Given the relentless attacks on The Church by secular media I believe there is a need to address the misconceptions which result.

I offer as my first candidate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_Myer

Sidney Myer.. founder of the Myer Emporiom chain.

Sidney Baevski Myer (born Simcha Myer Baevski on 8 February 1878 – 5 September 1934) was an Australian businessman and philanthropist, best known for creating Myer, Australia's largest chain of department stores.

Myer's will was proved at £922,000. His funeral was attended by some 100,000 people. The Sidney Myer Charitable Trust was established, now known as The Sidney Myer Fund, to continue the tradition of philanthropy began by its founder.

The most famous philanthropic funding was for the construction of the Sidney Myer Music Bowl in the Kings Domain in 1958.

The Sidney Myer Music Bowl in Melbourne is named in his honour.

What the Wiki bio does not say..is that Sidney, a man born into the Jewish faith, became a Christian.

//There is no question that Lee Neil's example - his faith informed every facet of his life - had a profound impact on Sidney Myer, leading towards Sidney's conversion and baptism and his practice of strong Christian ethics in business.

Sidney Myer's big-heartedness and generosity, admirable if not legendary in his lifetime, continue to this day in the Sidney Myer fund, but note this: “When he died suddenly in 1934 at 55, Sidney Myer was still a millionaire. He had given more than a million pounds to community projects and left one-tenth of all he possessed to charity and culture.//

Jewish population of Australa 2005 ....102,000

Jews who became Christians ? Only God knows.

Dear Al

I will bite despite the furphy of a topic in response to Foxy's thread. Of course Christians have made huge contributions to this country, we are a Judeo/Christian heritage so it follows that the contributions have been great.

Do you really think Christians are demonised more than Muslims in the media?

I cannot think of any time where Christians have been demonised in Australia. If you are thinking in terms of the child abuse revelations, this criticism has been warranted - it is not a baseless accusation that the Chruch did nothing in the face of a growing problem.

This is not demonisation, merely a plea for accountability.

Personally, I tend not to think in terms of contributions from groups, but from individuals no matter which ethnic group they belong.

Can I bite too?

If Myer truly followed Christ's ideology, how is it that he still had so much money when he died? Why is it that he didn't sell all his capital and distribute all his wealth when he first joined this cult?

Well..the prize for religious vilification :) goes to..AIME. "cult"
Interesting that you actually attack a man who did well in business, gave away at least the same amount that he ended up with...yet you attack him as a 'cult' member ? shame.
Aime...at his funeral they reckon half of Melbourne turned out. I think you are in a minority there.

Pick on one of the abusive priests..not one who seems to have done only good.

Pelly.. try this on for 'demonized'...

http://www.theage.com.au/national/investigations/sex-abuse-victim-told-to-go-to-hell-20090810-efkm.html

The way that story was constructed shows it had no other goal than to demonize 'The Church' of whatever flavor.

The sensationalist headline "go to hell...bitch" with a deliberate picture of an angry Arch Bishop.

But pelly.. you made an important observation.. peoples contributions to Australia should NOT be reported in terms of their religion or ethnicity..but their personhood.

That's why some of us took exception to Foxy's blatant 'Islmophilia'..she was trying to force an overlay of 'nice moderate' Islam on ALL our perceptions of ALL Muslims..whether she admits it or not.

Catholics have made some wonderful contributions to helping the Poor and lifting up those who are downtrodden. St Vinnies for one.

The demonization in the Age was just that.. deliberate and calculated.
I went into that story deeply..and raised a RRT complaint.. so I had feedback from the Journalist Nick McKenzie on it.

Can you remember a movie you saw where the 'Christian' was not a molesting, abusing, nut case ?

Can ANYone recall a movie which portrayed Christians as decent, upstanding people ? I suppose 7th heaven might qualify there.

Having said all that.. it is ABSOLUTELY true that some Priests and religious figures calling themselves "Christian" have done some awful things. It's a bit difficult though to connect such behavior with the one they claim to follow. This is 'WHY' the likes of Proxy go on with such vehemence about the 'other mob'...ie...it can be connected...directly.

If anyone wishes to criticize 'Christianity'.. feel free.. but do so on the basis of what it actually teaches please..not on how some have acted.

Well..the prize for religious vilification :) goes to..AIME. "cult"
Thank you, thank you. I always try my best:-)

"Interesting that you actually attack a man who did well in business"
Bit strong AGiR. Come on! I only asked a simple question. Couldn't actually attack the man. I barely knew him!

And please don't get defensive about your "Christian" church. I think all religions of all persuasions are cults. They heard you like sheep and fleece you of your money. Just take a look at all the preachers of churches like the Salt Shakers, Seven Day Adventists, Assembly of God etc. How is it that those preachers all drive fancy cars, have an expensive hair-do and suits, while half the congregation can only manage their "Sunday best" which isn't always that flash I might add.

My only great regret is that 'men and women' of God couldn't get a glimpse of recognition at the time of their deaths and realise that all their praying and hatred of the devil (and anybody else who wasn't "one of them") was all for nothing. If only they could realise that after death, there's nothing out there and never will be. Death equals "lights out!" You become atoms to be spread around the world by way of worms, grass and that which eats the worms and grass, or carried on the wind via the smoke from the crematorium to become smog in a distant city. That's what life after death is all about!

AGIR <" Can ANYone recall a movie which portrayed Christians as decent, upstanding people ?"

I can, and these are just a few of the ones I found. Go to any good Christian book store AGIR, and you will find many more.

I am surprised you didn't know:

Joseph, 1995
Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat, 1999
Moses (1996, TNT Bible Series)
The Prince of Egypt
The Ten Commandments: The Musical
The Ten Commandments, 2006 TV series
The Ten Commandments, 2007
Jeremiah (1998, TNT Bible Series)
Daniel and the Lions (Liken Bible Series), 2006
David and Goliath (Liken Bible Series), 2005
Solomon & Sheba (1995) (TV) (USA)
The Kingdom of Solomon, 2009
Samson and Delilah, 1996 (TNT Bible Series)
The Passion of the Christ (2004) (USA)
The Son of Man (2005) (South Africa)
The First Christmas (Liken Bible Series (2006) (USA)
The Gospel of Mark (2006)
The Nativity Story (2006) (USA)
Color of the Cross (USA) (2006)

Anyone can find movies about good and bad people of any religious persuasion, just as you can in real life.

Dear Suz

thanx for that. Though some of them were not 'Christian' more Old Testament stuff..and others were specifically produced by Christians.

I'm referring more to the output from Hollywood.

I'm happy to be informed if you have any more.. I must confess that our image and self esteem feels like it's been rather battered since the 60s.

Though..I was overwhelmed by the very generous and warm reception and interaction from some very intelligent people at the MindBodySpirit festival. (including a Muslim :).. all it takes is an attitude of moving toward truth and when limits are reached with understanding difficult issues... we just have to admit it.
People seem to respect this.

I spoke with a woman who had 2 children 'out of wedlock' as she put it..and over which she felt that 'The Church' did not see her in a very positive light. She transferred this to her perception of God..

I read the following passage to her..

1 Cor 13:1-7
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13&version=NIV

I think you will see why.

cheers and thanx for your helpful contribution.

Dear Aime

your comments about

//They heard you like sheep and fleece you of your money. Just take a look at all the preachers of churches like the Salt Shakers, Seven Day Adventists, Assembly of God etc. How is it that those preachers all drive fancy cars, have an expensive hair-do and suits//

are very negative and full of HATE... you are a TROLL.. back OFF .. you are EVIL ...

*gotcha* :) kidding.

You are absolutely correct.. and I'm glad you raised those points.

You touched on what, in evangelical circles is called "The Prosperity Gospel"...characterized by "Trussst GOD.. Givvvvve to GOD..and he will BLESS YOU abundantly with prosperity.. finance miracles.. romance miracles.. job miracles... etc etc."

One of the most blatant of this is found in "Rev" Peter Popoff.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3164858&page=1

AAah that MIRACLE SPRING WATER :)

What did Jesus teach about being his dispiple?

"Blessed are the meek"
"If any man would follow me let him deny himself and take up his cross daily"

How did the early Church act in regard to material things ?

44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. (Acts 2)

It's always a good idea to consult the 'owners manual' for cars and also for faith.

It will help us to recognize scams and falsehood.

Dear Al,

What a wonderful idea for a thread, and
I am so pleased that I inspired you to
start something positive.

There are of course many positive contributions
of Australian Christians to our society.

