Richard Dawkins in his book, "The God Delusion,"
tell us that, "The King James Bible of 1611 -
the Authorised Version - includes passages of
outstanding literary merit in its own right,
for example the Song of Songs, and the sublime
Ecclesiastes... But the main reason the English
Bible needs to be part of our education is that
it is a major source book for literary culture..."

Dawkins cites that there is overwhelming agreement by
teachers of English Literature that biblical literacy
is essential to full appreciation of their subject.
He points out that "doubtless the equivalent is true
of French, German, Russian, Italian, Spanish and other
great European literatures."

"And for speakers of Arabic and Indian languages, knowledge
of the Qur'an or the Bhagavad Gita is presumably just as
essential for full appreciation of their literary
heritage." Dawkins tells us that you can't for example
appreciate the music of Wagner without knowing your way
around the Norse Gods.

What I found interesting was the list of biblical, or
Bible-inspired, phrases and sentences that occur in
literary or even conversational English, from cliches,
proverbs, to gossip. For example:

"Be fruitful and multiply: Am I my brother's keeper?
As old as Methuselah: The fat of the land: A land flowing
with milk and honey: Let my people go: A man after his own
heart: How are the Mighty fallen? : The wolf shall dwell
with the lamb: To everything there is a season, and a
time for every purpose: No peace for the wicked: Can the
leopard change its spots? ..." And many more.

The point that Dawkins is making is that "we can retain
a sentimental loyalty to the cultural and literary
traditions of, say, Judaism, Anglicanism, or Islam, and
even participate in religious rituals such as marriages
and funerals, without buying into the supernatural beliefs
that historically went along with those traiditons."

That we can give up belief in God (or not)
while not losing touch with our treasured heritage.

I'd be interested in poster's views on the subject.

Most interesting self revelation foxy :)

Your explanation was quite telling about why you tend to 'cocoon' youself from people who argue from the perspective of actual faith rather than, to quote you quoting Dawkins

"we can retain
a sentimental loyalty to the cultural and literary
traditions....
without buying into the supernatural beliefs
that historically went along with those traditions."

Quite true Foxy.. quite true.
"we can"..... but should we ?

Only if we accept the ultimate legitimacy of the secular world view which regards true faith in God and the Miraculous as mythical, unscientific nonsense.

This is the point where the Gospel changes hearts and minds...when the human heart is challenged with the words "Come..follow me/repent and believe in the Gospel".. it must make a descision. 'for'...or 'against'.

There is no fence sitting.. no one foot in each camp...it's either following..or not following. 'Coming...or going'.

When Jesus said "I am the light of the world" or.. to lean a bit towards the secular view "Jesus reported words -I am" etc.
-it's quite possible to keep all that within the secular framework, by deciding that it is just a bunch of words invented by the greedy power hungry Church or some similar scenario.

But the person of true faith actually takes those words to heart, and they form part of his/her relationship with the real person "Jesus, Lord of lords and King of kings" crucified for our sins and raised from the dead, according to the scriptures.

As Paul puts it "I am crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me"

They are 'my thoughts' and are basically in agreement in that we not only can, but should, retain a knowledge of our rich heritage.

You have brilliantly illustrated the power of 'the myth' :)

The words of Jesus Christ are a 10000 times more impressive than a man bound by his own ego.

Dear AG,

Do try to read the titles of threads.
From your post - you're obviously on
the wrong one.

The title of this thread is
"Religious Education As a Part of
Literary Culture." Kindly stick to
the topic. This thread is not about
anyone's religious beliefs, and certainly
not mine.

Here are some more biblical or Bible-inspired
phrases and sentences that occur commonly in
literary or conversational English:

"A Daniel in the lions' den: They have sown the
wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind: Hide your
light under a bushel; Turn the other cheek;
Cast your pearl before swine..."

As Richard Dawkins tells us:

"Every one of these idioms, phrases or cliches
comes directly fro the King James Authorized
Version of the Bible. Surely ignorance of
the Bible is bound to impoverish one's appreciation of
English Literature? And not just solemn and serious
literature. The following rhyme by Lord Justice
Bowen is ingeniously witty:

"The rain it raineth on the just
And also on the unjust fella,
But chiefly on the just, because
The unjust hath the just's umbrella."

Dear runner,

Richard Dawkins is making precisely
that point. For example, did you know
that there are thirteen hundred
biblical references in Shakespeare's
works? I certainly didn't, until I
read Dawkins' book!

