
She did stand, Australian Labor Party deputy Prime Minister! against pension increases.
She has become what she challenged Rudd for, trying to control open policy debate in government.
She is not a film star, we should not judge her on her off shore love in it is her task to be governing us,I felt no different than when Howard crawled his way up the steps of congress in the USA.
Repelled!
Let each of us ask this, can we debate any subject, climate change poltics health any thing, AND UNDERSTAND all views have value, that it is a right to say what you think?
Watch closely, do please,threads on such subjects, some think only they have such rights.
I think talking climate change here is a wasted effort, while I have no doubt as Abbott too does we are bringing it about , some who base thoughts and opinions on politics not science will only insult those who think differently.
The ALP will not forever have Abbott to rely on, we must return to standing on our own feet and policy's, if we can not do that? we should not be in government.
But rest easy,Gillard and Abbott are not hanging around much longer, my country will be better for it.

oh belly i will miss your innocence
[ok passion]

juliar got in by clever lawyer moves
[mate both parties are run by lawyers]
recall when that clever lawyer move
got rid of gough..[cough cough]

the thing is julia has her orders
bring in the new carbon traitering tax
then limp off the batle field

then combe will get his orders
then the next then the next
[thery run both parties old mate]
they run al the systems

heck look at gadafee
or that north korean dictraiter
recall pol pot..the saudie princes
mate the rot began at the head long ago

recall ceaser..he was killed by the bankers
[they didnt like him issuing his own debt free money]
the same reason john kennedy got his..

[he was silly enough to sign pres order 11,110]..
so the cia..[who run the drug scam]..got the marfia to do the job

only the good guys..get killed mate
[ever noticed that?]

think if gouigh had been allowed to finnish what he began
he was sacked because he too wanted funds..not obligated to repay at intrest..to the bankers..[the faceless money men]

i have tried to keep it simple
but who ever leads us
is disposable

what howard began
rudd tried to continue
then juliar picked it up

if juliar dont scucced..then phony tony gets the chop
and turncoat turnbull finnishes the job

the current job is to trade carbon credits
like a commodity..to tax the people direct
at the going market rate..

[set at whatever the market will pay]
the bankers tax us direct

its time we took back the mint
let govt print [coin] its own legal tender...AGAIN

and stopped begging bankers for money
and paying market intrest rates to bankers
for govt spending ..its OWN money

The big polluters are always going to be against a tax on pollution SM. So what ?.
Even if only 25% support a carbon tax as you claim, that would be only on the basis of them paying nothing more than they are now,
and that the tax be passed on to the taxpayer.

The true courage of our leadership today for Australia, will be be that we make the polluters pay, in order that we achieve the goal of reducing our carbon footprint, and thereby encourage more environmentally friendly solutions to meeting our immediate and future requirements.

I can't see that there is anything wrong with this, (even if climate science seems a little tilted to some people), that we as the dominant species should naturally endeavour to co-exist with our planet in the most sustainable way possible.

The consumer as well, must be accepting of the fact that they also, must do their bit,
by reducing our individual footprints and paying the price for our own behaviour.

Whether the PM is male, female, black, blue or brindle, it will take courage to get this ball rolling.
I'll be voting for whomever shows the most bottle in favour of a sustainable future for us all.

recall in govt there is allways the one who is cool
and the one who is the fool[think howard and beastly]

or the nsw liberal who is so silent
and will get in by saying/doing nothing

its how you plkay the game
just like with cricket or footy
the game is won or lost by the selecters

sel;ect who runs
you seklect who plays out the next part of the game

here is a good game going down in usa
a govener trying to remove the right to bargain collectivly
[i have posted previous links on this tussel]

Bank that funded Walker,..[that govener
hating collective bargaining]..now Closed

Firefighters in Wisconsin
marched to the M&I bank earlier today in Madison
and withdrew their money. In total they took an estimated $192,000.

They asked others to follow their lead.
Apparently others did.

Just updated:

A call to M&I's Capitol Square branch
confirms the bank is closed for the rest of the day.