Saint Vincent de Paul is the largest Catholic charity.
There are many others. Dr Paul Collins
tells us in his book, "Believers..."
"...in the heart of Melbourne's St Kilda, parts of which
are a 'red light' district, Sacred Heart Mission, provides
300 to 400 people with a three-course lunch every day.
It all began in 1982 in the presbytery kitchen next to
the Italian Rennaisance-style church when Father Ernie
Smith, then parish priest, started feeding lonely people
from local boarding houses. He told 'The Age,' (19/05/03)
that many people 'had landed in rooming houses without any
support. It was a world of loneliness...People used to
say St Kilda was a bad place, but I'd say, 'No, it's not
a bad place, it's a sad place.'
The meals not only offer nutrition, but also
try to build community and create social connections
among homeless people..."

Then there's Father Chris Riley who began his work for
youth in Sydney. He founded and developed 'Youth Off the
Streets' (YOTS). A member of the Salesians of Don Bosco,
an Italian-founded religious order devoted to the care of
youth.

Australia
already has one saint, Blessed Mary Mackillop. Many think
the second should be a Wiradjuri woman from Cowra in
central-western New South Wales, Colleen Shirley Smith,
known to everyone as 'Mum Shirl.' Over the years Mum Shirl
influenced Father Ted Kennedy at Saint Vincent's parish
in Sydney's Redfern, when he turned the resources of the
church over to caring for dispossessed urban Aborigines.

"The Encyclopedia of Aboriginal Australia," says that her
work at Saint Vincent's "evolved into an informal welfare
agency for a mixed clientele of ex-prisoners, children
in need, single parents, alcoholics, and young probationers.
With no money of her own, she often ran her services on her
own sickness benefits... By the 1990s Mum Shirl had assisted
some 6000 people."

Al I read that piece a couple of times. I can see no demonisation, the story was indeed written with a sensational headline but this is the nature of the media and would have been the same as comments from an Imam. Remember the Hilaly comments about uncovered meat.

If the report is honest in factual content, I cannot see a case for demonisation, if the facts have been misreported with the intent of inflicting harm on the reputation of the Catholic Church without basis then that is a different matter. The Catholic Church and any Church has to take responsibility for their own behaviour, just as a militant Imam has to take responsibility for inciting violence.

There is no issue with religion. As an atheist I am not for or against any religious belief as long as that belief does no harm to others. In most faiths, there is more good than bad - it is simply that the bad is usually grist to the mill for a journalist's pen.

"very negative and full of HATE... you are a TROLL.. back OFF .. you are EVIL ...

*gotcha* :) kidding."

Ha,ha,ha! Loved it!

You know, I was dragged up in the Catholic church system. A small child without rights and couldn't understand the bullying I experienced by some of the nuns. It wasn't a case of 'my way or the highway' but rather "my way or you don't get out of here alive!" Were these really disciples of God? By the time I left school, I was changed forever, but brainwashed so that I still feared an afterlife of misery and suffering. I guess I didn't get out of there alive!

In my thirties, I began to study various religions and found them all to be wanting. Religion began to make less and less sense. Held up against logic, religion pales into insignificance. I kept asking myself and anyone who would listen.... "How is it that every brand of religion says they're the only true church? All but one of them must be wrong, but which one?" Buddhism came the closest for me, but unfortunately I can't believe in the notion of reincarnation, so Buddhism becomes meaningless for me although I do try and follow their philosophy on money and the treatment of sentient beings. Make only what you need to live on and hurt nothing alive. When I eat a piece of chicken or open a can of tuna, I even fall down on that one. Mind you, I refuse to eat dead lambs!

So getting back to Mr. Meyer, he was a great producer of money, but using Buddhist rationalisation, why the need to make so much money? Isn't enough to live on enough?

I'm sure we could debate this religious thing for hours Mr. AGiR, but in the end, it would amount to nothing. I came to realise years ago that you can't make a dedicated religious person see sense, especially one who knows their craft, so I now simply ask these people to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

One Australian I admire is Fred Nile. His bold declaration of truth despite having urine thrown at him and being spat at is admirably. Any Christian who stands for any kind of godliness is likely to receive this kind of treatment from fundies from the secular field. Fred has been fighting for what is decent for a long time now. He deserves a medal.

Dear Aime
thanx for that interesting self disclosure and sharing.

Let me comment on one point....

"Were these really disciples of God?"

Absolutely not!

They were servants of a beaurocratic human structure, bereft of the Holy Spirit and of love in my opinion.

I think your current position is could be a reaction to that experience as much as anything else.

Yep..we could indeed do the 'religious talk' thing :) and your conclusion is possibly correct "agree to disagree"

But please don't discount the reality of the Holy Spirit who can and does change hearts. All I can say is please look further.. look deeper.. explore the real Jesus.. if possible by forgetting the atrocious experience in the RC church/school system.

You will meet Him in any of the Gospels :)

It helps a lot to meet or know a warm hearted true believer. That can be very therapeutic.

Thanx Runner..yep Fred is a bloke who will not compromise and you always know where you stand with him. He's probably a bit rigid for my style, but .. we need all types :)

AGIR, when I first came here to this website I read in a thread that you are in fact a poster who used to go by the name Boazy (or something like that). This was confirmed by Mr Young, the owner of this site.

What happened? Why did you sign up again under a different name? Were you banned? Or did you merely go away, and come back under a new name? What were the circumstance regarding you not continuing to use your original name?

Should you answer these questions? I think "yes". After all you're a good Christian. Good Christians are just like Jesus, in as much they have nothing to hide, after all they're "good"....... and honest. So tell us Boazy, what happened? Don't forget to tell the truth now!

I ask these questions so I can get a better handle on where you're coming from with this topic. It seems a bit odd that the thread title is virtually a copy of Foxy's title. Would this thread have been started by you if Foxy had not started her thread? I think we all know the answer to that one. I'm trying to get a handle on how "genuine" you really are with this topic. Depending on your answers to my questions, I may, or may not, directly address the actual topic.

“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God”
Bible quote

Based on this gem from the Bible, I would say the chances are poor old Syd's burning in Hell right now.

Also to be a true follower of Christ (christian) wasn't there something about casting off all your worldly goodies.

Hi Benq

yes..I was under another name 'back then'.. and I was banned..for a whole year :) sin binned.

I'm not sure exactly why but I think it happened just after I called some ex politician an 'idiot'..and I mean't it.. in the technical sense of the word.. making poor judgements which were likely to harm our community and peace.. I don't say those things just to abuse people.

The reason for the current name, is one of 'incarnational activism' you might say.. Al Gore is the primary (false) prophet of 'Global Warming/Climate Change'... and his is very very rich..and he has his fingies in a company called 'Generation Investements' LLP
http://www.generationim.com/about/team.html
That company is one of the 10 top shareholders in a carbon trading company "CLimate Exchange" Europe.
http://www.climateexchangeplc.com/investor-relations/shares-in-issue-top-10-holders

Just look down the list.

Gore is closely connected to one Maurice Strong the UN 'Mr Environment' of a few years ago until a scandal made him run for cover.
Strong gave us the
-Stockholm Conference
-Earth Summit in Rio
out of which Kyoto came ..

Kyoto involves a lot about 'Carbon Trading'....

He is a director of the Chicago Climate Exchange (Gore is a shareholder)

http://www.chicagoclimatex.com/content.jsf?id=67

Please check the links to confirm this information.

It's like this.

GORE TO THE WORLD "We are all DOOOOMMMMEDDD...we must have Cap and TRADE laws"

Gore to his Stockbroker "Bill... buy me more shares in the CCX"

Hence my name :)

PS.. the Greens have 132 pages of 'sustainable climate' bill
I have less than 350 words..
-Carbon Tax (small)
-Leading to Subidized Solar arrays+Grid connect inverters for homes.

OUTCOME .. reduced carbon footprint, lower electricity costs.

Ben...sorry I didn't answer some questions of yours.

Would this thread have been started if Foxy had not done hers?

Unlikely. I did it in the interess of balance and fairness.
It also provides a way of expressing views which foxy could be intolerant of.

Grateful has used the other thread as a proselytizing tool, rather than just speaking about people from his faith making a contribution.

I feel we don't need to link 'positive' contributions to specific faiths...but when people DO....then it can evoke a response.

Paul.. taken to extremes "cast off this worlds goods" can lead to the Millerites selling everything and going to some hill in expectation of the 2nd coming. Look at Acts 2 for some guidance there please.
(and Marx thought he was original ? :)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+2&version=NIV
verses 42 to end of chapter.

The eye of the needle was a physical place. It was a bit of a squeeze if on donkey back I'm told, but not impossible. Again.. you need to understand Jesus method of speaking "If you hand sins..cut it off"

Do you see his method ?

BENQ..back2u.. mind filling me in on your own perspective.. political affiliation religious if any, leanings...activism etc ? :)

Now Boaz, respect the question please.

benq asked, most sincerely...