P.G. Woodhouse, considered one of
the greatest writers of light comedy
in English has so many allusions to
biblical phrases within his pages.
Again Dawkins tells us that.

And, the fine point of Eliza Dolittle's
fantasy in "My Fair Lady," would escape
anybody ignorant of John The Baptist's
end:

"Thanks a lot,King," says I in a manner well bred,
"But all I want is 'Enry 'Iggins' 'ead."

This may clear things up for you.

Cast your pearl before swine...

Scripture is indeed a great source of culture, but including a subject in the official school-program is a receipe for making children hate it and likely to resent it for the rest of their lives, what a pity!
(you can see this happen for example in Israel, where bible-study is a compulsory subject in years 2-12 and matriculation)

If you truly want young people to rejoice in knowledge, then ideally all formal education should be scrapped. It's unlikely to happen though, because the government is too invested in the education-bug as part of their desire to produce our future "work-force".

Dear foxy
may I quote your opening post?

//That we can give up belief in God (or not)
while not losing touch with our treasured heritage.
I'd be interested in poster's views on the subject.//

And I expressed my view.

//Quite true Foxy.. quite true.
"we can"..... but should we ?//

I suggest that the danger in treating it just 'as literature' is to in fact undermine the true nature of the Scriptures.

"or not"...that is the 'view' I'm expressing.

By treating the Bible as just literature, an educational authority would be imposing a view of the subject which is blatantly contradictory to the content itself under study.

The point I am making, (just in case you haven't yet tweaked to it)
is that to do so (study as "literature") is in itself an attack on the scriptures.

But from the naturalist/secular world view.. I do appreciate that you/they don't see it that way. But if you recall.. not everyone in society shares that view.. hence my post :)

Stictly on topic... I would just make one assertion. "If it is taught, perhaps it might be wise to include a segment which shows the impact of the spiritual understanding as well" ?

For example, one can find 'proto marxism' in Acts 2.. this connects scripture to a secular world movement of great influence.

"44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need."

The truly diligent teacher would of course point out...that the key words in those verses are

"SELLING.... GAVE" i.e. it was a practical heart response to a spiritual condition... it was not taken as a tax and imposed or forced which is the primary difference to Communism.

Given that 9 out of 10 20 yr olds (that I have interviewed) don't have a clue about what "Communism" is (one managed to say "errr red flags"?) this would be important to point out in terms of our heritage and for this, you could regard the passage purely as a historical report/literature.

foxy you have started an interesting thread.
We must have been putting two alike but different threads together at about the same time.
I see much to like mine too was not to insult believers but it highlights the basic goodness of belief.
And the artistry found in the Bible can not be over looked.
I note however the defenders of that great books subject appear unwilling to debate.

Dear Belly,

My aim with this thread was simply to
discuss our rich English literary
heritage and how much of our idioms,
phrases or cliches come directly
from the Bible. I was hoping that people
would come up with all sorts of examples -
and we could all learn a thing or two
from the experience. I should have stated
at the beginning of this thread what this
discussion was to be about, but I had assumed
that it was self-evident from the title.

I recently came across a book of Readings and
poems for Weddings by Julia Watson. She compiled
the book, because as she says," Weddings require
public voices - speeches and responses - and people
want to have a reading or a poem read to mark their
marriage in a more personal way..."

Many of the readings were from the Bible - this is
part of one of my favourites:

"...When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I
understood as a child, I thought as a child:
but when I became a man, I put away childish
things. For now we see through a glass darkly;
but then face to face. Now I know in part; but
then shall I know even as also I am known.
And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three;
but the greatest of these is love."
(I Corinthians 13 (New King James version, 1982).

Much of our heritage has been shaped through religion. I don't know about a separate subject Foxy, but it does get some coverage in English literature. I remember even in the late 70s at school reading authors like Hardy or DH Lawrence, there were many biblical/religious themes especially in relation to morality or mores of the times.

Dear Pelly,

Thanks for that.

Today the literary-educational pendulum has
stopped swinging. Traditional literature
has been recognised as fit food for the
developing imagination of children and
as a cultural medium. There seems to be
at present a return to the prototype, a
general integrity among retailers, translators,
and publishers, in an attempt to bring back
traditional tales once again. Because it is
being recognised that each child has to grow
and develop, has to seek and explore as did the
generations before them. In so doing these
stories which have endure from when the world
was young can provide comfort, guidance and a
means of intuitive understanding. For they have
endured because they embody ongoing truths of
human experience and are thus universal symbols.

