*You cast about as wildly and as unsuccessfully as anyone might for differences to explain apparent anomalies in gun associated crime between different countries.*

So you claim, Cornflower. In this case it just so happens that
I know a great deal about the situation in Switzerland and why
things are as they are. I've also lived long enough in outback
Australia, to know about how the gun laws affected people right
here. You on the other hand, argue from a position of ignorance.
I can't help that.

The cost of gun registries is paid for by people who own guns, in
terms of fees for licences etc.

You, for whatever reason that you have not yet explained, clearly
have a bee in your bonnet about gun laws, unlike most Australians.
Most Australians are thankful, that despite rising drug use,
rising gangs, rising violent crimes in general, rising adoption of
US culture, our incidents with guns stay remarkably low.

Most of us think that is great news. Apart from the gun lobby of
course

Yabby,

Heh, heh, you only claim knowledge of the gun laws. Referring back to one of the anecdotes you tender in lieu of facts, would you care to explain for instance how Howard's gun buy-back "cleaned up" the whole lot of "country people" who in your "dark days" made a habit of getting drunk and "shooting off the back of utes"?

While you are at it you might care to explain why the laws at that time did not provide effective remedies? I can tell you straight that if such behaviour was seen in your lifetime and a complaint was made to police the offenders would have have had their firearms confiscated on the spot and they would been fronting a court.

Yabby, "The cost of gun registries is paid for by people who own guns, in terms of fees for licences etc."

So how does that justify the lack of results and the waste of trained police in weapons branches?

Yabby, "despite rising drug use, rising gangs, rising violent crimes in general, rising adoption of US culture, our incidents with guns stay remarkably low"

The numbers prove gun crime was always low and on a steady decline prior to and post Howard. In fact the criminals won, the public was disarmed, Howard's laws did not affect them and the police had more busywork to keep them off the street. Criminals do not apply for licences, buy their guns from reputable dealers, register their guns and they do carry them, regardless.

It is significant that Howard and other senior politicians of note and on both sides of the House, federal and State, were never keen on approving, funding or continuing the federal-state cooperative police teams that have been so effective from time to time in infiltrating organised crime and bringing prosecutions. So much for the concern about violence, drugs and crime. 'Gun control' is a diversion, attacking violence must be the goal.

Heh heh twists and turns

But no substitute for an

Honest argument

*Heh, heh, you only claim knowledge of the gun laws*

Nope Cornflower, I can claim a pretty good understanding of the
situation in Switzerland and why the Swiss argument, as parroted
out again and again by the gun lobby, is bollocks.

When the laws were tightened up, there were a whole lot of people
who decided that they wern't going to invest in a gun safe, then
another safe for bullets etc. They handed them in. We stopped
having assault rifles sold in places like Tasmania, another good
thing.

The weapons branch do indeed have a role to play. They have to
make the final decision, about who can have a gun, if it is really
required etc. You need a really good reason if you need a gun with
a 10 shot magazine. Records are checked on your background. All
done by the weapons branch. If guns are stolen, computer databases
can show if they are being smuggled in or were stolen. All valuable
police information. I am the first to knock Govt waste, but this
time you are targeting the wrong place.

*In fact the criminals won, the public was disarmed*

Rubbish. The criminals could no longer go to Tassie or Qld and
buy an assault rifle or pistol and smuggle it into WA. It was
simply too firgging easy before. If they are selling pistols
at your pub, I hope you have reported it and they are doing something
about it.

* and they do carry them, regardless.*

Yes they do and police keep raiding them, searching them and confiscating more guns. Its endless. Last year they destroyed
something like 120 meth labs in WA. I am sure that they found lots
of guns too. Next year there will no doubt be more meths labs, they
will shut them down and arrest those who run them.

That does not mean that Cornflower needs a pistol in her pocket
when she goes shopping at Coles, as she might do if she lived in
the US.

Yabby, "there were a whole lot of people who decided that they wern't going to invest in a gun safe, then another safe for bullets etc."

You are not familiar with the regulations and winging it. A safe is not required for ammunition, just a simple lockable container. It is unlikely that licensed gun owners would have sold their firearms over a cheap gun safe ($150) and a lockable box ($10). Most would have already made provision.

There always were restrictions on what could be imported into Australia. That is the effective and efficient way to control the firearms types. I think it was Keating who pointed that out in an interview at the time.

This was another gem, "If guns are stolen, computer databases
can show if they are being smuggled in or were stolen." Fair dinkum, where do you get this stuff? Let me lead you again:

-It is only law-abiding, licensed owners who register guns.

-If a gun is stolen from a licensed owner he will report it because the registry doesn't know it is stolen unless told. Criminals do not source their guns by such theft and I have already given you the stats proving that.

-The next bit will surprise you too: criminals smuggling guns or buying them do not fill out the forms and pay the fees to register the damn things. Equally criminals are hardly likely to register a stolen gun. They are criminals after all.

Yabby, "The criminals could no longer go to Tassie or Qld and buy an assault rifle or pistol and smuggle it into WA."

Your story but automatic firearms were banned in mainland Australia before Howard was born. Concealable firearms were restricted, subject to special approval. What WA criminal needed to travel to get a gun?

Yabby, "If they are selling pistols at your pub"

A police example, entertainment venues are awash with drugs and guns are part of that scene. It is interesting that some of the people who are so opposed to illegal guns don't accept that it is their drug money that is importing them.

*It is unlikely that licensed gun owners would have sold their firearms over a cheap gun safe ($150)*

Unlikely according to whom? At the time, my gun safe cost around
400$ here in WA. Fact is lots of people in the community had guns
in the back of cupboards. The buyback was an ideal time to get rid
of them. Those with semi automatics and automatics had to hand
them in and go back to a single shot.

The assault rifles that Bryant had, were legal in Tasmania at the
time. They are no more so.

Stolen guns are indeed used by criminals. What do you think happens
to them? Police find them all the time, when they stop people for
drugs or other offences.

You are not much of a sleuth, Cornflower. If a gun turns up in a raid,
it clearly comes from somewhere. If it was stolen from a legitimate
owner, the police can track the owner. If the number is unknown to
the police, perhaps it was smuggled in. Through interpol today,
police can track where that gun went.

*criminals smuggling guns or buying them do not fill out the forms and pay the fees to register the damn things. Equally criminals are hardly likely to register a stolen gun. They are criminals after all*

Er we know that, Cornflower. But where I live we actually have police
going around removing guns from criminals all the time. If you don't
have that where you live, then perhaps your police there arn't much
chop or corrupt. So fix it.

*What WA criminal needed to travel to get a gun?*

WA has always had strict gun laws. At the time of the buyback, there
was plenty of evidence that crinimals were sourcing their guns from
other states, which did not have the same. Keating was correct.
Keep them all from coming into the country.

*entertainment venues are awash with drugs and guns are part of that scene*

If you know that Cornflower, then perhaps you'd better get those
police of yours to go and remove those guns.