>>Don't forget to tell the truth now!<<

Your history is there for all to see, from Boaz_David (8/1/05 - 25/6/08, then 5/1/09 (oops, overlap with Polycarp) and 18/1/09 - 2/2/09), through Polycarp (25/6/08 - 16/1/09), then a brief appearance as no_THIS_ismeBD, with five posts on 19/5/09, followed by your present incarnation, ALGOREisRICH, also started on 19/5/09.

There may be others, but your style is so unmistakable I think you would have been spotted by someone.

>> I was banned..for a whole year :) sin binned. I'm not sure exactly why...<<

So do tell, Boaz, which of your personae was banned? I must admit that this is the first I had heard of a ban on you - surely it wasn't the sin of simultaneous posting under two names, as that only happened once as far as I can tell, on 5/1/09.

Technically, of course, you repeated the sin between 11:18 on 19th and 06:47 on 20th, when the combination of no_THIS_ismeBD and ALGOREisRICH managed to fit in 25 posts, but since it was a once-off I doubt you should be penalized.

For the record, benq, Boaz used to occupy his time - particularly in his Boaz and Polycarp days - proselytizing like crazy. Which makes his remark...

>>Grateful has used the other thread as a proselytizing tool<<

...highly risible. Even those nicks were, by his own admission, based upon his somewhat unique take on religious issues.

So if you are serious about getting "a better handle on where you're coming from with this topic", and not just having a sideways chuckle at the level of debate on this thread, just be a little aware of the five-year history of whack-a-mozzie antics for which this chap is been justly notorious.

AGIR and So Is George W Bush

Wasn't going to post here until I read the following:

>> Would this thread have been started if Foxy had not done hers?

Unlikely. I did it in the interess of balance and fairness.
It also provides a way of expressing views which foxy could be intolerant of. >>

Balanced?

Christianity is the dominant religion in Australia. 70% of people claim to be Christian.

Islam is less than 10% of the population.

Balanced? Not even on the same playing field.

Fair?

Islam is continuously maligned because of it fundamentalist contingent. Therefore, Foxy was trying to bring fairness and if you, AGIR, were sincere you could've have started a thread about contributions by an equally marginalised religion, for example, Judaism. A religion often under attack for its Zionist element.

Christianity is neither marginalised nor maligned. Both our PM and Leader of the Opposition claim to be Christians. Our parliament opens with Christian ritual prayer.

Finally, your comments regarding Foxy are little more than slander. Claiming the one person on this forum who behaves with more of the values espoused by the NT by her genuine compassion and TOLERANCE than you or Runner or the like ever have expressed here is laughable. Under your pseudonyms from Boaz_david, Polycarp to date, you attack, malign any with a differing view point.

BTW since your return, I have been away too. I didn't expect to be back due to ill health. You would remember me as Fractelle. Unlike you I did not have to be outed by others as I explained in my early posts on my return the fact of my previous moniker.

One positive contribution of Australian Christians?

Foxy
Foxy
Foxy

I'm sure that the positive contributions of Australian Christians are too many to ennumerate. However, they are lately regularly eclipsed by the negative actions of the relatively few fundamentalist godbotherers, Islamophobes and kiddy fiddlers who spread fear and loathing in the wider community, and/or subject children to abuse.

Re Boazy's 'sabbatical' - it was for using one of his sockpuppet accounts while another was suspended, as I recall.

Al,
That's a new one on me, the eye of a needle thing and donkeys and rich men. didn't some pope once claim black men didn't have a soul all a matter of interpretation
For me I like this one:

Spectator: I think it was "Blessed are the cheesemakers".
Mrs. Gregory: Aha, what's so special about the cheesemakers?
Gregory: Well, obviously it's not meant to be taken literally; it refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.

Life of Brian 1979.

Oh dear, what a lot of white noise!

I missed whatever time bomb Foxy set off and have merely scanned through 4 pages of comments here, with too many to bother to respond to all at once.

But I like this one:

"Catholics have made some wonderful contributions to helping the Poor and lifting up those who are downtrodden. St Vinnies for one."

There are so many 'good folk' helping 'the poor folk' with largesse and noblesse oblige that one wonders why there are any 'poor folk' left.

But the truth is that people like Vinnie's have no desire to see the back of 'poor folk' because that would leave them with nothing to do, and no excuse for their tax-free status and dominant and privileged position in society.

If any of these so-called Christians were the least bit interested in ending poverty, then they'd start to educate 'the poor folk' into understanding why they were poor, and others were grossly and unseemingly rich, including all the so-called Christian churches.

But they do not want that, because power and poverty are in balance, for them.

As I recall the Vinnie mob they were/are part of the DLP wing of politics, supportuing the neo-fascist Santamaria with his hopes for a return to an agrarian based corporate state... which thankfully he never achieved.

Let us see them establish education centres, and feed the minds of the downtrodden with information and an understanding of why Cardinals, Archbishops, Bishops and other limpets live an exalted life of Riley, while the role of the 'poor folk' is to remain poor, to justify the lives of their 'betters'.

Did I see that hoary auld line somewhere when one responder asked if the nuns that had abused him were lined up with Jesus, and the acolyte responded with a "no... they were not 'real Christians'" or something along those lines?

Isn't that always the claim.... when a 'Christian' does something wrong, the believers denounce them as 'not being a real Christian'

There's more folks 1/2.

2/2
It's getting real hard to find a 'real Christian' anywhere, in fact... but they do say, 'it's so hard to get good help these days', don't they?

Unless, of course, a 'real Christian' is Tony Blair, or George Bush, or some other exalted person who hears voices in the night telling them where to take us all the next day?

But the acolyte did get one fact correct... the Church we see here on Earth, which is the only place it exists after all, is entirely manmade, and I use that phrase quite deliberately, because the women only managed to make the tea and sarnies while men built up this ridiculous and highly dishonest 'religious' empire of mind and place....although, unfortunately, according to the ABS stats, it is women who fall for it far more than men, who simply run it all.

Ah... too many posts all at once, sorry about that, but I must ask the author what s/he means here:

"Given the relentless attacks on The Church by secular media"

This is a line straight out of the mouth of George Pell, or from the Family Jensen, or Christopher Pearson, or Andrew Bolt...or, or, or.

What is 'the secular media'?

Does the author prefer to read national newspapers written by some form of Talibanised religious media organisation?

We need a 'secular media' so we can read a range of news and opinions (not that newscorp gives a range of anything much), and the last thing we need is a 'non-secular' media group muscling in to the market.

I am fed up with this sort of silly cry, using 'secular' as a form of abuse, or not-quite-legitimate source of anything.

Where is the author... explain yourself, or retract this nonsense now, please.

A lot of positive contributions by Christians to Australian society would have been made DESPITE their Christianity, not because of it.

>> It's getting real hard to find a 'real Christian' anywhere

They look something like this: http://www.starnewsgroup.com.au/story/90369

the usual culprits who desperately want to define Christians by their own made up definitions. So much self righteousness and delusion by those wanting to justify their own godless lives.

Runner... "define Christians by their own made up definitions"...OK, give us a definition of 'a Christian', and then a 'not real Christian', and then show what qualities specifically belong to only a Christian, and no one else please.

I am sure there are many here who are all ears.

The Blue Cross,

The term Christian was given to believers in the death and Resurrection of Christ. The gift of eternal life was/is offered on the basis of Christ's righteousness and not any man's self righteousness which is like a filthy rag to God. Most of the above assumptions are based upon man's effort and self righteousness. If their is no belief in the resurrection of Christ then Christianity is a sad joke. Most wanting to define their self righteous view of Christianity certainly don't believe the Scriptures. It is the sick who need a doctor and going by the self righteous rants of many I don't think they have been diagnosed. Most have made up their mind what sin is and isn't based on how they want to live their life thus being in denial. The death of Christ was a useless hoax if we could receive eternal life any other way other than Him. Fortunately it was not a hoax unlike some of the modern day ones like gw.

runner, I have no doubt that Phil Grano (the subject of the article to which woulfe linked) believes in "the death and Resurrection of Christ".

That makes him just as Christian as you, doesn't it?

Runner....

Not sure you've supplied the full answer.

"Most wanting to define their self righteous view of Christianity certainly don't believe the Scriptures."...how do you know that?

"It is the sick who need a doctor and going by the self righteous rants of many I don't think they have been diagnosed."... hmm, being 'diagnosed' might be in the eye of the beholder Runner.

"The death of Christ was a useless hoax"... stop there while you are ahead.... "if we could receive eternal life any other way other than Him" but you have no idea if there is 'eternal life' only a bad dream that there is such a fate.

"Fortunately it was not a hoax" come on!... "unlike some of the modern day ones like gw"... what is 'gw'?

So, all you describe is what so-called Christians might believe. Surely, if all those who claim to be 'Christian' generally believe what you outline, then they are Christian?

But what about all those who say they are 'Christian', yet do horrible things, and are denounced as being 'not real Christians' by people who insist that they have the right to determnbe who is and who is not a 'real Christian'?

