One of the article discussion threads has developed a sub thread around the impact of a false accusation of rape - is it as bad as being raped?

In my view that will vary from case to case, sometimes worse sometimes not. To often the plight of those falsly accused seems to be dismissed out of hand.

I found an exert from William Farrell's "The Myth of Male Power" on another discussion group and thought it worth posting to give one example of the type of harm done to an individual falsely accused. A US case but many of the same issues apply

http://www.collegeconfidential.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?68/6225
"When a woman says she is raped, it is important to listen, support her, believe her, and help make her make a transition back to a life of maximum trust. Every human being, when hurting, needs listening and love more than anything else - including having their problem solved.

When a man says he has been falsely accused of rape, he is also telling us he has been raped. He is being accused of being one of life's most despicable persons. Even if the accusation is made by an adolescent girl who acknowledges she's lying before there's a trial, a man's life can be ruined. As with Grover Gale.

A 13-year-old North Carolina girl accused Grover Gale II of raping her four times. By the time Grover spent 36 days in jail, he had lost his construction job, fallen into debt, couldn't pay his rent for his family at home, and was on the verge of divorce. Then the girl, whose name still didn't make the papers, admitted she made the whole thing up, saying she was just trying to get her 17-year-old boyfriend's attention." (Part 1 of the except - more to follow)

R0bert

Part 2 or the excert

"But when Grover returned from jail, his own son was afraid to hug him. Wherever he went in town, people pointed to him and called him names like "child molester" and "rapist." At the mall, someone spit on him. Although in debt, the family felt forced to move. They moved out of state to a small town where no one knew him. Two years later, the charges still plague him. He's still $15,000 in debt because of bail fees, trial costs, and back rent he's never been able to catch up on.

Grover has lost his life and his wife. He has been raped. Yet he cannot afford counseling and the state won't pay for him to be counseled. The psychologists themselves fear a liability suit: "If you treat him as a nonrapist and he later rapes, you can be sued for not treating him as a rapist - as a psychologist you supposedly should have known.

Once accused, no trial can erase the shadow that follows a man wherever he goes. Dr. William Kennedy Smith is still rarely referred to as "doctor." When he was accused of date rape, his residency in internal medicine at the University of New Mexico was put on hold. But after he was found not guilty, the university could not decide whether or not it should rescind the offer. The shadow followed him after the trial."

R0bert

Robert – that is a scary tale, I have every sympathy for Grover Gale II.

In practice Grover’s reputation was raped.

My own response would be to demand the girl face civil and criminal prosecution for false accusation and be forced to bear the consequences of her lies.

Grover’s community should also hang its head in shame, whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Perhaps it might be helpful to make a comparison if an account of the results of an actual physical rape is also considered here.

Lizzie, I tend to think that would have the reverse effect. I doubt that many believe that a violent rape is not harmful (I hope there are not many around who think like that).

My intent is not to deny the massive harm done by actual rapes but to address the harm done by those who would falsly accuse another of that crime.

There are people who appear to consider that a false accusation is not particularly serious.

Both rape and false accusations have lead to the suicide of the victim, and both have lead to the murder or the victim. Once you get to that point is there really any difference?

Those who use false accusations trivialise rape, they create a climate where genuine victims are treated with suspicion and they often destroy the lives of their victims (and the families of their victim).

Unless we have posters on here suggesting that rape itself is trivial then there is no need to prove otherwise.

R0bert

Both are obviously very serious problems, but I'm still struggling to understand your desire to compare them on some...badness...scale.

You cant go 'one is worse than the other' or 'they're as bad as each other' because every single case is a different story, and yields different levels of negative results.

So it seems like a pointless comparison to me.

Don't get me wrong, I just thought the question was an odd one asking for a comparison when both sides were not put forward. I totally agree that false accusations can damage someone for life and result in suicide and that safeguards should be put in place to protect the innocent.

Every man and woman in this country should read "the Myth of Male Power" by Warren Farrell as previously mentioned.
If it is not you accused of rape, it can be your brother, son,father or uncle.
There is never ANY justification for rape, but as a person who spent a lot of time sitting in criminal courts, the evidence can be very interesting.
The crime of Rape is NEVER about whether sexual intercourse took place...this can be easily proved. the question is ALWAYS about "consent".
Sometimes people can regret "consenting" when infidelity carries serious cosequences, such as divorce, or a "bad reputation"

Lizzie4, good point.

I've thought of the discussion as a take up of the subthread on the Newsworth Rape thread where it was suggested that a false accusation is not as bad as a rape. On it's own the question without both sides does look odd :(.

I've not seen much in the way of examples from Australia but Farrell in his book talking about US cases mentions incidents where a falsely accussed men have done jail time and when their accussers is eventually caught out the accusers get no penalty or community service.

One US military study found the rate of false accusations was at about 60%.

Farrell also talks about removing the social pressure to make false claims of rape, a teenage girl finding themselves pregnant would get support as a rape victim, possible comdemnation if she has just been experimenting with sex. Same deal for someone who has been having an affair or who contracts a sexual disease.

Somehow we need to protect the freedom to report genuine attacks and stop false claims - that may not be easy.

R0ber

Interesting topic, RObert.

I find ‘false accusations of rape’ a very serious crime. The false accusation, as you said, can stick to the victim for a lifetime.
The case of Grover is a very sad one.

There are probably no reliable statistics on the rate of false accusations, but I’ve read somewhere that they estimate it’s between 15 and 20%. Do you have other figures, RObert?
With figures like this, it is only understandable that the “victim’s” words are generally believed.
Still, every case should be scrutinised.

In the Grover case, I would like to see the woman at least pay for ALL of his financial losses- perhaps by deducting the money from her wages over time, from other income or from her tax returns. Why should he have to suffer financially while he is innocent?

Another thing that needs to change in cases of rape (false or not) is the publicity of the accused man. Why are his name or other details published before he’s even been convicted?
“Innocent till found guilty’ is obviously not the reality with falsely accused cases so it is a fair enough suggestion that a "rapist’s" details are to be protected.

I would like to think that the police who are dealing with rape incidents should be especially trained on how to recognise a false accusation.

I assume there are signs that can make a trained person doubt the claim.
How detailed are the memories of real rape victims in comparison with the false ones?
Is the story getting bigger and more ‘topped-up’ and becomes somewhat exaggerated? Then it’s likely to be a false claim.
Does the accuser experience misplaced emotions when reporting and detailing the rape? What kind of emotions are real rape victims experiencing and showing?

It must be the hardest thing for a real rape victim to go through the process of re-living her rape in detail.
If there were no cases of false accusations it would be much easier to go through hearings for them.
False accusers don't only make life harder for men, but also for genuine rape victims.

Celivia, William Farrell quotes a US air force study which found a rate of at least 60%. 27% admitted that they had lied just before taking or just after failing a lie detector test and independant reviewers used 25 criteria common to those who had admitted to lying to review other cases. If all three reviewers agreed that a rape allegation was false then it was considered false.

The same criteria were used to review accusations from two cities and the 60% rate held.

The supervisory agent was Charles P. McDowell and some material was published in an article entitled False Allegations in a US Air Force publication called Forensic Science Digest.

I've not seen other credible material on the topic and don't know how good the material Farrell references is.

Farrell also talks about prison rape, again there appears to be little serious work on the subject but one california study if projected across the US would suggest 1 Million men raped in prison each year in the US vs 120,000 women suffering a rape or attempted rape in the US each year. Guys who are falsly accussed may be subjected to real rape as part of the consequences they suffer.

R0bert

I've only skimmed the following documents so far but all seem to be interesting (even if potentially impacted by ism's).

On the false allegation issue - an NZ document regarding police handling of complaints. http://www.aic.gov.au/conferences/policewomen3/jordan.pdf

Off topic but some interesting documents on sexual assault.

"Male survivors of sexual assault and rape"
http://www.aifs.gov.au/acssa/pubs/wrap/w2.html
"Males represented approximately 16-20 per cent of the total reports for sexual assault and rape combined."

General Australian sexual violence infomation
http://aic.gov.au/publications/rpp/36/part1.pdf
"Anecdotal evidence from the Victims Referral and Assistance Service, a help-line and referral service for victims of crime in Victoria, suggests that males do represent a larger proportion of victims of sexual violence than is reported. Between 30 and 40 per cent of sexual assault victims calling the service were men; however, only about six per cent had reported the crime to the police (Victims Referral and Assistance Service 1999, pers. comm.)."

and

"The study was based around a questionnaire that was administered to 300 prisoners aged 18 to 25 in New South Wales prisons in 1994 and 1995. Heilpern’s key findings include that:
• one-quarter of males aged 18–25 incarcerated in New South Wales prisons report they have been sexually assaulted while they are in prison, and almost half said they have been threatened with sexual assault;"

R0bert

Hi all...
Absolutely. Any false accusation of a crime, puportedly committed 'against the person', is ALWAYS injurious to 'the good fame and character' of an individual so wronged. I personally, have witnessed the profound effect that such a scurrilous charge has had. In one instance, ending in a suicide.

The old legal maxim...'he who accuses, must prove'... sometimes flies out the window. Often the person so wronged continues to suffer the 'flow on' effect, years after the matter has been dealt with.
Conversely, a victim of, say sexual assault, will often decline to report the offence for fear that she/he will not be believed! This whole area of criminal law is pretty messy really?

Yet again, in the 'House of Lords', one of the erudite Law Lords (his name escapes me) exclaimed that..."it is far better that a hundred guilty men/women go free, than one innocent person be punished for a crime he did not commit"...A very fine and laudable statement, to be sure.

In respect to my opinion on this question... A person who has been falsely accused, of a crime 'against the person', has certainly been wronged. But a dreadful physical crime 'against the person' is far worse and the effects prolonged, when acompanied by violence. They are as bad as each other, I reckon.
Cheers...sungwu.
PS Sorry for the convoluted mess above, I'm not travelin' too well at the moment.

spendocrat, sorry I missed your post yesterday. I agree that you can't effectively compare them on a badness scale other than to say the harm is on a case by case basis.

My orignal intent was to follow on from a comment on the Newsworthy Rape thread that seether made http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=5484#70061

"What disappoints me about these discussion threads is that there seem to be a heap of people out there who seem to take the position that a false accusation is as bad as or worse than a violent rape. I think if you asked most people what they'd rather experience, the choice would be pretty clear. "

In my view that discussion is off topic to the original article but important. I suspect that seether is correct in the view that many don't see a false allegation as being as bad as a violent rape (leaving aside the degree of violence).

I'm hoping that others join in to discuss/debate the issue.

o sung wu, thanks for your input. Sorry to hear that you are not travelling well.

R0bert

The threads asks the wrong question surely it should be is a false claim as much a crime as rape?
And surely it is!
a false claim is just as much a crime and both should see long prison terms.

Belly, the problem is the difficulty in differentiating between lack of evidence and a false claim.

Where it can be clearly proven that a false claim has been made then I'd favour a prison sentence but would hate to see an actual victim of crime go to jail because there was not sufficient evidence to back their accusation. Bring on reliable lie detection.

I'm also concerned that implemented wrongly prison terms might lead to the small percentage who eventually "fess up" staying quiet. I don't like it much but maybe some provision where people who do admit to making a false accusation (of their own initiative rather than when faced with evidence) avoided penalty - freeing wrongly accused/convicted individuals seems more important than jailing those who have changed their ways.

R0bert

I agree wholeheartedly that any deliberate and malicious false accusation is wrong and the emotional distress is terrible. I would of thought that goes without saying. However, the idea of this comparison is absurd and down right offensive. It shows your complete lack of understanding.

Once more. The police on behalf of the victim of rape have to gather enough evidence to proceed; they present this evidence to the brief manager and, if the brief manager is pretty well certain of a conviction, the prosecution then has to prove beyond doubt that the complainant actually suffered the sexual assault? Failure doesn’t mean the accusation is false.

The genuine complainant not only has to cope with the physical and emotional effects of rape but has doubt cast on her reputation just as the falsely accused has his reputation degraded. What about the emotional trauma of a genuine rape victim when the rapist claims her accusations are false and has to endure the usual male prejudices? In other words, RObert surely you can see that a woman who is raped and doesn’t get justice suffers the same emotional distress (as well as the direct trauma of rape) as a falsely accused male (I am talking specifically about male on female rape which is the norm as women seldom rape men).

The idea that if a person acquitted of rape charges (sexual assault, aggravated assault) can turn around and demand she be jailed or charged is creating a very dangerous situation for women. Genuine complainants willing to proceed to court will be even fewer and further between. Imagine how unbearable it would be to be a genuine rape victim jailed for making a complaint that failed in court.

Here, it is real dilemma because if you charge someone for making a false accusation after an acquittal then it is a very effective way of excluding women from the legal system. At the same time, for any person to be jailed when innocent - well we are stating the obvious now – that would be unbearable. Cont.

Cont.Even if you agree with the stats that these men’s groups drag up re: false accusations. Most of them don’t get published. It is unclear whether they even get by the police officer in charge of the investigations. Moreover, good editors are careful to consider the consequences of unfair publication. Unfortunately, accusations against high profile people are more likely to be publicised. But this is nearly always after the police have charged the person. I guess you have to weigh up the right of the public to know with the reputation of the defendant. If police charged a woman with making false allegations the editor would probably publicise that if he thought it newsworthy.

Re: falsely-accused who suicide. How many rape victims have opted out RObert? Doesn’t further your argument to chase up that side? And you’re objective? I attack your lack of objectivity and callousness for joining in the hijacking of another thread and you set about to prove me right - on one aspect anyway?

One more thing RObert. I may have read you wrong, but somewhere on OLO you made sure posters understood that you were not a victim of sexual assault. Probably to let us know that it was outside your experience or perhaps because you did not want to be seen as a victim – another no, no for you. Well I know it is becoming orthodox these days to regard victims as weak or whatever but it is the criminals who are weak and some haven’t the courage to take responsibility for their own failures. It is time to see things as they are rather than the way we are told they are or want them to be.

I wish I had more time to discuss this but let me assure if I say your ideas are not reasonable that is an attack on your ideas on your objectivity in that particular case. It is not an attack on you. Take it how you will though.

ronnie, a much more reasonable post that the one on the "Newsworthy Rape" thread.

I think I made my objections to a lack of evidence being cause for a jail sentence (or other punishments) fairly clear.

I'd like to see equivalent punishments where a deliberate false acusation is proven but I suspect that would be a very rare ocurrance. Rather I'd like to see a shift in what appears to be an acceptance that false allegations are some kind of legitimate tool to get at somebody. I guess you think that won't happen, I have a different view. It's currently hard to prove either way.

You may notice that the links I post are not generally to mens sites, I go to government or university sites where I can. Exception are when I want a specific piece of text (or to give credit to a source such as at the start of this thread). I generally express reservations if I hold them - did you notice comments I have made elsewhere about Farrells writing?

Have a check of the articles I referenced in my post http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=416#8099
- mens sites?

I strongly believe that false accusations can be just as harmful as rapes (depending on the severity of the rape and the resources the person has to deal with either). As to the frequency of false accusations and other issues I'm still trying to work through the spin to understand the issue.

R0bert

Good thread R0bert. Although I will not do it justice, I do have a burning desire to clarify one thing: false accusations ARE always more serious than the real rape, for the very obvious reason that the real rape did not occur.

OK, while I’m at it there is one more thing: Ronnie is turning out to be quite enigmatic – he is either a victim of rape, has had someone close to him get raped, is a professional defender of rape victims, or is after all, a she. If none of the above, then one very sorry dude – perhaps even a reformed rapist himself.

Give us some background Mr Peters, we’re all dying to know …

Thanks, RObert. These figures show that false accusations occur much more than I thought.

I fully agree that in case of strong evidence of a false accusation, there should be a jail sentence and as I said in a previous post, the accuser should financially make up the victim’s losses as well.

A genuine rape, when the rapist who has been accused, is, in turn, accusing the rape victim of lying and denying that he raped the victim, should pay for the rape AND the false accusation that she made up the rape.
So he should not only have to pay for the rape, but also for accusing her of making it up.

That way, everyone will get what they deserve:
A rapist should be punished for the rape.
If he’s accusing the victim of falsely accusing him and it is later found that HE was lying, he should be punished for that as well as for the rape. Double crimes mean double punishments.
A person who falsely accuses someone of raping her/him (men do rape men as well!) should be punished.

All of these crimes are very serious and should appropriately be punished.

Victims that are out of pocked because of rape or false accusations should be ‘reimbursed’ by the perpetrator, which is an appropriate punishment for criminals like this.
Plus, all of them deserve a jail sentence, depending on the severity of the individual cases.

Ronnie, in my opinion RObert is one of the men on the OLO forums who is very reasonable, fair and balanced when it comes to sexual equality issues.

For example, a while ago there was a discussion about discrimination of women in Cambodia (Titled "Women should always obey their husbands") where he showed to be the ONLY man in that discussion who cared to speak out in favour of the women of Cambodia.
I haven’t been a poster for a very long time and I don’t make many posts, but I have come to respect RObert for his overall fairness and unbiasedness (if that’s a word) including the information he posts.

Robert no one wants a victim of rape or a fasle claim to suffer either
However in both rape and false claims evedence must prove guilt first.
It must be said false claims are growing young girls have admited false claims against fathers to help in a war between parents.
Such young girls without later admissions would have forever distroyed a father.
In a dreadfull case the admition came after the father was found hanging and dead
False claims are a crime equale to the crime its self.

Celivia, thanks for your words of support. Somehow ronnie and I seem to have got stuck in an ugly spot on gender violence discussions which I find both sad and frustrating.

In regard to the frequency I really don't know the answer, I've seen articles suggesting that women have no reason to make up false allegations and others outlining a number of reasons why they do.

I think it's one of those issues being "spun" by both sides of the gender wars with the truth lying somewhere in the middle. Independant research appears to be needed.

R0bert

Many years ago now,my 15 year old neighbour was caught in a hotel by her father ,she was bought home and reprimanded.Grounded etc. She went to the police and reported her father raped her . I was horrified he would do such a thing, his daughter would come to me crying and I felt so sorry for her.
He was sentenced to 5 years jail.
After 8 months ,she came to me and told me she lied just to get back at him. I took her to the police station where she told them the truth.
She couldn't be charged because she was a minor,being so long ago (30 years)or so. I have always wondered all these years later, why she wasn't punished.
How easy it is to get back at a male thru' false accusation it seemed.

Ronnie, to clarify a point you made "One more thing RObert. I may have read you wrong, but somewhere on OLO you made sure posters understood that you were not a victim of sexual assault. Probably to let us know that it was outside your experience or perhaps because you did not want to be seen as a victim – another no, no for you. "

The first guess is the correct one, my intent was to make it clear that it is outside my personal experience. I'm trying to understand the issue but don't have personal experience of it.

As to the discussion regarding being seen as a victim - some of but not completely. I've been a "victim" of domestic violence (physical and emotional) and admit to that but at the same recognise my own choices to stay rather than end the marriage at that time.

There are victims who are overwhelmed by a physical assault, others chose it as the lesser harm at the time.

At the time the risks of ending the marriage seemed to outweigh the other stuff - mostly a combination of the fact that I committed "for better or worse" and the biased family law system (and I didn't know the half of it then).

R0bert

It's funny how things come back to you when you read other posts. I do wonder at the impact of the legal system on false accusations when I remembered an experience of mine. I received legal aid and went to court because of a problem with a government agency. I had written the details of my case and gave them to my solicitor. In it I commented on an abusive partner, meaning a business partner. My solicitor read it back to me and said that my husband was abusive! No, you can't say that I said. But, I was told it has already gone to court that way. I told him that it would have to be changed and it was done so in front of the judge. How many though, would just have gone along with it because of intimidation, insecurity or whatever.

Robert said: “Rather I'd like to see a shift in what appears to be an acceptance that false allegations are some kind of legitimate tool to get at somebody.” False allegations are not regarded by women generally as a legitimate tool to get at anybody. I don’t think it‘s representative of feminists, masculinists and humanists . Feminists and others have fought hard to get rape taken seriously and you are working against those gains.

RObert in political journalism there is a tactic that is regarded as the lowest of gutter journalism. It is the “wife beater” slag. Accuse an adversary of bashing their wife. The more he protests innocence the more he draws attention to the charge. He is in a no-win situation and he is harmed. You are doing much the same thing with your false-allegation-a –legitimate- tool slander against women.