This is how you protest.
http://lonestarwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/03/wisconsin-protesters-target-bank-that.html

Webmaster's Commentary:
Shut down the system by any means possible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQwsyF4dxIM

Read more: WHAT REALLY HAPPENED
The History The Government HOPES You Never Learn! http://whatreallyhappened.com/#ixzz1GWJbSuOw

http://www.redesign.rumormiller.com/story.php?title=congressman-warns-college-students-are-terrorists-1

http://dailybail.com/home/the-165b-bank-bailout-that-will-never-be-paid-back.html

http://uruknet.com/?p=m75817&hd=&size=1&l=e

Groundbreaking New UN Report on How to Feed the World's Hungry: Ditch Corporate-Controlled Agriculture

http://www.activistpost.com/2011/03/groundbreaking-new-un-report-on-how-to.html

Read more: WHAT REALLY HAPPENED
The History The Government HOPES You Never Learn! http://whatreallyhappened.com

The Greens are trying to promote this image of "the big polluters" being these fat cats emitting CO2 and rubbing their hands over a pile of money.

The generators are simply converting fossil fuel energy to electricity, and matching their output to the demand of the consumers, who are households and businesses. They will simply pass the costs of generation on to consumers. The consumers are the ones that will have to bear the cost and hopefully consume less power.

The house holds are indirectly the polluters and if shielded from electricity costs are not going to change their behaviour.

The brown coal power stations have had their capital paid for long ago, and newer less polluting stations (using more expensive fuel) would need a huge carbon tax to make them competitive.

Finally, the households while keen to cut emissions are not keen to be the only ones in the world making sacrifices.

the landline program, reported on the greenhouse polutant nitrous oxide[300 times worse than co2]

it might be on this link
http://www.abc.net.au/landline/content/2010/s3162720.htm

if not it will be on this one
http://www.abc.net.au/landline/content/2010/s3162717.htm

anyhow about one third of all nitrogen applied to farms gets turned into nitrous oxide..[300 times worse per part than one part of co2]

there followed this report
with a guy who talked sense re carbon tax etc

he revealed some scary info..scary as in
it costs 20 trillion to remove .0001 percent of co2
so clearly taxing it ..is of no use whatsoever

thus the tax is a fraud..a clear scam

he said we would be bettter off
putting our money into research..
to find alternatives..

this would require l;ess than we are wasting on solar scams
and the solar hotwater subsidies..that do little or nothing

only needing of arround a billion per year

this link links to part one
also interesting
http://www.abc.net.au/landline/content/2010/s3156370.htm

these links deserve their own topic

Thinker 2 ok I agree, but lets not forget the hip pocket nerve.
When we spoke of an ETS ,and thought the west would get one too, far less did not agree it was a good idea.
FEW Australians get involved in understanding the issue.
Gillard seems to think she has us under control, it was a miserable failure from her, leaving the door open for Abbott's fear campaign not to have her plan on the table.
Now understand, we must tell those uninformed in every detail what is proposed and why.
Yes if we put this tax on our carbon we do little to reduce the worlds out put.
We however cut the emissions of one of the worlds worst, by head of population emitters, Australia.
If our ONLY ACT,was too introduce Nuclear power here, we would reduce our carbon footprint by many times what all other actions will do.
We are not Japan, not in earthquake zone and not using 1970,s technology's.
Solar, OUG without receiving the too good 60 cents per unit I can wipe my power bills completely using solar and pay the total costs to me back in 3 years.
The question about lies and tax is secondary, is Abbott's idea going to cost tax payers more or less will it work, and most important is climate change science true?
In the background ABC news 24, that is 6 hours news repeated 4 times , Abbott is raving and ranting yet again, this time about boat people.
If he had an answer if in government it would be ok, but his side of politics like mine are weary of little red riding hood and her big bad wolf.
Sorry but it needs saying, Greens are more dangerous to Labor than conservatives under Abbott.
And a close look will confirm they at best can spoil but never rule this country, with 15% support those against them are 85% they feed conservatives.
Labor must not do a conservative, take the party's directions and politics as Abbott has done with one nation.

you are not alone in loving a feedin tarrif
of 60 cents..on top of getting a freegift
subsidy of 5 grand worth of solar cells..

yes its a great lurk
but mate hetre is the deal
what would happen if we all put in for it?