The story of Samson the Israelite is almost a
prototype of the hero tale. Born whilst his
people were in a forty-year thralldom to the
Philistines, his parents has long been childless yet
longed for offspring. When an angel appeared to the
woman a conditional promise was made. "Take no wine
or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean. For you
will conceive and bear a son. No razor is to touch his
head, for the boy shall be God's nazirite from his
mother's womb. It is he who will begin to rescue
Israel from the power of the Philistines." (Judges 13: 2-5
Jerusalem Bible).

The strength of the youthful Samson was such that he
tore a lion apart with his bare hands (almost
mandatory for heroes), and when bound by the
Philistines burst his bonds asunder, snatched up
the jawbone of an ass and slaughtered a thousand
men.

Samson like David and countless heroes of literature
are a source of national pride and inspiration
and for the young especially, not only an heroic
example but a potent source of identification
for their own emerging selfhood. Hence their endurance
in literature, on the stage, and on the screen.

Foxy, I always thought you had a well balanced outlook, but maybe that's because I tend to agree with a lot of what you have to say !

I get tired of the ad hominem attitudes of many of the posters and it is a delight to find some thoughtful opinions.

I think that what Dawkins has to say is very relevant. Not only is it important to study religion and its history to understand the culture from which we develop, but also appreciate the architecture and the artwork established with the money the church had in the past.

In addition to all the common phrases that have been mentioned, it is interesting to note that we all, atheists and believers alike, constantly say "thank God" as an automatic reaction to relief from some past occurrence. The Muslims seem to intersperse "God willing" in most statements, although they probably tend to believe it more than other religions do. We should all be aware of our history and how we developed.

Interesting stuff, Foxy. While of course Western literature contains many biblical allusions and references, they also pervade the vernacular.

For example, the classic Australian adjective "bloody" is thought by many linguists to derive from "by our Lady", a sacreligious expression in use in Shakespeare's day. Other common expressions that are thought to derive from blasphemy (or the avoidance thereof) are "Crikey" (Christ), "Gee" (Jesus), "Heck" (Hell), "Darn" (Damn) etc.

Most of these terms are now used routinely in conversation, with little to no awareness of their Christian provenance.

runner <The words of Jesus Christ are a 10000 times more impressive than a man bound by his own ego.>

The King James Bible John 14:6:

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

The above is the most egotistic statement that I know of. If Rudd, Obama or Tony Abbot said something like that you would know they have gone around the bend. According to Jesus statement it doesn't matter how good a life you have led, it doesn't matter how good you have been to others Jesus is the gatekeeper. Sheer egomania!

Fortunately, some Christians can see what such statements have led to. One of those Christians is Anglican Bishop John Shelby Spong who is aware of the bigotry in the Bible and in the words of Jesus. From his website:

http://www.johnshelbyspong.com/bishopspongon_theTerribleTexts.aspx

"RELIGIOUS BIGOTRY:
"No one comes to the Father but by me" (John 14:6)
This text has helped to create a world where adherents of one religion feel compelled to kill adherents of another. A veritable renaissance of religious terror now confronts us and is making against us the claims we have long made against religious traditions different from our own."

Of course Bishop Spong is not the only Christian who is aware of the bloody history of Christianity. Since the Gospels were written years after Jesus' death he may not have even said those words even though they are attributed to him.

The Bible contains great beauty and great wisdom, but it should not be read uncritically.

On another thread Oliver posted http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_tora1.htm which yields scholarship on who wrote the five books of Moses. The Bible is a collection of texts, some beautifully written, from many sources. We cannot be aware of the cultural influences in our society without knowing about the Bible - not only the text but also its history and the way it was composed.

Maybe Jesus was not an egomaniac and never said those words. However, John 14:6 is the saying of an egomaniac.

Dear snake,

We should indeed we aware of our history
and how we developed.

Dear CJ,

Thanks for your input. It's greatly
appreciated as always - and you've
reminded all of us - where our modern
expressions came from.