Why don’t you just tell l posters why the police aren’t effective gatekeepers? And don’t crap on about how they are conditioned. The process is geared towards the defendant if anything, especially, if he is cashed up. The victim makes a complaint to an officer who will review the information, investigate and then report to the Brief Manger who will pass it on to the DPP. Part of the investigation is to see if the allegations can be substantiated and proven in court. Now a “false accusation” is unlikely to go past these gatekeepers. Read page ten.

http://aic.gov.au/conferences/policewomen3/lievore.pdf

Read about Dawn Annadale who falsly accused. She is rightly in jail now. So, albiet some get by, false accusations are dealt with.

RObert you gather information to back up your position but ignore that which supports the other perspective.

Another thing RObert the police have a media unit which distributes information. Some rape victims may go directly to the media but that would be where the police were believed to be not taking the case seriously or in establishment circles "gold digging". RObert if DPP don’t get a conviction it isn’t recorded as a rape - so rape, as Lievore notes, is more widespread than their figures show.

Celiva: Yes RObert can be sensible but I think he is wrong here. Now you said that Robert seeks equality. There is no equality in a rape – no equality in that “exchange”. There is no myth of male power - it is all about male force and control. And something RObert and his crew refuse to own is that this is a crime that men only do and they do it very often for all sorts of reasons. From memory the stats are about 80% male to female and the rest is men to men and others. Nevertheless, the thing is it is a crime mostly committed by males. Male rape victims would feel similar to female victims.

Roberts comparison unfairly distorts that “exchange”. Rape is gender specific. Males nearly always do it. Roberts comparison tends to lessen the impact of this unavoidable truth about these men. The men that do this are not representative of the rest of us. (And yes even though I’ve said this a zillion times Aqvarivs et al will still misrepresent me and carry on about how I bludgeon all men etc. etc.)

RObert’s comparison is also wrong because false accusations can be made by anyone – any gender. Which brings me to another point. It is interesting to note that every time I have tried to reason with these mens groups certain ones have levelled false accusations at myself and my family. This is truly pathetic behaviour and yet RObert the champion of justice and equality says nothing about these false accusations - such is his true concern. While not on the same level as a false accusation of rape to the authorities, it is these subtleties that show up the hypocrites on OLO in this respect.

Just to show you how silly your comparison is these terrorists that go into villages and rape women. Don’t you think the women would rather they hurled a few false allegations.

RObert that you have been abused by your ex. doesn’t or supported Cambodian women doesn’t excuse your tactics or explain your rather strange reasoning.

Ronnie,
Perhaps the Myth of Male Power is in fact much exaggerated or a myth, but I am not looking at what RObert says from a feminist point of view but rather from a humanitarian one.
I have no doubt that men, like women, suffer from injustices and prejudgments.

If people feel that men, when they’re being falsely accused of rape are not being treated fairly by the legal system or treated with disrespect by the community, and that the accuser is not appropriately punished, they have the right to speak out about it, don't they? This is all RObert is doing in my understanding.

Standing up for victims of false accusations does not mean there is no regard for real rape victims, neither is it a denial that rape is a serious crime.

I believe that all RObert is doing here is raising awareness about false accusations and expressing concerns.

RObert is not denying that raping women is a crime that should be punished by jail sentences. He merely adds that a false accusation of rape is also a very serious crime that should perhaps deserve equal punishment as rape does, depending on the individual cases.
I'm not sure about the punishments being equal to that of rape- I'd need to research it more and individual cases need to be dealt with, well...individually.

Yes, I agree that rape is gender specific and that false accusations are not.
But why does this have to be looked at as a gender problem? A crime is a crime no matter what sex the perpetrator is. Every case has to be judged individually and punished appropriately.

Celivia, thanks and very well said.

I'm nervous about the idea of punishments for false accusations because I suspect that would lessen the chances of the accuser retracting the accusation or of others who know the facts speaking up. Someone who might be suffering from conscience may not speak up if a loved one would go to jail as a result but they might speak up to free an innocent person. I don't know what the solution to that issue is.

I don't hold with the idea that addressing the exceptions takes away from the original issue, an opposition to false accusations does not lessen my disgust at the real cases.

I've written less about the real cases because I think that they are well covered already. We have laws in place against them and little public sympathy for rapists (I hope).

We do have some work to do in finding better ways to manage the prosecution process so that we lessen the trauma on rape victims whilst preserving the presumption of innocence and the ability of an accused to defend themselves. Again I'm not sure what the answers are there.

Being able to discuss these kind issues freely without being accussed of supporting the abusers gives us a better chance of finding real solutions.

Ronnie, I tend to speak up in defence of other posters mostly when I see them being unfairly attacked - if you were a bit less keen to throw nasty allegations at other posters (including myself) I might take more time to tell others that their comments are unfair. I don't generally try and get in the middle of mud fights where both sides seem keen to throw it. I may not always get that balance right but then I am human.

R0bert

My son was falsely accused just before his 16th birthday. This nightmare goes on and on for him.

He was never allowed to face his 11 year old accuser in court. The family moved out of state 10 days before trial. Her prior accusations (she'd accused twice before) were inadmissable thanks to rape shield protection. She had a contagious bacterial infection at the time, but 'victim's' medical information is 'confidential'. Her physical exam showed her to be virginally intact.

My son faced 6 years in prison. He accepted an Alford plea for no jail time when his attorney assured us the 'victim' would win in court. She was checked into a mental facility so she wouldn't have to return to WA state to testify.

His plea bargain was voided when he passed a third polygraph during his sentencing evaluation. They said he was 'in denial'.

He spent the next three years reporting weekly to probation as a 'dangerous sex offender', and failing 'sex offender therapy'. Sex offender therapy is comparable to a pit bull arena. Just being forced to confess to a crime you didn't do is not enough - you have to pass a polygraph, and he failed it every time. He was placed on an ankle monitor for failing the confession polygraph.

He has spent every birthday since age 16 at the police station, registering as a sex offender.

He fears marriage. He is afraid to have children. Our family has been publicly 'listed' along with him. He was supposed to only have to register for 10 years, but the laws changed. It's now 20 years. Laws are passed restricting where he can live, where he can work, if he can travel...his life will never be 'normal'.

I was molested as a child. I have a choice if I want the world to know about it or not. I can choose to put it behind me, or not. I can live where I want. I can choose to let it define my life, or put it away.

He will never have that choice

onlyone, thanks for putting a human face to this issue. Your post sent shivers through me - I feel for your son and family and the pain that you have suffered.

R0bert

I'll put it this way, having endured both situations - I'd rather have my money stolen than to be falsely accused of being a thief. I greatly prefer to have been a rape victim than to have to live the rest of my life publicly listed as a sex offender as an innocent person.

I have tried to make public the horror of a false accusation on other discussions, but have been roundly hissed and told to be quiet by 'victims' or their advocates.

What other crime in existance requires conviction and punishment of innocent people in order for 'victims' to feel vindicated?

What other crime in existance makes it necessary to believe the unbelieveable in order to appease 'victims'?

onlyone, hopefully you will have a better reception here.

There are other issues with a similar response, I've heard one well known anti-child abuse advocate say that she is willing for innocent men to go to jail if it might better protect children. Men trying to speak about DV where males are the victim meet a similar response.

It seems that some feel that it weakens the position of genuine victims if the lies are acknowledged. I tend to think that pretending that the false allegations don't happen does greater damage.

R0bert

The more I read and learn about false accusations of rape, the more convinced I become that false accusations are just as horrible a crime as rape itself. They are, in fact, a form of psychological rape and as we have seen from some individual cases (thank you for sharing, Onlyone; it is a very sad story) a person can be emotionally and economically and also socially destroyed as a result, perhaps even for life.

The (mainstream) media hardly pays attention to the perpetrators and fail to recognise falsely accused men as victims.

Ronnie, surely you must acknowledge that ignoring, or worse, defending women in cases like the above must surely be bad for Feminism? Blindly being loyal to women and support whatever they say is not a good practice.

As a woman I feel that feminism has done many positive things for women and I mostly agree with their stands, but I refuse to look at things from only a feminist POV as it is restrictive and not helping to form an as unbiased opinion as possible.
As RObert says, the most important thing is to focus on trying to find solutions.
One way to start is to openly talk about all concerns.

Four men were murdered the past year for being listed on a sex offender registry. Countless others have been harassed, beaten up, committed suicide.

One of those murdered was a man who's 'offense' was to have a 3 years younger (consentual) girlfriend when he was 18. In our case, we've experienced neighbors who no longer speak to us, and we had to place our youngest son in a private school after classmates found out he brother was on a list.

Mistaken identies have resulted in innocent people being beaten or harassed, as well.

There is no escape. If some mentally unbalanced person wants to harm you, you still have to provide your home address to them, or go to prison.

FBI reports are now saying 1 in 4 rape claims may be false. This has the highest conviction rate of any crime, so it stands to reason many, many innocent men are suffering for 'the cause'.

Celivia, thanks again for a thoughtfull post. I wish a few of the anti-feminist crowd you give due credit to your honesty.

I'm not sure if you saw my reference to the idea of adolescent feminism and adult feminism elsewhere. The adolescent feminist is probably in denial about issues like this, the adult one will confront them honestly.

onlyone, any thoughts about the way the process could have been made fairer while also reducing the harm to genuine rape victims?

From what I've read the issue at the moment seems to be that the protections that are such an important part of our justice system are being wound back for some alleged crimes because of the harm that can be done to victims by the trial process.

Are there ways we can both mimimise the impact on genuine victims and preserve the presumption of innocence and the right to defend yourself?

R0bert

Robert, I thank you very much for starting this, so happen that I was looking for help on the issue and stumbled in this forum, immediately joined and here I am, telling you all my story so far.

I am an old man, lived all my life with strong principles which I tried to pass on to my children, I believe of having achieved that.

I have been falsely accused of rape, when you ask the question "which is worse?" I can only give you and everyone my side of the story, I can't possibly pretend to know what a rape victim (male or female) feels at the time and for the rest of his/her life.

I can only tell you all the effects that the false accusation has had on me so far.
1) Destroyed my 41 years marriage.
2) Destroyed the imahe of a man who was considered to be a man whodevoted his life in helping others.
2) Completely ruined the relationship I had with my son and my daughter.
3) Because the person that falsely accused me of rape has an intevention order against me and I now know (little too late) what she is capable of doing, I have locked myself in my house, refusing to go out fearing I might stumble on her and she will then accuse me of having breached the intervention order.
4) I have lost faith in God, there can't be a God if things like that happen.
5) Lost the respect and faith I had in the justice system.
6) Lost the full respect I had for officers of the law (police and others)
7) Lost all my friends, especially female friends, obviously they believe the accusations top be true
8)Lost my self esteem
9)Completely lost my own dignity......... Continues

Continued.....
10) I am unable to sleep, eat, concentrate, looking after myself so much so that I hardly take a shower or shave.
11)Lost my willingness to live
12) Attempted suicide once already and did not succeed, I don't really know if I will ever try again, knowing that it's so hard to prove the opposite to what this woman has alleged I did is a nightmare, been to courts twice already, now waiting for the Committal Hearing, after that if the charges are not dropped, if this woman doesn't decide to finally tell the truth, I will face a jury, as I said lost my faith in the justice system, my feelings are that I only have a 10% chance as most probably political correttness will decide my fate.
As I said I can't pretend to know how a rape victim feels, but I do honestly believe that what I feem at this point in time is much worse that what a rape victim feels. Why someone may ask, the answer is very simple, a rape victim has the availability of various forms of support, including family support, I have NONE, no one will ever support a rapist.

The fact that allegations have been made and conviction perhaps obtained, is understandable that no one will ever offer support to a rapist.

The committal hearing is about 7 weeks away, after that I am not sure how long before the final court case takes place, I will gladly come back here and post the outcome. (Hopefully I will be free and able to do that).

P.S. Forgot to mention that the allegations made against me has cost me more than $10,000.00 already, I have no idea how much will cost by the time is finished.

Maxximo, thanks for telling your story.

Can I suggest that you get a referal to see a psycholigist - they are covered by medicare now and some bulk bill.

A good one may be able to help you cope better with some of the impacts you describe which could be important for your dealing with the hearings.

I've heard it mentioned that in family law issues the impacts of being falsly accues of DV or child abuse can have a significant impact on a persons demeanor in court which acts against their interests. They are so upset by the false claim and the restrictions slapped on their freedoms that they face the courts angry and upset which does not help.

I'd hate to be faced with what you are going through (or what a rape victim has to deal with). I so wish that we had reliable truth verification tools available for the court system, so much of this stuff would go away.

Please continue to contribute to the discussion.

R0bert

One part of this issue has been playing on my mind all afternoon.

What are the options regarding legal expenses for someone who needs legal representation because of a claim by someone else and who is not subsequently convicted?

Our system is structured such that defending your self without legal representation would be very foolhardy no matter how innocent you might be.

I've been trying to think of an appropriate response - the most just approach which I can think of would be something like reinbursement of legal and associated costs up to 10% above the amount spent doing the prosecution (with some checks in place so that a defendent knows where they stand).

The current system appears able to financially cripple someone regardless of guilt or innocence.

R0bert

RObert, since bible times men have been wrongly imprisoned for false accusations - Genesis 39 in fact, the story of Joseph and Potiphar's wife.

I'm writing as a US citizen. At one time men had constitutional rights, but these have been usurped in favor of victm's rights. The legal deck is completely stacked against the accused - the accuser is immediately referred to as 'the victim', and guilt is presumed. This is a witch hunt carnival, and nothing is stopping it anytime soon.

Maxximo, the LAST thang you should give up on it God. God is the only hope or chance you have for survival. There is a Psalm giving thanks for adversity, because it brings you closer to God. IF you find God in this, you will give thanks as well. Believe me.

We tried a psychologist - she just cried with us, was horrified at our plight, but completely helpless to actually be of help. She in fact, said this made her ashamed of her profession (the pychological raping by 'experts' the accused goes through is unbelieveable).

The cost of justice is enormous. Our son was accused out of state. No attorney would accept the case until we deposited $50,000. cash in their account. We didn't have time to sell our home or raise that kind of cash. He had to go with a public defender.

Continue....

In the Duke LaCrosse case, I wrote a reporter who lamented the fact they had spent over 5 million dollars defending their sons so far.

Horrible as that is, I wrote and told him the consequences of a person who didn't have 5 million dollars to buy justice.

It's a never ending nightmare that gets worse with time, not better.

My husband is a Viet Nam combat veteran. He has to live with the horror of seeing people killed, and knowing he killed himself. It is in the past, however. Time is supposed to heal wounds, not keep rewounding just for good measure.

Thanks for listening. Aly

Thank you very much, Robert and onlyone, you are absolutely right as far as costs is concerned, I am entitled to what they call Legal Aid, but listen to this, my lawyer clearly spelt out that if I could pay CASH, then I would be better represented, unbelievable but true my friends, I am a pensioner, can't afford to properly defend myself.
I sent the lawyer an email today, in it i clearly said that if he has the slightest doubt about me being innocent then I don't want him to represent me. If I have to go to jail for something I didn't committ then I will try to do my best and defende the case in Court myself, I know it will be a stupid thing to do, but what other options do I have if even my lawyer believes I am guilty?
As you all know in a rape case there are no witnesses as such, none was present when the alleged rape occurred, it's the word of a man against the word of a woman, and we all know that in todays society and let me say especially in the country I live, that fact is much more so.........Continues

Continues....... Let me give you an example of what happened few months ago in the place where I live.
A woman alleged that her husband was continuously abusing and hitting her, she alleged that the abuse and bashing went on for years.
One day she decided to put an end to it, you rpobably believe she reported all to the police, well you are all wrong.
One day about a week after last abuse, she grabbed her husband rifle, she dressed with a mimetic overall, similar to one the army wears, she then went out and hid herself behind somje bushes, she knew her husband would come by, she knew exactly her husband movements.
She waited a while and there he was, her husband finally appeared, she simply aimed at him and shot him twice, killing him instantly.
Maybe I am an ignorant person, but always believed that no one can take the law into his own hands and assassinate a human being, no matter what the reason are, that is the principle of the law, do not take the law into your own hands.
If she shot him during the abuse then i'd say she acted in self defense, but killing him the way she did it was not selfe defense, it was premeditated and perfectly executede bloody murder, am i right in believe that? Think I am, she had an alternative to put that man in jail for a very long time, yet she opted for murder and she was acquitted for reason of self defense. Tell me now, what chances do I have? NONE, thats the only answer I can come up with.

Just in case someone does not believe what I wrote about this woman being set free this is the original newspaper link
http://www.mensrights.com.au/index.php?article_id=264
Please tale a look, remember I am not denying the fact that the man needed to be punished, the fact remains that this woman took the law into her own hands. Imagine this for a minute.
A person enter your premises at night, bash you to death then leaves, you know this person, but you do not report the assault to the police, this person keeps on coming back, the usual always happen, you get bashed again and again then the person leave your house, you decided you had enough, you don't wait for this person to come back to your home, you get a rifle, and because you know the person routine, you hide somewhere, when this person passes by your hiding place you shoot him dead. Will you go to jail for premeditated murder? Oh yes you will, there's no way you will be found not guilty, it was premeditated, it was an execution not a self defense case.
I hope of having been clear, never intended defending the abusive and violent man, i'm only criticising the justice system when a woman is involved.

Maxx, When I was young, it was not uncommon for men to get away with murdering their wives when they caught them committing adultry - it was called 'justifiable homicide'. The pendulum has swung to the women's advantage, where THEY now have a license to kill.

I came of age in an era when people (female people mostly) proclaimed the world would be such a better place if women were running it. Women pretty much are running it, and here in the US we have more men in prison than any nation of the face of the planet.

In our brave new 'anything a man can do a woman can do better' world, you notice men still are expected to fight and die without choice(my 19 year old son just recieved an address update from selective service - it's just a samll matter of time before the drat is reinstated, I predict).

When my sons were required to register for selective service, I was so angry, I started to register as well. (I am a Viet Nam era veteran, as a woman I have already served my country). I found out it is against the law for me to do that, with heavy fines and jail time. So much for 'equality', eh girlfriends?

But I'm digressing.

As far as your attorney not believing you, NONE of them 'believe' you, unless you have the money to make it worth their while to believe you.

contined...

It's too much trouble and social reprucussions to prove an innocent person innocent - the name of the game is to get the best plea deal for you they can, and let you suffer the consequences.

Not to be unfair to the poor attroneys - in this witchhunt evil atmosphere, attorneys who win for evildoers are made to suffer. Unless there's a lot of $$$ in it for them, it's not worth their while to 'win', since it's a 'win' for a guilty person - ALL accused are guilty, remember.

My son's attorney won not one but TWO huge daycare cases in the '80's, where 14 children accused Kari Sortland of molesting them. He won two aquittals for his client, which is why we chose him.

Six months later, Kari Sortland was gunned down in his front yard on Halloween night, the killer never found. I's sure my son's attorney has spent a lot of time looking over his shoulder, waiting to be next. (We didn't find any of this out until AFTER out son went to jail for something he didn't do.) This case can still be found on the internet.

SOhopeful is an American organization that may be able to offer some hope or advice. There's COSA, I believe. Don't give up, and please, don't be foolish.

My son was clearly and cleanly innocent - too many people in places of power need these convictions for career advantage. They don't care a whit about guilt or innocence - just convictions.

Good luck, and God speed

onlyone, once again thank you for your words of hope. I am so sorry to hear your son story, sorry and at the same time very upset. onlyone dear friend till 3 years ago i respected women, respected and admired them for been able to work and at the same time lookout for their children and their family. As of now i have nothing but hate in my heart. I know it's wrong, not all women are the same, it is unfortunate that few make this world we live in such a bad place to be. There's only one thing in my mind right now onlyone, I WILL not go to jail for something i didnt committ, much prefer death to jail. If you only knew what happens to men going to jail for having raped a woman you would understand my feelings, being innocent or not it doesnt matter, a man jailed for rape, will be sodomised, assaulted, some times even castrated, teling you that I am very afraid is not enough dear friend, I am in fact terrified at the thought of what might happen to me if i am convicted. As far as God, my dear friend he has abandoned me, i was such a believer, never a day went by without me praying for the poor, the oppressed, and anyone who needed a prayer, i am no longer able to pray or to believe there is a God. Help? I have tried so many avenues my friend, always found that the door is shut for me, one thing you are absolutely right about is the money issue, i know that if i had $50,000.00 to spare i would be set free.