And, if that is all that makes a person a Christian, then what about 'Christian values' such as Julie Bishop says she can recognise in others (but not in herself as I read her life)?

List the 'Christian values' that no one else has.... all ears still.

Dear The Blue Cross,

"Vinnies" (St Vincent de Paul),
a Catholic lay organisation founded
to support and care for the poor,
was introduced into Australia
in 1854.

Dr Paul Collins, in his book, "Believers,"
tells us that:

"The growth here has been remarkable. In 2007
there were 19516 members and volunteers in
New South Wales and the Australian Capital
Territory, 7973 in Queensland, 7682 in Victoria,
and 7300 in the other states and the Northern
Territory. Nationally there are almost 42500
members and volunteers, easily making it
Australia's largest charity."

"Members serve through local parish 'conferences'
in which social and class distinctions are ignored.
'Need' is the only test applied. No one is asked
about their religion, race, social status, gender
preference, or belief. The local conference works
through home visitation and directly assists needy
families and people with food vouchers and the
payment of bills. These parish-based conferences are
free of clerical control; this is the work of
self-directed laity whose aim is to meet the needs of
those most marginalised in society. Volunteers don't
have to be Catholics; in some places more than half
are not."

"What is extraordinary is the range of services offered
by Vinnies in New South Wales and the ACT. Its 37
facilities provide 692 beds and 36 outreach programs:
14 facilities for single, homeless men (356 beds),
six for single women (48 beds), five for families
(49 beds and cots), two for men with children (22 beds
and cots), seven for women with children (199 beds and
cots), and two for young people (18 beds). In Sydney,
Liverpool and other New South Wales towns night patrols
provide soup kitchens and provide sandwiches and warm
drinks as well as friendship for people sleeping rough."

In the other states and territories the Society provides
parallel services.

The total number of people annually assisted by Vinnies
is an extraordinary 1.8 million.

The Salvation Army provides similar services and they
are very up-front about publicising their activities.
In contrast, Vinnies are unobtrusive, publicity-shy,
de-centralised, less hierarchical, and far less
obviously prominent. They represent Catholicism at its
best.

Hiii Fraccy :) I've missed you. Sorry to hear of your ill health. Hope you recover soon. Re Foxy.. she is a crafty one.. you think she is sincere..and I do also, but sincerly misguided in a dangerous way..ie.. if her uncautious uncritical attitude spread.. we would be more vulnerable to many devious forces.

Pericles has a way about him.. dates.. times.. overlaps.. amazing.
To think..he can do all that just to try to damage someone, yet he cannot lift a finger or a keystroke to determine if there is a reasonable foundation to what people say.

This is explained by the fact that Pericles is not a person of faith.
Same as CJ and some others.. but those two are the most notorious.
Because of this, their outbursts present a challenge and need compassion. (seriously) How can one condemn such behavior when it comes from such a tragic human condition. (unrealized it seems)
I should refrain from such criticism.. I've dished out a bit of late.

Pericles... for the record, the only time I deliberately infringed the rules was the 'no this is me' one...and that was not for my sake but for Hermans..and for those who thought it was me.

Anything else you observe is certainly not deliberate.. I've never posted (to my recollection) under 2 nicks at one time. I deleted all other accounts that I'm aware of.

Seems I've caused quite a fuss with all this attention :) woopee.
It's better than being ignored I guess.

I don't mind a bit of robust back and forth.. after all.. this is the kind of place for it.

I was just warming to Ginx and her colorful rhetoric.. but she was banned.

Wasn't Adolph Hitler a Catholic? If he was maybe he understood Christian values better than the rest of us, after all they did crucify the boss, just lucky for Syd he became a Catholic because its the only way to get a ticket into heaven, is it not, regardless of what else you may do in life, so Sister Mary told me at convent school, and she should know, had been in the club for about 60 years, I was 8 years old.
I don't think Christians have a monopoly on lunacy, plenty of our Muslim (and others) brethren are just as ratty, all in the name of religion. The only true religion is Amway so all you members of Nutrimetics can burn in hell!

Even if this were true...

<<To think..[Pericles] can do all that just to try to damage someone, yet he cannot lift a finger or a keystroke to determine if there is a reasonable foundation to what people say.>>

How on Earth would the lack of “faith” - something that makes a virtue out of not thinking - explain the above?

<<This is explained by the fact that Pericles is not a person of faith.>>

And all the while referring to Pericles as the “Fact Ferret”.

I’m speechless.

I'm notorious, apparently :P

TBC, you certainly seem to have a very dim view of humanity. Every time I bump into one of your posts you are mouthing off about somebody: teachers, sportsmen, charities, immigrants . . . I can't imagine living a life surrounded by people I loathe so much!

But seriously - if you really believe that tens of thousands of volunteers give up their time and money to help the homeless just to give themselves something to do, I'd say you need a reality check. Could it be that Vinnies do what they do because they are trying to help the world? At the end of the day, they are not ending poverty. But they are feeding the hungry and housing the homeless while others - including other arms of the Catholic Church, among many others - look at ways of solving the bigger problem. As Foxy said, and as I truly believe, this is Catholicism at its best. It isn't its exclusive best - plenty of other organisations do the same - but it is a collective of Catholics living out the scriptures they hold dearest. It seems that they're damned if they do, and damned if they don't: if they weren't working for these charities, you'd be calling them hypocrites.

The Blue Cross

you ask/state
'So, all you describe is what so-called Christians might believe. Surely, if all those who claim to be 'Christian' generally believe what you outline, then they are Christian?
But what about all those who say they are 'Christian', yet do horrible things, and are denounced as being 'not real Christians' by people who insist that they have the right to determine who is and who is not a 'real Christian'?'

At the end of the day Christ Himself will sort the wheat from the weeds or genuine from the fake. The devil himself knows Christ was raised from the dead and that his future along with his followers is the pit of fire. A person's actions will show if they have really submitted to the resurrected Christ as Lord. A genuine follower of Christ knows that it is only Christ's righteousness that will save him/her because they have none of their own.

'And, if that is all that makes a person a Christian, then what about 'Christian values' such as Julie Bishop says she can recognise in others (but not in herself as I read her life)?
List the 'Christian values' that no one else has.... all ears still.'

I am not sure what Christian values that Julie Bishop refers to. However turning the other cheek and loving ones enemies is certainly unique values taught by Christ. Sacrificial giving and preferring others to oneself are also hallmarks of individuals and communities that have embraced the gospel message

I think I'll summarise my response to this post by saying that religions, Christian and otherwise, have prompted some people to do wonderful things for our country. Certainly there are many religious people who contribute nothing, and certainly there are many non-religious people who do wonderful things. At the end of the day, religions may sit alongside other philosophies that, when followed in the proper spirit, bring much goodness to the world.

That said, there are many other - purely secular - philosophies that achieve the same purpose, and produce adherents who may have the appearance of Christians, Muslims, Buddhists et al in their piety and general decency. A wonderful little book, The Consolations of Philosophy by Alain de Botton (available as a Popular Penguin for the bargain price of $9.95 or thereabouts) opened my eyes to this. It showed me that there are many outlooks on life that bring about inner peace and a desire to do good in the world. They may also help people to be at peace with those who despise them (love their enemies), and to forsake anger (turn the other cheek). I think that many people follow these philosophies without realising - reading through them, many resonated with me and did little more than bring to the front of my mind ideas that had long resided in the back.

So yeah - Christians, Muslims and people from all religious persuasions have the capacity to do good, and for many of them religion is the catalyst that turns the potential energy into something more kinetic. And for many others, good deeds are brought about by different catalysts or, in some cases, by no catalyst at all.

On one side of the equation you have the old ladies down at St Vinnies, sorting old rags for the poor and needy, doing their good Christian act in the name of God. On the other side of the equation you have the likes of George Bush, Tony Blair, John Howard etc and all those who support them killing millions of innocent men, women and children, doing their good Christian act in the name of God. I don't hear your Pope or any other Pious Preachers jumping up and down and condemning those that murder in the name of God, after all God did command "You shall not kill" or do you Christians have another interpretation on that one. Its a fact that so many who claim to be Christian are the first to demand the murder of the innocent in the name of God, just take a look at those in the Bible Belt of the USA.
Just on Sydney Myer, after all it is his thread, if on the 5th September 1934 old Sid got to the Pearly Gates and instead of St Peter waiting for him there was Moses "Sorry Sid! Jews only!" would have been an all round s#it day for Syd.

PAUL1405 :) "The only true religion is Amway so all you members of Nutrimetics can burn in hell!"

Now that is 'extreme' funny.