is it fair those too poor
to put up two grand to get in on the scam
should HAVE TO ...PAY FOR YOUR POWER BILLS

i couldnt live with the guilt mate
it just seemed something was wrong with a deal
that sounds too good to be true

where does the 5 grand come from
from govt taxing workers

where does the 60 cents come from
from old pensioners barely surviving on cat food
living in the dark..unable to run even a fan when its hot

here in qld its only 40 cents
[ok 50 cents if your an origen customer]
nsw stopped theirs..[as all govts should

isnt it enough you got 5000 worth
of gifts just getting the solar
you also want free power for life

some would say what cheek[but not me..i just couldnt handle the guilt]

and at night you get free power
from the mugs paying for everything
paying for the lines and the power
you get for free

and..[it still comes from coal]
so there is extra guilt

but some love money..so much
they get money..even in being greedy and bludging..
[free beer..sorry power]..

off their mates
straight from their mates pocketts

I hope the unfolding nuclear disaster in Japan will waken the pro nuclear group here to the folly that nuclear power is. I think not.
Good to see Labor is in bed with the Conservatives the so called 85%. Labor and their supporters want to stop blaming the Greens for there down fall and start looking within. Federally Labor are a bunch of misfits and at the State level borderline criminal!
As I said to a Greens Senator on Friday night "If you ever deliver a speech like the sycophantic Gillard delivered to the US Congress I'll dis-own the party."
Time is running out wake up!

Paul I do not intend to insult you or annoy you.
in my 66th year, I suspect you are much younger.
I too was once a very active left supporter.
Even, as was the fashion Communist for a short period of my youth.
Then Socialist time has told me some truths.
That 85%, swinging voters are said to be 12%.
But say 85% of us know who we will vote for the day after the last election, fixed on greens will vote green Labor/Liberal .
Some will turn half way in to their life, but still know years ahead of an election who gets their vote.
The 15% will be the ones who make our government, not you or me

In NSW Saturday after the next, Labor will be thrashed and trashed, no better chance ever existed for greens to make an impression.
Are you prepared to put a number to your total vote?
Not giving preferences to Labor will hurt you, let the unsure see Greens are not Labor friendly, just using us.
My thoughts are if only average Aussie understood we would have an ETS now, in place and working, if the greens had voted for it.
They in fact wanted much more pain for this country more tax , my party must not become the path to power for yours.
Labor won government in 1983 by moving to the voters not away from its roots ,our future is death or independence from the greens radicalism.
OUG you did not read my post, without the 60 cents I can buy enough solar to power my home.
And repay my costs in three years, by not paying $2.000 a year power bills governments give billions in subsidy's to the rich why not solar power for the poor?
Nuclear energy is our future.
How Paul, like you bloke but just how can you compare Japans system its poor fuel out dated and risky system and its earth quake zone with us?
Is it not true your team says using coal must stop, do we burn wood then?

Paul,

With regards the Nuclear reactors, of the tens of thousand killed by the earth quake and Tsunami, how many deaths are attributed to the nuclear reactors?

These reactors from the 70s are not built to modern codes, but are still far safer than the Chernobyl reactors. Even if a full melt down does occur, the containment vessels are likely to limit the emission of radiation to a minuscule fraction of that from the Chernobyl disaster.

The worst case scenario has happened, a monster earthquake, followed by a tsunami destroying the back up systems, and still no apocalypse.

ok belly
we seem to have a hard time explaining things
and i have a hard time reading things..[like this]
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1350811/In-China-true-cost-Britains-clean-green-wind-power-experiment-Pollution-disastrous-scale.html

it would be nice if there was an easy solution
[but mate there isnt]each side has their own form of blindness

i dont mind the nuke option
we dont need to go the way of the bad nuke option
[there are other nuke options that dont go into meltdowns]
nor make bomb material..[but like everything else..the worst option 'won'..the nuke race]

just as the worst options ..won this time
with solar and wind

mate my electricty bill is under 60 bucks..[240 a year]
an invester could put solar on my roof and get a return[for 20/30 years]..thats how long they will last..[coal fired stations last longer]..lol

there are so many options

[like browns gas]..HH0..
that implodes...not explodes
it sucks the piston up instead of pushing it down
[it costs under 100 bucks to make]and costs nothing to run

all you need do to run an internal combustion moter with it
is advance the timing 25 degrees...so it implodes on the upstroke..not the down-stroke..

but mate no more petrol bills
[no more big money to the petro chemical monoploy]

electicity can also be made from generators
driven by magnetic attraction alone..but no coal needed
[no coal proffits to the coal miners lobby]

there are plenty of cures that cost near nothing
if only govt was serving the people
[we all would get energy for free]

but not even a labour or greenie party will do it
think on why they wont..[who are they really serving?]
not the people..get it?

because in this world[satans realm..
only the bad idea wins...