Different cultural groups will in various
periods indicate a preference for certain
themes, narrative structures and narrative
styles. They will make different choices from
amongst the universal range of possibilities.
The Japanese, for instance, show a marked distinction
between the language considered suitable in
telling stories for children and for adults.
In English, this distinction in increasingly
blurred. Usually there is also
cultural expectation that by a certain age or stage
an individual claiming membership of the group
will have become familiar with a basic stock of
approved stories - whether or not this be a set
of nursery rhymes, Bible stories, novels, and so
forth, as in our culture. Interestingly, an
"excess of stories" seems in most cultures to be
accorded respect and to mark the individual as a
wise, learned or "cultured" person.

david f,
Jesus was not being exclusive in the statement, "no one comes to the Father except through me". He was identifying his life, behaviour and character. So I suggest you evaluate his life, attitudes and actions; then state you consider these egocentric or rather the example of one whose life is to be followed to be godly.

Those that live by these values are to be admired, are to be followed as are able to bring one close to God. Teach these values if you want a society that is to be truly admired.

I've said this quite a bit..because it is a great concern for our children.

WHAT IS COMMUNISM.. would probably rank with 'WHO IS/WAS JESUS CHRIST'

I must start surveying on the 2nd also.. but so many I've spoken to draw a complete blank on Communism... quite likely Jesus too. (?)

So.. to stick ridigly to the topic.. it would be a great idea to include reference to our traditions and sources in everyday education.

Dear Philo,

Expressions of bigotry and intolerance express bigotry and intolerance even when they are quotes attributed to Jesus.

Each culture produces its heroes:

Attila from Hungary; Cuchulain and Finn
from Ireland; Ogier the Dane; Roland and
St Joan from France; Sigurd from the Norse
and Icelandic sagas who becomes
Siegfried in German stories; Antar of Arabia;
Rustem of Iran; Rama the Indian hero; and
Scarface of the Blackfoot Indians - to select
only a few.

In our own century we can become our own
storytellers and make the printed words
bring back to life these worlds of
enchantment.

Strangely, Europe had culture before they converted to Christianity and many places remained not much different.

The notion that our culture 'comes from' Christianity' isn't quite true.
Let's see- our system of governance and law originates in ancient greek and roman tradition from times BEFORE Christianity existed (which I might add, came from then very much-non-western Palestine).

Both the Romans and Greeks were polytheistic pagans when they were practicing these systems at some point.

Foxy, I see where you are coming from, but the title of your post has the word 'religious' in it, so you are going to have to expect some strong religious opinions that not everyone will bother reading!

Yes, the stories from the Bible have caused multiple phrases and names to be peppered all through many Christian based communities all over the world. It is, after all, part of many people's cultures from way back.

I do agree with King Hazza though when she says we also have strong influences from the many thousands of years that humans were on earth before the advent of Christianity.

"The die has been cast." Pronounced by Julius Caesar when he entered Italy with his army in 49 BC.

"Let there be light"
This is the Latin translation of a Hebrew phrase. The phrase is often used for its metaphorical meaning of dispelling ignorance.

Of course we cannot forget the great Confucius, 551BC- 477BC, who had plenty of common sense wisdom to give the people of the world, long before Jesus was born:

"Respect yourself and others will respect you".
" To see what is right and not do it, is want of courage".
" Hold faithfulness and sincerity as first principles".

And he wrote many hundreds more pearls of wisdom we could all do well to live by.....

Examples of "love your neighbour as you love yourself" though quoted by Jesus had it foundations in the Hebrew Torah Leviticus 19: 18 given by Moses in 1,300 BC. The wisdom gathered by Kings David and Solomon in Israel around 1,000 - 970BC gives evidence of Hebrew scholars influence on Culture and Christian thought through even to today. Reading of the Psalms and Proverbs gives evidence that no person owns wisdom but those that follow its principles as set in place by the Creator are following the wisdom and light of the eternal Creator.

The Law, social justice and community behaviour has always been centred around theistic views. That these principles were set in place by the Creator. The attempt by some to outdo or deny the Christian influence on society is falacious, as for 5,000 years the Creator of human history has been attributed as the judge of human behaviour with blessings upon the righteous or curses upon the disobedient.

That human society is so fractured today is evidence that the curse of sin [sin = rejection of the Creator's principles] is applied upon violation of good social order Romans 1.

Correct Suzie, and let's not forget all the cultures, inventions and religions that have existed thousands of years before (and for your interest Philo), OLDER than 5,000- ancient Chinese, ancient Egyptian, etc- all functioning at quite a sophisticated level BEFORE. If you really want to go into depths is that Aborigines sailed to Australia about 50,000 years ago.

Excellent posts.

Thank You.

Now, it's becoming interesting!

