Hi Steven

I have to agree. It is an ongoing source of sadness to me to hear the bleetings of many 'sheep in the street' on their faith position or knowledge.

Many Christians, in my own church as well... have seldom been challenged re their faith, perhaps because they have been rather conveniently or selectively secretive about it.

I regularly 'drop' things on people in my own fellowship which challenge them... but often they simply seem to be on another planet intellectually, or.. if you connect a few dots and they suddenly 'see' it......they then glaze over because they feel powerless to do anything about it...or... you can almost see the bible verse "be in the world but not 'of' it" churning over in their minds, thus justifying political/social apathy.

But Steven, I would love to see your insights re a thread I'm developing..

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4024

I think once it becomes more clear, you will enjoy it..

I'm wondering who the first person will be who 'tweaks' to where it's going :)

Re Pericles, he is a walking contradiction...partly fact and partly fiction. When debating 'me' he has "no interest in obscure ancient texts", I suspect fear is at work there... but debating Grateful ?aaah.. he comes to life :) But debating grateful is like debating a rock...so I don't know why he expends so much wasted energy.

WOOPS...almost missed that Pericles.

I was expecting some kind of 'pot/kettle' thing from you, but as usual, you use that to mask your own polemical duck/weave approach on matters of Biblical knowledge and interpretation.

You know as well as I do, (if ur honest) that the Bible contains many forms of language and style. You know jolly well that a 'parable' is not mean't to be taken 100% literally on a point by point basis, and that when Jesus says "If your eye sins, gouge it out" is not mean't literally... You also know that a clear 'command' "Go into all the world and make disciples of all nations" is absolutely unambiguous and is to be taken 100% literally.

So, sorry old son, you cannot play the 'mask and hide' game with me, I know you too well.

You can identify 'metaphor' where poor gullible Grateful cannot.. but of course he has a 'convert zeal' agenda in proving his newfound faith position to be valid... as much for his own peace of mind as anything most likely.

But when it comes to other portions of the Quran ...such as the clear and unmistakable 'permissions' of Surah 65 or 'commands' in Surah 9 you suddenly become 'blind freddie' ? come-ON mate...you are playing a shell game.. "where is it..this one?" when you know where it is all along.

As to faith, your choice is your choice... but as to understanding literature, you can do much much better..simply by being honest and not calling a stick a rock and so on.

So..how about it ? Let's have some consistency and honesty on understanding documents eh? You don't have to agree with what they call on people to do....but you should at least be able to work out 'what' they are calling people to.

Come on down to Quintus Fabius Maximus :) should prove entertaining.

You give yourself far too much credit, Boaz.

>>Re Pericles, he is a walking contradiction...partly fact and partly fiction. When debating 'me' he has "no interest in obscure ancient texts", I suspect fear is at work there<<

A couple of corrections to your muddled thinking are required.

The "no interest" that you detect is entirely consistent, whether discussing your prejudices and logical shortcomings, or anyone else's. The deliberate selection of verses in your (collective) "special books" serves only to highlight the delusions under which you (collectively) live.

Your suggestion that fear may be at work is a fascinating one. Given that I have been completely even-handed in my analysis of dubious text-selection, what precisely is it that you believe that I fear? I guess it can only be the fear of being "left out" of the faith that you (collective) religion-evangelists seem to believe is an essential component of life on this planet of ours.

On that score, please be completely reassured. As stevenlmeyer predicted, I was one of those who went to "church schools", sung the hymns, recited the prayers. I even accompanied my mother to evensong every so often. Just until I was able and willing to think for myself.

Fear, I can assure you, does not come into it. Unlike for you guys, who are constantly being told to "Fear the Lord". Until, presumably, it becomes second nature.

>>But debating grateful is like debating a rock...so I don't know why he expends so much wasted energy.<<

What you fail to realize, Boaz, thanks to your unflagging self-importance, is that it is precisely the same experience, debating with you.

Nor do I consider either of you to be "wasted energy". It is only by questioning you, and discovering the way that you each rationalize your beliefs, that I learn about the subtleties and nuances of über-religious thinking.

Unfortunately, you folk have a disproportionate level of influence on the way the world turns, so it is essential for the rest of us to remain fully alert to the latest developments in your attempts at control-freakery.

Oh how quickly you prove me right, Boaz!

Delightful.

>>You know as well as I do, (if ur honest) that the Bible contains many forms of language and style. You know jolly well that a 'parable' is not mean't to be taken 100% literally on a point by point basis, and that when Jesus says "If your eye sins, gouge it out" is not mean't literally... You also know that a clear 'command' "Go into all the world and make disciples of all nations" is absolutely unambiguous and is to be taken 100% literally... But when it comes to other portions of the Quran ...such as the clear and unmistakable 'permissions' of Surah 65 or 'commands' in Surah 9...<<

It is simply remarkable, how you are so comprehensively unable to see what stares you in the face. That you cannot see, for example, that a decision on whether the injunction "If your eye sins, gouge it out" is commandment or metaphor, remains absolutely and entirely in the eye of the beholder.

Only those who are already steeped in the mythology will automatically squeak "metaphor, metaphor". And at the same time will select verses from their enemy's scripture and protest "clear and unmistakable command/instruction" over those they feel places their opponents in the worst possible light.

The contradiction inherent in this quite blatant and deliberate interpretation/misinterpretation of ancient texts simply does not occur to you, does it.

It is nothing more nor less than wilful self-delusion, Boaz.

The fact that you are unable to bring yourself even to discuss these things rationally is the perfect measure of how little control your religion allows you to have over your own critical faculties.

>>As to faith, your choice is your choice... but as to understanding literature, you can do much much better..simply by being honest and not calling a stick a rock and so on<<

That's hilarious. Throwing stones at people who don't believe in the same ancient texts that you do is now "understanding literature".

The funniest obfuscation yet. And that is some achievement.

Unfortunately, I am not a physicist ... in spite of trying to understand its laws, to me it is like 'fairies at the bottom of the garden'. This is no reflection on physicists, whom I greatly admire. My uncle, an astrophysicist and atheist, claimed he saw God in the beauty and elegance of a physics equation. I suppose God is different things to different people.

Does the Qur'aan influence the study of science in the Islamic Middle East. Does anyone know if science taught in these areas is 'bad science,' ... such as creationism, as many fundamentalist Christians subscribe to.

Evidence of this type would indicate to what degree Qur'aanic influence is detrimental to scientific enquiry in the modern world. Is the Qur'aan taken literally by educated Muslims?
There are numerous interesting theories about the origins of the Qur'aan.

Hi Danielle,

Yes devout Muslims take the koran literally.

Yes they are creationists.

See for example:

http://www.bookglobal.net/xcart/customer/product.php?productid=4&cat=

This book – largely a rehash of Christian fundamentalist BS with an Islamic slant - was written by Harun Yahya.

See: http://www.harunyahya.com/

Devout Muslims do not accept evolution.

Western scholars are slowly unraveling the true origins of the koran. See for example:

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/03/28/the_origins_of_a_holy_book/

The project is called Corpus Coranicum