Dear foxy
may I quote your opening post?

//That we can give up belief in God (or not)
while not losing touch with our treasured heritage.
I'd be interested in poster's views on the subject.//

And I expressed my view.

//Quite true Foxy.. quite true.
"we can"..... but should we ?//

I suggest that the danger in treating it just 'as literature' is to in fact undermine the true nature of the Scriptures.

"or not"...that is the 'view' I'm expressing.

By treating the Bible as just literature, an educational authority would be imposing a view of the subject which is blatantly contradictory to the content itself under study.

The point I am making, (just in case you haven't yet tweaked to it)
is that to do so (study as "literature") is in itself an attack on the scriptures.

But from the naturalist/secular world view.. I do appreciate that you/they don't see it that way. But if you recall.. not everyone in society shares that view.. hence my post :)

Stictly on topic... I would just make one assertion. "If it is taught, perhaps it might be wise to include a segment which shows the impact of the spiritual understanding as well" ?

For example, one can find 'proto marxism' in Acts 2.. this connects scripture to a secular world movement of great influence.

"44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need."

The truly diligent teacher would of course point out...that the key words in those verses are

"SELLING.... GAVE" i.e. it was a practical heart response to a spiritual condition... it was not taken as a tax and imposed or forced which is the primary difference to Communism.

Given that 9 out of 10 20 yr olds (that I have interviewed) don't have a clue about what "Communism" is (one managed to say "errr red flags"?) this would be important to point out in terms of our heritage and for this, you could regard the passage purely as a historical report/literature.

foxy you have started an interesting thread.
We must have been putting two alike but different threads together at about the same time.
I see much to like mine too was not to insult believers but it highlights the basic goodness of belief.
And the artistry found in the Bible can not be over looked.
I note however the defenders of that great books subject appear unwilling to debate.

Dear Belly,

My aim with this thread was simply to
discuss our rich English literary
heritage and how much of our idioms,
phrases or cliches come directly
from the Bible. I was hoping that people
would come up with all sorts of examples -
and we could all learn a thing or two
from the experience. I should have stated
at the beginning of this thread what this
discussion was to be about, but I had assumed
that it was self-evident from the title.

I recently came across a book of Readings and
poems for Weddings by Julia Watson. She compiled
the book, because as she says," Weddings require
public voices - speeches and responses - and people
want to have a reading or a poem read to mark their
marriage in a more personal way..."

Many of the readings were from the Bible - this is
part of one of my favourites:

"...When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I
understood as a child, I thought as a child:
but when I became a man, I put away childish
things. For now we see through a glass darkly;
but then face to face. Now I know in part; but
then shall I know even as also I am known.
And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three;
but the greatest of these is love."
(I Corinthians 13 (New King James version, 1982).

Much of our heritage has been shaped through religion. I don't know about a separate subject Foxy, but it does get some coverage in English literature. I remember even in the late 70s at school reading authors like Hardy or DH Lawrence, there were many biblical/religious themes especially in relation to morality or mores of the times.

Dear Pelly,

Thanks for that.

Today the literary-educational pendulum has
stopped swinging. Traditional literature
has been recognised as fit food for the
developing imagination of children and
as a cultural medium. There seems to be
at present a return to the prototype, a
general integrity among retailers, translators,
and publishers, in an attempt to bring back
traditional tales once again. Because it is
being recognised that each child has to grow
and develop, has to seek and explore as did the
generations before them. In so doing these
stories which have endure from when the world
was young can provide comfort, guidance and a
means of intuitive understanding. For they have
endured because they embody ongoing truths of
human experience and are thus universal symbols.

The story of Samson the Israelite is almost a
prototype of the hero tale. Born whilst his
people were in a forty-year thralldom to the
Philistines, his parents has long been childless yet
longed for offspring. When an angel appeared to the
woman a conditional promise was made. "Take no wine
or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean. For you
will conceive and bear a son. No razor is to touch his
head, for the boy shall be God's nazirite from his
mother's womb. It is he who will begin to rescue
Israel from the power of the Philistines." (Judges 13: 2-5
Jerusalem Bible).

The strength of the youthful Samson was such that he
tore a lion apart with his bare hands (almost
mandatory for heroes), and when bound by the
Philistines burst his bonds asunder, snatched up
the jawbone of an ass and slaughtered a thousand
men.

Samson like David and countless heroes of literature
are a source of national pride and inspiration
and for the young especially, not only an heroic
example but a potent source of identification
for their own emerging selfhood. Hence their endurance
in literature, on the stage, and on the screen.

Foxy, I always thought you had a well balanced outlook, but maybe that's because I tend to agree with a lot of what you have to say !

I get tired of the ad hominem attitudes of many of the posters and it is a delight to find some thoughtful opinions.

I think that what Dawkins has to say is very relevant. Not only is it important to study religion and its history to understand the culture from which we develop, but also appreciate the architecture and the artwork established with the money the church had in the past.

In addition to all the common phrases that have been mentioned, it is interesting to note that we all, atheists and believers alike, constantly say "thank God" as an automatic reaction to relief from some past occurrence. The Muslims seem to intersperse "God willing" in most statements, although they probably tend to believe it more than other religions do. We should all be aware of our history and how we developed.