Maxximo, I've gained the impression that the staunchest defenders of the kind of bias which you refer to are men.

I have the impression that they have a patronising view of women - wanting to protect women, wanting to feel that women are delicate flowers needing equal rights but not really up to the rough and tumble of the real world. They refuse to see wrong when it's done by women and hold men ultimately responsible based on gender.

Some women take advange of this, others reject it.

You posted a link earlier to a document on the MRA website, think of the great work being done by Sue Price and the other women providing support through that organisation.

Likewise on these forums some women are really serious about equality and reject wrong done to men to advantage women.

Don't blame all women for the actions of some - just as I don't wish to be blamed because some men are scum.

R0bert

Maxx,

RObert is right. I am a woman, and you won't find a stronger defender than me.

Keep in mind, many women have been genuinely victimized by men. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I deeply feared my son would end up hating women, but he has not. He was put through three years of 'therapy', where he was forced to confess the crime. Actual exchange between him and the 'therapist': Q: How could I have raped this girl, and she's still a virgin? T: "You must have a small dick." -This from an adult woman to a 16 year old boy.

I am quite aware of what awaits those in prison. I considered putting a bullet through my son's head, rather than have that happen to him. He's a small buildt, very handsome young man, and it's unthinkable what would have happened. It was 9 years ago this happened, and it still brings me to my knees in fear. He spent a month in jail after passing a third polygraph showing him truthful when he said he didn't rape her - they said it 'proved' he was dangerous and in denial. He was beaten up for being the only white kid there, and they didn't put his broken wrist in a cast, it healed wrong. We were told he was lucky this is all that happened to him, and I know that is true.

The God you have been praying to may or may not have been truly God, but if you allow yourself to stop and listen, you will find out what God truly is. Read the story of Job - everything he loved or cared about was taken from him, but he did not lose faith or become bitter.

The book of psalms is almost entirely about false accusations - I never knew that until now. These things will slowly reveal themselves to you, if you don't give in to evil. You are facing a monstrous evil right now, and playing into evil's hands if you turn from God now.

Please trust me on this.

Robert, thanks again, you are absolutely right I know it's me who's wrong right now, hopefully it will get better somehow.

I have no right to judge and believe that women are all the same and I am not but I repeat, the very few women taking advantage of the legal system do not achieve any good at all to the women equality they are still seeking, there's nothing more to seek Roberts, in this country we hear times and times over a Federal Government Campaign entitled "Australia Says No" (to family violence and violence against women) at one point during the campaign a woman say "maybe it was my fault" then a VOICEOVER, firmly say "it's NEVER your fault" I am absolutely convinced that the jurors, when deliberating my case wil have in their mind that phrase, after all it's the Federal Government saying that could they possibly go against the Federal Government View on the matter? NO they can not and they will not. Robert, as you can see I don't really have much to look forward, I have in fact nothing to look forward.

onlyone, your words of hope give me some encorouagement and some hope.
What you son suffer it's not human it's evil and only an evil person can do that to another human being.
I am considering going public right now, I will approach my lawyer and see if it's legal for me to do so, I must do something for myself and for any other man falsely accused of rape, I need to stir the public, everyone must be aware fo what is happening to me, most importantly it can happen to anyone of them tomorrow, maybe by stirring the public opinion someone decide to come to my rescue and make sure to set things right, maybe the legislators will open their eyes and think of the possible consequences of their actions, someone once said it's better to see 100 guilty persons acquitted and set free than 1 innocent person wrongly convicted, I've always agreed with that view, and agree with it right now as never before.
thanks again onlyone.
P.S. since the very beginning of this I wanted to talk to the accuser, I wanted to talk to her in front of her lawyer or even with the police present, I wanted for her to tell me in fron of those people that I raped her, I wanted to hear it from her, till today no one has given me that opportunity, no one has allowed me to ask her that question, why? I have now asked to take a polygraph, I am sure will not be allowed to unless I pay with my own money, we'll see what happens if I have to pay will get the money somwhere, I just need to convice someone of my innocence.

Maxximo, if you are allowed to go public with this I'd wait until you've worked past that anger at women. Regardless of what brought it on it will hurt your cause in the public domain and if you still feel it, it will come out. Society is not yet at the point where men who are angry at women are given a sympathetic hearing. Likewise get that stuff dealt with before you front a jury.

It sounds like you understand the logic but are struggling with the personal stuff, as I mentioned earlier check into seeing a psychologist. Some are really good (and some are not as OnlyOne pointed out).

Cheers
R0bert

I JUST WANTED TO ADD THAT I AM A VICTIM OF RAPE FROM THE TIME I WAS 4 UNTIL I WAS 12 BY A FAMILY MEMBER IT TOOK FROM THE TIME I WAS 13& MAKING A COMPLAINT TILL 22 TO GET A CONVICTION OF 29CHARGES, THIS ROCK SPIDER GOT A SENTENCE OF 12YRS REDUCE TO 5YRS REDUCED TO2YRS WITH GOOD BEHAVIOR THAT WAS 18MONTHS SO WITH TIME SERVED BY SENTENCING DAY HE WAS RELEASED & BECAUSE HE WAS A MONTH OFF 17 WHEN HE FIRST STARTED HIS LOWLIFE ACTS HE DIDNT EVEN GET HIS NAME PRINTED IN THE PAPER EVEN THOUGH HE TAUGHT CHILDRENS BASKETBALL. I HAVE EXPERIENCE WHAT IT IS LIKE TO HAVE PEOPLE LOOK AT YOU LIKE CRAP & NOT BELIEVE YOUR SIDE OF THE STORY EVEN THOUGH THERE IS EVIDENCE TO PROVE YOUR CLAIM ITS NOW BEEN 5YRS SINCE COURT & I STILL GET PEOPLE JUDGING ME & I TELL MYSELF I KNOW THE TRUTH I'M A VERY STRONG WILLED DETERMINED SINGLE MOTHER THAT TEACHES MY CHILD THAT WE KNOW THE TRUTH & AT THE END OF THE DAY IT IS ONLY YOUR SELF THAT WILL BE THERE FOR YOU & CAN PULL YOU THRU SO OTHERS OPINIONS R JUST THAT.

So what's your point, Julie? I stated earlier I was molested as a child. How does convicting innocent men make up for that, I have to ask?

Making it an inperative that ALL accusers must be believed, even if innocent men go to prison is YOUR idea of vindication? Liars must be believed so YOU will be believed? Sorry, sister. I guess being a woman does not exclude me from being a decent human being. I would never condone an innocent person going to prison, or a liar being believed for my own personal satisfaction.

NO INNOCENT PERSON DESERVES THAT!

If sending innocent people to prison makes you happy, I sincerely pray for your soul, and for those unfortunate enough to get in your path.

Coercive persuasion does get used to wring out a confession from any number of persons who have the misfortune to come under the net of ‘necessary counselling!’

Methods learned by today’s Psychology Students can be uses both for and against the person ‘said to require counselling,’ such as the male partner of a woman who just needs to claim she is unhappy in their relationship, and wants out of it, as well as claim 2/3rd of the home and income, with the help of today’s ever increasing family law solicitors.

Your Psychologists, Solicitors, Court Prosecutors & family law judges, all have to earn a living so the more they drum up business, there will always be the unscrupulous operators willing to get a guilty plea as it means more money for them, feathering their nest, and placing a buffer between them and the poverty line that an ordinary worker battles with each day.

http://www.factnet.org/rancho1.htm

co·er·cive [kō úrssiv] adj
using force: using force, or having the power to use force, to make people do things against their will
-co·er·cive·ly, adv -co·er·cive·ness, n
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved

Thank you onlyone, I have nothing to add to what you expressed, thanks again.

To you Julie, let me tell you this, if i had a choice, i would much prefer to be in your situation that the situation I am in, facing up to 25 years jail and being innocent, I never mentioned this before, but this woman and I had a relationship for 20 years, the day of the alleged offence she come to my place to do the usual thing we have been doing for last 20 years, she clearly spelt that out, her statememt to the police starts by saying "Went to his place for a sexual encounter as i had done many times in the past" tell me Julie, why would a man rape a woman that willing drive to his place for a sexual encounter, unless this man is gone mad I see no reason whatsoever for this man to rape that woman. I never said that before because I dont know who read this forum and I am not sure if allowed to say, but now i felt it was necessary for me to write it down so that everyone knows, above all you that I am innocent, i have no idea why this woman accused me of rape, no idea at all, i have no idea why the police decided to prosecute me (1 year after she made the allegations) personally i believe it's not prosecuting a guilty person but persecuting an innocent human being simply because a woman accused him of rape. That is wrong Julie.

I don't think Julie's story had anything to do about convicting innocent men. I think that what she was trying to convey is that there is also a significant problem with accusations not being believed. Is there a problem in broadening the debate? My impression is that not only has she been raped, but she is also being judged as being a liar, that is as a false accuser. Also the person responsible has received little more than a slap on the wrist. So she has a triple whammy. I find it unbelievable that anybody who has been falsely accused would prefer her situation.

Lizzie, please accept my apologies and you too Julie, I don't know why but felt a little down after reading Julie's comment, I now understand perfectly what she meant to say and all falls back to the fact that not believing the innocent person be it the victim or the culprit is a major problem of the legal system anywhere in the world today, once again my apologies, I didn't mean to offend or diminish Julie's problem.

No one is diminishing Julie's situation. If anything, she is the one diminishing. She says she was not believed, but a man went to prison. She may not have been believed enough to feel vindicated, perhaps, but she was believed.

Until you have been in both situations - as *I* have- you really can't say which is worse. I was molested as a cild, I watch the still on-going horror of my son's false accusation, and in my opinion, I suffered far less than he continues to.

BOTH circumstances are horrific, and NO ONE has the right to a free pass, as far as truth is concerned.

My son was put through extensive polygraph testing, as well as phychological testing. His accuser was not. She was protected, and 'believed' without question. Here in the states, 'Children don't lie'.

Don't know about where you are, but here in the states, even if he only was imprisoned 12 months (only!) a man will register for life. His wife and children will be publicly listed alongside him if they still live with him. He will be forced to undergo continued harassment and social outcasting the rest of his life. His ability to earn a living, or live where he wants is limited. Some idiot from Canada could show up at his doorstep any minute and murder him.

That, I believe, is worse than private pain.

I may be wrong, but I don't think false accusations of rape are regularly taken as blind truth here in Australia. Maybe some will have horror stories. However, a friend of my daughter claimed that she was raped by up to six men from an interstate football team.

My daughter was interviewed by police who said that they had doubts about her friend's story. After interviews with the young men accused, there was no evidence to support her claim. It came about that one of them had called her fat and so in her humiliation she wanted revenge.

I think the police can often recognise false claims. A middle aged friend of mine who had a "peculiar" girlfriend was advised by police to take out a restraining order because they can recognise potential trouble from women scorned.

I don't think that American cases are particularly useful in an Australian context. A recent case in the paper where a man tied up and raped a girl for hours and he got 3 years I think has outraged police. On the whole we have a fantastic police force.

One of the biggest problems that I can see about this whole thing is even if you are vindicated by law, that does not mean that the general public or even your own circle of friends or family will believe the truth. There will always be doubt in some people's minds and this is probably the saddest and most tragic outcome of being falsely accused of rape or not being believed that you have been raped.

One thing that I have to say to Onlyone - your son's innocence is what you have to hold onto and you should feel comforted and empowered by that. There is a lot of anger that is coming out in your posts and it should not be directed at people who's stories you do not consider are as bad as yours. As I said earlier in this thread it is a peculiar question that has been asked.

The point that Julie makes about the pain suffered by rape victims not being believed (as much as they feel they need to be believed) is valid but I don't see any way around that just as I don't see a way around an accused not being believed. Claims should be tested and challenged otherwise we have innocents going to jail or crimes going unpunished.

Historically we have also tried to err on the side of caution, taking a stance that it is better for some guilty individuals to go free than for the innocent to be wrongly convicted.

What Julie has to say does not take away from the validity of the plight of those falsly accused, both rape victims and those falsly accused can suffer terribly.

My impression is that any attempt to assume that one is always worse than the other is not valid. Each individual situation will be different.

One of the other issues is that all to often in an attempt to not muddy the waters we fail to differentiate between levels of offence in our discussions. A disagreement over the time it took for a sex act to stop (one extreme) is talked about almost in the same terms as someone dragged off the street and assaulted.

The point that the Australian situation is different to the US one rings a bit true for me (with some reservations), I've heard stories of the extremes here as well but have not seen much serious evidence. If that is the case it's worth understanding what happens in the US because we have followed their lead in a lot of other stuff.

Julie, please join in the discussion with suggestions about how you think our legal system can deal with the issues better. How do we protect the innocent (be they accuser or accused) and still provide justice? How can we minimise the unnecessary pain beyond the initial offense without creating greater injustice?

R0bert

"Is a false accusation of rape as bad as being raped" is the question at hand here, Lizzie.

You find me 'angry', and tell me not to direct it toward those posting here, but you have no problem with the person posting ALL IN CAPS declaring HER anger.

Believe me, Lizzie. I am every bit as angry about a false accusation as Julie is about being raped.

EVERY BIT.

Her anger is no more justified than mine.

Anyone who has had either experience has a right to be. The most frustrating thing is, however, those experincing rape feel they have the right to quash the fact that innocent people ARE falsely accused, and ARE being sent to prison wrongly. There seems a prevading attitude that the falsely accused must suffer in silence, or 'true victims' won't be believed.

That this is even a topic of discussion, rather than a 'given' is pretty telling.

Onlyone, I did not suggest with my comments that your anger is not justified. My comments were in regard to using you anger constructively instead on wasting it on someone who just wanted to put forward her opinion, which is what this forum is all about.

If you read towards the beginning of this thread, my comment in relation to the question being peculiar was because the initial comments made did not compare both sides of the question.

I will also reiterate that innocent people should be protected by law whether they are falsely accused or actual victims of rape. It is also necessary that society at large changes it attitudes to people who are proved innocent or who cannot be proved guilty because of lack of evidence. This last bit is an impossible call I think. Take note of Lindy Chamberlain.

The most important thing I have learned through out this ordeal is that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS JUSTICE.

At least not as dispensed by mankind.

My son's accuser has asked him to 'just let it go'. She is sorry for what she did - or at least sorry it didn't get her what she wanted - and "wants to be a family again".

My son has forgiven her, 'forgiven' defined as not harboring anger or desire for vengeance. None of us will go along with the pretense it never happened. My son still registers as a sex offender, and will the rest of his life. He's not allowed to 'let it go', and she doesn't feel sorry enough about it to go to court and make it right.

She was involved in a horrific car accident, and has had time to reflect on what she did, I imagine. Whether we foolish beings are capable of decerning truth, or justice, right or wrong doesn't matter. There is definately a higher force that can, and does.

Like the biblical Joseph, my son has become a better person for this adversity - adversity is a profound teacher. It is a unending source of pain for me to have watched what he was forced to endure, but he has become a far more wonderful, better person because of it.

This is why, Maxx, I beg of you - don't let go of God's hand in this.

onlyone, i really dont know how you could possibly endure what happened to your family and to your son in particular, i really dont know how your son has "forgiven" the liar that ruined his life, you mentioned few words that almost killed me "Let It Go" someone has tried to make the woman involved in my case "after having seen evidence that it wasnt rape" to rethink and make it right by telling the truth, even her own daughter asked her to do that. She is unrepented, she wants to absolutely see me and above all my family completely destroyed, more that already is. Someone might ask "if there's evidences that it wasnt rape, why have you been charged" my friends it's too long to explain, let me say that my barrister is 100% sure that when the time come she will be crucified and the truth will come out. By then it will be too late for me and my family. Continue

Continued... I already mentioned to you all that my wife and I have now separated, the house we worked so hard for will be sold as to help me pay for my legal costs. Both my wife and I will end up not having a place where to live, a place we can call OUR home ever again, we are too old to even consider getting a mortgage to buy each another property, and certainly I cant afford one not even if I could get a small mortgage, by the time legal cost are paid (with my own half) there's nothing much left to even pay a deposit for another house. onlyone, there's too much in my heart right now to even consider "forgiving or forgetting" there's too much going on for me to believe that someone up there and above all the horrendous things that happen in this earth is there or will be there for me anytime soon. Continues

He DOESNT exist onlyone, it's a fixture of imagination, something that once each and everyone of us pretended to be there for us so as for justice to prevail. It's never the case, too many wars, too much hate between people, too much violence and injustice, it's never ending onlyone, I need him now not in my after life, my children and grand children wil have to live their life knowing that human justice branded they father/grandfather a rapist that is not right onlyone, not now not ever, the time has come for him to prove himself to me onlyone. The time is NOW. or forever be renounced. I know you might consider this a sin, it's not onlyone, a great priest when i was very young once told me, praying is great and we must pray, but there will be times when we need to talk to god and ask questions, just like we ask our own father or mother, that's all i am doing onlyone, up to him to listen, i've done my part for 64 years, 64 long years, full of poverty, sickness, injustice, pain, humiliations, deceits, stress, and much more. I've paid my due to him 1000 times over onlyone, I say NO MORE, please forgive me onlyone, but right now this is what is on my mind. If he does exists then he has sold my soul to the devil and there is nothing for me to do but accept my destiny.

onlyone one more thing, please understand that ONLY TRUE BELIEVERS have the right to TALK to him, and I was one of them, a real true believer, someone that has dedicated his entire life in helping others, be human being or animals, always ready and willing to help in any possibly way I could, I am starting to feel deceived right now onlyone, and if he existed then I have every right to be VERY upset with him.

I guess I'm lucky, Maxx, in that I started out a non believer. My parents sent me to church as a small child. When I was 14 years old, I saw my baby brother hit and killed by a car, a woman who stopped to help began wailing about the lord giving and taking away - I declared my hatred for God right then and there, and continued it until this happened.

I tried to raise my children to be moral, but without religion involvement. I did a better job than I thought. I would spent hours cursing and heaping hatred upon my ister in law for this accusation - until he asked me not to. "It's making you ugly, Mom. If I can bear it, so can you".

He was right, of course. I was giving this evil person just what she wanted - to destroy me, my family, and suck all happiness from our lives forever.

...continued

The only reason I didn't divorce my husband, her brother, was because she wanted it so badly.

She went on her merry way, and I was filled with hatred, and posionous need for vengeance. My son's pleas for me to contine being the person he knew and loved stopped me from devoting my life to hating her.

You have no control over circumstance, but you CAN control how you react to it. I became a bible reader - one horrible night I chose to open a bible and read it, instead of wrapping my car around a pole. I just wanted to die, and not watch the outcome. "The bark of a small dog is louder than the roar of a dead lion" was a passage that stopped me that night.

You are in the throes of this right now, and too blinded by pain - a pain that will seemingly last forever.

ALL of us are God's children, and ALL have the right to his favor. Not just 'true believers'.

Adversity brings you closer to God. Believe it or not, I thank my sister in law for the love and closeness my family now enjoy. We lost our material posessions, and gained spiritual ones that cannot be taken. We are a truly close, strong, loving family that might not have been if not for her.

So thank you Cindi. God loves you, too.

onlyone, if you lived closer it wo0uld have been my dream to meet you and talk with you about all that has happened, I guess the internet has made us all a little closer even if not in person. I dont know if what I feel right now is hate or if I am seeking vengeance, I hoenstly dont know onlyone, the one thing I am looking for is justice, for the truth to come out, my only hope is that this woman get struck by a light and decide to finally tell the truth at the Committal Hearing which is set to be in April 2007. I still hope for that to happen onlyone, will it happen? I dont know, I can only hope it will, I can only hope my dear friend. When I was a very young man, remember seeing my mother always sick (she had tubercolosis) she couldnt breath, she was suffering like hell. One day I was so upset that I took the crucifix off the wall above my mother bed, holding it on my hands, I spoke to him, I said "You dont belong in this house anymore, you are not fair, my mother is suffering too much every day and night, do something, either cure her or take her with you but do something. At that point in time I threw the crucifix out the 4th floor window and screamed "You will only be bak in this house when you made your decision" Continues....