[everytime]

i too have studied poli-tricks
and yes 85 percent are rusted onto their party for good or bad
but the powers that be know this

thus use the numbers to take over other parties
i first saw this when the nationals took over the labour party
[and got rid of tom burns and bill hayden]

since then i have seen it with the greens
and the hemp party..[if only to get in bad policy]

it dosnt even restrict itself to political parties
lets face it any organised group can rule the roost
like say farmers taking over the nats

or unions taking over labour
or even creating their own party

or creating a new party like one nation etc

any group can do this
thus labour banned all groups
insurance agencies trippled things like public liability
so many organised groups simply shut down..lets face it things like the rsl or lions..apex or the masons

or any group with like minds
[like solar or insulation mob..
can make their play at any party level]..

and if all else fails can use the weight of lobby[or media]
or just money [its all just too easy]

THATS WHY i hate em all..!

why ya think sports-clubs get great funding
so they can man the booths ..at voting time
or so polititions ..can get at the kids

Japan has for a very long time been criticized for risk taking with its Nuclear power stations.
As has been said, it took a near record earth quake, in fact the resulting huge tsunami to do harm.
No deaths yet, may not be any Australia will build them India and China have, I believe, about 70 between them.
Coal, not saying we should not use or sell it, is the biggest emitter I know of.
I have far more faith OUG in politicians than you.
While we are poorly served now I see no plots .
Of interest, in this thread a few posts up I reported Tony Abbott in the last few days, said he agreed with the science of climate change.
Was it yesterday? in WA he said the science is unproved.
Who was talking when, what thought was from a written speech, liar is a word Tony should avoid.

Well thread has ran its race, we are no no closer to knowing, or is it admitting? if Julia knowingly lied.
She however as most know, is not my idea of a leader.
Sorry but in my view she never lied.
She never however should be in this Parliament without a mop and bucket in her hand.
She should have taken Tony Abbott on backed down from her anti ETS stance under Rudd.
Went for an ETS.
I know understand, both party's grovelled to get power.
OH yes Abbott too,but a stance against the greens must take place, Gillard will try just this,but she would skinny dip in the Bondi sewage outlet to win, to keep the inevitable knife still wet with Rudd's blood landing in her back, it will come however.
We live maybe in interesting times,but we also live in times that see us drift away from the Westminster system of accountability.
Politicians, all of them, should get out in to the shopping centers, pubs, sporting events, not announce who they are and hear and see the seeds they have sown.
Most Australians [ wrongly in my view] think they all are lier's, do not care about anything but point scoring and have no intent commit to running this country not winning rather child like confrontational battles.

ju-liar said i have no problem calling it a tax
so a tax it is...

[and nothing the queen of jack s
says can change that the juliar joker says]

she [the joke er] also said on qanda
if your road home gets 'blocked'
you find another way home..

clearly when she was blocked by m/rabbit
she saw the road was blocked

and saw ...a way 'home'
by stating trickey words
[there WILL be no carbon tax in any govt i lead}

KNOWING AL THE TIME
[by virtue of poll numbers ..indicating a hung govt
{{there has to be a better word]]

she saw a way home
KNOWING she could quickly get the lie over
and install ..NOT ONLY A NEW BIG TAX
but also carbon traitering

wow talk about a back flipper
from the red head in the usa warmonger bed
usa's friend down under..[under all the spin and lies]

i wouldnt accept your vote
even if i was calling for votes bellies
you run hot and cold..have you been checked for bi-polar old boy?

you love to call it quits
we do know juliar lied

i agree with the moppet
with a buckett simiulie

and the not so skinny
dip in a sewrage-outfall
in bondi
..line

as well

SHE DID TRY to fight the abbot spin
but couldnt ..so said the fatal words in the end
[of the election no less]..

and seems she will get her cake[carbon tax]
and trading carbon credits as well...

liars shouldnt be so well rewarded

[you should own a pub..
you call time.. so often]

ALL in
poli-tic's

LIE

Redistribution of income is what governments are about. Nothing new.

