Goood CJ :) amazing.. a bit of Biblical input can do wonders for the soul.

The Bible does say "spare the rod and spoil the child" :) but.. anyone who took that any further than basic and fair discipline would be stepping outside of the will of God.

As for my 'family management' techniques.. it's between myself and my Maker and family.. I sure as heck am not going to indulge your sick fantasy of wanting to see all my family laundry hung out so you can shriek "Oh oh..misssssed a spot"

But you seem to do that anyway. So...you get the 'ignore' treatment usually.

Rather than calling me a hypocrite.. why not actually look at the oft presented reference to the Islamic teaching/opinion about 65:4 and give an honest assesment of it ?

Now that would be a real breakthrough.

Boaz, rather than bashing Islam on the basis of some cherrypicked passages from its sacred texts, why don't you acknowledge that the weirdo cult to which you belong is at least as susceptible to the same treatment?

Child abuse, slavery... I bet it wouldn't be too hard to find some biblical passage that justifies wife-beating too. Indeed, don't the Exclusive Brethren make their women wear hijabs and submit to their husbands?

Here's a bit of secular wisdom for you: people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Al
CJ is right. It is easy to cherrypick both Koran and Bible to find what we would, in modern times, find to be unacceptable.

"The Bible does say "spare the rod and spoil the child" :) but.. anyone who took that any further than basic and fair discipline would be stepping outside of the will of God."

But how does one acertain the will of God if the lines between abuse and discipline are not defined. Humans interpret and humans are fallible. It is too open to interpretation and allows the abusive to reign without censure.

What we should be concerned about is any group who seek to segregate and keep their followers ignorant, deny access to children and other family members to ex-followers, deny education and information to be able to make informed choices, tax evasion (etc.) regardless of what faith they purport to practice.

The Australian Curriculum Studies Association has produced a
marvellous guide to help make our schools more inclusive. It is
called "Learning from One Another: Bringing Muslim perspectives into
Australian schools" and has the goal of getting teachers to give the
Islamic perspective on:
English (p.6),
Science (p.11),
Maths (p.14),
History (p.22),
Geography (p.33),
Arts (p.42),
Health and Physical Education (p.51),
Economics and Business (p.53),
Values education, civics and citizenship, global education and religious education (p.57).
http://www.nceis.unimelb.edu.au/school-education/resources-teachers/learning-one-another-resources
Lest anyone be concerned, this is not about proselytising.
We're not talking about those fanatical Exclusive Brethren here.
No this is about inclusiveness, tolerance and respect for diversity
from a culture which can teach us so much about these things.
It's so important to convey the wisdom of Mohammed, as transmitted to
him by Allah, to our children while their young minds are open and
receptive. It also provides an invaluable counterbalance to the
hateful and bigoted Christian doctrine that many of these children
are likely indoctrinated into within what should be the safety of their own homes.
I'm sure we can all agree that this is an important step forward for
multiculturalism, diversity, freedom of thought and reason.
This is a wonderful project conducted out of the University of
Melbourne's National Centre for Excellence for Islamic Studies Australia.
I can't be certain but I believe that the Saudi Arabian government is
kindly sponsoring this endeavour along with many such projects all
around the globe. One can only be impressed by their vision for
global harmony, which lies at the root of their endeavours.
Anybody who wishes to make their feelings known on this progressive
new venture can do so at the following site:
http://islammonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3556:petition-agaist-lfoa&catid=276:fedaral-parliament

Dear CJ..and Pelly...

Let's subject your reasoning to some scrutiny.

Seems I wasted a whole thread some time back on 'how to interpret documents'..which is something any undergraduate has to know in order to write essays and produce meaningful research.

QUESTIONS.

1/ In the reference I gave.. is it or is it not...the opinion of an Islamic scholar... that the meaning of the passage cited is for then, now and forever?

2/ You say "I" cherry picked ? huh? that suggests I grab a passage which just suits my own twisted agenda and VOILA I have something with which to 'frame' the hapless Muzzies, but which of course.. isn't true. So..is is MY opinion that I am offering or..that of a scholar of Islam?

3/ Given the gravity of the issue at stake...do you reallly in your heart of hearts feel that it's just 'cherry picking' of that nature?

The simplest way to avoid lengthy on going dialogues and diatribes about this issue, is to simply read the material..and become aware of it..and do some reflecting about whether such values are fit and proper for our Australian society.

Pelly..I don't hold out much hope for CJ on this..the poor blighter is pretty far gone down that dark side :)..but you? aaah.. I see hope.

Let's generalize it a bit. "IF... a religion (even mine) teaches that it is fine for an old bloke to
-Marry
-Sexually consummate
-Divorce (after deflowering)

a PRE pubescent child......

Isn't this something we should combat and resist?

I wonder if CJ can muster up a yes no answer ? :) Pelly..I'm sure you can.

If we can agree on that much I'd call it progress of a major kind.

Al
You see hope for mois? I must be doing something wrong. :D

Seriously though, Al you know very well that the example of an old fella marrying a pre-pubescent child is a furphy - who but few among us would see that is appropriate.

You mistake those who defend secularism as apologists for Islam or conversely critics of Christianity.

It is fanaticism and hyprocrisy that is at issue.