Continued....., Guess what happened onlyone? My mother tubercolosis disappeared, not completely cured but she never sufered again, before this, all doctors where saying that my mother wouldnt live past 40, well guess what? She lived to be 79 years old. At that time I become a true believer and did all I could to say thank you God, for giving my mother back. 50 years have gone by, I mentioned before and repeat, I lived my life in the name of God, I tried and believe succeeded in giving my children the highest standards in life, every single day I prayed and thanked God, onlyone, yes you are right, we are all his children, but as in real life when sometimes a mother or father sell his child right now I feel I am being sold myself to the devil, as a human being one can endure so much onlyone, if a person comes to the point when he feels of having being abandoned by everyone he ever knew in his life and most importantly by someone this person really trusted and believed then it becomes too much to handle. If you truly believe in God then you must believe the fact that we have a destiny, and there's nothing I can do to change my destiny, if that is what (if exists) decided for me the day I was born. Priest say we make our own destiny, thats a blatant lie, we think we can make our own destiny, but none of us can change whatever is in store for us, whatever he decided would be our destiny. Continues

I did very much the same thing when my brother died, Maxx. I sat down at the kitchen table, demanded God to return my brother "if you love me". I gave him until 2:00 to do so.

I now had permisson to hate God, since he didn't obey my demands, and I did so with impunity.

I was blessed with three beautiful children, and a wonderful husband. I didn't see that back then - before. I spent a lot of time discontent with how little money we had, how naughty my children were. I was (secretly) embarassed of my son's learning disabilities.

After my life was cleaved in half by this accusation, I had a horrifically painful epiphany of just how wonderful my life had been -before. How beautiful and wonderful my children were. How hard my husband worked for what we had.

I thought I would never have feelings of joy ever again. I thought my life was over, as was my child's. I considered putting a gun to his head, rather than let him be ruined in prison.

Some months into my ordeal, a dear friend's son was diagnosed with schizophrenia. Like me, her hopes and dreams for her child were forever shattered. We were both broken, frantically distressed women able to live one day by day for the sake of our children who were by now our greatest pain.

Continued.......onlyone I am not sure if you understand what I am trying to say, one thing I can tell you though, each and every time I asked a priest to explain to me HOW ARE FREE? God being God knows exactly what is going to happen to us since the day we are born right? I asked every priest, his answer was always "YES" to which I repolied "Then how can we possibly change what is already written? The answer I always get to this question is "SON YOU MUST BELIEVE, DONT BE LIKE ST. THOMAS"
I apologise to everyone4 who read this forum, I will never again post religious comments, is not what Robert started, please accept my apologies one and all.

I asked her if she thought we would ever have feelings again - would our lives be forever blunted and shut down, only pain and fear seemed to exist. She said no. We never would be happy again.

She was wrong, Maxx. It took years, and years. I'm still not over it, I'm still pained by it. But like I said before - true joy, true love, and true knowledge of God has replaced my former reality.

My father died just a year before the accusation - Thank God. I thought the three years he suffered had brought me some understanding of God. How wrong I was. Death is a natural part of life. Injustice is not. Thou shall not bear false witness is one of the Ten Commandments for good reason. It's as evil as something gets - it's murder. It's theft. It's betrayal. It's obscene greediness. It's all the sins.

My son was lucky this happened when he was so young in a way. You are very public at that age. You are in school, in friend's homes and lives. You are closely observed. For him to be accused of such an unbelieveable crime as this, was just that - not believed. He will have to spend the rest of his life carrying this burden, but he did not have to endure anyone thinking he was actually guilty - except, of course the courts.

I found a great help in books like: Man's search for meaning, by Viktor Frankel - a man who endured the death camps in Nazi Germany. How to stop worrying and start living, the author's name escapes me tonight, I'm getting the flu...even the Alcoholic's 12 step program helped me. I learned to look at my own sins to understand how others could sin against me. I learned the value of forgiveness. I learned to look for a higher power in all this...

However painful, I hope you read the story of Job...

I hope your spirit triumphs. Regards, Aly

Maxx, I believe we are both posting each other at the same time tonight!

I say, find God on your own. Priests are no closer to God than you, probably farther. That is like going to a priest to ask about your own father or mother, like he knows them, and you are a stranger to them. Priests aren't needed to explain or referee your relationship with your earthly father, and they sure aren't needed for your heavenly one. No disrespect intended, but they are no closer to God than you are. We are ALL God's children, we are ALL equally loved. No one has special favor.

You have your own close and personal relationship to God yourself- no one else can explain it for you. Through this adversity, God is trying to speak to you. I hope you learn to listen. -Aly

once again thenk you Aly, I have been reading so much during the last few months onlyone, after all the readings one thing has stuck into my mind, if I survive the accusations I will start some sort of web page or even something bigger like a campaign so as to restore men dignity within society. Onlyone one very important thing is ALWAYS forgotten by everyone, and that is the fact that untill women (of course not all women although I personally strongly believe that the majority does) use their sexuality to achieve higher position in society, higher position in the work place, selling cars and saying things like, "it's big, feels big and moaning as if she is getting an orgasm, selling furniture sitting half naked on a couch, selling shampoo whilst taking a shower and stroking the can as it was a P...., until women degrade themself in the name of money they will never be equal to man. Women are intelligent just like mens are, maybe even more, they are mose sensible than mens (generally speaking), they are and rightly so equal to man in every respect but when they use their femininity to achieve what I mentioned above then women have only themselves to blame if men find hard to give them the credit they deserve, I repeat, if women dont stop using their sexuality the way the do then men have no alternative but to always see women as a sexual object, and it's not mens fault. I know I will get attacked by many about this post, I only ask for you to read and understand it before condemning me for expressing my opinion. Continues

Maxximo, I disagree with the views expressed in the last post but don't condem.
I disagree for a number of reasons
- No group should be held responsible for the actions of some. As a single dad I've see how that kind of logic is abused.
- Choices such as the ones you mention don't excuse different choices by someone else eg - a womans choice to wear revealing clothes does not excuse rape.
- I'm left with the sense that the logic is applied unevenly. Can't the same be said for the way some men choose to be portrayed in the media. The ongoing stereotype of male as protector and provider that stops men being seen as more than that. Where we are condidered as disposable in part because of the image of men that is perpetuated by men.
- Human sexuality is real and powerfull. People will use it in different ways, some helpfull and some harmfull. Some will faunt it in harmfull ways, others will seek to suppress it and do a different kind of harm. Many will work towards finding healthy expressions of it.

There is more to it and the issues you raise can't be easily dealt with in a short post, there is a mix of responsibility and impact that I've not touched.

The hinderances to real equality for men and women are a different topic with flow on's to this one. Until we start seeing others joys, needs and hurts as being as real as our own we will continue to struggle.

R0bert

Elderly women are raped, Maxx. Men are raped. I was molested as a very small child - male children are subject to molest, as well.

Here in the states, women has been falsely accused. Women routinely get lighter sentences,however, innocent or guilty.

None of which has anything to do with TV commercials.

Robert, it seems to me that you are a very intelligent and educated man, you have touched the MOST talkable subject in the history of mankind, and that is "Today society double standards". I know it could be off topic to what you started but believe me this double standard is the cause of all the problems between human beings and much more so between men and women. You say "A woman choice to wear revealing clothes does not excuse rape" and you are ABSOLUTELY right in saying that. But, there is always a BUT. Is leaving your house door open excuse being robbed? Is leaving your car open excuse for it being stolen? Walking around showing off all the money you have in your pocket excuse being bashed possibly killed and then robbed? Walking alone at night excuse being bashed by thugs? Why do we lock doors? Why we do lock cars? Why we do not walk alone at night anymore? Why are we told to not show off money we have? Why are we told to do so many things to protect ourselves? The only reason is that this world is made not only of honest and caring human beings but is also full of criminals, rapist, assassins, murderes, thieves, and much more. Continues

Continues.... Wearing revealing clothes does not excuse rape, absolutely not but the criminally minded, the rapist is in fact encouraged by it, he doesnt care about being exzcused or not a woman wearing revealing clothes should be aware that not all men are decent human beings, there's rapist out there and those kind of people will be enouraged to carry out whatever simply because they are sick in their mind and believe that if that woman wear revealing clothes she WANTS it. Same goes for the thief, leaving the door open encourages the thief not the honest human being, showing off money in public will encourage criminals, this is society Robert, this is reality. Believing that it WILL NEVER HAPPEN TO YOU is nothing else but UTOPIA. Cotinues

Let me tell you a little about Society Double Standards, here in Australia recently a TV commercial has been taken off the air, this particular commercial was (in my opinion) so cute, so beautiful, the music, the scenery the participants, everything was merged in the most beautiful way possible. BUT, the participants (actors) where 2 small children aged approximately 3, a little girl and a little boy, both wearing nappy and a singlet, they where shown driving a car, surfing, laughing, hugging one another, it was absolutely beautiful, it made my day each time it was broadcasted, YET it was taken out, Robert you know the reason why it was taken out? Guess you dont, well let me tell you why, it was taken out because ENCOURAGED PHAEDOPHILIA. For God sake Robert, what's the difference between an adult wearing almost nothing, an adult stroking a shampoo can as if it was a P... an adult driving a car and moaning as she is having an orgasm and many more commercials alike. Isnt it true that those adult commercial might just ENCOURAGE a rapist to just go out and rape someone? In my humble opinion "YES" it does, what's wrong with society today? Everyone is gone mad, the double standard of today is unbereable to say the least. How can anyone look at those 2 children and think of something so horrific as the people responsible for taking it off the air did? Robert I am not sure of having been able to express my opinion, I personally think like you, but I am not a criminal and although accused of I am not a rapist either. I beg you to understand that this world is not made of decent human beings only, but there's millions of criminals and rapist out there, and women have a responsibility to protect themselves from those kind of people, believing that will never happen to them is not an excuse to go out almost naked, just like any other adult has the responsibility to protect his property from burglars, no difference at all.

Max, I am going to try to take this gently because I don't want to add to your pain, but I am afraid that what I am about to say will upset you.

In your earlier posts you spoke about the woman who falsely accused you of rape is the same one that you had a 20 year sexual relationship with, she came to your house for sex as she did every week and then cried rape the last time. Don't you think that this may also be a reason for your family breakup - that you had a 20 year sexual affair with a woman not your wife?

I am sorry, but your own situation demonstrates the double standards that you deplore and also reflects on the choices that you made. If people are raped, robbed etc etc because of their dress or that they leave their front door open, then don't you think that you should take responsibility somewhat for your situation now? You are in it because of lack of judgement in having an affair in the first place.
I have spoken about this on another thread, the fact that men seem to be attracted to manipulative, vindictive women and then cry foul when they show their true colours. Men have to become smarter!

By the way, I thought that they took that ad off the air because of the recent deaths of several toddlers who were playing in cars. I can think of two cases off the top of my head.

Max, on the add issue it was my impression from what I'd read that it was taken off the air because of the road safety issue as well.

On the issue of revealing clothes etc, I agree in part but also think context matters. We all need to take responsibility for the risks we expose ourselves too, that means an educated guess about the level of risk and the consequences. That is reality.

Having said that the manufacturers of the brand of car I drive spend money on promotion, doing what they can to make their brand more appealing. Should I protest because that may make my car a greater target for thieves? Should I have the car repainted to make it less attractive and reduce the risks of theft?

I've put effort into making my home more appealing even though that may increase the risk of attracting thieves.

Life is a balance between freedom and risk, I'm not convinced that in most circumstances revealing clothes alter the risk for women.

Lizzie, I get your point about matching up with those kind of women but my impression is that a lot of us did not know that side of them when we got involved. Good manipulators can be quite good at hiding it. The trouble is that by the time you find that stuff out it's too late. Most of the guy's I've heard from on that topic are more frustrated by the government bias and inteference which tips the balance, not so much by an unwillingness to accept that they made a mistake.

R0bert

I get your last point Robert, however my experience has been that women tend to show their true colours very early in a relationship. However, it is a problem that men tend not to think with their heads.

Men are supposed to be rational creatures and that is a primary reason for the power differential between men and women that is still in society today. Men are considered to be rational, women are emotional.

However what is lacking is that men need to think more rationally about the repercussions of their actions and look at what may happen down the line if they ignore warning signs. I have spoken to so many men about problems with exs and I think well, it is obvious to me that there would be trouble.

My point is, and maybe I am voicing it clumsily, is that it is very hard to change government focus or laws for that matter. What is easier and maybe more effective is for men to start taking their own advice. That is to take responsibility themselves for their actions and choices.

RObert/Celivia. Your assertions are incorrect. You have not disputed the points I raised and how you two drew the conclusions about my position from my posts is beyond me.

I still think that your position and comparison are not reasonable. RObert the premises on which you form your syllogism (not that there are many) are just not valid assumptions. That is an opinion – not an allegation. Your argument rests on the, I think, flawed assumption, that the two are comparable in the first place. I gave some of my reasons above. Again: being raped is directly physical, threatening as well as mental. The reasons men rape are different than those of why women make false accusations of rape. Rape and male violence is far more prevalent than false accusations. The process at a police station is very thorough and it is more likely that a genuine rape victim would not have police proceed because of the need for doubtless evidence and reliable witnesses. A more logical comparison would be: “Is a false accusation of rape as bad as having police not proceed with a complaint because of a lack of evidence or witnesses?”

RObert/Celivia have tried to make out that people who disagree with them were born yesterday, blindly follow feminist thought or are so non-self reflectionist that they patronise women because they think women are precious etc. Irony here - it's a load of patronising rubbish in itself.

Why does it irritate you so much RObert when men, as humanitarians, (feminism is informed by humanitarian ideals) speak on women’s issues or for rape victims? I think it indicates a sexist attitude towards men here. It is my opinion and it is damn well self evident that comparing a rape to an accusation of rape is illogical, inflammatory and, I think downright, pathological. It shows a complete lack of understanding of women’s issues.

Moreover, it pits one group of victims against another. That is morbid and callous. It would have been more sensible and compassionate to just ask: “Does false accusation of rape need more consideration…?”

Lizzie, My son was falsely accused by his 11 year old cousin, who claimed she was raped so she could attend a party. Her mother and I stopped speaking two years earlier when I threatened to report her for child abuse. I have no doubt she put her child up to the accusation. This same woman had her husband's sister arrested for drunken driving after an argument. She claimed the 5 year old neighbor boy raped her 4 year old daughter after she got into an argument with his mother. She claimed to have been raped when her parents caught her sneaking into the house as a teenager. She learned at an early age what a marvelous weapon accusations can be.

I guess you could claim it was MY fault for marrying a neurotic woman's brother. I 'attract' men with mentally ubalanced sisters?

Give me a break.

Maxx - women have been raped from the beginning of time - long before TV commercials. Long before short skirts. Women wearing burkas are raped. 80 year old women are raped - NOT because they wear short skirts, I hope!

Rape is about anger, power and control. So are false accusations, no doubt.

Give ME a break onlyone. My comments to Max were posted because his argument about double standards was flawed due to his own situation. That is how I saw it anyway. As for my comments to Robert, this was about men recognising manipulative women and taking steps to think before they get involved.

Your 16year old son and an 11 year old child is a different matter altogether. That is not about men taking responsibility for the choices they make.

You seem to be intent on making this argument about you. Maybe you feel some guilt about your son being in this situation. If it was me and my son yes, I would definitely feel that I had not done enough to protect him from a woman who is obviously troubled from the history you have given of your sister-in-law's behaviour.

By the way I find it impossible to believe your assertion that being raped as a child is not as damaging to you as the fact that your son has been falsely accused. You have spoken of this as just an aside. It is this viewpoint that you have promoted however, that leads me to think that this is the reason why you summarily dismiss the situation of the 11 year old in question.

I don't think women who get beaten by men are to blame because they don't magically recognize a bad man when they encounter - at least not when they are young or inexperienced.

And oh, certainly, Lizze, I blame myself for not magically knowing 30 years into my marriage my husband's sister would do such an evil thing.

Things like that are tricky to predict for most of us.

Few have your magical knowledge.

It would never happen to someone with YOUR ESP powers, Lizzie, but if your son was falsely accused of such a horrific thing, I gonna bet big money that you would feel every bit like I do - provided you had a son, and you are capable of feeling for someone other than yourself.

I've experienced BOTH situations. Unlike you. I'm not just 'guessing' about it. I'm talking about something I have actual knowledge of.

Experiencing a given situation is a powerful eye opener. I know you feel your speculations are enough to transend the actual experience, but truly - they aren't.

Like a starving person describing hunger to a bloated obese person - you really just don't 'get it'.

Should you live through both experiences and want to tell me how it REALLY feels - fine, Lizzie. We'll talk.

You are not even trying to understand what I am getting at. That is OK, you are obviously using this thread to vent your anger. I feel sorry for you and your son. I also feel sorry for the little girl. There is nothing that I can say that will get through the wall of righteousness? guilt? denial? that you have obviously built. It is apparent that you are not open to debate. So I am not even going to try...

What's to 'debate'? Go to jail for something you didn't do, THEN you can 'debate' me intelligently and knowledgeably about how 'bad' it is or isn't.

I feel sorry for the little girl, too. She too was used and abused. She was a neglected little girl trying to please her mother. I bear her no ill will.

And yes. As I have never denied - I'm as angry about this as any other person who has been violated. Do you really think any person wouldn't be angry about it? You really have no comprehension of the magnitude of something like this, do you?

Consider yourself lucky. Truly.

onlyone, Lizzy - I'm trying to get my head around where your argument has come from. From the outside I'm not so sure that you are poles apart. Can you both please step back and reread the others posts in context.

From my perspective Lizzy does have a point about the choices we make, I agree in part but also don't like what it does to me when I am too focussed on looking for the give aways. I also find it difficult to spot the difference between human frailty and skilled manipulation. Somewhere in there is a balance that we all need to find.

Ronnie, when you are ready to stop playing your nasty games let me know, in the mean time I'm not paying much attention to your posts. It's too easy to waste a lot of mental and emotional energy on someone who is focussed on point scoring rather than honest discussion.

R0bert

I have let this post alone for a while because of all the personal emotions and religious talking involved.
Both Max and Onlyone are going through a very rough and painful stage and it can be easy to judge without knowing every detail.

Ronnie, while I do understand your points, I think we just look at it from different perspectives, no big deal.
I would not deny that rape occurs far more often than false accusations and am convinced that many rapes are not even being reported.
We should not forget that a woman ALWAYS knows when a rape is a rape, which is not always as clear to men.

I must admit that your suggestion that
“Does false accusation of rape need more consideration…?” would perhaps have been a better title in hindsight, but I think RObert said somewhere he took this statement from another discussion because it became a subtopic there.

Anyway, here's an article that I thought would be interesting to you all:
http://www.glennsacks.com/research_shows_false.htm

"Research Shows False Accusations of Rape Common.

...In her recent Daily Journal column, high profile feminist professor Wendy Murphy dismisses the problem of false accusations as an "ugly myth," and calls for "boiling rage" activism to address what she perceives as the anti-woman bias of the criminal justice system. Like many victims' advocates, Murphy cannot seem to fathom the possibility that Bryant could be innocent. However, research shows that false allegations of rape are frighteningly common.

According to a nine-year study conducted by former Purdue sociologist Eugene J. Kanin, in over 40 percent of the cases reviewed, the complainants eventually admitted that no rape had occurred...
Kanin also studied rape allegations in two large Midwestern universities and found that 50 percent of the allegations were recanted by the accuser.

Kanin found that most of the false accusers were motivated by a need for an alibi or a desire for revenge,,,"

Read the whole article on the site...running out of space.

You know what Robert? I don't know where the argument has come from either. I have read the other posts to see what others and I have said and I am no wiser. However, I am not going to participate any more.

Your point about human frailty and manipulation is interesting. The information that I have received from male friends, colleagues and family members - and this seems to be a commonality - is that they see themselves as knights in shining armour rescuing damsels in distress who have been used and abused by wicked men. This may sound a bit harsh, but this seems to be a common perception that men have.

