Incorrect Rudy.

No 'discussion' or 'thread' is useless or pointless.

The very concept, as I see it, from OLO and Forums, is for people to learn and grow from other peoples' participation and viewpoints, whether we agree at the time on those viewpoints or [not].

How else is one able to learn and grow, not reading or sharing viewpoints? People who give of themselves are also learning from others in the process, whether they commence posting with a set agenda or otherwise.

If you stay tuned in to OLO long enough, you will realise [as I do] that there may be a few little things learned; one being that we do not know it all, despite life experiences

grateful,

I will defend with great fervour your right to use the term 'sister' in reference to people who are not blood references. And I respect the fact that your grief at the death of this figurative 'sister' is genuine. I am, on occasion, caught up with grief for people with whom I have no connection whatsoever. I respect your ability to establish and sustain empathy. I do not believe, however, that your grief is equal to the grief you would feel had you lost a sister you had watched grow up, with whom you had shared all the greatest joys and most terrible moments of your life. With that in mind, I fully understand the disgust your post caused. As a matter of inter-cultural understanding, which I am sure you embrace, I think it is only fair that you ensure that your meaning is clear when calling someone your sister in a society that does not understand or relate to the different meaning you have for the word. We may be ignorant, but as a world citizen and an advocate of your faith, it is your responsibility to enlighten us. There are few things that enrage people more than finding out that somebody has drawn your sympathy under false pretences - either intentionally or otherwise.

Otokonoko,
Yeh, i figured that out. Thank-you for the good advice anyway :-)

Pericles,
Unlike your friend I did not have to be threatened. Instead the environment changed in which i rejected one lifestyle for something better: a lifestyle that did not require booze as a requisite for "fun". Drinking gradually became something that was not "fun" and something i did when away from the Muslim community (where of course it is not socially acceptable to drink) until i completely lost to desire or interest. I may have moved away from booze without becoming Muslim but it would have been harder due to the social pressures to drink. My argument was that it is not rational for a society to be exerting these pressures if it believes more harm than good comes from alcohol. Because of my own experience, i believe Islam offers some very good practical lessons in helping our kids lead more constructive lives.

Also can i offer an 'outsiders' perspective on your approach: Your derision in the earlier topic (totally motivated by the fact that i was Muslim and not based on anything i had to say) and in the above post reflects an unwillingness to think outside your own pre-constructed world-view and results in intolerance and a pre-occupation with "intention". You may know some science but your approach to views that contradict your own is not scientific.

The purpose of the current post (as well as others) was to invite critical scrutiny of statements made in the name of my own faith. In the current post I asked scientists to critique a view of a Muslim regarding some verses of the Qur'aan and its relation to scientific knowledge and did not put them forth as "the truth". I think i got my money's worth from steve (a refreshing change) but not yourself because of your attitude.

Philo,
The fact that you cannot support your statements with serious scholarship says it all (try Esposito "Who speaks for Islam?" or Lewis "Islam: the Religion & the People").

Sorry, grateful, that angle doesn't work on me, I'm afraid.

>>Your derision in the earlier topic... reflects an unwillingness to think outside your own pre-constructed world-view and results in intolerance and a pre-occupation with "intention"<<

That's a pretty weak stance when it comes from someone who is so completely imprisoned by their pre-constructed world-view that they feel compelled to frame every "question" in that light.

It's not even as if it is your own pre-constructed world-view - it was put together by someone else, for the sole purpose of telling you how to run your life.

Which is why I explained to you that it was such a shame that you attribute your change of heart on alcohol, to your conversion to Islam. It is precisely that which has imprisoned you, and rendered you incapable of independent thought.

>>Unlike your friend I did not have to be threatened<<

The threat was the catalyst for him to work out for himself, that what he was doing was destructive. Most people will tell you that to bring a person to self-awareness is the only way to break the cycle of delusion in which alcoholics live. Genuine, fully-dependent alcoholics, that is. Not just those who call themselves alcoholics as a form of attention-seeking.

You described yourself as a "binge-drinker", who "required booze as a requisite for 'fun'". That is not at all the same as being an alcoholic.

>>The purpose of the current post (as well as others) was to invite critical scrutiny of statements made in the name of my own faith.<<

It would probably be a good idea, then, for you to explain this as you frame the "question". Instead of trying all that disingenuous social researcher schtick.

<<It would probably be a good idea, then, for you to explain this as you frame the "question". Instead of trying all that disingenuous social researcher schtick.>>

See what i mean about "intention". I am a social researcher so perhaps that explains why i apply the same methods to my faith.

You're so focused on judging others intention you cannot sit back and simply say, OK wheres the argument, is it rational?, is there evidence? Instead, you say OK here's a "godbotherer", he's here to preach, lets give him a serve a la Dawkins. A scientic approach would be to rely on reason and evidence. Resorting to mockery and derision and passing judgement over people's intention is a sign of weakness and failure.

Grateful

Apology accepted.

I am glad you were able to stop binge drinking – if indeed you were a binge drinker as opposed to someone who occasionally had a bit too much. I’m afraid I’m not inclined to take your statements at face value.

Grateful

There is no such thing as a free lunch. There are always trade-offs.

You live in a society that allows Muslims to tell atheists, Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, Jews, Zionists etc that they have it all wrong, that Islam is the only true religion, that Christian scriptures have been corrupted.*

Those rights and my right to say that Islam is equine fertiliser are two sides of the same coin, the right to free speech. You cannot have one without the other. Islam along with ANY belief system or ideology is a LEGITIMATE target for critique, analysis, satire and scorn.

Get that? Islam is a LEGITIMATE target for critique, analysis, satire and scorn.

Just as Gerald Serrano has the right to display a photograph of a crucifix immersed in urine I would have the right to, for example, draw Muhammad, your probably non-existent “prophet”, sucking the sex organ of a pig. Those are the rules of a secular democracy. Freedom includes the freedom to be gross.

You might complain that such a cartoon would be in terrible taste. I agree which is why I, unlike Serrano, would not mock other people’s religious symbols. I don’t believe in gratuitous insults or in hurting people without reason. But I shall defend the right of anyone to publish such a cartoon.

I do loathe Islam. However I think the problem is not Islam but people who confuse an abhorrence for Islam with racism and so end up appeasing a hateful ideology. It is appeasing Islam rather than Islam itself that I see as the problem.

If you don’t want to see me write these things you are free to ignore my posts or, indeed, to eschew this forum. However I suspect that, like so many Muslims, you enjoy feeling offended. I think it makes you feel important.

*by who?