The Opposition and their ilk move it from the lower income earners to bosses and the wealthy. Labor comes in and moves it back again. I do not believe that is what are price on carbon is about.

I cannot see any government wanting to get their hands dirty unless there is a genuine belief that not to do so, would not be responsible.

Labor could have walked away from dealing with climate change but they decided not to. Life would be easier for PM Gillard if she took the easy path and catered to those who believe in climate change with a few well thought out sweeteners, such as solar on the roofs, etc.

Labor is the most effective money reducing agent known to man.

They increase taxes, borrow money, rack up debt and leave very little to show for it. The liberals have to come in and clean up the mess with unpopular spending cuts.

day Flo, of those three posts I understand yours the most.
But disagree with your every word.
Gillard,once a very leftist Lawyer and factional member.
Is not acting on carbon for cash, or redistribution.
She holds none of the old Labor thoughts and ideas,some are better buried in any case.
You do not like my opinion she is gone, yet she is.
Look deeply, see what Gillard should be telling every one, know it is true.
But understand she did not have the guts to say it.
Abbott did know, before the election, it was ALP policy to bring in an ETS.
Not tax ETS Abbott ran a big new tax fear campaign election.
Gillard,loaded down with Rudd's leaks, try ed to win votes by saying she would never bring in a tax on carbon.
She meant it, never wanted one, never intended to have one.
Then came the 17 days after the hung Parliament.
The wheeling and dealing, the need for a single green in the lower house to be part of her government.
During that time independents too had wishes, one of those for two of them was a closer look at carbon.
No lie, she governed or went back to an election she would not win.
Govern or guts?
Continued.

I will be in trouble here, so be it.
I am far closer to SOME in the greens than any conservative.
But in truth Labor just must fight them on almost every issue.
Without the GREENS we would have a carbon price,the best one an ETS now.
Know, no doubt exists, 15% is their current vote but it may well be at its peak now, and we must not let our governments bend to them, it is a death sentence for the ALP.
No offense taken SM no agreement either.
Look Flo for Gillard to take on the greens she will ,but too late.
Without the ALP and an intransigent Abbott the greens would have no power nore should they.
We can if we want deal with issues without being black mailed and if controlling the radicalism of the greens is not number one on our must do list I know nothing.
Who remembers the greens stopped an ETS!

What has happen to Labor and their supporters. They seem to have turned into conservative wolves in socialist clothing. Where is the radicalism of the old Labor Party? More concerned with the economy than people. Yes I'm a member of the Greens, when you conservatives call me radical I know I'm on the right path. Without us 'radicals' there never will be change. Those that don't have a voice will never have one, there never will be true social justice without us 'radicals', 'watermelons' what every you want to call us.

Paul 1405 I take it for granted you refer to me.
Willing to agree with you too, we are no longer a radical party.
No green party would exist if we did not have our refugees kick starting the greens because they wrongly think as you do.
And no government other than a conservative one would EVER RULE Australia.
Let us look at the radicalism of the ALP why it was needed and why it no longer is salable to voters.
Post ww2 we had won many better conditions welfare child endowment much more fought for and won by Labor, conservatives fought us every step of the way.
Menzies came along, he filled the wishes of middle Australia, not me but he held that ground.
A confused and fragmented ALP even having Communists in its ranks helped Ming[ Menzies] keep us in opposition for 23 long years.
Our savior? the big bloke came along we sang its time and watched great good and great stupidity take place.
Loony leftists did great harm, monkey nuts was the nick name of a back street money lender , even after Whitlam said no further dealing with him we continued.
On 11/11/1975 I saw a revolution coming, waited for it , it never came.
Australians ,very much like right now, feared Labors radicalism, believed the lies in partisan media, and ALP voters through us out.
Hawk returned us to government and did a better job in government than our last attempt.
Governing is maths, pure maths.
Australia no longer looks to the lights on the hill no longer thinks of them and us.
Be warned radicalism will always be a minority view.
Continued.

