PAUL1405
back to you for a bit mate.

Old ladies at St Vinnies sorting rags= Christian and "Good"
Bush/Blair invading Iraq =Christian and "Bad"

In your eyes...both are 'Christian' acts. Paul... can you show me from the New Testament any 'command' which might justify Bush/Blair's invasion "in Christs name" ?

I could show you how they might do so as 'emperors' in 'Humanities' name... (Romans 13:1-7 ish.)

But I cannot find any basis of doing such things in 'Christs' name.

In this kind of discussion.. we are back to the 'man of faith' and the 'man of unbelief' syndrome. A person of Biblical faith does not see any such basis. How do I know ? It's simple. While some holy books show and justify 'violent reaction' in the name of it's god to external persecution...such is not the case in the New Testament.

Example. Paul at Lystra.. stoned by the "Joooos" and left for dead.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+14&version=NIV

19Then some Jews came from Antioch and Iconium and won the crowd over. They stoned Paul and dragged him outside the city, thinking he was dead.

REACTION ?

20But after the disciples had gathered around him, he got up and went back into the city.

(With his gang of stormtroopers to hunt down those pesky Joos?) ummm nope....read on.

"The next day he and Barnabas left for Derbe."

21They preached the good news in that city and won a large number of disciples.

AAAah..but wait.. now the juicy stuff begins..right ? :) he was just waiting to gather a BIGGER 'gang'....nowww he has them..."large number"

OK..LETS GET DEM JOOOS ! (Banjo's playing in the back of the pickup)

...Then they returned to Lystra, Iconium and Antioch, 22strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. "We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God,"

awwwww...what a spoiler... I was hoping for some real clan action.....
I jest... but I think you get my point...I hope so anyway.

There is no hint of 'payback'....or.. 'get em'...or..'attack em'

Paul says: "Imitate me, as I imitate Christ"

So...there you have it.

To all you Christians. Yes! Christ was a good bloke. Yes! your Bible is full of good stuff. Now we have got that out of the way, now look at the record of your holy religion over the past 2,000 years. Literally millions have been put to the sward, misery and suffering everywhere, all in the name of Christianity, I don't need to go into detail its all on Google. On balance how can any thinker ever accept that Christianity, or any organized religion for that matter, has been a positive for mankind. It may have started out with the best of intentions some what like Communism, a good idea at the time but oh how wrong its all gone. Answer are Bush, Blair and Howard Christian, they claim they are, show me they are not. You are (all) judged by your (collective) actions, not as it is written, and you fail.
This is not old stuff, it didn't all happen in BC its still going on in 2010, nothing has changed. You(Christians in general) are a bit like the murderer who's defense is "Mum told me to be a good boy." So what.

Runner... the 'values' you list are not restricted to Christians, although only a Christian would bother to add the word 'sacrificial' to an average human act of decency.

As for this line, "The devil himself knows Christ was raised from the dead", leaving aside the non-existence of the Devil, Jesus was the son of god.... so hardly human. God knows all, including the 'death' of Jesus at the hands of the people that God required to do his bidding... does Jesus, who is God, really get to either 'live' or 'die'?

Hardly...God is simply God, and well beyond the human experience or comprehension, so it's a bit of a wild claim to make that he 'died' for any sins, and it most certainly was not a 'sacrifice', since it was predetermined, planned, and known about by its author, God-Jesus.

Foxy... an interesting account of Vinnies... and?

Where is their work to end the economic system that creates extremes of wealth and poverty?

They like things just the way they are, it gives them a sense of 'sacrificial goodness' in their daily lives, along with the Salvos.

I am not sure that Jesus said 'Go build a soup kitchen'... he more likely said 'stop ripping people off and share your wealth' closely followed by 'and stop supporting a corrupt economic system and hiding behind its injustices to make yourselves look good'.

Destroying the current economic system would be a real 'sacrifice', and I do not see too many 'Christians' embarking on that, lest it disrupts their cushy lives.

Foxy I do agree with TBC here regarding St Vinnies.

Churches do indeed (along with many secular charities) provide much needed assistance to poor, impoverished people. However, while the Church's coffers remain full to overflowing and nothing done to progress humanity to a more equitable economic system, Christianity has nothing whatsoever to brag about.

Runner

>>> Sacrificial giving and preferring others to oneself are also hallmarks of individuals and communities that have embraced the gospel message <<<

And you are going to start practising what you preach when exactly?

Severin

'Sacrificial giving and preferring others to oneself are also hallmarks of individuals and communities that have embraced the gospel message <<<

And you are going to start practising what you preach when exactly?

By God's grace I have and will continue to do my best.

Severin... Runner sacrifices his soul every time he posts.

Isn't that enough?