Whether this image is chosen deliberately by some women, I don't know but I would hazard a guess and say yes. This is not to say that some have had bad experiences and need rescuing and live happily ever after. And I can understand why making the distinction between frailty and manipulation would be uncomfortable for you. Nobody wants to prejudge and think the worst of someone. We also forget that rescuing is something that men love to do and it is one reason why women love them so much. It is a sad world that we live in though, when the rescued abuses the rescuer. And it seems to be happening more and more.

Celivia, welcome back.

I've pondered the original topic a bit in light of Lizzy's comments earlier in the thread. It may be a perception issue but I think it was valid because of the subtopic on the newsworthy rape thread.

In some ways it's a retorical question with no real answer, it will always depend on the situation. Others seem to have most clearly answered the question in the negative.

A couple of posters have made it quite clear that a false allegation cannot be as bad as being raped.

My understanding is the the most damaging consequences of rape are not the physical but the emotional and psychological, the sense of loss of safety, loss of control, the distrust of others, the impact on the ability to form healthy relationships. In some cases self blame may also be a significant factor when none is warranted.

It seems to me that those falsly accused can go through similar.

I get rather concerned when I see some willing to ignore the plight of one group because they percieve that to acknowledge that group may undermine the plight of another. The dismissal of the plight of those falsly accused seems to me to be in that category.

Those who claim that false accusations are very rare, easily weeded out and not all that harmfull are then in a stronger position to modify our court processes to protect the "victim" from the pain of the process while reducing the opportunity for the accussed to defend themselves.

The questions that stays with me in this is what can we do to ensure that the legal process does no unnecessary harm to genuine victims and also does no unnecessary harm to those falsly accussed?

How do we provide backout options for those who have made false accusations so that they are more willing to recant if their conscience gets to them?

How do we protect those falsly accused from the mud that seems to stick?

How can we better protect against both rape and the abuse of the legitimate stigma which that crime has?

R0bert

My son's accuser tried to back out. The prosecutor told her parents it was either him or them - SOMEone was going to 'pay'. They of course, chose to throw a 16 year old kid under the bus, rather than risk the spotlight turned upon themselves.

The police investigators get career perks for sucessful convictions of this kind. The prosecutors get career advances for convictions. Same for Judges. In my son's hearing, a group of women, called 'Court Watchers' attended, boxes of Kleenex at the ready. They didn't know the accused, the accuser, or the case - they were there to see the Judge they elected made a decision in their 'favor' - to convict. The sobbing and kleenex waving stopped when discussions surronding the child's virginity, the accused's truthful/innocent polygraph exam - then high fives all around when the Judge 'did the right thing' and sentenced him to jail, and ordered him to confess the crime. Illegal, unconstitutional, immoral - but it makes the advocates happy, and gets elections won.

Perhaps BOTH accused AND accuser should undergo polygraphs. It's every bit as traumatic for the accused to be polygraphed, as the accuser. There's no concern for the accused's mental or emotional state, even though they may be a child themself.

Children under the age of 11 cannot be punished for lying in court, but as I said before, her parents were threatened. Rightfully, they SHOULD have been.

My son unexpectedly encountered the family a few years back, at an airport. They tried to hug him, tell him they were sorry "Just let it go".

Sad thing is, they loved my son, and he loved them. They were so focused on trying to hurt me, and get rid of me, they didn't think about the consequences for him

We can daydream of a better time where these situations won't happen, but that's not going to happen anytime soon.

For my son, all he can do is whatever it takes to maintain his self respect and dignity. He has a beautiful girlfriend who loves him. A family that never doubted him - I'm talking about all his other aunts, uncles and cousins on MY side of the family. Over 30 people wrote letters on his behalf. His teacher, church minister, and a friend's father (a psychiatrist) flew out of state to testify on his behalf. (The court declared my son a criminal genius who was fooling everybody except those who profitted from believing the accuser).

All that isn't enough when a stranger sees his photograph on the internet. All that does not mean a thing when he has to fill out a job applicatiuon stating he is a listed sex offender. When he is pulled over by the police and searched.

All you can do is cry to heaven, and pray for mercy.

All you can do is not allow yourself to hate or become bitter - not to allow yourself to be forever damaged by those who would enjoy your demise.

It takes forgiveness. It takes faith. It takes true character.

It's a feat of biblical magnitude to acomplish. Only time will tell...

Thank you one and all for your participation, I am not goping to go into details and mentione each and everyone point of view, it is after all a point of view and in a democratic society we must accept both criticism as well as understanding. But must make some points in relation to some of the comments, Lizzie, you are absolutely right, no one else is to blame but myself for the situation I am in right now, yes you are right again, I cheated not only on my wife but my whole family, I am willing and in fact paying the consequences right now and I fully deserve it. I joined this conversation simply because of the fact it is related to false accusations of rape and the turmoil anyone find himself in. I know that very old women are raped every day, of course I know that, I am not blind and neither deaf, the fact remain and Absolutely confirm right here right now that PERHAPS just perhaps a rapist that commit such an horrific crime towards an older woman maybe, just maybe is ALSO (not only) due to the fact that he's been out and about watching YOUNGER women wearing those so called skirts, the mind of that sick man was triggered and he had to find someone to satisfy his sick needs. Remember my point guys, the honest and caring human being, when looking at a beautiful young woman wearing short skirts or revelaing clothes, will look at her with admiration, perhaps thinking how lovely would be to have her as his comapanion, he will never thing about raping that young woman, he is civilized, he knows the times we live in and the freedom we all should enjoy and he respect each and everyone else's freedom as he expects for hius freedom to be respected, BUT THE RAPIST he doesnt see it that way, he is sick in his mind, women should never be afraid of wearing revealing clothes. Continues....

Continued....BUT and I repeat we live in a world made of civilized people unfortunately the world is also full of uncivilized and sick minded people which includes rapist, THE RAPIST DOES NOT see that young and beautiful woman; so to conclude, as Robert said when a woman wears revealing clothes there never an excuse for raping her I absolutely agree, but as I mentioned before leaving the house door open shouldn’t excuse being burgled, yet it happens, so my conclusion is be aware and try to protect your own self as you protect your properties and belongings, YOU BODY is part of that.
For you all to know, some developments related to my case, my barrister as asked and obtained an adjournment as he intend calling few witnesses, will let you know how all goes when the time come. Again that you all who contributed to this forum, rest assured that when I read the comments I somehow feel better, thank you all.
P.S. Please let this be an exchange of opinions, no one should believe that his/her opinion is the right one, I sure love reading all others opinions and accept it as they are meant to be.

I am so glad Max, that you did not take my opinions badly. I felt guilty after sending my comment that I may have presumed too much and been a bit harsh. I hope things go well for you.

I actually agreed with much of what you said to Maxx, Lizzie.

Women have been raped from the beginning of time, long before short skirts. Women in countries where they wearing burkas are raped. Rape isn't about short skirts, and I find it disgusting you keep trying to blame the victim by saying such a thing.

I will not allow the victim of false accusation to blamed, either. They cannot possibly 'know' what woman is neurotic enough to tod that, and which are not - in my son's case, it was ME that angered a neurotic woman, not him.

Our neighbor girl made a rape accusation, then recanted a few weeks later. Everyone was angry at her, and her family sold their hom and moved because of it.

The only person who defended her was my son. Himself falsely accused, he continued to befriend her when everyone else scorned her.

When I asked why, he told me she had been telling the truth - she HAD been raped. He knew the boy accused, how he spoke about women, how he treated them. The girl had agreed to meet him in an empty field to smoke marijuana, then raped her. His Aunt was a police officer who 'investigated'the rape, and intimidated the girl into recanting by threatening her with drug pocession charges. Her father was in the Army and couldn't afford the scandal.

Yet my son is a 'listed' sex offender, and this girl's rapist goes around saying he was falsely accused

Frankly, it creeps me out that you continue to make those victim blaming statements about shorts skirts, Maxx.

You may be a false accusation victim, but blaming the victim is a rapist's mentality.

Unlike rape victim's advocates,and God knows *I* know people are falsely accused, I don't give anyone a blanket "I BELIEVE YOU" stamp of approval.

It's a complicated issue.

Max's comments creep me out too. Just to clarify, I stand by what I said to him. I was not sure about the way that I said it in reflection. I feel the same way about my comments to you onlyone.

Max, I don't enjoy this process much - you seem to be in a very difficult place but your focus on womens clothing does not paint you in a good light. That may be a generational thing but it sits poorly in my mind as well.

Your point about taking precautions has some validity, sometimes the retoric does go too far and ignores reality. You appear to be taking it in the other direction.

To use the locked property analogy - if the people in the next suburb over (expensive mansions etc) leave their houses unlocked then the old place in my street which has a large fence and is locked is at greater risk of being burgled than it would otherwise be.

As other writers have pointed out rape has been with us for a very long time.

I 've often wondered if body taboo's contribute to rape rather than discourage it. Do western countries with more open attitudes to sexuality have higher or lower incidence of rape than western countries with strong body taboo's? I've seen some material on teenage pregnancy and social attitudes to sexuality which suggests that suppression does real harm.

R0bert

Robert,
‘rape’ seems to have become a subtopic on this thread and ‘false accusations of rape’ became a subtopic on the thread of ‘rape’. Perhaps it’s hard to discuss one without discussing the other? I haven’t actually been on the original thread.

“How do we protect those falsely accused from the mud that seems to stick?
How can we better protect against both rape and the abuse of the legitimate stigma which that crime has? “
These are the questions that we need to focus on. I don’t know the answer.
I have tried to search for books on this topic but only found one in Dutch which has wonderful reviews (titled, translated, “False Sins”) written by a lawyer who specialises in false accusation of rape cases. He describes a few cases that probably wouldn’t be much different to the case of Onlyone’s son, and about the traumatic effects it has on the falsely accused victims.
From the abstract I can make out that vendetta, spite, reputation and regret (changing one’s mind afterwards of having sex) are the strongest reasons for false accusations.
The book points out the double morals held by police and society and the justice system, the long, traumatic and needless procedures, inept skills and training of lawyers and social workers to deal with this and he ends the book with a chapter of advice on how he proposes changes for improvement.

Shame that there is no English translation and I wonder if there would be a similar book on the topic in English. Perhaps I’ll order it one day.

Here's statistics on Rape by Country although they are from 2000 and we must keep in mind it shows only REPORTED rapes.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap-crime-rapes

to be continued

Max, I have to agree with onlyone and Lizzie that your comments about women’s outfits are inappropriate.
You sound not much different from one of the controversial Muslim clerics here in Australia:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20646437-601,00.html
>>Sheik Hilali said: "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?
"The uncovered meat is the problem."
The sheik then said: "If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred." <<

Re-think what you have said, Max, or read up on it to inform yourself because your opinion, that rape victims are in any way to blame because of the clothes they wear, is incorrect. Women’s clothes, or lack of them, do not cause rape. Men are to blame for rape, not their victims.
That you blame young women for the rape of the elderly is beyond me.
So if I go out to the shops on a hot day in my shorts and strapless top, or a summer dress, and I hear on the news that night that a 90-year-old woman in that area has been raped, I should feel guilty because it might have been my outfit that might have encouraged a rapist?

Perhaps you also think that shop managers are to blame for shoplifting and general theft and burglary because they display things in their windows?
Perhaps shops should cover their windows with black sheets and there wouldn’t be thieves?

I am terribly sorry if I offended anyone, I knew my comments would have been misunderstood and in fact they have been. I am a very well educated man, University graduate and also did a short course in psychology; I am so badly hurt for all of you not really UNDERSTANDING what I wrote, you all took everything out of context and only read and remembered the words related to women choice of
clothes nowadays, no one has read and kept in mind any other word I spoke in my comments. I have a young daughter, I sent her dancing when she was 13 years of age and that was 27 years ago, short skirts where in use back then. Continues Continued... I never stopped my daughter wearing a short skirt or a revealing blouse, I simply made sure she understood that what she was wearing could have been misinterpreted by a sick minded person, wanted to make sure she knew how to look after herself and what to look for when she was out, so stop condemning me for saying what I said and repeat once again just in case you misunderstood the first time. I personally have nothing against what women wear, never have, never will, but although accused of rape, I am NOT a rapist I admire beauty and I also admire style. The fact remain that not all men are decent human beings and if you believe even for a minute that what I said is not true then you don’t live in this world but you all live in a world called UTOPIA. I repeat and reaffirm not my view guys but my CONCERN, and that is that wearing such revealing clothes COULD trigger a sick minded person a rapist. NEVER intended to IMPLY anything else but just that, if I offended anyone again I am sorry but this is today's society, today's world and none of us will be able to change it. Do you honestly believe I like being here talking about this? Continues...

Continued No I am not and as the topic original stated I am here because falsely accused of RAPE, I will fight this and hopefully will win in court, BUT, will that satisfy me?
ABSOLUTELY NOT, no woman or man for that matter should be allowed to accuse anyone of rape and then not paying the consequences if the allegations are not true, when this will be over, the person that accused me will continue enjoying her life just as she has done since the allegations.
She never missed a day's work, never been to see a psychologist, going dancing ever week end, she is enjoying life as if nothing has ever happened, what about me guys? WHAT ABOUT ME AND MY FAMILY?
My wife didn’t deserve to be cheated on, my children didn’t deserve to be cheated on, I cheated on them for 20 years and I am paying dearly for that, but RAPE? How do you thing my son, my daughter, my granddaughters will live their life from now on? Unfortunately I am a very well known person within a particular section of the community, for this reason alone my children and grandchildren will suffer for the rest of their life. The cheating could have been swept under the carpet so as to speak in the sense that not many had to know, the RAPE charges are very hard to sweep under anything. Continues

You know Maxx, you declared yourself a man of God, a true believer...then you said you had an on going affair for 20 years.

You said a false accuser caused you to lose your marriage, and you no longer have faith in God...yet you had an ongoing affair for 20 years!

I encouraged you to turn to God, to believe in God, to listen to God. You responded that you had - but God didn't come through for you.

I'm telling you right now, God's talking to you, and you aren't listening.

I find your comments about women's clothing repugnant. I find your claim to be a man of God repugnant.

I think you need an epiphany...

".... when you are ready to stop playing your nasty games let me know, in the mean time I'm not paying much attention to your posts. It's too easy to waste a lot of mental and emotional energy on someone who is focussed on point scoring rather than honest discussion." My thoughts exactly.

Are you Downer's PR.? For someone who is supposedly concerned about false allegations you are pretty good at making them yourself, RObert. At the very same time you are accusing me of making false allegations you are making one. For instance, when you say I’m making false allegations and nasty you are making a false allegation. You're unbelievable. Very subtle - you want the high ground you'll have to earn it.

It is not a reasonable comparison. The inevitable playing off of feeling against one another is obvious.

I made my views very clear on people making false allegations in earlier posts when I explained the wrongness of the wife-beater allegation. And I also made clear with my comments on a thread I posted, which was a news report of a woman who falsely accused a person of rape.

You're trying very hard to portray me as "nasty" as someone who spins off "false allegations" that's all you've done for the last few posts you've addressed to me. You haven't given one “for instance” because you know very well that is not the case. I've been trying to get you to see that sensitive issues like this are best kept apart or you will give people the impression that they are in opposition. Moreover, you may be contributing to a culture (that conservatives are trying to create) that tends to dismiss complaints of rape as just women making up stories. When men are called to account for an alleged rape the first thing they do is accuse the complainant of making a false complaint. This, for some reason, doesn’t even come onto RObert’s radar. How do you think they feel? If that is nasty than faaackenell Robert - you’re impossible.

The most important point I want to make is that the insensitive idea of a comparison between two traumas from RObert, an apparently sensitive person (I’m reconsidering this opinion), can’t even see - such is the socialisation of our society - that to regard rape in such a blasé manner is the norm. Indeed, to draw a comparison with another related trauma in itself shows how “everyday” rape has now become - and well trivialised. This must not happen. It has deep societal ramifications that go to the very freedom of women's movement and other equality issues.

Yes, false accusations are wrong and create feelings of injustice. False accusations of rape and false accusations of faalse accusations are mentally damaging if the person is not cleared/convicted (I’ll let RObert continue to state the obvious in relation to that). and even if they are cleared/concvicted – this is why we have sub-judice laws and supposedly responsible media editors. Yes people are wrongfully convicted and that is wrong and must be avoided at all costs. But remember criminals also get away with murder because they know how to play the system. And a police officer told me that. Also wealthy people can hire lawyers who don’t consider mental anguish of the complainant in the methods they use.

It is patently obvious to anyone that the feelings of injustice and anguish are similar. But the circumstance surrounding them and the wider consequences are different and I think that, given certain posters' penchant for trying to destabilize women's voice, my complaint in the original thread stands and I haven't seen any evidence from RObert to support the reasonableness or compassion of the comparison (or allegations of nastiness or the making of false allegations).

RObert the last thing I’d do is waste my time scoring points on such a serious issue. For you to say so is a truly low act and only furthers belief that you have little understanding of the feelings and mental anguish of crime victims. Look outside your own unresolved feelings and stop thinking with that chip on your shoulder?

I'm a woman who has experienced the effects of both being molested, and having someone falsely accused.

Certainly the first thing an accused person says is "I didn't do it". Trouble is, what else would a person who didn't do it say?

You want to discuss insensitivity, obliviousness, and lack of compassion, try being an innocent person targeted for vengeance by a false accuser.

If you need to vent and fume your anger and victimhood, there are hundreds of thousands of man-hater sites with willing 'friends' to sooth and comfort you.

For victims of false accusations, there are rare few, and regularly attacked from 'victims' declaring the need for all 'victims' to be believed.

I wonder how many 'survivor' sites have the falsely accused screaming for them to keep quiet about their experience? To disparage them for their 'insensitivity', or for having the NERVE to compare their pain as equal?

You need to experience a false accusation for yourself, my friend. THEN you may have the right to decree how others feel about the exerience.

For the record I'll post the orignal comment from the Newsworthy Rape thread which got me thinking that this topic discussion.

"What disappoints me about these discussion threads is that there seem to be a heap of people out there who seem to take the position that a false accusation is as bad as or worse than a violent rape. I think if you asked most people what they'd rather experience, the choice would be pretty clear." http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=5484#70061

I take the view that we do need to look at these types of issues as a complete picture. If we look in isolation then it's to easy to take measures to help one aspect of the problem while ignoring the impacts on other area. In this case measures taken to support those claiming to have been raped may impact on an innocent persons ability to defend themselves.

I'll accept the charge Lizzie has previously made that I've not really put the side of the argument about rape, from my perspective that's because I think that issue is fairly well covered elsewhere (but if Ronnie's comments about people becoming blase about rape then maybe that's not the case).

I've tried to keep the profile of the need for a balance between protecting actual victims from further harm and the right to the ability to defend your self. How do we achieve that?

Ronnie, if you want to contribute then please do so but if your posts continue to be primarily personal attacks on those who hold a different view to yourself then I will assume that you are more interested in point scoring than discussion. I'd rather have the discussion.

R0bert

Seether said: “What disappoints me about these discussion threads is that there seem to be a heap of people out there who seem to take the position that a false accusation is as bad as or worse than a violent rape. I think if you asked most people what they'd rather experience, the choice would be pretty clear.”

RObert, you need to consider this in the context of the “violent rape” outlined in the article being discussed.
“Take, for example, the case of Martin Giles. Around the time of the ABS Crime and Justice Survey, in October 1998, Martin Giles invited a friend for a ride in his car. They smoked some marijuana, and it appears there was some dispute about whether the young woman had paid for her share. Giles tried to start the car and when he could not do so, an argument ensued. He then strangled the woman with the tie of her tracksuit. He raped her twice while she was unconscious. We don’t know if he said anything about what he was about to do, or if he called her anything. Giles beat, stabbed and mutilated the woman, and when he had finished he inserted in her body the scissors he had used, and walked home.
In sentencing Giles, the judge refrained (as I have done here) from recounting all the facts of the rapes and murder because of their disturbing nature. Most of those facts can be consulted in case reports. The reports came up in an electronic search for cases containing the words “genital” and “mutilation”.
The rape of the young woman by Giles was not atypical in many respects. Indeed, when Giles appealed against the severity of his sentence, one of the appeal judges drew attention to the similarity of the case with other “appalling crimes of violence” committed by young men who had come before him. Giles and his victim were well acquainted: she was savagely and contemptuously betrayed by a man she knew and trusted.”
There is a third choice - neither. RObert you want discussion without opposing views expressed.

