OnlyOne, I'm not sure if it's relevent to your views about Ronnie or not but I think that you are confused about Ronnie's gender. I can't find a specific post where Ronnie states that (but have only skimmed posts). I did come across a point Ronnie made to me some time ago which may help you understand where Ronnie is coming from "My culture is different to yours - simple as that. In my culture men take responsibility for the safety of their women." http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=5153#64782

I've not explored that with Ronnie in any depth but if it means as it reads it may explain some of Ronnie's approach.

To some extent my cultural background has the same value. I've tried to change that within myself to protecting those less able to protect themselves regardless of gender (not always successfully or evenly). If that's where Ronnie is coming from on this he (or she) is not alone nor is he far from cultural values.

Western society (and some others) teach us that men are expendable - "Women and Children first" is the cry. Males are taught to sacrifice themselves to protect women, we are taught to value the lives of women more highly than our own. Parents send their sons off to fight wars much more readily than they would send daughters.

Ok I knicked most of the above from William Farrels book refered to earlier but it seems relevant when you try to understand why people seem to consider a male life harmed as less important than a female life harmed.

Ronnie, am I misunderstanding what you mean by men taking responsibility for the safety of their women? Does it include placing female safety ahead of that of male safety?

R0bert

RObert,
thanks for the link to the article called “Inventing sexual abuse” ( www.fathers.ca/abuse_stories.htm )- from the “Volkskrant”, which used to be one of my two favorite Dutch papers. “Volkskrant” is a newspaper which presents unbiased and unconventional articles, is known for its variety of perspectives, and does not refrain from challenging or even confronting its readers. I repeated the link in case someone missed it and it’s worth reading.

Ronnie,
in one of my first posts I said: “False accusers don't only make life harder for men, but also for genuine rape victims.”
I think that our opinions are not differing that much when it comes to protection of women. Perhaps I care for all people to be treated fairly, men and women. I know you can see the damage women, who make false allegations, can do to genuine victims of rape.
I am not opposed to what you are saying, you have made many good points.

I just think that this discussion should move on from how horrific rape is and how the title for this topic could have been different.
I agree with you that victims can suffer from post traumatic problems. We also have agreed that every case is different and has to be treated individually.

Now, the discussion boils down to the point that someone who has been falsely accused of rape is, in the vast majority of cases, without prospects

Max,
I’d like to think that my English is good enough to get your message.

You keep saying that it is OK for women to wear what they like, but at the same time you say that sick men might get the wrong idea if she wears something too revealing.

You also said that women should take responsibility to protect themselves.

What does that mean? If it means that she should protect herself by covering up, then I have made my point.

If you do not mean that she should cover up, then what is your point exactly- how do you suggest she protects herself from those sick-minded men?

Of course I know that decent men do not think that a woman asks to be raped by her choice of clothes!

What you are really saying is that it would be perfectly OK for women to dress the way they want to if only there were not sick-minded men walking around who believe that the clothes she is wearing are an invitation for rape, albeit in HIS mind..

You shift the responsibility for rape to the woman.

RObert: I’m not trying to prove you’ re a bastard. I just think society is starting to treat rape and other seriously harmful situations too “technically” or in an instrumental way.

When you live in it everyday when people are regarded as numbers etc., it is easy to unknowingly be desensitised.

RObert , Seether didn’t pursue the matter - you did.

I read Seether in the context of Aqvarivs posts. Aqvarivs, clearly brought up the false allegation issue to “foot in the door” to continue the negative politicking. I suggested that you all write your own article.

It would have been better not to compare. Jolanda and I have brought up the plight of people not being able to get a fair go in threads dealing with legal matters.

Context is important:

Aqvarivs was going on about frivolous complaints such as someone "running late for work" so she claimed rape.

It was argued, quiet rightly, the legal system would easily close down such complaints. I also pointed out that sub judice laws supposedly prevent editors from reporting matters and that most of the frivolous complaints wouldn’t get past the gatekeepers. This doesn’t mean no harm is done but hardly comparable (in this context) to the brutal rape spoken of in the article.

Moreover, Aqvarivs was also presenting withdrawal of complaints and failure to get a conviction as “false allegations”. I think Seether was making his observation in light of this.

And from memory (I’m so behind) Onlyone above tells how a person was coerced into withdrawing a complaint because it would harm the parents’ reputation. For Aqvarivs this would be a “false allegation”.

I’d say that the goalpost shifted from frivolous accusations that Seether mentions, to your “false allegations of rape” and Onlyones’ “false allegations of rape where a man is jailed and then murdered in jail”. You can’t compare the former to the latter. Not to mention the hidden agenda issue. I hold that to compare the pain associated with rape and false allegation of rape is not the best way – it's disrespectful to both. Carpe diem oldmate.

Max, I can understand the pain you are suffering, my son was charged with rape by a 14 year old girl he knew four years ago, he had just turned 16 years old and it took two years and many court appearances due to the police having it adjourned before he was finally acquitted. I still to this day cannot understand why my son was charged as there was no evidence against him only her word, even the DNA results came back negative. It destroyed our lives emotionally and finacially and my son has never been the same since. When the Magistrate delivered his not guilty verdict (we were in the childrens court) he had very harsh words about the girl. My advise is dont give up the truth will come out, and make sure you have a good barrister to represent you.

Celivia, thanks for the info on the source of the article. I rarely post links to fathers/mens sites so that was valued.

Ronnie, can we take up Celivia's suggestion that we move on from the rights and wrong's of this thread. We have different views on the issue and it seems unlikely that either of us will change our views significantly. Ronnie you have a different view to mine and have expressed it - thats welcome.

It would appear that you have a different view to some others about the reliability of the system to filter out false allegations early. For the sake of advancing the discussion are you willing to conceed that the system may not always work as well as it should?

That some innocents will end up going through the pain of being charged, of having to retain a solicitor/barrister (with no chance of recouping those expenses), of having friends and collegues told via informal channels that they are a rapist, that occasionally some will go to jail and gain a criminal record as a rapist.

What can we do to minimise the harm when false allegations occurr?
- I'm opposed to penalties for false accusers when the accusation is retracted or overturned based on evidence provided by friends or family of the accuser. I think such penalties are likely to lessen the chances of a retraction occuring.
- I do think those caught out without retraction should receive the same or greater penalty to that which the offence would have carried.
- I don't believe a person aquitted of a crime should be left to carry the consequences of their defense. If the government can afford to prosecute we can afford the costs associated with the defence. I see no ethical reason to support a person who is innocent under law being left with a financial penalty.
- No measure put in place to protect the accuser should be allowed to lessen the opportunity for the accused to defend themselves against the allegation.

R0bert