AJ PHILLIPS
There is quite a long context to Pericles antics. It involves much back and forth between his eminent self and my bedraggled self. Pericles has said "For the gazillionth time...I am not interested in comparative religion" which is his response to requests like "why don't you actually look......at the material provided to see if what we say has foundation"..that kind of thing. The 'material' suggested was a very clear Islamic opinion about a certain matter.

One thing which might explain such errant behavior is a very stubborn clinging to unbelief. But there's more. A mind without faith, cannot understand how 'holy documents' impact or effect a person 'of' faith. So..for example when I point to a portion of a holy book which requires or exemplifies behavior which is quite radical ..such as 'beat your disobedient wife' he sees the mention of such things as 'spreading fear,hate and loathing' rather than responsible public interest journalsim such as the Herald Article below. The issue at stake, (in our previous discussion)that his comments relate to are found here..if you are interested to find out.

http://www.quranenglish.com/tafheem_quran/065.htm
scroll to the place where it says "65:4" read the verse, then scroll to *13 and read on. See if there is anything you find problematic from the 10th line of *13 to the end of the paragraph.

Personally..I would consider the exposure of such teaching to be of great benefit to Australia... it seems Pericles is not prepared to even investigate to see if such a view has foundation.

Remember this?.... it also involved the ill treatment of children.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/editorials/rein-in-family-cult/story-e6frfhqo-1225761995036

I suppose the Herald Sun is 'spreading hatred fear and loathing' :)
At least in Pericles strange world it does.

PAUL1405
back to you for a bit mate.

Old ladies at St Vinnies sorting rags= Christian and "Good"
Bush/Blair invading Iraq =Christian and "Bad"

In your eyes...both are 'Christian' acts. Paul... can you show me from the New Testament any 'command' which might justify Bush/Blair's invasion "in Christs name" ?

I could show you how they might do so as 'emperors' in 'Humanities' name... (Romans 13:1-7 ish.)

But I cannot find any basis of doing such things in 'Christs' name.

In this kind of discussion.. we are back to the 'man of faith' and the 'man of unbelief' syndrome. A person of Biblical faith does not see any such basis. How do I know ? It's simple. While some holy books show and justify 'violent reaction' in the name of it's god to external persecution...such is not the case in the New Testament.

Example. Paul at Lystra.. stoned by the "Joooos" and left for dead.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+14&version=NIV

19Then some Jews came from Antioch and Iconium and won the crowd over. They stoned Paul and dragged him outside the city, thinking he was dead.

REACTION ?

20But after the disciples had gathered around him, he got up and went back into the city.

(With his gang of stormtroopers to hunt down those pesky Joos?) ummm nope....read on.

"The next day he and Barnabas left for Derbe."

21They preached the good news in that city and won a large number of disciples.

AAAah..but wait.. now the juicy stuff begins..right ? :) he was just waiting to gather a BIGGER 'gang'....nowww he has them..."large number"

OK..LETS GET DEM JOOOS ! (Banjo's playing in the back of the pickup)

...Then they returned to Lystra, Iconium and Antioch, 22strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. "We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God,"

awwwww...what a spoiler... I was hoping for some real clan action.....
I jest... but I think you get my point...I hope so anyway.

There is no hint of 'payback'....or.. 'get em'...or..'attack em'

Paul says: "Imitate me, as I imitate Christ"

So...there you have it.

To all you Christians. Yes! Christ was a good bloke. Yes! your Bible is full of good stuff. Now we have got that out of the way, now look at the record of your holy religion over the past 2,000 years. Literally millions have been put to the sward, misery and suffering everywhere, all in the name of Christianity, I don't need to go into detail its all on Google. On balance how can any thinker ever accept that Christianity, or any organized religion for that matter, has been a positive for mankind. It may have started out with the best of intentions some what like Communism, a good idea at the time but oh how wrong its all gone. Answer are Bush, Blair and Howard Christian, they claim they are, show me they are not. You are (all) judged by your (collective) actions, not as it is written, and you fail.
This is not old stuff, it didn't all happen in BC its still going on in 2010, nothing has changed. You(Christians in general) are a bit like the murderer who's defense is "Mum told me to be a good boy." So what.

Runner... the 'values' you list are not restricted to Christians, although only a Christian would bother to add the word 'sacrificial' to an average human act of decency.

As for this line, "The devil himself knows Christ was raised from the dead", leaving aside the non-existence of the Devil, Jesus was the son of god.... so hardly human. God knows all, including the 'death' of Jesus at the hands of the people that God required to do his bidding... does Jesus, who is God, really get to either 'live' or 'die'?

Hardly...God is simply God, and well beyond the human experience or comprehension, so it's a bit of a wild claim to make that he 'died' for any sins, and it most certainly was not a 'sacrifice', since it was predetermined, planned, and known about by its author, God-Jesus.

Foxy... an interesting account of Vinnies... and?

Where is their work to end the economic system that creates extremes of wealth and poverty?

They like things just the way they are, it gives them a sense of 'sacrificial goodness' in their daily lives, along with the Salvos.

I am not sure that Jesus said 'Go build a soup kitchen'... he more likely said 'stop ripping people off and share your wealth' closely followed by 'and stop supporting a corrupt economic system and hiding behind its injustices to make yourselves look good'.

Destroying the current economic system would be a real 'sacrifice', and I do not see too many 'Christians' embarking on that, lest it disrupts their cushy lives.

Foxy I do agree with TBC here regarding St Vinnies.

Churches do indeed (along with many secular charities) provide much needed assistance to poor, impoverished people. However, while the Church's coffers remain full to overflowing and nothing done to progress humanity to a more equitable economic system, Christianity has nothing whatsoever to brag about.

Runner

>>> Sacrificial giving and preferring others to oneself are also hallmarks of individuals and communities that have embraced the gospel message <<<

And you are going to start practising what you preach when exactly?

Severin

'Sacrificial giving and preferring others to oneself are also hallmarks of individuals and communities that have embraced the gospel message <<<

And you are going to start practising what you preach when exactly?

By God's grace I have and will continue to do my best.

Severin... Runner sacrifices his soul every time he posts.

Isn't that enough?

Paul1405 asks

'Answer are Bush, Blair and Howard Christian'

Only they could answer that but your bitterness and twisted views show you have little clue as to what or who are Christian is.

Runner

And you will turn the other cheek exactly when?

And love your neighbour?

I won't hold my breath.

Interesting example of Boaz revisionism.

>>So..for example when I point to a portion of a holy book which requires or exemplifies behavior which is quite radical ..such as 'beat your disobedient wife' he sees the mention of such things as 'spreading fear,hate and loathing'<<

Once again, you manage to tell only half the story.

I have been entirely consistent on this point, throughout our posting history.

And once more, my position is this.

If you are prepared to vilify someone else's religion on the basis of selected quotations from their holy book, then you must accept that your own holy book contains much the same by way of dubious, anachronistic instructions.

Instead, your position is invariably that your book should be seen as allegory, or metaphor, or simply "colourful language", while others' books should be taken literally, word for word.

In taking this stance, you surely cannot fail to see how you appear to be promoting fear hate and loathing.

Which is also, as you may start to realize one day, what is behind my dissent from comparative religion.

>>Pericles has said "For the gazillionth time...I am not interested in comparative religion" which is his response to requests like "why don't you actually look......at the material provided...<<

Using one fantasy as a weapon against another's fantasy is about as productive as arguing whether a chalet in Rivendell represents a better real estate investment than one on Pandora.

Comparative religion is, to me, merely an exercise in comparative fiction. Since it has no basis in reality, anything can be - and clearly is - argued from its contents.

Dear Severin,

Firstly allow me to Thank You for your
kind words. (Blush).

Now, back to the topic.

It is so easy to caricature Catholicism as a
self-interested monolith divorced from the
wider community and out of touch with the
experiences of people. Many outsiders think the
church is one entity controlled from Rome with
the pope at its apex, the bishops as local
managers and all its activities hierarchically
controlled.

This is where Vinnies provides a contrasting
perspective. It is a genuinely lay-run
organisation where clerical influence is almost
non-existent. It is often forgotten that Catholicism
is not a centralised corporation, but a complex
interlocking constellation of different,
semi-independent entities: lay organisations,
religious orders, dioceses, parishes, schools,
hospitals, and other ministries, all with their own
legal status, independent finances and administration.

Certainly since the mid 19th century Catholicism
has become more over centralised than ever before in its
history, nevertheless many parts of the church are
still independent. And Vinnies is one such part,
which is why I chose it for this thread. To me it
represents the best of Catholicism in action. The
Christian call to service that gives its 'raison
d'etre.'

And assisting 1.8 million marginalised people annually
in Australia is what I regard as a positive contribution.

Dear Al,

Sidney Myer (Simcha Baevski), was a Belarusian Jew, not
a Christian. If you scroll down to "External Links,"
on the website that you gave in your opening post.
Under "Myer Family Office Site" click onto the
"Australian Jews" and the letter "M" under Myer, you'll
find Sidney Myer listed as a Jew. Also if you scroll
down to "Category," under "Belarusian Jews," again under
the letter "M" you'll find Sidney Myer listed there as well.