Continues from above (sorry but due to PC problems I was unable to post straight after my previous post)
My children and grandchildren will be known as the RAPIST family and that is absolutely a disgrace, the justice system don’t give a damn about the consequences of a person being falsely accused of rape, community will remember for a very long time to come. P.S. The reason why I know the woman lifestyle even now is simply because as I mentioned before I am very well know within a community section so many come to me trying to help, willing to testify in court the lifestyle this woman has been enjoying since the very first day after the allegations, I honestly believed till now that a victim of RAPE would have been somehow scarred for a while, not wanting to go anywhere or see anyone, especially men’s, obviously I watch too many movies. If you are going to bash me again for writing what I wrote please go ahead and do that but before doing it I beg you to read and understand the contents not just a single statement, that will be unfair. Whatever the case I believe of having said enough, I thank each and every one of you for your words kind or not kind I still thank you all and wish to each and every one of you to never be in my situation.
Celivia I do have a special comments for you, I feel very much offended of you comparing me with Sheik Hilali (or whatever his name was), you more than anyone else only read the words that interested you most, please go back and read the full post, understand it, then go ahead and offend me again if you feel it’s warranted.
Having said that, I do respect the opinion you have of me, I don’t have to necessarily agree with it.

Onlyone, dear friend, I really have no concerns if you find my comments about god repugnant, but I do have concerns about you finding my comments about women clothing repugnant, for you to do that it means you missed the CONTEXT of my comments, please read again then perhaps you will see that I DID NOT made any derogatory comments about women clothing, I only suggested that a woman should do her utmost to protect herself against the possibility of being molested (not necessarily raped) just as she would do her utmost to protect anything that belongs to her, like her car, her house, her purse, her handbag, to conclude what I have been trying to say has been completely misenterpreted by few, it doesn't matter though, I beg to differ and reaffirm that wearing revealing clothes MIGHT lead to troubles, NEVER meant to say that a woman wearing revealing clothes IS ASKING TO BE RAPED, I beg you all read all my posts again and again then condemn me if need be.
I will continue to read every post in here, I am not sure if will respond or comment any longer. Once again I beg your pardon if I offended anyone, I never meant to do any of that so please accept my sincere apologies if what I wrote offended anyone.

I was recently falsely accused in relation to a violent street offence in which I was actually the victim of a serious assault and also when I was involved with a lobby group the right-wing tossers slandered and harassed us so much that it nearly destroyed our marriage. I know how it feels to hear the direct lies and smear that people spread in a community; or be knocked out, a retina torn, teeth broken and then having the bully claim provocation. I was trying to leave when hit.

But these pale into insignificance compared to my background which has many unpleasant memories in relation to deviant male behaviour and attitudes towards women. My experience is probably more salient than Onlyone or RObert willl ever know.

Not comparable to rape and not comparable to being falsely accused of rape – but growing experiences nonetheless.

Having said that, researchers have shown that people with imagination and reasonable intellect can have empathy with harmed people.

Rape is a heinous crime and society, family and friends are more likely to lose a lot more from the escalation in rape cases than from false accusations. False accusations of rape are made in a controlled environment (police station or lawyer’s office) and thus are more manageable (for instance: introduce lie detectors). The rapist uses the streets- even people’s homes. There is little control before police involvement. Then the lawyers cometh, the accuser becomes the accused (on top of the physical damage and mental anguish of being raped victims also have the mental anguish of being accused of being a false accuser).

I once visited mentalwards regularly and there are a large number of women there because of mental trauma associated with rape, sexual assaults. I haven’t heard of one victim of mental illnes because of a false accusation. The carnage from rape is more prevalent in society than false accusations. Both are bad, both happen - a comparison of the two is inflammatory and unhelpful.

Onlyone said: “You need to experience a false accusation for yourself… ”

These are not words of goodwill or empathy.

Ronnie, "Both are bad, both happen - a comparison of the two is inflammatory and unhelpful." - to a large extent I agree. The part of this you seem to have missed is that the comparison has already been made by those suggesting that the plight of those falsly accused is less the plight of those suffering from violent rape. Seethers original comment and your own comments suggest a willingness to reach a conclusion to the question. From what I can find in the original article the only thing that came close to a comparison before Seether's comment was a comment by aqvarivs which I did not read as a comparison.

"One woman raped is one woman too many. Conversely one man falsely accused is one man too many." http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=5484#70053

I don't believe that we can reach a legitimate across the board answer to the question of which is worse, as I've said elswhere each case will be different.

I'm not aware of any studies which have attempted to do serious work on the impacts of false allegations on the accussed over time.

You may be correct when you say "The carnage from rape is more prevalent in society than false accusations." or it may be that "The carnage from rape is more conspicuous in society than false accusations." - I don't know the answer to that.

I suspect that in most cases for both rape victims and those falsly accussed the real damage is the long term stuff, not the actual act.

"Then the lawyers cometh, the accuser becomes the accused (on top of the physical damage and mental anguish of being raped victims also have the mental anguish of being accused of being a false accuser). "

Thats one of the issues I'm grappling with - how do we avoid adding insult to injury and still protect the rights of the accused to defend themselves? Clearly if a defendant claims not to have committed an offense then the accuser is being accussed of being a false accuser. I don't see any safe way out of that quandry.

R0bert

It's readily apparent you are a man hater, Ronnie. How sad for you to miss out on 1/2 of the world's population.

I have been abused severely by men - I served three years in the military, 30 years ago, when they could say and do pretty much whatever they chose to.

I certainly came away angry and disgusted with many - but certainly not all. For every wrong doer, there were wonderful, protective men.

I came of age in the States, where it was frequently declared the world would be such a better place if women ran it.

Women are in positions of power like never before in the history of this country.,..consequently, there are more men in prison in the USA than ever before in the history of this country, if not the world.

I'm thinking you are so repelled by men you will never become a mother of one. That's probably for the better.

Men have spent years in prison, for false accusations. Lynchings were once common in this country, when neurotic women targeted black men for accusations. Men have been raped, beaten to death, in prison - innocent men, Ronnie. INNOCENT men.

Men are forced to register, leave their wives and children,lose their jobs, live in disgrace, due to false accusations.

No one listens to their cries. They arent' allowed to complain - it 'offends' rape victims for their voices to be heard.

The bottom line is, Ronnie, YOUR chances of being a victim of false accusation -false RAPE accusation - are slim to none. YOU will never have something like that happen, therefore YOU are the blase one.

Women are in mental hospitals because of sexual abuse? Men are sexually abused, as well.

Men aren't in mental hospitals because of false accusations? Of course not, Ronnie. They are in PRISON. They are forced into lives of silent shame to protect themselves -like women once were.

Max,
The thing is, that even though you say that women should be free in their choice of clothes, you come up with ‘buts’ and ‘ifs’ to justify why they should NOT wear what they like. You believe that the clothes women wear influence a man to rape. This is not so.
Again: the clothes women wear have nothing to do with rape. Rape happens in countries where women fully cover themselves.

Rape happens in situations where the rapist sees an opportunity. Most rapes are planned in advance.
The rapist does not choose his victims according to their outfits. Rapists are out to look for available and vulnerable targets to intimidate.
Women are not safer if they stick to a certain dress code.

Not only sheikh al-Hilali blames women for rape and not only Muslim groups set codes of dress and behaviour for women.

Some fringe Christian groups subjugate women in their cult/sect to dress codes as well (e.g. the Exclusive Brethren, the Amish).
Dress codes for women are said to be some kind of protection for women. Dress codes always involve long skirts and this does not make sense at all.
Everyone knows that it’s much harder for a rapist to struggle with tight jeans or shorts than it is to lift up a long skirt.

It’s ironic that the sheikh,like you, also said that he had been misinterpreted, that his comments were read out of context.
Your as well as al-Hilali’s comments convey the message that women are somehow responsible for rape.

In your favour, your comments are not as strong and as obvious as al-Hilali’s and I do belief you have no intention to offend women. I think that you are just misinformed about why rapists rape.

Celivia you STILL got it wrong, how many times I have to SPELL OUT that when women wear revealing clothes DO NOT ASK to be RAPED, read again and this time try to UNDERSTAND.
I said CLEARLY that A RAPIST or sick minded man may believe she WANTS it, not a decent man, a decent man DOES NOT think that way, read again before condemning and AGAIN comparing me to the sheik.
I clearly said that any woman, any day, at any place whether she is wearing revealing clothes OR NOT might be so unfortunate to be meeting a rapist somewhere, what I MAINTAIN is that if that woman was wearing revealing clothes then the rapist wouldn't think twice to commit such an horrific crime. In HIS sick mind he believes that SHE WANTS IT.
DO YOU GET IT NOW? If not probably best for you to go back to school and learn some english.

RObert. That Seether was comparing the violent rape in the article with false accusations is obvious. Did you miss my post above? Seether’s response was to Aqvarivs’ negative politicking where he introduced some doubtful figures from the USA re: false accusations thereby creating a callous comparison.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=5484#70053

Seethers response is understandable given that the rape victim mentioned was murdered and her body mutilated. Aqvarivs insensitivity in light of this suggests a hardening to victims of particular crimes. I see this callousness in society increasing.

RObert said: “ I don't believe that we can reach a legitimate across the board answer to the question of which is worse, as I've said elswhere each case will be different.”

Then why would you even consider the comparison between two obviously painful experiences? It is not healthy for people to be reliving their painful experience on sites like this. Recent research has found that “letting things out” actually increases the anger and pain, especially when it is in an uncontrolled environment . Posting your personal life is very unwise if it is a way of finding peace, resolving some inner conflict or there is an expectation of rescue.

People who’ve experienced some painful experience would be better to share with friends or a professional. Studies have found that people under stress have more right brain activity. They tend to see catastrophe in the slightest misfortune, have higher incidence of depression, and get upset easily and just generally tend to be unhappy. It has been shown that people with a stronger left prefrontal cortex are usually happy. Experiments have shown that when exposed to, for instance, cheerful movies our left frontal cortex becomes more active. So affected posters, rather than trying to convince people that your pain is equal to someone else, best treat yourself as if you are a good person with nothing to be ashamed of. Do an activity that stimulates your left brain. Things like watching good cheerful movie - nourishing life-affirming things. Comparing your pain to others only increases your right brain activity and thus your unhappiness and anguish.

RObert . I stand by my posts. I’ve been careful to say that your arguments were not reasonable rather than unreasonable. I didn’t want to infer stubbornness, unfairness or a lack of intellect. I only wanted to comment on the lack of logic in presenting two opposing pains for scrutiny. Inevitably I knew affected people would join the fray and I fail to see any logic in pitting the two against each other. I did get caught up in the discussion re: the two situations. However, I only wanted to show the futility of it. I steered clear of actually comparing the actual pain.

RObert: “’The carnage from rape is more conspicuous in society than false accusations.’ ” Probably because it is actually more prevalent. So what? Both are harmful.

I don’t subscribe to the idea that feminists have hoodwinked women into using rape as a tool. The thing is Aqvarivs used some pretty dodgy figures and generalisations to compare the carnage from false accusations to violent rape. In light of the article and the rape mentioned in it, his post was insensitive and negative politics at its worse.

I haven’t come across any reliable figures for false allegations. I don’t think that there is any feminists’ conspiracy there. Police are across this problem and researching it must be very difficult. The insensitivity to rape victims is becoming more prevalent in society and police are assisting to create a culture where women are safe. It doesn’t follow that false allegations are not considered a problem.

Onlyone. Your assertions about me are incorrect. While I respect your victim status, maybe people would listen to your cries if you stated your case in a positive manner instead of using it as part of a personal attack.

RObert. A while ago I said something re: your ex-wife.

“ RObert you hide behind that non-de-plume to perhaps lie about your ex-wife and manipulate OLO posters (using HRS et al’s logic). I wouldn’t be taking your word for it…” I am sorry for suggesting that you would lie about your experience with your ex-wife.

Ronnie, thanks for the apology. I do agree with a lot of your last two posts. I'm still of the view that the plight of the falsly acussed has been judged as less than that of the violently raped and I don't believe that is always the case. We may have to differ on our views on that.

You may notice that in the post you provided a link to, you and I both were being addressed. I disagree with much of the opposition to the original article although I am not convinced by the racism perspective that the author holds.

I'm undecided about the worth/harm balance of sharing personal experience on sites like this. While my experiences have been very mild compared to that of some I've found having a place to have my say has been valuable (and it's given friends some respite). The annonomity of this has allowed me to talk about stuff that I would not do in a public forum if my identity was attached. It's given me a sense that I'm doing something (although small) about what I consider some fairly significant issues.

I also tend to hold the view that is better for people to have an outlet than to feel silenced or shut down. The bit where they can find others willing to listen. I don't always know how to do my part in that well.

Thanks for the considered tone of those posts.

R0bert

Max, I'm struggling to work out how to respond to the debate you have become embroiled in. I think I understand where you are coming from but I think the loadings that go with that particular topic make it very difficult to discuss.

That type of argument has been used by those seeking to repress women for so long now that it is difficult to say what I think that you are trying to say without introducing loadings that you may not intend. I hope I'm being fair in that, my own views correspond more closely to Celivia's on this than to yours but I am trying to understand your POV.

Despite my own penchant for drifting off the topic at hand I'm also wondering why it seems so important on what should be a topic about comparisons between rape and false allegations of rape.

It seems that there are a host of other potential contributers to rape that we could discuss off topic but none really help to stop people disregarding the plight of those falsly accussed.

It is true that we each need to do our own risk assessment based on the circumstances we find ourselves in, it's also true that there are some sick individuals out there who we cannot readily plan for nor protect ourselves against with certainty.

Despite all that we each need to get on with our lives without letting the possibility of terror entering our lives cripple us.

R0bert

RObert,
I have had a wonderful response from Chris Veraart the Dutch lawyer who specialises in false rape accusations and author of the book I was talking about.

I sent him an email to ask if there were any plans for translation in English and he responded by saying that it is hard to translate such book because justice systems vary in different countries, ( a French translator has attempted to translate it but has pulled out because it's just too hard) but he said that he may consider it, perhaps omitting the legal side which only applies to The Netherlands, but concentrating on the plight of the falsely accused person, who often has not much chance to plea his innocense.

He asked if I know of an Australian publisher that would support such book and I was wondering if you have any ideas? Which publishers would specialise or publish books like this?

I am not sure how fluent this author's English is, I will ask him. Perhaps he will be interested or able to contribute to this discussion.

He is a very busy man (as well as practising law he also writes for the media and educates investigators) so we'd be very lucky to have his input.

RObert and Celivia. Celivia I have never wanted to stop RObert or anyone else from speaking out as you claimed. I don't know where you got that idea. I have even suggested that anti-feminists (or whatever they are - the limitations of language can be annoying) would be better to write their own positive articles rather than playing at negative politics on women's issues threads. By all means comment but not in that accusatory way.

There are different ways to achieve the same end. I just think that there is a time and place for everything. We must not get so caught up in our own position to the point that we start disregarding the feelings of those supposedly on the other side who have been hurt. I don’t mind a bit of rumble, tumble but there are limits.

RObert is usually (he is human) ready to engage in debate without projecting his anger onto others. I am not intending to prevent RObert in his quest to raise consciousness about things like false allegations.

RObert, I know that it is a popular opinion to "get it out" or risk repressing the anger and I agree but before coming onto these sites it is best that that anger be brought out professionally or it may be unfairly projected onto posters who mean no harm and even have similar concerns. The repression theory has never been proven; whereas experiments have proven that we can enhance our happiness in the ways I mentioned. Buddhist monks have actually completely altered which side of the brain is dominant. So sometimes it is best just to do something positive and engage in this type of thing when you are well and truly ready. I guess it's about balance.

Celivia: A direct comparison of the pain is offensive and it is a part of my right to speak up to let RObert know that as well. Even the suggestion kind of trivialises the pain of both groups. I wouldn’t waste my time with RObert if I thought he intended malice (except on the odd angry heated exchange).

That RObert has for various reasons experienced an unfair or inefficient system and has decided to bring out certain issues is admirable. I also know what its like (not to the extent of some others) to think that we live in a fair and just world ; where if something goes wrong the government has procedures and measures to ensure we are treated fairly. Then to realise that it is all media hype and political posturing - to have that illusion well and truly blown apart - to realise that you are all alone and nobody believes you because the machine has convinced everyone that we live in a fair and just world where everyone is treated fairly and with goodwill; the only danger is from terrorists and criminals. To have friends make suggestions like: "Why don't you see your local member, or go to the media etc?" When you've tried everything. Or see that disinterested look in their eye that says “Yeah! Sure what ever you say." They think that there is a solution or a way to secure a fair go already in place. If you don't get a just outcome it must because you are at fault.

I'm interested in mass psychology. I think the problem with false allegations and rape has more to do with how we are conditioned to think. Take a look at history. What is it that causes societal breakdown and religions to lose credibilty? It is when we start adhering to the idea that the immediate end justifies the means.

A rapist and a false accuser both fit this category. They’re not concerned with your happiness nor the ultimate good or the greater good. Why? But wait just about everyone (masses) thinks this way. And it is getting worse all the time. So if we can create a culture where means must be goods as well – then you are half way there.

Societies leaders are not adhering to Principles in their means to immediate ends which in turn undermines the authority of the ultimate end which is to preserve these Principles.

Rape is not about sex, it's about anger, power and control - the same could be said for false accusation, as well.

You have not provided any 'proof' that this discussion 'trivilizes' anyone's pain. You continue to imply that the ordeal of false accusation is just not as monumental as the ordeal of rape - then you 'trivialize' by comparing some false accusation claim of your own.

We're talking about being accused of the most heinous, morally reprehensible crime known to mankind. Second only to murder, and some are now even claiming it to be WORSE than murder.

We're talking about something you can't defend yourself against. This is something that even if proven false, you are still considered guilty.

I would like to hear you tell a rape victim they would get more 'sympathy' if they weren't angry. I would like to hear you tell a rape victim their pain isn't worthy of respect or consideration.

You really don't 'get it', ronnie.

Onlyone If you don’t regard the comparison as offensive that is your choice. Considering your supposed experience I question why a person who has supposedly endured both offences is so callous to the feelings of others. I think that the comparison is a bit like comparing Hiroshima to the Jewish holocaust. You don’t need to pit one against the other.

Moreover, the proof I’ve provided is comparable to yours given that you haven’t actually been falsely accused of rape yourself. You’re a female with second hand experience. So, for you,I speaking from my experience trivialises your pain; but your speaking doesn’t trivialise others is okay is not logical. I wasn’t even referring directly to pain but to the system that makes it impossible for people like you to get a fair go. I was actually considering your plight –not directly comparing.

You say I continue to “imply that the ordeal of false accusation is just not as monumental as the ordeal of rape - then you 'trivialize' by comparing some false accusation claim of your own.”

I said: “I also know what its like (not to the extent of some others)”. Your claim that I compared a false accusation of my own with rape or your false accusation claim is not true. I’ve been careful to note this throughout.

Having said this, I think I’ve seen enough of the carnage of rape to form and opinion. My opinion that the comparison is callous is just that - it is my opinion if you think it is unfair than so be it. It’s callous to compare because it does indeed suggest that one or the other is more monumental than another. That’s my point. It will either offend the victim of rape; or rape victims who see the rapist get away with it; or the falsely accused who end up in prison. Your posts have proven this.

I haven’t seen too much proof from You onlyone either. Your experience is representative of you alone. My experience tells me that most rape victims and especially those who have had the pain of seeing a rapist getting away with it, would regard such a comparison a callous. I think your average person would too. That is an opinion.

Moreover, I’ve had enough life experience to tell whether something is appropriate or not. The comparison was with a women who was murdered and then brutalised. Aqvarivs (do you know him?) had the insensitivity to bring the false accusation into it. Seether suggested that the false accusation would be better than being raped. In light of the brutal rape mentioned in the article that is a fair comment. I am not going to compare the pain from these two things. I think I do “get it” to the extent that I have a right to suggest RObert ere on the considerate side.