Paul let us get down to the nitty gritty.
Will you concede conservative voters will not vote green? are opposed to radicalism?
As you show dislike for my type of ALP voter can we say most of us are never again going to vote green?
I want an ETS your group stopped us getting it, radical or silly?
I dislike every thing about Bob Brown,do I have a right to my view?
I wear my union shirts still, bought and paid for 30, still happy to be a member,now every weekend I walk in conservative heartland in one.
Get insulted by even ALP voters BECAUSE the community is weary of greens and a perceived link with the ALP.
If your over all percentage on election day is 15% from where will your next 5% come.
Do you see radicalism increasing?
I see a future that see greens cripple Labor, that even poor quality leaders like Abbott win election after election because the average Joe and Joan are sick of the greens.
A time when indeed radicalism keeps Labor out of power and conservatives in, greens radicalism.
Gillard told it as it is today but is a pasty imitation of a leader.
Paul sorry but for every green voter at least two are totally and forever against you, true honest fact, probably understated.
5 is closer to truth.

Of interest to me recently Belly; the media has been pushing the line that green voters are 1/3 disaffected Labor voters. It seems all apparent to me, that at least another 1/3 would also be disaffected Liberal voters. People who are alienated or embarrassed by their current leaders drawing the race card. Or being development at any cost including environmental considerations. Curtailing corporate power is not such a radical concept even in the Labor Party we see today.

It's not such a radical idea at all, seem sort of sensible to me.

I think there is a growing middle ground of people who want genuine climate action.
People who want more thought put into the future of their descendants. More awareness of whom it actually is, that controls our destiny and how much power can be afforded to them wisely, given the obligation we have in understanding these things, when we do get the opportunity to vote in elections.

Whom is it that represents the greater good, is now the hardest to define,
since I have been following Australian Federal politics.
It's Tweedle dum ( and thats really dumb) in Tony Abbott and Co , and Tweedle dee
(the lesser of 2 evils, only just), to choose in the major parties.

The only thing you could truly say with some confidence today Belly is, that this is a truly lack lustre period in Oz politics.
The whole thing could turn to absolute shite, either way.

Well written well put and I agree with every word.
But not the idea ex Liberals in those numbers hide within the greens.
Gillard, and looking back Rudd let this country down,just what did/does the ALP stand for?
Abbott? he has stolen the good intentions of his party's founders.
We are swimming in it, yet hope exists.
NSW will see Labor voters not hide in greens country, but vote independents or even conservatives first,watch.
Gillard is following my prediction, getting distance between her and greens, on the surface.
Her poling may well rise but she must go Labor must move on from Rudd/Gillards Circus, action not acting please.
I know I have been harsh on the greens.
Have handed out HTV for them, but they are now, forever my party's enemy.
Gillard got it right,they are unable to bend ,to bargain, to be flexible,we should have an ETS.
Test me if we could ask one question of every voter.
Who do you distrust the most.
It would not be possible for Labor or Liberal to have as many who distrust them as who vote for them.
And more than unlikely that more than twice the green vote do not trust or like them.
Radicalism ok if you have the people with you, we must except no party ever will have everyone.
Greens need the ALP or they have nothing, conservatives should join in and isolate them, the future depends on it.
Show me how a minority gets power without riding on the back of a majority.

Belly,
To answer your questions. Conservatives will not vote Green? True
Conservatives oppose radicalism? True. A conservative is nothing more than a person who wants to maintain their position of power and privilege, real or perceived.
ALP voter who votes Green today will never again vote Green? No. You assume that societies status quo will remain. The distribution of wealth, control of decision making, rights of the individual etc will always remain the way they are today, to think that one would be living in a 'Fools Paradise'.
I want ETS ALP way you oppose, radical or silly? radical. Labor offered little in their ETS, Greens did not support.
Belly has a right to his view? Yes totally agree.
A couple of questions for you. Do you want your party to be radical?
Who in society does the ALP represent?