Also, if you happen to be driving past the Box Hill
public Cemetery in Melbourne, drop in and visit Sidney
Myer's gravesite and check the inscription on his
sepulchre

Aha... Miss Marple, you've done it again!

Dear Foxy

To be honest, I think you would the lovely person you are whether you had been born into any culture. I was using your good nature to contrast with that displayed by AGIR and Runner. Proving religion has little to do with decent behaviour, empathy or compassion.

Back on Topic

I was not disputing that St Vincents perform exemplary work, however much of this would be unnecessary in a more democratic less market rules economy. I also posit that charitable works existed before the advent of Christianity and continues alongside it today.

I do recall the parable of the Good Samaritan - the entire point being that his aid was from a person who was not a Christian.

Dear Severin,

You're right about the "Parable of the Good
Samaritan," he was not a Christian.
I prefer to think of it as the "Parable of
the Good Muslim!" (smile).

Dear The Blue Cross,

I prefer Sherlock Holmes.

You can be Watson, if you like.

Dear foxy :) aka "miss Marple"
But Miss Marple.. you might need the assistance of Mssur Poirot to dig a bittttt deeper :)

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/relig/ark/stories/s1575024.htm

Rachael Kohn: Yes, Sidney and Merlyn travelled a lot, and particularly to California. Did he Actually convert to Christianity?

Stella Barber: Yes he did. He was baptised. He struck up a friendship in San Francisco with the Reverend Brewster Adams who was a charismatic community-minded, ethical, very well thought of man in the community, but a Baptist, and Sidney did convert, and was baptised into the Christian faith, and soon married Merlyn.

and.

http://www.airborne.org/archive/2004/sidney_myer.htm

I studied in "Neil House" one of the facilities at Melbourne Bible Insitute and I have a fairly close connection to the traditions.
Lee Neil was one of Myers very close friends and a manager of the Store Sidney bought when he first started.

It's not what is on a persons gravestone which counts..it is what is in their heart.

More Myer philanthropy

//Then in 1929 when the Depression was really starting to increase in severity, he gave 8,000-pounds to the Frankston Wing of the Royal Children’s Hospital to rebuild that facility. He really believed in children’s welfare. Then in 1930, he inaugurated Made in Australia Week, and really promoted the idea to buy Australian goods, to enhance the economy.//

But thanks anyway dear Foxy for trying to contribute :) oh wait.. all you did was find fault..which is quite legitimate..if it's the truth :)
I'd never call 'you' a TROLL ...now would I :)

AGIR

After all these years under a variety of aliases, when are you going to practise what you preach?

You and Runner - not exactly leading by example are you? Hinting that Foxy is a troll - wash your mouth, hypocrite.

AGIR & Runner no positive contributions from either for Australia or Australians.

AGIR,

I was baptized a Catholic and educated at Australian Catholic Schools in the 1960's and 70's, yes lucky me! My point is I was tough that people like your mate Sid would never enter the Kingdom of Heaven as they were not Catholic. As to he/she who referred to me as twisted, not you AGIR, obviously didn't attend a Catholic School when I did, then they would have seen twisted..... Christians

Dear Al,

You said to me, "All you did was find
fault..."

And this after my two positive contributions
to your thread. Well, as I've told you in other
posts, you do tend to view things through a
very narrow lens. (smile).

However, I need to correct you here. I was not
"finding fault," merely information that was
listed on the website that you gave in your
opening post by the Myer family. That's
what librarians do. They provide information.
And Sidney Myer is listed both as a Belarusian
and an Australian Jew. Do you view that as
derogatory and finding fault?

Also he's listed as an Australian Jew on the
following website:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Jews

By the way, Jewishness is genrally considered
an ethnic identity as well as a religious one,
(just for your information).

As for your calling me a troll?

You would be entitled to do that if I were
to suddenly start repeating the same phrases
about a certain religion
with malicious intent, on threads throughout
this Forum - until then - you'll simply
have to continue in your own inimitable style
of posting. (smile).

I am, as always, deeply indebted to you Boaz, for introducing me to such a fascinating bunch of folk, flaunting their "Christianity" in all its glory and splendour.

>>"Stella Barber: Yes he did. He was baptised. He struck up a friendship in San Francisco with the Reverend Brewster Adams who was a charismatic community-minded, ethical, very well thought of man in the community"<<

Reverend Brewster Adams?

Surely not.

A man famous for two events. Or perhaps, famous for one, infamous for the other.

http://www.robertwernick.com/articles/reno.shtml

"In 1913 the united forces of the Men's Civic Association, the Reno Mothers' Club, the State Anti-Cigaret League, the Anti-High-Heel League and many others under the leadership of the Reverend Brewster Adams made a pilgrimage to Carson City, the state capital, and bullied the state legislature into extending the residence requirement to twelve months. Governor Oddie, honored as the only Nevada politician of his day who left office poorer than when he had entered it, signed the bill happily: '...It is impossible for the majority to realize the harm and ridicule the divorce industry has brought to this state. Outsiders forget everything else.'"

That was Adams, man of principle.

Then there was this one.

"...within two years, a new law... reinstated the old six-month limit, and business returned to normal. The reverend Mr. Adams would later become famous as the Desert Parson, revered for the speed and efficiency and beatific smile with which he would marry divorcees fresh out of the courtroom or out-of-staters dissatisfied with their dilatory local churches."

Classic.

Did someone mention my name?
Just a little observation - I find that the sentiments usually expressed by Madame Foxy to be the most consistently sensible and compassionate among any expressed on this forum - Poirot listens intently to information and viewpoints that are delivered in measured tones - perhaps some here should take note, as it's certainly a better method to get your point across.

Dear Poirot :) thanx for your helpful advice... I guess some of us..like me.. are not so measured.. it's a weakness.. in fact it is a lack of faith in my fellow man.. because I don't think many really enjoy getting deep into tight paragraphs for 'hidden' or nuanced points.

Yes..I am a hammer :) and to me, most things are nails.. but I'll make you a deal.. let's try your method in an excercise in 'measured' tones :)

Are you up for it?

Please read something from an online book (if you don't mind) and see what you make of it.

http://www.quranenglish.com/tafheem_quran/065.htm

Please scoll down in 'measured steps' :) to the section which has blue highlighting and the numbers 65:4.

Then..scroll down to the paragraph indicated by *13 and have a read.
Please let me know, what this man is speaking about? Don't hold back..what is he actually saying the verse means ? (for today)
You can find the exact point beginning from the 10th line in *13
to the end of the paragraph.

There :) I followed your advice.. I have not begun with any conclusion.....or assertion.. just opened a book...

PERICLES.. ur on the wrong thread you evil troll...:) that was 'negative' contributions and it was not Australian but American.

But discipline aside.. you are quite on the mark with your cut and paste...seems like this person was a bit rabid to say the least.
No argument from me on your information.. just the location of it.. "wrong thread"...why not open a thread titled "Negative contributions of Australian Christians" I'm sure many here would love that...right?
I certainly won't object.

I note you did not dispute the factuality of Myers conversion. Good.. but you did try to use irrelevant 'bluster' to dampen his noble impact and story. No problem there either.. discussions tend to become a bit derailed by the passionate.

Sorry Al - I find it difficult to join you in debate (although I did take the time to read the passage). I don't believe that I can persuade myself to believe in your religion or their religion...I have tried in days gone by, you see, to believe. I thought it would be an interesting feeling to have that sort of belief or faith - but my "little grey cells" simply will not condone the notion.
Yet, I see much before me that is good in the world (amongst all the bad). I do not need a religion to tell me what is already in my power to deduce.

Dear Al,

Most people don't have missionary complexes
or enjoy being preached at, or having
selective bits from religious texts
quoted to them either.

One's religion/or lack of,
to most people, is a private matter.
And it's extremely arrogant of
anyone to think that others need/want
converting.

Polycarp,

You should stick to that nick given it still fits your mind set
poly= multi
Carp = goes on and on and (yawn) on.

For the rest of the world

I've yet to see any plausible analysis that demonstrates that Christians are any better than an other major religion as people. Historically they are up there with the most blood thirsty and disrespecting of others.

All religions have good ones and Bad ones.

My issue is with 'factually dubious' proselytising (carping).
I'm always wary of people that constantly push self referential rote dogma as the one and only truth.
I wonder who are they trying to convince? Others? why? Are they so insecure/unsure that they need the confirmation/approval of others ? seeking identity/ relevance in terms of a group?
It seems to me that using one's religion as a personal identifier, rather misses the point of religion. Religion is about one's *personal* belief in God(s) etc. In truth if you're a bad person then you would be a bad Christian, Muslim, Rotarian etc. i.e. My sister in law is a narrow minded old before her age pain. Her being Christian and a Nun changes nothing she is still the same. Oh, except now instead of her neighbours being a problem now it's the old ladies of her church.