To my understanding, you are not just talking about a false accusation of rape onlyone you are talking of false allegation that saw a person charged, convicted and then jailed. Also, to my understanding you were molested (which you upgraded to or compared to being violently raped here) and you choose not to pursue the matter because that was the culture of the military then. You’ve done well to recover, if that’s the case, but that doesn’t mean that all women are as resilient as you. Some never get over it.

Now by saying that doesn’t mean I am comparing that to the feelings of an innocent person who has been found guilty.

Clearly, if you are not some anti-feminist scamming us, the person you’re referring has had his life ruined. How is it going to help the situation by saying it is either better or worse or comparable to being raped? If a feminist made such a claim, I think you’d be firing your bullets at them for suggesting the same thing that RObert has.

Your anger and confusion is proof that the comparison has had negative results.

Ronnie, you made the comment to Celivia, "A direct comparison of the pain is offensive and it is a part of my right to speak up to let RObert know that as well. Even the suggestion kind of trivialises the pain of both groups."

I don't like to keep laboring the point but it seems to me that the comparison had already been made in Seethers original comment "there seem to be a heap of people out there who seem to take the position that a false accusation is as bad as or worse than a violent rape. I think if you asked most people what they'd rather experience, the choice would be pretty clear"

If comparisons trivialise pain then the claim trivialised the pain of those falsly accussed. The comment stuck out enough to me that to ignore it would have been to further trivialise the pain of that group. As you point out I am human - I won't pick up on every issue that should be addressed or try and right every wrong but this seemed important.

I think that Seether made the comment in good faith and may not have had knowledge of the harm suffered by victims of false allegations.

Celivia, thanks for doing the research. I've not got knowledge of Australian publishers covering that kind of material, I'll keep that in mind.

The only english language info I found on Chris's book was on a site with fathers in the URL (unlikely to impress those who don't already agree). www.fathers.ca/abuse_stories.htm for those who are willing to allow for possible bias.

I also found the a comment on the law firm Chris is a partner of at(http://www.australiansabroad.com/oz/hollandsite/health.html) - search for Chris's name on the page. For dutch readers try http://www.vdgnp.nl/ for the firms site but I've got no idea what it says.

R0bert

As I've stated before, Ronnie - I've lived through BOTH experiences. I can say any day, any time, I would rather have someone steal from me, than to be falsely accused of being a theft. I'd rather be raped, then to be forever branded a rapist, AND I'll go so far as to say I'd rather be murdered, than executed for a murder I didn't commit.

Nothing gets you 'recovered' quicker than adversity.

I'm talking about comparing apples to apples, here. To compare'Violent rape' to some ugly rumour that goes nowhere is no comparison. Being violently raped, or being violently raped in prison as an innocent person falsely accused is an accurate comparison.

Spending a lifetime in prison for something you didn't do compares pretty accurately to spending a lifetime as 'a victim'.

The huge difference is, you can have some control over your reaction to rape. You can choose to let it define your entire life, or not. Being in prison for something you didn't do defines you as an isolated prisoner, and there is NO way out...

There are people released from prison after decades of incarceration who FORGAVE their false accusers, who went on to live what was left of their lives in peace and harmony. Not because it's not as damaging. It's because there's no crippling pity party for the falsely accused -ever.

That's perhaps the only 'advantage' if you will...

You are apparently not a mother, Ronnie. You don't sound like a woman who has any relationship with men -or maternal instinct or bonds.

This was no 'second hand' experience. I would have gladly had her accuse me, than to helplessly watch harm and ruination heaped upon my child - because I angered a neurotic person.

A woman accusing another woman of such a thing would never fly - her motives would have been questioned. A woman accusing a male - even a very young boy - is too commonplace to even be questioned.

To have your child raped, or to have your child falsely accused is 1,000 times worse than experiencing it 'firsthand'.

How utterly clueless to presume otherwise

OnlyOne, I'm not sure if it's relevent to your views about Ronnie or not but I think that you are confused about Ronnie's gender. I can't find a specific post where Ronnie states that (but have only skimmed posts). I did come across a point Ronnie made to me some time ago which may help you understand where Ronnie is coming from "My culture is different to yours - simple as that. In my culture men take responsibility for the safety of their women." http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=5153#64782

I've not explored that with Ronnie in any depth but if it means as it reads it may explain some of Ronnie's approach.

To some extent my cultural background has the same value. I've tried to change that within myself to protecting those less able to protect themselves regardless of gender (not always successfully or evenly). If that's where Ronnie is coming from on this he (or she) is not alone nor is he far from cultural values.

Western society (and some others) teach us that men are expendable - "Women and Children first" is the cry. Males are taught to sacrifice themselves to protect women, we are taught to value the lives of women more highly than our own. Parents send their sons off to fight wars much more readily than they would send daughters.

Ok I knicked most of the above from William Farrels book refered to earlier but it seems relevant when you try to understand why people seem to consider a male life harmed as less important than a female life harmed.

Ronnie, am I misunderstanding what you mean by men taking responsibility for the safety of their women? Does it include placing female safety ahead of that of male safety?

R0bert

RObert,
thanks for the link to the article called “Inventing sexual abuse” ( www.fathers.ca/abuse_stories.htm )- from the “Volkskrant”, which used to be one of my two favorite Dutch papers. “Volkskrant” is a newspaper which presents unbiased and unconventional articles, is known for its variety of perspectives, and does not refrain from challenging or even confronting its readers. I repeated the link in case someone missed it and it’s worth reading.

Ronnie,
in one of my first posts I said: “False accusers don't only make life harder for men, but also for genuine rape victims.”
I think that our opinions are not differing that much when it comes to protection of women. Perhaps I care for all people to be treated fairly, men and women. I know you can see the damage women, who make false allegations, can do to genuine victims of rape.
I am not opposed to what you are saying, you have made many good points.

I just think that this discussion should move on from how horrific rape is and how the title for this topic could have been different.
I agree with you that victims can suffer from post traumatic problems. We also have agreed that every case is different and has to be treated individually.

Now, the discussion boils down to the point that someone who has been falsely accused of rape is, in the vast majority of cases, without prospects

Max,
I’d like to think that my English is good enough to get your message.

You keep saying that it is OK for women to wear what they like, but at the same time you say that sick men might get the wrong idea if she wears something too revealing.

You also said that women should take responsibility to protect themselves.

What does that mean? If it means that she should protect herself by covering up, then I have made my point.

If you do not mean that she should cover up, then what is your point exactly- how do you suggest she protects herself from those sick-minded men?

Of course I know that decent men do not think that a woman asks to be raped by her choice of clothes!

What you are really saying is that it would be perfectly OK for women to dress the way they want to if only there were not sick-minded men walking around who believe that the clothes she is wearing are an invitation for rape, albeit in HIS mind..

You shift the responsibility for rape to the woman.

RObert: I’m not trying to prove you’ re a bastard. I just think society is starting to treat rape and other seriously harmful situations too “technically” or in an instrumental way.

When you live in it everyday when people are regarded as numbers etc., it is easy to unknowingly be desensitised.

RObert , Seether didn’t pursue the matter - you did.

I read Seether in the context of Aqvarivs posts. Aqvarivs, clearly brought up the false allegation issue to “foot in the door” to continue the negative politicking. I suggested that you all write your own article.

It would have been better not to compare. Jolanda and I have brought up the plight of people not being able to get a fair go in threads dealing with legal matters.

Context is important:

Aqvarivs was going on about frivolous complaints such as someone "running late for work" so she claimed rape.

It was argued, quiet rightly, the legal system would easily close down such complaints. I also pointed out that sub judice laws supposedly prevent editors from reporting matters and that most of the frivolous complaints wouldn’t get past the gatekeepers. This doesn’t mean no harm is done but hardly comparable (in this context) to the brutal rape spoken of in the article.

Moreover, Aqvarivs was also presenting withdrawal of complaints and failure to get a conviction as “false allegations”. I think Seether was making his observation in light of this.

And from memory (I’m so behind) Onlyone above tells how a person was coerced into withdrawing a complaint because it would harm the parents’ reputation. For Aqvarivs this would be a “false allegation”.

I’d say that the goalpost shifted from frivolous accusations that Seether mentions, to your “false allegations of rape” and Onlyones’ “false allegations of rape where a man is jailed and then murdered in jail”. You can’t compare the former to the latter. Not to mention the hidden agenda issue. I hold that to compare the pain associated with rape and false allegation of rape is not the best way – it's disrespectful to both. Carpe diem oldmate.

Max, I can understand the pain you are suffering, my son was charged with rape by a 14 year old girl he knew four years ago, he had just turned 16 years old and it took two years and many court appearances due to the police having it adjourned before he was finally acquitted. I still to this day cannot understand why my son was charged as there was no evidence against him only her word, even the DNA results came back negative. It destroyed our lives emotionally and finacially and my son has never been the same since. When the Magistrate delivered his not guilty verdict (we were in the childrens court) he had very harsh words about the girl. My advise is dont give up the truth will come out, and make sure you have a good barrister to represent you.

Celivia, thanks for the info on the source of the article. I rarely post links to fathers/mens sites so that was valued.

Ronnie, can we take up Celivia's suggestion that we move on from the rights and wrong's of this thread. We have different views on the issue and it seems unlikely that either of us will change our views significantly. Ronnie you have a different view to mine and have expressed it - thats welcome.

It would appear that you have a different view to some others about the reliability of the system to filter out false allegations early. For the sake of advancing the discussion are you willing to conceed that the system may not always work as well as it should?

That some innocents will end up going through the pain of being charged, of having to retain a solicitor/barrister (with no chance of recouping those expenses), of having friends and collegues told via informal channels that they are a rapist, that occasionally some will go to jail and gain a criminal record as a rapist.

What can we do to minimise the harm when false allegations occurr?
- I'm opposed to penalties for false accusers when the accusation is retracted or overturned based on evidence provided by friends or family of the accuser. I think such penalties are likely to lessen the chances of a retraction occuring.
- I do think those caught out without retraction should receive the same or greater penalty to that which the offence would have carried.
- I don't believe a person aquitted of a crime should be left to carry the consequences of their defense. If the government can afford to prosecute we can afford the costs associated with the defence. I see no ethical reason to support a person who is innocent under law being left with a financial penalty.
- No measure put in place to protect the accuser should be allowed to lessen the opportunity for the accused to defend themselves against the allegation.

R0bert

Leamick, welcome to the thread.

Do you have any comment on the views put forward so far as someone else who has seen this stuff up close and personal?

What works, what does not work?

R0bert

RObert,
"I'm opposed to penalties for false accusers when the accusation is retracted or overturned based on evidence provided by friends or family of the accuser. I think such penalties are likely to lessen the chances of a retraction occuring."

I’d like to agree with you here but I’d also like to add that another reason for opposing penalties is that real rape victims might be less inclined to report a rape if they think that they might not be able to come up with adequate evidence. Some victims are very young, alone and scared or just very traumatised and they wouldn't risk reporting a rape if they'd think it may mean a penalty.

We should not forget that sometimes judges take into account a woman’s behaviour (provocative) or profession (stripper).
Rape is probably the only crime where the victim is judged along with the perpetrator. This is unfair.

While we do not want to lock up innocent men, we also need to keep in mind that a retracted allegation/accusation is not always a sign that the accusation was false. There may as well be other reasons for a rape victim to have retracted the accusation.

This is such a complicated topic to discuss, I am struggling with it! There are so many grey and overlapping area’s! Whatever way we look at rape allegations and rapes, there are always both sides to consider and there's always the risk that one of the perpetrators is getting away unpunished if the system is not accurate and unbiased.

RObert, I believe you may be the one mistaken about ronnie's gender. I have locked horns with this type of mentality before, and it's always, without exception, a lesbian posing as a man. Even the most humane, decent, supportive males on the planet (and I certainly know many, and have raised two) are highly aware that false accusations against males are prevalent. They are also highly aware of the consequences and horrific damage of false accusations, unlike ronnie.

As far as the fear of rape being desensitized, perhaps it NEEDS to be looked at with facts and truth - instead of out of control emotional response.

Here in the states, the families of 3 boys have spent over $5 million dollars defending their son's against a stripper who claimed they raped her. She was trying to avoid jail for drunken driving. Read about the Duke University LaCrosse team rape scandal - the entire university took the stripper's side, the boys were expelled, the prosecutor announced them guilty on national television. Someone's sordid 'background' no longer is questioned when a rape charge is involved.

It's the reason to question emotional response, and pay attention to truth and facts...

To correct your redefining my comments about the withdrawal of a complaint being 'cooerced'-nothing in this world would make me withdraw a true, valid complaint if someone harmed my child. I advised my son's accuser to make a formal complaint with law enforcement, instead of gossiping to family and friends, or *I* would make a complaint FOR her - and include her history of sexually abusing children.

She chose to apologize and withdraw the accusation. It was, in fact, a false accusation, and she was, in fact, a child molester. There was no 'cooercion'involved. Two years later, when she made her next accusation, I told the court of her earlier accusation and withdrawal of it, she denied it happened. The only 'rapist' here was the false accuser.

Robert, my friend I fully understand what you are trying to say, this is not an easy subject, if a man say anything at all he is accused of representing the SHEIK view or he is a women hater.
I am not to discuss the so called revealing clothes any longer as it seems not to be accepted very well. I do remember though that the so called mini skirt wasn’t that MINI when it was introduced, it has become shorter and shorter and shorter with time, to the point that some mini skirts if not wore at all wouldn’t male any difference whatsoever.
Now let me ask a question to all women that participate in this forum. I don’t believe anyone has asked before. The question is;
Why do you wear such short skirts revealing your underpants? Why do you wear blouses that make your breasts wanting to pop out?
If it is not to attract ATTENTION, Why do you wear those clothes? Don’t come up with the answer that we live in a free world, I won’t accept it. I know that this question is going to receive lots of angry responses but I had to ask it, I never asked any woman in real life it’s time to ask in here.

Leamick, I can really and truly tell you that I know what you mean, I don’t believe for a minute that your son will ever be the same, I am not sure if he will ever trust a woman again either. He is very young though and maybe in time he will eventually put all the happening behind him and find some happiness, as we’ve been saying in here not all women are the same. Let me tell you that at times (and at my age) it feels like that the only thing to do is just hate all women, but that won’t be right though, rest assured that I had to fight that feeling badly enough so as not to fall victim of hatred towards another human being.

Celivia, when you make comments about the issue, and although I don’t necessarily agree with it, you’re a great contributor to the forum, but your comments are very much open to discussions. I appreciate all you said in your last post. You say that if a person that falsely accused of rape someone else’s, then if not proven it was rape she is then made accountable and forced to pay restitution to the accused then many women would find it hard to come forwards and report a rape for fear of having to be made accountable. Celivia; do you understand what you are in fact saying here? You are telling us (me) that the word of a woman should and must be sufficient to send a man in jail for having committed (according to her) rape. It doesn’t matter if she can’t prove it, it doesn’t matter if there are no witnesses, she is saying it; so it must be true. Are you trying to tell us (me) that a woman is now in possession of a WEAPON that she can use any time she wishes to accuse and send a man to jail simply because she doesn’t like him? I truly know that you may hate what I am about to say right now, but MY VIEW is that if a woman does not report a rape it wasn’t a rape to start with. A crime MUST be reported no matter; what with the proper evidence any woman subjected to any form of violence SHOULD have the courage to report the event and have the person committing the violence sent to jail. Continues

Celivia Continued…..I always believed (till now at least) that any person is considered innocent until proven guilty, what you are saying, sounds to me that it’s not the case when it comes to rape. If a woman says that she was raped than IT MUST BE TRUE? Is that what you imply in your post? Rest assured that I will do all I possibly can to make my accuser pay for it (all legally rest assured), this situation has never been tested before it will be a test case but I am absolutely sure that our constitution safeguard all of us men and women, my house is on the market I will use all the money to go as far as the Supreme Court to see this woman pay for all she is doing to me, maybe after that and if I win the case other women willing to falsely accuse a man of rape realise that they don’t have that WEAPON after all. My Barrister has advised me that I do have a change; rest assured that I will take that chance with open arms.

Max,
You are saying that if a man says ‘anything at all’ he is accused of representing the Sheikh.
No, Max, not true. Only men who make sheikhish comments are accused of sounding like the sheikh.

“Why do you wear such short skirts revealing your underpants?”
I can answer that for you even though I don’t know where you are going with this sheikhish question.
I do not wear skirts so short that my underpants are revealed, I do not wear underpants. Oh that was a joke to shock you, hehe.
Seriously now, I do not wear them because it is not my style and I wouldn’t feel comfortable wearing them. What other women wear in the name of fashion is up to them, but whatever their reasons are, these have nothing to do with rape since rape has nothing to do with how a woman presents herself.

Now you’ve had me run around in circles and now that I’ve answered your question, it’s time you answered the one I asked in my previous post:
“You also said that women should take responsibility to protect themselves.
What does that mean? If it means that she should protect herself by covering up, then I have made my point.
If you do not mean that she should cover up, then what is your point exactly- how do you suggest she protects herself from those sick-minded men?”
By the way, not only sick-minded men rape- sometimes they are just bullies or power freaks or can’t take NO for an answer.

“If it is not to attract ATTENTION, Why do you wear those clothes?”
I don’t know, but even IF they wear revealing clothes to attract attention, so what?
Some people drive around in expensive, flashy cars to attract attention- does that mean it’s OK to vandalise their cars or steal them?
There is NO excuse for rape- men who rape choose to rape; they are not ‘made’ to rape by the clothes a woman wears. You don’t seem to understand this.

Continued

“…your comments are very much open to discussions.”
Hehe Max, thanks for the compliment. It wouldn’t be so interesting to discuss things on an opinion forum if all our comments were closed to discussions, would it.

“You say that if a person that falsely accused of rape someone else’s, then if not proven it was rape she is then made accountable and forced to pay restitution to the accused then many women would find it hard to come forwards and report a rape for fear of having to be made accountable. Celivia; do you understand what you are in fact saying here?”
I understand exactly what I am saying.
Max, not all women who cannot find evidence are false accusers. The lack of evidence does not prove a woman is guilty of false accusation and therefore they should not be punished. Find evidence that they have falsely accused someone and THEN punish them.
You wouldn’t want a victim of rape to be falsely accused of false accusations, would you?

Read the statement where RObert said that he is opposed to penalties for false accusers when the accusation is retracted or overturned because then perhaps many women would not retract their accusation.
I am saying that in addition to this, there also would be the possibility that real rape victims refrain from reporting rapes if they know there will be a penalty if she fails to adequately prove it.
That’s why I agreed with RObert when he suggested that ONLY accusers caught out without retraction should receive a penalty.

To make it simple:
Women who retract their accusation should not be penalised because:
* A penalty may prevent them from retracting a false accusation.
* A penalty may prevent real rape victims from reporting the rape if they feel uncertain about evidence.
* Having said that, I’d like to add that women who retract their accusation do not, per definition, have to be false accusers. There are other reasons why women retract accusations.

Celivia I cannot believe the comments that you have made, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT
“not all women who cannot find evidence are false accusers. The lack of evidence does not prove a woman is guilty of false accusation and therefore they should not be punished. Find evidence that they have falsely accused someone and THEN punish them”

Do you really think a girl is going to admit she made it up and risk being prosecuted?

As far as lack of evidence is concerned, in my son’s case the girl said she bit his penis very hard. The police made an application to the courts immediately for him to be examined by a forensic doctor. The magistrate who approved the application said this will either prove or disprove that you have done the things she said. The forensic doctor was surprised that he could find no bite marks or any injuries at all on his body. The police delayed giving us the medical report for over 12 months as it didn’t came back as they expected.

DNA was another joke, my son gave a saliva DNA sample as they collected sperm from her jeans, it takes 3 months to get DNA results back, but another little surprise after 3 months we were contacted by the police that they had lost his DNA sample could he provide another sample, 3 months later we get the results back and there was no match. The girl is taken back to the police station as they want to know whose sperm it is and she makes a statement that she had sex with a 21 year old boy the night before.

“We should not forget that sometimes judges take into account a woman’s behaviour (provocative) or profession (stripper). “

The law has changed and barristers/lawyers are no longer allowed to cross examine a woman about her sexual past or behaviour, so judges and magistrates have no knowledge of the woman’s behaviour

Celivia, just to clarify I am very opposed to penalties due to a failure to prove an allegation. There would have to be evidence to satisfy the "beyond reasonable doubt" criteria which proved that the allegation was deliberately false.