In another tradition, travellers to Bali
will almost certainly have been introduced
through mime, dance and puppetry to the
pervasive Indian epic, the "Ramayana" of
the wise Valmiki, going back some 3,000 years.
Although the "Ramayana" was orignally
written in rhymed couplets, it has been recited
and orally passed on from generation to generation
in the East, where it is still an integral part
of culture and religion.

Please keep it coming.
Does anyone know of any "Dreamtime" stories?

I actually first encountered the Ramayana and the Mahabharata as part of an 'Asian Social Studies' course in junior high school in NSW. As I (dimly) recall, the context was to assist in understanding Balinese Wayang puppet theatre.

It's not just those societies with a Christian heritage that incorporate religiously based themes and idioms in their literary culture. I'm pleased to say that I learned that at an Australian State high school way back in the 1960s!

ambishus, Foxy; very ambitious. I'd be happy if we could just get kids to spell.
Was it ABC online, or another recently, which wrote of a 'bellweather'?
That professional journalists should be illiterate is truly a sign of the times. I'm sick up and fed of people 'loosing' things, and does the sentence "...are a (ten thousand) times more impressive..." ring true? A couple more zeroes and maybe some commas would have helped that sentence, to my mind.
As for aphorisms, better to consult the farming community, to my mind. Indeed, farmers supplied many of the best in the bible, for that matter.
As ye sow, so shall ye reap...

Suzonline

very fair post of yours. The difference between the stories or wisdom of confucious and Jesus is that (if you look close enough) Jesus knew his destiny was the cross, and why it had to be. Also, his mission included miracle and sign. Such that a blind man, (blind from birth) could say to the Pharisees interrogating him "Whether this man is a sinner I don't know..but one thing I know. I was blind, and now I see"
(John 9 territory)

Look at any major 'religious figure'

Buddah
Mohammad
Confucious
Zoroaster
Sikh Gurus
Baha Ullah (Bahai)

and in no case was any substantial sequence (important word)of miracles or signs attributed to them.

No..this is not a 'my religion is better than yours' thing..it's pure fact. (some might say only the reports are)

This is what caused Christianity to take such deep root during times of persecution. It was a message of a man who came to die (and rise).. and the Christian understanding of that death is 'for our sins'....

The resurrection is the pivotal point in history. Christianity would have died if they could have produced a corpse of Christ.

-They couldn't
-It didn't
-and hence we speak now :)

Can we examine Christian documents as 'literature' and do them justice without taking this side into account?

King Hazza,
Could you enlighten us on the literary DOCUMENTS [for attention] from Egypt and China that are more than 5,000 years old and indicate their difference from current wisdom taught by Jewish and Christian traditions. Tell us how they add to Western culture. Remember Moses was trained in Egypt as a State leader and his culture is attributed to his faith in YHWH.

Thanks again for further excellent posts
and for broadening the field to include
all cultures in this discussion.

Bruno Bettelheim in his book, "The Uses of
Enchantment..." tells us that , "The very
spate of re-issues of traditional stories
attest a faith not only in the literary
heritage...but in the wisdom, insight...
magic and wonder which is the life-blood
of that literature and of those far-off,
forgotten folk from whom it had its being."

We've got in prose, the proverb, fable, parable...
We've got Literal folk sayings; "An Apple a Day
Keeps the Doctor Away; metaphorical advice:
"Don't Count Your Chickens Before They Are
Hatched; prediction or warning: Hasten Slowly;
and homely philosophical observations; Birds
of a Feather Flock Together; All That Glitters
is Not Gold. All these linger as a mental
shorthand and conversational tags.

Parables have been described as , "An earthly
story with a heavenly meaning." The Good Samaritan
as told in Luke 10 is one of the most economical
yet highly-charged narratives in literature.
And of course the parables of Jesus will always be
relevant for their literary as well as their spiritual
inspiration.

Many brief folk stories are somewhere between fables and
parables. For example,
Persian tales, as Arthur Scholey
tells us in, "The Discontented Dervishes and Other
Persian Tales," contain snippets of inherent wisdom
and understanding:

The Good Deed
A village chief saw a man take a thorn
out of the foot of an orphan.
That night he dreamed of the man,
sauntering with pleasure in the garden
of Paradise and saying: "Look how many roses
blossomed from that thorn!"

“If Not Higher” by Peretz

“Early every Friday morning, at the time of the Penitential Prayers, the rabbi of Nemirov would vanish. The members of the congregation wondered where he could be, but they assumed he was absent for some worthwhile purpose. However, a Litvak (Lithuanian Jew) was not satisfied and schemed to find out where the rabbi went.”