Rote Dogma begins where reason ceases. It is usually a substitute to the effort of thinking.

NB I have no problem with religion being what it's supposed to be PERSONAL

Dear Foxy..did I 'quote' any religious verse at anyone ?

POIROT.. you are astounding.. the simple fact that you read it is enough mate. I didn't plan to debate you.. I'm just hoping you can see what is actually there...and possibly understand why someone could be VERY concerned that such interpretations are bandied around today..FOR today.. (The commentary is quite recent historically...he began writing that in 1942)

Are you brave enough to risk the wrath of 'the gang' by actually spelling out in about 2 or 3 words what Maududi was declaring ?
C'mon..live dangerously just for once :)
I'll make no further comment on it after that (in this thread)

Exammy

You ask
//I wonder who are they trying to convince? Others? why? Are they so insecure/unsure that they need the confirmation/approval of others ?//

No..it's not an issue like that...it's plain simple obedience to our Lord "Go..into all the world.. make disciples of all nations"

Every reaction you see in response to any actual presentation of the Gospel here.. direct or indirect has been expressed since (and at that time also, see the book of Acts) the New Testament..and it will continue to be so.

But this thread is here for the sake of balance. Did you criticize Foxy for her "Muslims" thread ? I hope you are consistent there.

If you're weary of my speeches :) just click on 'ignore'.
blessings to you.

Dear Al,

Did you quote any religious verse?

Look at your posting history.

cont'd...

And referring posters to websites
that contain biblical refernces
also counts, old chum!

Dear Al,

Thank you for the compliment (I believe I am astounding).
I read your link because you asked me so politely - in measured tones.
And, no, I prefer not to live dangerously - it is bad for my digestion.
The world will always abound with beliefs and tenets that one or another of us find unacceptable. Our individual reactions usually depend on how threatened we feel

Paul,

It's a pity your Catholic schools taught that non-Catholics couldn't be saved, especially as, in 1964, the Pope released Lumen Gentium - a document that suggested that there were paths to salvation outside the Church. What you experienced was some sort of selective Catholicism: teach 'em what we want and ignore the rest. Sadly, many Catholic schools still do that. Luckily, many don't.

Wiki: >>During the eighteenth, nineteenth and twentieth centuries, Australia was a sectarian society divided between Catholics — predominantly but not exclusively of Irish background — on the one hand and Protestants of British heritage on the other.<<

Just a reminder that we Aussies have a long history of taking sides that divide society. When I was a kid I can remember my father berating the tv when Bob Santamaria had his weekly broadcast. Bob was a staunch Catholic and had strong socialist leanings. My father was Protestant and hated socialists. When my father was growing up and through most of his life he used the term Catholic like a Nazi uses the term Jew..."he's catholic as well" kinda thing. Depending on your Christian doctrine you would be advantaged or disadvanted, it was real and affected people at a subsistence level for all of our nations existence. We were more intolerant of other Christian denominations than we were of the Mohammadans, who we simply dismissed as heathens.

The Christian contribution to Australia’s migration policy is to let Muslims in to set up their communities in peace and build their places of worship with the freedom to practice their own cultural legacy........That is the greatest gift the Christians could give to the Muslims........because we know there would be a one in a zillion chance of it happening in a Muslim country.

Interesting post, sonofgloin. I'm too young to remember such things, but my teachers at school used to tell me of a fierce rivalry - or at least a simmering suspicion - between Catholic and Protestant shoppers in Fortitude Valley in Brisbane. The Catholics went to TC Beirne's, while the Protestants went to McWhirter's. Seems silly and trivial, but it's the way we were. And you're right - I'm sure neither would have minded half as much if their business went the way of a Muslim or a 'Chinaman' - as long as those 'nasty Protestants' (or Micks) got their money.

Otokonoko

The Irish Catholic doctrine of the 20th Century as practiced in Australia, and remember Catholicism in Australia has been dominated by Irishism from the very beginning is based on fear, intolerance and down right terror. If there was such a place as Hell, and we know there is not, it would be populated by Popes, Cardinals, Bishops, Priests, Brothers Nuns etc. One thing that I am thankful about from my Catholic education is I see Christianity for what it is, Rubbish. Fortunately I was never sexually abused, by Church scum, but was certainly physically abused (another thing the Churches should admit to).
A few years ago I had the 'pleasure' of attending a school reunion, and who should show up, an old brother of mine, about 90, frail, weak, hopefully dieing in pain and in a wheel chair, he was a fetted as an honored guest, until I had the 'pleasure' of being introduced to him "Paul you remember Brother?, "Oh yes I remember Brother! Still sexually abusing 13 year old boys.... Brother?" It went down like a lead balloon, I was asked to leave by a senior member of the Catholic Clergy, he was not the least bit interested in Brothers past, must protect the good name of the Church (sick).

That's Christianity 20th Century style.

Dear POIROT.... fraidy cat ? :) Let me ask in one more 'measured' way.... if you can see in that passage I cited, reasonable grounds for concern "if" such social values were practiced or promoted in Australia?

Here is one thing which lifts the lid on the kind of thing referred to in that passage.... from a Western cult perspective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69S2fI_GAzo&feature=related

I staggers my mind to think that when we criticize similar things in a particular non Christian faith, all I get from a small group of very strange people is "you are stirring up fear, hate and loathing"... they often add a couple more colorful adjectives to boot.

I cannot for the life of me understand how exposure and criticism of particular ideas..such as manifest in that video above, can be seen to be 'inciting fear hate and loathing' other than the justifiable hatred of child sexual exploitation.

I need your continued restraining wisdom.. I accomodate your attitude much better than the 'fear and loathing' mob :)

Your observation on the threat/feel level is quite true... but there is another dimension. The attempts at structural change which benefit an oppressive ideology need to be countered also in my view.

SOG.. very perceptive .//because we know there would be a one in a zillion chance of it happening in a Muslim country.//

Perhaps this striking observation is also a wakeup call to Aussies to work together so that AU never 'becomes' such a country ?

FOXINESS.... I'm trying to avoid such blatant 'verse quoting' unless it suits the context... in this one.. it kinda does :)

"Blessed are the peacemakers" *handshake* ? :)

I don't think you would like your mum to say to you at 50 "Foxy.. when youuuuu were 12..you did such and such" - do for others.....

Paul good on you for not letting important words be unsaid. That St Patrick had a lot to answer for regards the Irish.

(Poirot I just have to say I love your witty posts and can see David Suchet as the indomitable man himself in your comments although I do sense some "unresolved indigo in your aura"). ;)

Dear Al,
You flatter me.
I can understand that you are bewildered because you cannot fathom the reasons for the criticism that you attract.
You are a passionate soul about this and other issues connected to the Muslim faith.
Perhaps you should change tack and spend a little more time extolling the virtues of your own faith, and a little less time pointing out the deficiencies of the other.

Bonjour Pelican,
(It is difficult in this thread not to present myself in character - a bit of fun)
David Suchet was born to play that role - did you know that Agatha Christie's daughter actually suggested him for the role?
I have resolved to set about resolving my unresolved indigo - will get back to you on that one.

Inspector Poirot... au contraire.. I absolutely do see why I attract criticism.
I am difficult to endure at times. (I get sick of me too :)

Of course I could extol the values of my own faith :) and have often done so here..and attracted similar criticism. If I'm not being hung for 'Islamophobia' I'm being stoned for 'forcing your views on others' :)

So...no bewilderment on that issue.. what definitely does bewilder me though is where people like Bishop Pericles, who is one of my most vehement critics.. will not so much as lift a keystroke to examine the same evidence you already have. His mini me CJ just tacks on some chirping and/or muttering at the end of the Bishops attack :)

If you saw (and had already lived) dangers in certain ideas gaining prominance and acceptance.. such as illustrated by that video (COG).. where they speak the same language as we evangelicals.. some of their preaching would be the envy of some of us I'm sure.. they grew... spread all over the world.. but then the truth came out...they were exploiting and abusing children and had such behavior as a 'doctrine'.

It's one thing for Catholic priests to be opportunistic..doing it on the sly.. it's entirely another to actually have such behavior codified and promoted within your organization.

Did you not notice that girl in that vid becoming almost hysterical when she realized that their 'in house' information about adult child sex was in the hands of the media ?

"you people think sex is bad.. you all hate us.. now your going to.. etc"
That from a young child for goodness sake...

The point of having said all that.. is that early exposure is much better than belated repair of lives.. no ?