If I'm understanding Max's point correctly he believes that exposure is a contributer to rape (or becoming the one targetted). If so what he is saying is that the person with the wallet lying on the seat of their car is more likely to find their window smashed than someone who hides all their valuables (and people don't often park Lamborgini's at railway stations in high crime areas).

I'm undecided on how much attire contributes to rape and a strong part of me says to wave the middle finger at sicko's but then statistically my risk of being raped is pretty low. It's not an issue that is likely to give me cause to dress to protect. I struggle to get my head around it properly..

onlyone - "To correct your redefining my comments about the withdrawal of a complaint " - was that refering to something I've done? If so sorry I've lost track of it.

It is possible that Ronnie is not as I think he/she is but I tend to take the approach of treating peoples claims about themselves at false value unless strong evidence suggests otherwise. This would all get even more confusing otherwise. For the counterpoint pretty much everything here gets treated with a grain of salt. Strange though it may seem from some of our exchanges I have fair bit of respect for Ronnie, there is some history.

Thanks again for your ongoing contributions. Your insights into your own families experience have been invaluable. The challenge for us in Australia is to work out what is relevant here and also how to avoid making the mistakes the US has made. Some structural stuff is different, our judges don't have to win popularity contests (except with the politicians if they want a promotion). Similar for other key players.

R0bert

Leamick, my son's accuser claimed he raped her everyday for two weeks -using 'Pert' shampoo to "Make it go in easier".

Don't know if they have Pert shampoo in Oz, but it's an extremely cheap, harsh brand. She was 9, he was 14 years old, yet her medical exam showed she was virginally intact and did not claim any vaginal infection from the shampoo. He passed three polygraph exams claiming his innocence. Our rape shield laws prevented her prior history of making accusations from being admissable.

She waited two years to make her accusation, during a temper tantrum, so she could attend a party. Over 30 people wrote letters on his behalf, most of them the young women he associated with, and their parents -teachers, ministers, and social workers. ALL said he was a nice kid and never harmed anyone.

She was believed, his life is now ruined.

rObert, my comments were to others, as well. My only comment to you was my certainty that 'ronnie' is probably 'Rhonda'. There is a real man hating war going on out there. No 'culture' in existance is blind to the fact that women are capable of lying, or make false accusation, except the 'culture' of lesbians.

I have been accused of being a 'traitor' to my gender for my comments about false accusers, but as a woman, I certainly aknowledged that men do wrong, and that I have been harmed by men. I just don't hate or blame all men for the actions of a few. ronnie seems to be in complete denial that women lie or commit wrongs against men, that women need more power...not the words of any male, any where, I don't care how much his 'culture' has clipped his manhood.

Leamick,
“Do you really think a girl is going to admit she made it up and risk being prosecuted?”
No, that's why I agreed with RObert's point that a woman is more likely to admit she made the whole thing up if there is NO penalty when she voluntarily retracts the false allegation.
All I want is for the wrong-doer to be punished.

Lack of evidence does not prove a woman is guilty. Perhaps I should have said: Lack of evidence does not AUTOMATICALLY prove that a woman is guilty of false accusation. I can see that leaving this out could cause confusion. Many real rape victims do not have evidence.

The case of your son sounds like hell, it seems so obvious to me that the girl is lying- there is no doubt in my mind that she is fabricating the story. In this case, it’s the “beyond reasonable doubt” criteria RObert Is talking about that should have her charged with false allegations. I wish you, Onlyone and Maxximo much strength and success in your fight against the system.

“…judges and magistrates have no knowledge of the woman’s behaviour”
OK thanks, I wasn’t aware of this. The public is still very harsh in judging women’s looks or occupation and behaviour, though.

RObert,
“Celivia, just to clarify I am very opposed to penalties due to a failure to prove an allegation…”
Yes, RObert, I understood your reason why you are opposed to these penalties. That’s why I agreed with your statement about the “beyond reasonable doubt” criteria.
I just wanted to add that there are two reasons why I would oppose these penalties.

“…he believes that exposure is a contributer to rape...”
Yes and it is unfortunate that he believes that.
For the sake of the conversation, I will stop talking about women’s clothing after this post unless there is something new to add otherwise I just keep repeating myself.

continued

I just want to make clear that the two –rape and clothes- are not linked. Rape happens in Muslim countries where women are completely covered.
Rape happens to babies, girls and women of all ages no matter how they are dressed or how they look. Rape happens to boys and men by heterosexual men, not only by homosexual men- rape is a power trip at the expense of others.

About the example of stealing the wallet, it wouldn’t matter what kind of car the wallet is lying in, or how attractive the wallet looks - thieves are after the money and will look out for any opportunity to get their hands on it without being seen. The looks of the car or wallet is not going to decide whether the wallet is going to be stolen; the decision to steal it is based on how easily a thief figures s/he can snatch it off the seat and get away with it.
Stealing money is probably motivated by greed or need. Rape is motivated by the need for power.

Wallets can be put away in the pocket or bag and not left out in a car.
Women need and want to walk around freely. To say they should cover up or behave in certain ways is like teaming up with the rapists. Rape is always ALL the rapist’s fault, none of it is the woman’s fault. Rapists make the decision to rape someone, they are not ‘made to’ rape.

A quick note about the *mystery* of Ronnie’s sex; I believe that I read somewhere that he said he has a wife and kids. I can’t recall the thread I saw this on.
Because same-sex marriage is not happening in Australia, I assume that Ronnie is a man. I’m not sure if Ronnie’s sex is relevant to me though, it’s his opinion that counts no matter what sex he is.

Rape shield laws have been in effect since the mid 1970's here in America.

The public may look down on a 'loose' woman, but a woman's past or reputation is not admissable in court - the court has no idea. They dress like church matrons, and tearfully proclaim their innocence is stolen. 11 year old girls dress in maryjanes and clutch teddy bears in court, sucking a thumb. It's a circus.

Medical evidence is also 'confidential' if it's the accuser's. My son's accuser had a rare bacterial infection at the time, it was highly contagious. If he had done what she said he did, he would have been exposed. She, in fact, denied the disease, her medical records could not be accessed, and she simply got away with lying in court.

My son's attorney asked him, in fact: How can you PROVE you didn't get the disease?

If you can't PROVE you didn't get a disease two years ago (What? I took him to a doctor under an assumed name?!) you sure as heII can't prove you didn't rape someone two years ago.

Do you really think sweet little girls don't lie? The 17th century Salem Witchhunts here in America were started by 11 year old girls lying. People were tortured and hung, and these little girls STILL stayed with their stories.

The laws have changed from 'innocent until proven guilty' to 'guilty unless proven innocent' when it comes to these claims. Well and good, BUT roadblocks like rapeshield laws and confidentiality laws prohibit even the most obvious lies from being exposed.

Go to court accused sometime. You'll see.

Rape
The criminal allegation that is easy to claim and increasingly difficult for the defendant to
disprove. In 1998 the California legislature passed Evidence Code § 1108 that further crippled a
defendant's ability to remain innocent in the eyes of the jury until proven guilty. The new code
section allows the prosecution to introduce allegations made by other women allegedly assaulted
on previous occasions by the defendant to prove that a rape occurred in the currently charged
offense. However, no corroborative evidence is required to introduce these alleged crimes.
There does not have to be a conviction. Nor does there have to exist a criminal charge or even
a prior police report. The uncorroborated word of a single individual is sufficient.

There is a class of people in America today, numbering two million or more, who have been utterly scapegoated, ostracized, demonized and shunned. There is no longer any defence available for these people. Almost no-one on the left or the right, civil libertarians or ordinary citizens, will defend their rights. They are regularly vilified with the most vicious and hate-filled language - language previously reserved for classes now protected: Jews, Blacks, homosexuals. They are fair game as targets of abuse and vandalism. They are subject to utter public scorn. About 600,000 of them have been rounded up and forced to register - many soon to be monitored for life with electronic bracelets and global positioning devices. Nearly 4000 have been locked up for life, not on criminal charges, but by civil commitment, and those numbers are growing by the day. The remainder are mostly in hiding, desperately afraid of sudden exposure and witch hunts by neighbors, fellow-workers and friends, whom they fear will suddenly see them as monsters beyond redemption. They are a class defined not by specific crimes (though they are accused of many offences) but by their very being, their desires, their constitution, as allegedly broken human beings. Presidents and governors call them ‘despicable’, ’disgusting’, ‘incapable of rehabilitation or reform’, ‘beyond help’. They are loudly reviled as examples to be shunned by fundamentalist and bigoted preachers, but also by left-wing media, progressive community leaders and feminists.

Who are these scum? Arab terrorists? Muslim fanatics? No, those evil-doers appear almost benign when compared to this heinous mob. These are the most awful people in the world: sex offenders. Worse, many are pedophiles. In fact, these two terms become mingled. Jeb Bush recently alluded to all the sex offenders in Florida as child molesters, though fewer than 1/3 of those incarcerated in that state for ‘sex crimes’ involved people under 18. Bush went on, "These are a group of people who are the sickest of the sick. They are truly perverts and it's not curable. Instead of civil detention, we ought to make sure...these pedophiles...are locked up forever."

Celivia: Re: my sex. Sorry for not responding sooner but I got distracted by something bright and shiny. Now Robert I can fold fitted sheets neatly. That should answer you both.

I am not a total bastard. If you think I don't have sympathy and empathy with the falsely accused, then you are too cynical for your own assumption-drawing endevours. Nothing I've said indicates otherwise.

This thread has skewed onto who has the greatest grievance and thus who is most qualified to speak from experience. The limited numbers here are in no way representative of society as whole.

However, this is my position in relation to experience. Neuroscientists (O’Craven Kanwisher 2000) have confirmed what some ancient philosophers believed. They (neuroscientists) showed that imagination can form the brain almost to the same degree as the actual experience. (Note “ almost”).

I think that the actual experience is “the kick in the arse” that opens peoples’ minds to the pain of others and their own vulnerability and perhaps illusions. Thus Robert your experiences has given you some insight into the plight of others. That I guess was the cruel twist that removed your illusions about a system.

I have often argued about the "otherness" of the individual. I cannot ever know how you feel. I can only imagine how others feel.
An extreme example of this is death. We can't know what it is like to dead. But I can grieve for my cousin who died in a car wreck at age seventeen. I can empathise with my Aunty who lost both her children. Nevertheless, we can imagine the pain of our children dying before us because we are humans who do indeed share to a degree certain feelings. Hence the Golden Rule.

It is difficult to engage with others when all they want to do is prove you are this or that. When people start sprouting on about how others pain is not comparable to their pain and how they are the only ones who have any clue and draw foolish and baseless assumptions then you have to question their intent.

That this is even a topic of conversation is the most telling. That a victim of false accusation would even HAVE to protest, is telling.

You want to 'question' anything, question that, my friend.

Guys, I have been reading all your posts with great interest, Rober thank you, finally someone understood the point I was trying to make.
I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Celivia as far as you pretending not to understand the damage a woman does to a man she falsely accuse of rape is incomprehensible. Tell me something, how in hell a man is going to prove that she falsely accused him if there are no proofs of him raping her? I repeat you women have now this HORRIFIC WEAPON and some of you use it to deliberately get back to a man for any reason whatsoever. You also have another weapon given to you with the compliments of the Australian Justice System, you have now a licemce to kill a man (instead of reporting him and see him jailed)for continuously assaulting you be it verbally or physically, yet until the day such a case was held in Court NO ONE was allowed to take the law into his/her own hands, or is this only valid for men?
Continues...

Continued... Women have fought hard and rightly so to achieve equality, I do firmly believe it was right as they are just as intelligent as any man if not more. What I will never be able to understand is why they continue to undress more and more every day when going out. A beautiful woman will always be beautifull even if wearing a carpenter overall, or anything else for that matter. In my humble opinion (I could of course be wrong) the reason is simply to be the centre of attention, to be desired, to be looked upon in a specific way, to feel wanted and many more things, I can't seems to find any real GOOD reason for going out undressed instead of being dressed, the fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter anymore if women dress code increases the chance of being assaulted or even raped what really matter is to find out from an HONEST woman the real reason for doing so. An intelligent woman will be always intelligent fully dressed of fully undressed wouldn't make any difference. That's my opinion of course.

One more thing I'd like to say, simply a thank you to each and everyone, this forum has been my refuge since I firstly come in, different views, different opinions, evertheless a fantastic source of information and understanding. Of course we have different opinions on how things are the most important thing is that we are discussing all in a very civilized manner. Thank you all again and keep on posting. (Great links also).

One more thing I'd like to say, simply a thank you to each and everyone, this forum has been my refuge since I firstly come in, different views, different opinions, nevertheless a fantastic source of information and understanding. Of course we have different opinions on how things are the most important thing is that we are discussing all in a very civilized manner. Thank you all again and keep on posting. (Great links also).

Max,
Best of luck with your committal hearing this month, reading your story brings back all the pain my family suffered. Remember Max the prosecution has to prove that you did do the accusations she has made against you. A committal hearing is very important as it gets all the information for the trial and believe me stories do change from the committal hearing to the trial. If you need any one to talk to or any advice I am more than happy to assist you as I know what you are going thru as there is no support for the accused. No one can fully understand how you feel until they have gone thru this. Financially though it ruined us, we had to sell our house to pay for our sons legal costs, which is the part that annoys me most as the female walks away with no financial loss and no idea what she has done to the accused. Take care and happy easter

Lea

“Celivia as far as you pretending not to understand the damage a woman does to a man she falsely accuse of rape is incomprehensible.”

SIGH…You say that you have been reading our posts but you have obviously not read what I have been saying. From the start I have been saying that women should not get away with false accusations and I am NOT in the mood to repeat myself all over again.
Go back to my previous posts. I HAVE expressed my feelings on this- that it is unfair that men have no proper way of defending themselves. I have AGREED with you and RObert that this is a problem and needs attention.
For you to say that I pretend not to understand the damage is unfair, illogical and shows me that you are not listening to me.

You have now stepped over the line with me, Max, and I have lost my patience with you. The more you talk about women’s clothes, the more I doubt your story. What was your girlfriend wearing that night, Max? You most likely will be asked this question in court if you keep carrying on about women’s clothes and behaviour.

Since you seem to be obsessed by what women wear and why they wear it, I will go into it AGAIN.
“What I will never be able to understand is why they continue to undress more and more every day when going out. A beautiful woman will always be beautiful even if wearing a carpenter overall, or anything else for that matter.”
I have not noticed that women are walking the streets half naked, but OK let's discuss it anyway.
Yes, let women all go around in shapeless sacks, or why not burka’s? Women in burka’s get raped, too, Max. If you read my posts you would have known this.

OK once more, let’s talk about your obsession: women’s clothes.
The mini has been around since the sixties, in the seventies the micro mini occurred; strangely there was no corresponding increase in sexual crime.

Continued

Sexual display is normal behaviour for humans - men as well as women love to show off their bodies.
The male tank top?
Low rider jeans? Why do men wear low rider jeans showing THEIR underpants?
Bike pants? Why do men wear pants that reveal the outline of their genitals?
Tight body shirts?

Why, Max, do you never mention men dressing seductively?
Just think rock gods, movie stars. Why are male strippers so popular? Because to be sexual is to be human. you have little understanding of sex and sensuality.

Clearly, Max, you have a problem with the female form.
You raise these issues as if all men agree with you. And this is simply not the case.

You claim you were falsely accused of rape; then you continue badgering this topic. You KEEP raising the issue of women enticing men, you question and criticise their appearance and behaviour.

Why women AND men can sometimes dress ‘sexy’ is because they enjoy their bodies, they love being sexual – but for SOME men this justifies sex by force, so it seems.

Celivia I only answer this comment of yours:
Quote "You have now stepped over the line with me, Max, and I have lost my patience with you. The more you talk about women’s clothes, the more I doubt your story. What was your girlfriend wearing that night, Max? You most likely will be asked this question in court if you keep carrying on about women’s clothes and behaviour.
" Unquote
You doubting of my claim of innocence doesn't bother me at all, as a matter of fact "there's a video of the incident" that is why my Barrister believes she has no case whatsoever, that's the reason why I am selling my house to make this woman pay once the Court is over, I will be found NOT GUILTY because of that video, then she will pay and I honestly hope that once that happen "because it will happen" then women may have lost this horrific weapon. And more for you to read Celivia, the very first paragraph of her so called complaint clearly states "I went to his place as I have done for the last 20 years, for a sexual encounter" then she continues with the lies, not once she said NO or STOP,I am very fortunate there is a video of it all Celivia, this is the reason why I am so very upset with the system. Women clothing is not an obsseion for me Celivia you got it all wrong. I am only trying to understand the reason why women, and as you stated perhaps even men have the need to show their sexuality so blatantly, I am very sorry Celivia but I just can't comprehend why. For anyone information the Committal Hearing has been postponed at the police request, I have no idea why. New date is the end of May. My request for a polygraph has not been considered either.

I never mentioned the video before as I believe it was not important, as a matter of fact wanted to read everyone else's opinion, some are absolutely against a false accuser being punihsed so as to send a message that false acusations will not be under estimated, obviously someone others believes that a woman that falsely accuses a man of rape must be punished, yet no one says how, reimbursing courts costs? No it sems out of question, do you honestly believe that an apology will be satisfactory? Someone goes as far as saying that will stop real rape being reported, well as someone said a very long time ago, best to see real crimes not being reported and dealt with than seeing an innocent person being sent to death (back then) to jail nowdays (for a very long time) for a crime never committed. I personally strongly believe this is the only way to see justice prevail.

If it can be proven - beyond a doubt - that a false accusation is false, than by all means the accuser should be punished to the full extent of what their intended victim would have recieved.

I have personally spoken out against punishing a recanter for fear that anyone inclined to come forward with the truth - better late than never - would never do it for fear of punishment.

No actual victim need fear punishment for coming forward IF they are telling the truth.

Those who are PROVEN to be lying, however, need to suffer severely.

onlyone, as the law stands today the Judge will be only able to slap her on the wrist, nothing more, nothing less. As I previously mentioned I deserve to be punished for what I have done to my family that yes I do deserve and I am being punished very harshly.
RAPE? Even if found not guilty I have been accused, that's enough to make me mad, very mad indeed towards our so called Justice System. I succeeded once before (different matter) to win a so called TEST case, I WILL win again and will do it for the sake of all falsely accused people, be it male or female, I will not rest until I see this woman in jail, I don't want her money, I don't want her apologies, I want to see her suffer and in jail, the only thing that has stopped me till now has been my concerns for her children, but what about my children? They are suffering right now and will suffer for the rest of their life so I have no longer any concerns for her children. Continues...

Continued... For this is the reason that it doesn't matter how long it will take, I will succeed to send this woman in jail for a very long time so that others accusers (male or female) will make sure that when they report a rape it must have been a rape to start with and most importantly that the person committing the so called rape had every intention to do just that. I strongly confirm what I said earlier, much better to see a REAL rapist get free, than a falsely accused be imprisoned. Most of you allege that if a false accuser is imprisoned for doing just that then it will stop others making a complaint, well so be it, there's no way anyone can compare the pain of a person being raped not willing to report the rape because of the fear of not being able to prove it, and the pain that a person falsely accused sent to jail will suffer. No sir it can not be compared. Both things are wrong yet it's best this way than the other way around.

Probably no one will believe me on this, but I have been thinking like crazy on how to get someone to in fact look at the video and tell me it was rape, the video is very explicit and goes for over 45 minutes, my Barrister (he has seen the video) believes it wasn't, my lawyer clearly said that he would much prefer to be on my side than on the Public Prosecutor side as he believes there's no case ( he has seen the video as well). The fact remain that I am to attend a Committal Hearing, WHY so? If there's no case to answer? I am going mad guys, I really am. The Police has seen the video as well and decided to charge me with rape. What's going on guys? As far as the woman is concerned originally she said it was consentual then someone, somewhere convinced her to change her story, is it possible that in fact this woman has been manipulated in such a bad way so as to change her mind? I know that none of you can answer this question, I just like to hear your conclusions if any. Thanks

Hi Max

Just wondering how your case is going?

Lea