Peretz describes the Litvak:

"You know the Litvaks. They think little of the holy books (the books of the Bible are the five books of Moses, Prophets and Writings) but stuff themselves with Talmud and the law (The Talmud is the commentary on the Bible. Litvaks should know the Bible so well that in all but elementary religious studies with the commentaries and the minutiae of the law detailed in such documents as the Shulchan Aruch.). “So this Litvak points to a passage in the Gemara – it sticks in your eyes – where it is written that even Moses our Teacher did not ascend to heaven in his lifetime but remained suspended two and a half feet below. Go argue with a Litvak”.

The Litvak stole into the rabbi’s house and hid under the bed. When the rabbi arose the Litvak followed him and watched as the rabbi cut down a small tree in a nearby wood. The rabbi took the wood and went to a shack of a poor woman. Playing the part of a Russian peasant the rabbi offered to sell the woman the wood. Since the woman had no money he said he would trust her for it and started a fire. While he was making the fire the rabbi recited the Penitential Prayers

The last two paragraphs of the story:

"The Litvak who saw all this became a disciple of the rabbi.

And ever after, when another disciple tells how the rabbi of Nemirov ascends to heaven at the time of the Penitential Prayers, the Litvak does not laugh. He only adds quietly, “If not higher.”

Not attending the prayers and lying about his identity were wrong but holy purpose made it right.

Dear David F.,

Thank You for that beautiful tale.

Have you by any chance read the book,
"From Russia With Lunch: A Lithuanian
Odyssey," by David Smiedt.

As the comedian Adam Hills says, the book
is, "A cross between Bill Bryson and
Robin Williams - but in a good way!"

I highly recommend it.

I'll just quote a bit from it:

"Eighty-two years after Moses Dibobis escaped
from the Lithuanian hamlet of Birzai with nothing
but a packed lunch, his grandson David Smiedt
journeys back to the former Soviet enclave
looking for a link to his grandfather that extends
beyond a receding hairline and shared sense of
humour. What he finds there is that premium vodka
is cheaper than water, spa treatments are more than
a little invasive and that Stalin theme parks and
eccentric museums are just the beginning of the
charms of this beguiling nation. By the end of his
journey, David finally has an answer to his
mother-in-law's question: 'Who are your people?'

David Smiedt reveals a land unknown by many.
And as it says on the back cover - "better still,
he eats pigs' ears so you don't have to!"

ALGOREisRICH,<"...and in no case was any substantial sequence (important word)of miracles or signs attributed to them.
No..this is not a 'my religion is better than yours' thing..it's pure fact. (some might say only the reports are)"

I'm sorry Mr Rich, but what 'facts'? Are we talking about the bible here? A 2000 year old book written by several men- most fishermen- who claim to have 'seen' miracles?

Sorry, that is not enough for me.
Your God seems to have slowed down with the miracles in modern day life, since we have scientific tests to disprove all that rubbish!

Apologies if these have already been mentioned:

Gave up the ghost:

And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God. (Mark 15:38-40)

Salt of the earth:

Ye are the salt of the earth... (Matthew 5:12-14)


It's better to give than receive:

I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. (Acts 20:35)

This is my favourite passage because of the message, but also because of the beauty of the wording:

Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

26Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

27Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

28And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

... ..

34Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

(Matthew 6)

Dear Suze,

Where have you been?
I've missed your posts.

Dear Pynch,

Thanks for your brilliant quotes.

One of my favourites is:

"When two people are at one in their inmost hearts
They shatter even the strength of iron or of bronze
And when two people understand each other in their
inmost hearts
Their words are sweet and strong like the fragrance of
orchids."

The I Ching (c. 1000 BC)

The I Ching (The Book of Changes) is one of the oldest
books in the world, dating back to around 1000 BC,
and based on an even older shamanistic oral tradition.
It is an ancient Chinese system of divination.

