RObert . I stand by my posts. I’ve been careful to say that your arguments were not reasonable rather than unreasonable. I didn’t want to infer stubbornness, unfairness or a lack of intellect. I only wanted to comment on the lack of logic in presenting two opposing pains for scrutiny. Inevitably I knew affected people would join the fray and I fail to see any logic in pitting the two against each other. I did get caught up in the discussion re: the two situations. However, I only wanted to show the futility of it. I steered clear of actually comparing the actual pain.

RObert: “’The carnage from rape is more conspicuous in society than false accusations.’ ” Probably because it is actually more prevalent. So what? Both are harmful.

I don’t subscribe to the idea that feminists have hoodwinked women into using rape as a tool. The thing is Aqvarivs used some pretty dodgy figures and generalisations to compare the carnage from false accusations to violent rape. In light of the article and the rape mentioned in it, his post was insensitive and negative politics at its worse.

I haven’t come across any reliable figures for false allegations. I don’t think that there is any feminists’ conspiracy there. Police are across this problem and researching it must be very difficult. The insensitivity to rape victims is becoming more prevalent in society and police are assisting to create a culture where women are safe. It doesn’t follow that false allegations are not considered a problem.

Onlyone. Your assertions about me are incorrect. While I respect your victim status, maybe people would listen to your cries if you stated your case in a positive manner instead of using it as part of a personal attack.

RObert. A while ago I said something re: your ex-wife.

“ RObert you hide behind that non-de-plume to perhaps lie about your ex-wife and manipulate OLO posters (using HRS et al’s logic). I wouldn’t be taking your word for it…” I am sorry for suggesting that you would lie about your experience with your ex-wife.

Ronnie, thanks for the apology. I do agree with a lot of your last two posts. I'm still of the view that the plight of the falsly acussed has been judged as less than that of the violently raped and I don't believe that is always the case. We may have to differ on our views on that.

You may notice that in the post you provided a link to, you and I both were being addressed. I disagree with much of the opposition to the original article although I am not convinced by the racism perspective that the author holds.

I'm undecided about the worth/harm balance of sharing personal experience on sites like this. While my experiences have been very mild compared to that of some I've found having a place to have my say has been valuable (and it's given friends some respite). The annonomity of this has allowed me to talk about stuff that I would not do in a public forum if my identity was attached. It's given me a sense that I'm doing something (although small) about what I consider some fairly significant issues.

I also tend to hold the view that is better for people to have an outlet than to feel silenced or shut down. The bit where they can find others willing to listen. I don't always know how to do my part in that well.

Thanks for the considered tone of those posts.

R0bert

Max, I'm struggling to work out how to respond to the debate you have become embroiled in. I think I understand where you are coming from but I think the loadings that go with that particular topic make it very difficult to discuss.

That type of argument has been used by those seeking to repress women for so long now that it is difficult to say what I think that you are trying to say without introducing loadings that you may not intend. I hope I'm being fair in that, my own views correspond more closely to Celivia's on this than to yours but I am trying to understand your POV.

Despite my own penchant for drifting off the topic at hand I'm also wondering why it seems so important on what should be a topic about comparisons between rape and false allegations of rape.

It seems that there are a host of other potential contributers to rape that we could discuss off topic but none really help to stop people disregarding the plight of those falsly accussed.

It is true that we each need to do our own risk assessment based on the circumstances we find ourselves in, it's also true that there are some sick individuals out there who we cannot readily plan for nor protect ourselves against with certainty.

Despite all that we each need to get on with our lives without letting the possibility of terror entering our lives cripple us.

R0bert

RObert,
I have had a wonderful response from Chris Veraart the Dutch lawyer who specialises in false rape accusations and author of the book I was talking about.

I sent him an email to ask if there were any plans for translation in English and he responded by saying that it is hard to translate such book because justice systems vary in different countries, ( a French translator has attempted to translate it but has pulled out because it's just too hard) but he said that he may consider it, perhaps omitting the legal side which only applies to The Netherlands, but concentrating on the plight of the falsely accused person, who often has not much chance to plea his innocense.

He asked if I know of an Australian publisher that would support such book and I was wondering if you have any ideas? Which publishers would specialise or publish books like this?

I am not sure how fluent this author's English is, I will ask him. Perhaps he will be interested or able to contribute to this discussion.

He is a very busy man (as well as practising law he also writes for the media and educates investigators) so we'd be very lucky to have his input.

RObert and Celivia. Celivia I have never wanted to stop RObert or anyone else from speaking out as you claimed. I don't know where you got that idea. I have even suggested that anti-feminists (or whatever they are - the limitations of language can be annoying) would be better to write their own positive articles rather than playing at negative politics on women's issues threads. By all means comment but not in that accusatory way.

There are different ways to achieve the same end. I just think that there is a time and place for everything. We must not get so caught up in our own position to the point that we start disregarding the feelings of those supposedly on the other side who have been hurt. I don’t mind a bit of rumble, tumble but there are limits.

RObert is usually (he is human) ready to engage in debate without projecting his anger onto others. I am not intending to prevent RObert in his quest to raise consciousness about things like false allegations.

RObert, I know that it is a popular opinion to "get it out" or risk repressing the anger and I agree but before coming onto these sites it is best that that anger be brought out professionally or it may be unfairly projected onto posters who mean no harm and even have similar concerns. The repression theory has never been proven; whereas experiments have proven that we can enhance our happiness in the ways I mentioned. Buddhist monks have actually completely altered which side of the brain is dominant. So sometimes it is best just to do something positive and engage in this type of thing when you are well and truly ready. I guess it's about balance.

Celivia: A direct comparison of the pain is offensive and it is a part of my right to speak up to let RObert know that as well. Even the suggestion kind of trivialises the pain of both groups. I wouldn’t waste my time with RObert if I thought he intended malice (except on the odd angry heated exchange).

That RObert has for various reasons experienced an unfair or inefficient system and has decided to bring out certain issues is admirable. I also know what its like (not to the extent of some others) to think that we live in a fair and just world ; where if something goes wrong the government has procedures and measures to ensure we are treated fairly. Then to realise that it is all media hype and political posturing - to have that illusion well and truly blown apart - to realise that you are all alone and nobody believes you because the machine has convinced everyone that we live in a fair and just world where everyone is treated fairly and with goodwill; the only danger is from terrorists and criminals. To have friends make suggestions like: "Why don't you see your local member, or go to the media etc?" When you've tried everything. Or see that disinterested look in their eye that says “Yeah! Sure what ever you say." They think that there is a solution or a way to secure a fair go already in place. If you don't get a just outcome it must because you are at fault.

I'm interested in mass psychology. I think the problem with false allegations and rape has more to do with how we are conditioned to think. Take a look at history. What is it that causes societal breakdown and religions to lose credibilty? It is when we start adhering to the idea that the immediate end justifies the means.

A rapist and a false accuser both fit this category. They’re not concerned with your happiness nor the ultimate good or the greater good. Why? But wait just about everyone (masses) thinks this way. And it is getting worse all the time. So if we can create a culture where means must be goods as well – then you are half way there.

Societies leaders are not adhering to Principles in their means to immediate ends which in turn undermines the authority of the ultimate end which is to preserve these Principles.