Forums such as this..enable wide contact and dissemination of views and criticism...of such things. (welcome to 'me' :)

Paul1405
If you have evidence of your paedophile claim, a school reunion was not the appropiate place to state it. Have you made a statement to the Police? If not, you are a coward and the removal of yourself was very appropiate. Until you have taken it to the police; your post here is rather a cowards court! You reveal yourself as a fraud.

["Paul you remember Brother?, "Oh yes I remember Brother! Still sexually abusing 13 year old boys.... Brother?" It went down like a lead balloon, I was asked to leave by a senior member of the Catholic Clergy, he was not the least bit interested in Brothers past, must protect the good name of the Church (sick).]

That's Christianity 20th Century style.Posted by Paul1405,

Dear Paul,

No one is denying that sexual abuse of children is
horrendous and intolerable and that the failure of
the church to deal with it effectively has done
immeasurable damage to victims. The cover-ups,
the protection of abusive clergy and the refusal
to admit egregious mistakes are unjustifiable.

However, it is a shame that you have lost your
faith as a result. There are many good priests
within the church and personally I am optimistic
that the Church will confront both the difficulties
and the opportunities that it now faces.
It has to, or it will wither and die.

Philo / Foxie

These crimes took place around 1965/66 6th class of school, I had good knowledge of what was going on, he was my class teacher and boys talk, left me alone, picked on the meek, blessed are the meek. At the time action was taken by the Brothers following a parent complaint, un-officially the Brother was moved to another school. The official explanation was "Brother has been over working and has gone for a rest." He never returned to our school. I never knew his real name, still don't, and never saw him again until 1996. Police, what for get some old bloke who's on deaths door, charged with pedophilia if your lucky, all I can hope is my little outburst may have hastened his death.

PAUL1405
you don't need to worry about the police getting that 'brother'....

consider this.

a) Jesus condemned child abuse.(vehemently)
b) Note this verse below:

27What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matt 10:27ff)

That 'brother' will meet the one who said those words.

In this life.. if there was time... yes...he should have been punished, but perhaps the best punishment for him at this age is just to read those verses to him. It will make his impending physical demise all the more 'joyful'.....

Al,

In saying that you point out another Christian Problem, the notion that there is really no need to worry about the wrongs done in this life as all will be well when you get to the other side. The only problem with that is you have to believe there is an other side, life after death stuff, heaven and hell, and that the Good God is going to fix everything up, assuming without evidence there is a God, and that God is going to do the fix.
If one is going to believe in God, what's wrong with believing in say the Roman Gods what evidence is there to show they, Romans, are wrong and Christians are right with God(s)

Dear Paul,

I'm so sorry for your bad experience with
that particular brother.

My husband went to Christian Brothers schools.
And he tells of things he heard from other
boys concerning a certain brother.

I remember Sister Mary Virgilius - at my
preparatory school, who was a holy terror
with the cane. My father ended up taking
out of that school.

On the other hand, I grew up with a parish
priest, Father Kennedy, who was the gentlest
soul, and a close family friend. He was someone
whom we all loved dearly. He joined my husband
and I in matrimony. It meant a great deal to me
to have him do that.

However, in my secular - all girls high school, I
encountered a Mathematics teacher who took great
delight in punching me with full force with her
fist into my back every time she walked past
my desk. She also called me "unpronounceable,"
instead of by name in front of the entire class.
And of course it made the other girls laugh
(at my expense). To this day I have a mental
problem when it comes to Maths. The woman convinced
me that I was an idiot. Despite the fact that I
have never had a problem with doing accounts or
handling money since leaving school.

What I'm trying to point out, I guess, is,
bad people do bad things - they don't necessarily
have to be religious to do them. Of course regarding
child sexual abuse - that's something that the Church
cannot and should not try to hide or ignore or
remain inactive. Action needs to be swift and
appropriate. Transferring people to do more of the
same to other parishes is not the answer.

I hope that you will find peace of mind someday soon.

Not at all Paul.. I know that in this life the crime means the time, but in the brothers case he doesn't have much life left..

I have no illusions about his destiny... but also think about this.
What hell must it be on this world to have done what he did..and have to live with it "unto death".....

I can't imagine he got up each morning and looked in the mirror and declared "You wonderful chap"

The thing you express re Christianity is not really a problem.. unless people make it one. The idea that "oh..great..we are savvvvved now.. we can just keep on sinning" is actually evidence of NOT being saved or born again. See Romans 6 (the chapter)

cheers mate.

The Blue Cross (TBC)claims:
"But the truth is that people like Vinnie's have no desire to see the back of 'poor folk' because that would leave them with nothing to do, and no excuse for their tax-free status and dominant and privileged position in society".

The above is a false claim TBC, based upon my direct knowledge and experience regarding people who have worked for St Vincent De Paul societies, one of whom, was a mother of a girlfriend of mine, dedicated her whole life, working and giving to those who were underpriviledged at various times in their lives. I witnessed the voluntary work she performed, sacrificing her life to assist thousands of others.

TBC:
"If any of these so-called Christians were the least bit interested in ending poverty, then they'd start to educate 'the poor folk' into understanding why they were poor, and others were grossly and unseemingly rich, including all the so-called Christian churches.
But they do not want that, because power and poverty are in balance, for them".

Please save your "anti-religious bias" and stick to facts. Obviously you have learned zilch from other people on OLO during your last generalised attacks on innocent Christians and innocent people attending Christian Churches TBC. Your 'young soul' has to repeat the whole process over again most sadly, until you one day, finally, 'get it'!! BTW: a 'young soul' as opposed to a wise 'old soul' is not to be compared with age TBC. Some people are just born broad-minded, compassionate, self-less, more trusting of others,and see the genuine goodness in what 'giving St Vinnies staff' do for people, without being suspicious of charity workers [unpaid] having an ulterior selfish motive. Q: Look deeply to discover the reasons why you view genuine good hearted people, and more importantly, people in genuine need at some point, the way you have described.

It is sad that at this present time in your life, that your soul is exhibiting behaviour or opinions demonstrative of distrust, bitterness, cynicism, and a narrow view of genuine good hearted people, assisting others (less??) fortunate than yourself.

Severin:

"Churches do indeed (along with many secular charities) provide much needed assistance to poor, impoverished people. However, while the Church's coffers remain full to overflowing and nothing done to progress humanity to a more equitable economic system, Christianity has nothing whatsoever to brag about".

You have not learned much from your last round of generalising about Christians either Severin. Repeating the process. How about a question to you in addition to TBC. No, hang on, more of a challenge I put to you both.

When you next have a weekend free, I will drive you to a couple of country towns [one now a city], and show you all of the buildings that 'some' Christian Churches, of different denominations have paid for, built/erected, and provided funding for the aged, mentally and physically disabled. I came across the Co-Ordinator of one project, completed a couple of years ago, at a funeral last year who described the 'dwellings/homes' he and the Church had completely funded. This town is now a city and growing, accommodating hundreds of people who belong to hundreds of families across Australia.

Research Father O'Reilly btw and read up on the fantastic work and the excellent reputation that Priest has, and maybe TBC and yourself may not generalise as much about people of christian faith.

Al/Foxy,

I have no problem with Christianly, the teachings of Christ, the ten commandments etc, no reasonable person would. What I really have a problem with are the organizations which claim to be Christian and claim to represent and speak for Christians, the Catholic Church for one, which in the year dot hijacked Christianity and turned it into something else with the charade of Pius Christianity, all to suit themselves. Yes St Vinnies and others within the Church do good work, cannot deny that, but on balance has organized Christian religions been a positive or a negative for mankind? I think the latter wins in a landslide. Maybe Christ was too demanding, expected to much from his fellow man, we just couldn't do it his way. It is such a pitty that's how things turned out, the Church could have been a powerful force for good within the world, but unfortunately its all been lost opportunity.

"we are unique"

I have, many times, acknowledged that religions do provide charitable works. Unfortunately along with those vital services, comes the proselytising, the tax-breaks (church based industries do not pay tax), the infiltration into secular schools of chaplains and distortion of curriculum, such as science, political incursion (Abbott, Fielding, Rudd).

And finally, the expectation that because something is claimed as religion it is deserving of a level of respect that I am unable to give. I can tolerate that people believe in a god (or gods) and would have no reason to be here arguing with you if not for the above mentioned. Religion provides a wonderful cover for those who crave power, be it paedophile priests or politicians who would control women's reproduction.

To those that keep pointing out the good works of Syd, Fr Chris, yes a truly good man, St Vinnies, seems nothing wrong with their work. That is all well and good how does those individual efforts negate the sins of Christianity. Its all a bit like me saying Adolph Hitler really had true affection for his dog, and he did, so based on that the World should forgive all his other sins as he showed a 'spark of goodness', the argument is nonsensical. And Syd, Fr.Chris, St Vinnies etc, they are indeed a 'spark of goodness'.