Interesting questions Paul.
Well while conservatives slant toward those with money, they won power by appealing to Labor voters.
I want Labor to first and most importantly be in government, not long term opposition.
We are radical, when needed, not on every issue.
To win an election we need more, not just a reliance on Conservatives having lost the plot.
We are long odds against being returned to office right now.
Mate you can not avoid it, only one Nation had more who distrusted them than voted for them.
Your question was wrong, the one, in return I ask you this, do you think more voters are radical than not, and to supplement do you think radicalism is likely to grow.
For Australia's sake both Labor and Liberal need change, leadership, direction, and policy discussion not just thrown out the door for us to fight over.
Like it or not,this very day endangers the government.
Riots on Christmas Island, inability to stop the boats, and not returning every rioter to country of origin tonight is hurting the ALP.
And the flea on its back some think is driving our failures the greens.
Tell me I am wrong, voters do not trust the government on this issue.
Tell me defending our team in any way changes voter intentions.
A minority controlling the senate is evidence we no longer need upper houses, hows that for radical?

Paul it seems I am not going to get my answers.
Yet while I understand your position, once thought as you do, nearly, my ideas are not treachery.
I lived in every one of those 23 years Labor had property rights on the opposition bench's.
I danced in the street as the big fella had us singing its time.
I cringed as some great deeds went under pile of rubbish, generated by maverick left.
Bob came along, the ever Bodgy no matter his hair color,he was both a massive ego, an opportunist ,who waited till both combative sides wanted resolution and won his spurs for very little.
But FAR better than his predecessor
On my very first ever paid job I earned in todays money one dollar,for a hard long 12 hour day.
Dad bought nearly 13 dollars a fortnight home.
We needed the light on the hill to dream on.
Work choices every type of pain, for workers, lives in the heart of conservative Australia.
Only by constant accountability, improvement,and modernization can the ALP achieve victory at the polls.
Do you see the promise Rudd made?
The resemblance between him and 1975?
Even the media is no different manufacturing storys or ignoring the wrongs on the other side.
continues.

While we do get independent candidates like Oakshot, Windsor, Haddon, a very worth while candidate in the coming NSW upper house.
While they win both popular vote and support we know it can be unhelpful.
They like the greens,inherit far too much power for the amount of votes they get.
See the HATE aimed at them, understand these same people if in coalition with the conservative coalition would be championed in the Parliament and media.
ALP must fight on its own the failures of media to highlight in the screaming headlines our faults generate, Abbott's history of untruths.
It would be a lie, to avoid the radicalism of the greens, a union that every day,in every action defames the movement,has latched on to your party.
Its proud boast? see its web page! Australia's only radical union.
Radical converts to pure criminal in my view.
Greens ARE NOT CONSERVATIONISTS ask middle Australia what they think.
IF labor is to recover it must first confront your leader and your party, just maybe this Saturday coming is a water shed, how will the Greens go in NSW?
We will see.
A party can have all views but must act for most or fall.

A minority controlling the senate is evidence we no longer need upper houses, hows that for radical?

A minority controlling the parliament is evidence we no longer need a parliament hows that for radical?

Is your line 'If we don't have control then we don't need it.'
I'm with you on one point we don't need upper houses so called 'houses of review' They are a hang over from the times when those who controlled society said "We'll give them their democracy but we'll make sure we have the final say." By nature upper houses still tend to be conservative. Labor is only in power thanks to 1,600,000 Green voters, don't forget that.

Paul I get no joy in the hurt I see in your post.
I hardly think our Senate can be compared with the house of Lords.
As you would know Queensland a very Long time ago got rid of its upper house.
And you are aware why I believe it worth while.
Upper houses see people like rev Fred Nile, and a hand full of such get power.
And from a vote of about 12% not 15, the greens get the balance of power.
Without upper houses your power base would be one federal lower house member, I can live with that, but how many first preferences did he win?
Labor is in power because it got the greens on side and independents, one of whom won his seat from third in first preference votes.
Should 85% of those who voted last time, be told by those represented by 15% of the vote, to except your party's views?
Labor and Liberal are looking drastically bad.
But my party, in my view best of a bad bunch[ not in NSW] will be in opposition for some time, if we let the pup on our back wag our tail.
Brown needs to learn to contribute, to deal, to hear more than his own sides thoughts and ideas,he is no better use to his party without that than Abbott to his.