The central problem with Dawkins idea is that you go backwards if you try to extract the "magic" of much religious literature from the "magic" of its faith. If you reject the picture that's painted , you usually end up with lots of bits that don't fit back together- unless you accept what you've just rejected. The nature of painting!
Paint your own picture? Many have tried, but what author has actually done it in the post modern world?
We need pictures and stories to put us beyond the particular ; to keep both what we know, and what we don't know into perspective.
Also , without a way out of our situation,( lot of modern literature) just talking about the situation is not all that useful for most of us . Look at all the scripts that noone wants to read , even in our own day - real or fantasy ?
Mere words of wisdom are not enough either . Richard Dawkins doing a John Laws.. really? -
Many of the authors of the good books saw the limitations of mere knowledge and would have well understood our revelation about the " sum of the parts " problem in our cultures welded on commitment to mere description. Infact, that revelation meant that many of the old greeks moved on from "the Greek" to incorporate something special about the Hebrew way of thinking.
There was no rejection of logic, but a recognition of its limitations . Logically, to limit your understanding of the universe to the ideas that YOU can string together may be to limit your understanding.
One of the oldest books, Job is a good example of the realistic and unfinished tensions in the stories that make them interesting reading to new generations of readers .Job poses as many questions as it solves . Most of the books do the same - people found Jesus's words and actions off putting.
The words of wisdom "parts" that we may rememeber pack a lot more punch when listed with the lives, actions and interactions in a whole scene .

ALGOREisRICH wrote: ‘"Jesus, Lord of lords and King of kings" crucified for our sins and raised from the dead, according to the scriptures.’

From “Origins of Pagan and Christian Creeds” by Carpenter:

“At the time of the life or recorded appearance of Jesus of Nazareth, and for some centuries before, the Mediterranean and neighboring world had been the scene of a vast number of pagan creeds and rituals. There were Temples without end dedicated to gods like Apollo or Dionysus among the Greeks, Hercules among the Romans, Mithra among the Persians, Adonis and Attis in Syria and Phrygia, Osiris and Isis and Horus in Egypt, Baal and Astarte among the Babylonians and Carthaginians, and so forth.

Societies, large or small, united believers and the devout in the service or ceremonials connected with their respective deities, and in the creeds which they confessed concerning these deities. And an extraordinarily interesting fact, for us, is that notwithstanding great geographical distances and racial differences between the adherents of these various cults, as well as differences in the details of their services, the general outlines of their creeds and ceremonials were--if not identical--so markedly similar as we find them.

I cannot of course go at length into these different cults, but I may say roughly that of all or nearly all the deities above-mentioned it was said and believed that:

(1) They were born on or very near our Christmas Day.

(2) They were born of a Virgin-Mother.

(3) And in a Cave or Underground Chamber.

(4) They led a life of toil for Mankind.

(5) And were called by the names of Light-bringer, Healer, Mediator,
Savior, Deliverer.

(6) They were however vanquished by the Powers of Darkness.

(7) And descended into Hell or the Underworld.

(8) They rose again from the dead, and became the pioneers of mankind to the Heavenly world.

(9) They founded Communions of Saints, and Churches into which disciples were received by Baptism.

(10) And they were commemorated by Eucharistic meals.”

Myths current in the classical world spiced up the story of Jesus. Christianity got an undue market share.

Foxy,

Short answer. No. religious education is religious education … your proposal is religion by stealth. Clearly you are now wandering into Anthropology ( under grad. area.)
and at that level probably.

Long answer,
To me your reasoning is flawed if aimed at lower levels of education.
In the first instance it assumes that our culture is fixed....it isn't.

It assumes that 'our' culture should be taught (reinforced) in an education system (NB. I distinguish between Civics and culture particularly (religion) the two are different).

I would have been amazed if the bible potted wisdoms and phrases hadn't permeated the the common language. Clearly that was the intention of the authors and subsequent
religious editors. Historically it was about religious power and dogma.

Having said that these terms have lost most of their original intentions and are arguably stand alone to day. By your standards we should study Franklin's “Poor Richards Almanac“ there are numerous term (potted wisdoms) there that in various forms are used today i.e. if you lay down with dogs you get up with fleas.
Is PRA literature? I'm not convinced.

Like wise terms like “Cock up” is an old archery term meaning that the flight was set with a feather bit (flight) pointing up resulting a short distance.
“Going off half cocked” a malfunctioning (unexpected) musket.
“One for the road” was a rhum (old spelling) for a condemned person outside the pub on the waggon on their way to be hung, while the guards had one.
“on the waggon” meant the condemned person he didn't want a drink.
Are they interesting ? yes 'cultural' literature No.?
In short you are over emphasising/ projecting.
There are hundreds of English bibles.

Sorry foxy, but you need better arguments to convince me

Dear David F

as you wish or choose.

People are free (thus far) to assess information and make choices.

While we have that freedom.. let's enjoy it.

