Dear David F.,

Thank You for that beautiful tale.

Have you by any chance read the book,
"From Russia With Lunch: A Lithuanian
Odyssey," by David Smiedt.

As the comedian Adam Hills says, the book
is, "A cross between Bill Bryson and
Robin Williams - but in a good way!"

I highly recommend it.

I'll just quote a bit from it:

"Eighty-two years after Moses Dibobis escaped
from the Lithuanian hamlet of Birzai with nothing
but a packed lunch, his grandson David Smiedt
journeys back to the former Soviet enclave
looking for a link to his grandfather that extends
beyond a receding hairline and shared sense of
humour. What he finds there is that premium vodka
is cheaper than water, spa treatments are more than
a little invasive and that Stalin theme parks and
eccentric museums are just the beginning of the
charms of this beguiling nation. By the end of his
journey, David finally has an answer to his
mother-in-law's question: 'Who are your people?'

David Smiedt reveals a land unknown by many.
And as it says on the back cover - "better still,
he eats pigs' ears so you don't have to!"

ALGOREisRICH,<"...and in no case was any substantial sequence (important word)of miracles or signs attributed to them.
No..this is not a 'my religion is better than yours' thing..it's pure fact. (some might say only the reports are)"

I'm sorry Mr Rich, but what 'facts'? Are we talking about the bible here? A 2000 year old book written by several men- most fishermen- who claim to have 'seen' miracles?

Sorry, that is not enough for me.
Your God seems to have slowed down with the miracles in modern day life, since we have scientific tests to disprove all that rubbish!

Apologies if these have already been mentioned:

Gave up the ghost:

And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God. (Mark 15:38-40)

Salt of the earth:

Ye are the salt of the earth... (Matthew 5:12-14)


It's better to give than receive:

I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. (Acts 20:35)

This is my favourite passage because of the message, but also because of the beauty of the wording:

Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

26Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

27Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

28And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

... ..

34Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

(Matthew 6)

Dear Suze,

Where have you been?
I've missed your posts.

Dear Pynch,

Thanks for your brilliant quotes.

One of my favourites is:

"When two people are at one in their inmost hearts
They shatter even the strength of iron or of bronze
And when two people understand each other in their
inmost hearts
Their words are sweet and strong like the fragrance of
orchids."

The I Ching (c. 1000 BC)

The I Ching (The Book of Changes) is one of the oldest
books in the world, dating back to around 1000 BC,
and based on an even older shamanistic oral tradition.
It is an ancient Chinese system of divination.

The central problem with Dawkins idea is that you go backwards if you try to extract the "magic" of much religious literature from the "magic" of its faith. If you reject the picture that's painted , you usually end up with lots of bits that don't fit back together- unless you accept what you've just rejected. The nature of painting!
Paint your own picture? Many have tried, but what author has actually done it in the post modern world?
We need pictures and stories to put us beyond the particular ; to keep both what we know, and what we don't know into perspective.
Also , without a way out of our situation,( lot of modern literature) just talking about the situation is not all that useful for most of us . Look at all the scripts that noone wants to read , even in our own day - real or fantasy ?
Mere words of wisdom are not enough either . Richard Dawkins doing a John Laws.. really? -
Many of the authors of the good books saw the limitations of mere knowledge and would have well understood our revelation about the " sum of the parts " problem in our cultures welded on commitment to mere description. Infact, that revelation meant that many of the old greeks moved on from "the Greek" to incorporate something special about the Hebrew way of thinking.
There was no rejection of logic, but a recognition of its limitations . Logically, to limit your understanding of the universe to the ideas that YOU can string together may be to limit your understanding.
One of the oldest books, Job is a good example of the realistic and unfinished tensions in the stories that make them interesting reading to new generations of readers .Job poses as many questions as it solves . Most of the books do the same - people found Jesus's words and actions off putting.
The words of wisdom "parts" that we may rememeber pack a lot more punch when listed with the lives, actions and interactions in a whole scene .

ALGOREisRICH wrote: ‘"Jesus, Lord of lords and King of kings" crucified for our sins and raised from the dead, according to the scriptures.’

From “Origins of Pagan and Christian Creeds” by Carpenter:

“At the time of the life or recorded appearance of Jesus of Nazareth, and for some centuries before, the Mediterranean and neighboring world had been the scene of a vast number of pagan creeds and rituals. There were Temples without end dedicated to gods like Apollo or Dionysus among the Greeks, Hercules among the Romans, Mithra among the Persians, Adonis and Attis in Syria and Phrygia, Osiris and Isis and Horus in Egypt, Baal and Astarte among the Babylonians and Carthaginians, and so forth.

Societies, large or small, united believers and the devout in the service or ceremonials connected with their respective deities, and in the creeds which they confessed concerning these deities. And an extraordinarily interesting fact, for us, is that notwithstanding great geographical distances and racial differences between the adherents of these various cults, as well as differences in the details of their services, the general outlines of their creeds and ceremonials were--if not identical--so markedly similar as we find them.

I cannot of course go at length into these different cults, but I may say roughly that of all or nearly all the deities above-mentioned it was said and believed that:

(1) They were born on or very near our Christmas Day.

(2) They were born of a Virgin-Mother.

(3) And in a Cave or Underground Chamber.

(4) They led a life of toil for Mankind.

(5) And were called by the names of Light-bringer, Healer, Mediator,
Savior, Deliverer.

(6) They were however vanquished by the Powers of Darkness.

(7) And descended into Hell or the Underworld.

(8) They rose again from the dead, and became the pioneers of mankind to the Heavenly world.

(9) They founded Communions of Saints, and Churches into which disciples were received by Baptism.

(10) And they were commemorated by Eucharistic meals.”

Myths current in the classical world spiced up the story of Jesus. Christianity got an undue market share.