I'm notorious, apparently :P

TBC, you certainly seem to have a very dim view of humanity. Every time I bump into one of your posts you are mouthing off about somebody: teachers, sportsmen, charities, immigrants . . . I can't imagine living a life surrounded by people I loathe so much!

But seriously - if you really believe that tens of thousands of volunteers give up their time and money to help the homeless just to give themselves something to do, I'd say you need a reality check. Could it be that Vinnies do what they do because they are trying to help the world? At the end of the day, they are not ending poverty. But they are feeding the hungry and housing the homeless while others - including other arms of the Catholic Church, among many others - look at ways of solving the bigger problem. As Foxy said, and as I truly believe, this is Catholicism at its best. It isn't its exclusive best - plenty of other organisations do the same - but it is a collective of Catholics living out the scriptures they hold dearest. It seems that they're damned if they do, and damned if they don't: if they weren't working for these charities, you'd be calling them hypocrites.

The Blue Cross

you ask/state
'So, all you describe is what so-called Christians might believe. Surely, if all those who claim to be 'Christian' generally believe what you outline, then they are Christian?
But what about all those who say they are 'Christian', yet do horrible things, and are denounced as being 'not real Christians' by people who insist that they have the right to determine who is and who is not a 'real Christian'?'

At the end of the day Christ Himself will sort the wheat from the weeds or genuine from the fake. The devil himself knows Christ was raised from the dead and that his future along with his followers is the pit of fire. A person's actions will show if they have really submitted to the resurrected Christ as Lord. A genuine follower of Christ knows that it is only Christ's righteousness that will save him/her because they have none of their own.

'And, if that is all that makes a person a Christian, then what about 'Christian values' such as Julie Bishop says she can recognise in others (but not in herself as I read her life)?
List the 'Christian values' that no one else has.... all ears still.'

I am not sure what Christian values that Julie Bishop refers to. However turning the other cheek and loving ones enemies is certainly unique values taught by Christ. Sacrificial giving and preferring others to oneself are also hallmarks of individuals and communities that have embraced the gospel message

I think I'll summarise my response to this post by saying that religions, Christian and otherwise, have prompted some people to do wonderful things for our country. Certainly there are many religious people who contribute nothing, and certainly there are many non-religious people who do wonderful things. At the end of the day, religions may sit alongside other philosophies that, when followed in the proper spirit, bring much goodness to the world.

That said, there are many other - purely secular - philosophies that achieve the same purpose, and produce adherents who may have the appearance of Christians, Muslims, Buddhists et al in their piety and general decency. A wonderful little book, The Consolations of Philosophy by Alain de Botton (available as a Popular Penguin for the bargain price of $9.95 or thereabouts) opened my eyes to this. It showed me that there are many outlooks on life that bring about inner peace and a desire to do good in the world. They may also help people to be at peace with those who despise them (love their enemies), and to forsake anger (turn the other cheek). I think that many people follow these philosophies without realising - reading through them, many resonated with me and did little more than bring to the front of my mind ideas that had long resided in the back.

So yeah - Christians, Muslims and people from all religious persuasions have the capacity to do good, and for many of them religion is the catalyst that turns the potential energy into something more kinetic. And for many others, good deeds are brought about by different catalysts or, in some cases, by no catalyst at all.

On one side of the equation you have the old ladies down at St Vinnies, sorting old rags for the poor and needy, doing their good Christian act in the name of God. On the other side of the equation you have the likes of George Bush, Tony Blair, John Howard etc and all those who support them killing millions of innocent men, women and children, doing their good Christian act in the name of God. I don't hear your Pope or any other Pious Preachers jumping up and down and condemning those that murder in the name of God, after all God did command "You shall not kill" or do you Christians have another interpretation on that one. Its a fact that so many who claim to be Christian are the first to demand the murder of the innocent in the name of God, just take a look at those in the Bible Belt of the USA.
Just on Sydney Myer, after all it is his thread, if on the 5th September 1934 old Sid got to the Pearly Gates and instead of St Peter waiting for him there was Moses "Sorry Sid! Jews only!" would have been an all round s#it day for Syd.

PAUL1405 :) "The only true religion is Amway so all you members of Nutrimetics can burn in hell!"

Now that is 'extreme' funny.

AJ PHILLIPS
There is quite a long context to Pericles antics. It involves much back and forth between his eminent self and my bedraggled self. Pericles has said "For the gazillionth time...I am not interested in comparative religion" which is his response to requests like "why don't you actually look......at the material provided to see if what we say has foundation"..that kind of thing. The 'material' suggested was a very clear Islamic opinion about a certain matter.

One thing which might explain such errant behavior is a very stubborn clinging to unbelief. But there's more. A mind without faith, cannot understand how 'holy documents' impact or effect a person 'of' faith. So..for example when I point to a portion of a holy book which requires or exemplifies behavior which is quite radical ..such as 'beat your disobedient wife' he sees the mention of such things as 'spreading fear,hate and loathing' rather than responsible public interest journalsim such as the Herald Article below. The issue at stake, (in our previous discussion)that his comments relate to are found here..if you are interested to find out.

http://www.quranenglish.com/tafheem_quran/065.htm
scroll to the place where it says "65:4" read the verse, then scroll to *13 and read on. See if there is anything you find problematic from the 10th line of *13 to the end of the paragraph.

Personally..I would consider the exposure of such teaching to be of great benefit to Australia... it seems Pericles is not prepared to even investigate to see if such a view has foundation.

Remember this?.... it also involved the ill treatment of children.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/editorials/rein-in-family-cult/story-e6frfhqo-1225761995036

I suppose the Herald Sun is 'spreading hatred fear and loathing' :)
At least in Pericles strange world it does.