Hopefully, we will make the wisest choice based on the best information.

david f,
Please identify the teachings currently taught in the Temples of Apollo, Dionysus, Hercules, Mithra, Adonis, Attis, Phrygia, Osiris and Isis and Horus, Baal and Astarte. Where are their current centres of worship and teaching in Australian culture? Obviously the Roman World in the third century quashed them all and as a compromise to the citizens corrupted Christianity by syncretism many of the Roman festivals.

Why did Christianity become predominant in Roman history in the 3rd Century when it only had a few thousand followers? What changed the Culture?

Looking foward to your answers!

Bruno Bettelheim who I've cited previously
tell us:

"Plato - who may have understood better what
forms the mind of man than do some of our
contemporaries who want their children
exposed only to 'real' people and everyday
events - knew what intellectual experiences
make for true humanity. He suggested that the
future citizens of his ideal republic begin
their literary education with the telling of
myths, rather than with mere facts or so-called
rational teachings. Even Aristotle, master of
pure reason, said: "The friend of wisdom is also
a friend of myth."

Bettelheim tells us that:

"As with folk tales of every culture - they have
their store of legend. Indeed, most families treasure
their private and local legend. "Tell me about..."
demand the youth of the clan, tribe, nation."

"So exploits are passed down, gaining accretions of
incident and heroic detail with each new generation.
In the fullness of time the actual historic events
become clouded, and, sometimes, as in the case of the
Arthurian legends and Bible stories, become tinged with
the supernatural. For even before the birth of Arthur,
Merlin the prophet and messenger had foretold the coming
of one that was greater than he."

"Originally transmitted orally, in mime or dance legends,
and hero tales provide a sense of cultural identity,
and unlike fairy tales they can be specific of place and
person. Time is seldom exact but an historic era can
be specified or implied."

The story of Samson the Israelite, that I mentioned in
a previous post is almost a prototype of the hero tale.
Like so many heroes, Samson's pride in his own strength,
his hubris, was his undoing, but the legend testifies
to his courage in the end.

The ultimate personal triumph of the hero is never as
important as the relentless pursuit of his quest, or
the successful completion of each successive task.

All races and cultures have their national heroes,
and it would seem certain that those from the heroic
past will continue to outlive if not outshine the
modern stars of rock and roll.

cont'd ...

Most parents
want to surround their children with a
sturdy sensibility, a world view, and they
want it to be different from the "Me"
mentality of modern culture.

Television is not part of the solution.
Even if television offered twienty-four hour
of uplifting intelligent fare each day,
a sound bite on moral courage just does not
penetrate. The medium delivers information in
a flash - and then it's gone.

Stories found in books, by contrast, seep into
our very being. We all have books that have lifted
the fog for us, caused the Great Aha!, and literally
changed our lives. The printed word is pondered,
and it is received only when the mind is fully
engaged. Like no other medium it has the power to
stay with us!

In my own case I learned from biographies that even
great individuals start out as everyday children -
letting all children know that life's possibilities
are without limit.

Then as I've already mentioned there are the role
models in legends and historical stories and fairy
tales. Cinderella enchanted not because she got the
prince but because she was cheerful and dignified even
in unbearable circumstances. King Arthur showed what a
noble deed looked like - and that there is such a thing
as duty and sacrifice, and so on.

Great literature is not didactic, though it almost
always instructs. Literature that strains to
instruct almost always fails.

This is not to damn all books that are written in the
realistic mode. A vast number of realistic books
are written without a social agenda or the need to be
explicit or titillating, and they are marvellous,
humourous, powerful, disturbing, illuminating,
everything one might want in a good read.

But, it does make sense to be aware of what your
children are reading, and to make sure that the best
books - including - classics old and new, are available
to them.

Our role as parents as I've stated before - is not to
protect our children from the truth, but to protect
them from something less than the truth.

Childrens immagination is fantacy their stories are full of it; it is the seed of new inventions like flight, the combustion engine the mobile phone etc, etc.

Nothing is impossible to the dreamer - it just takes immagination and research on how it might become reality. To restrict people to known reality stunts their immagination and retards social development.

Dear Philo,

It is not the numbers of followers that determine whether a movement can take over a power structure. It is the key position of the followers. One very important follower of Jesus was Constantine's mother. Christianity took over a vast empire in the same manner that the Bolsheviks were able to take over the great Russian Empire in 1917.

How was the great nation of Germany taken over by the Nazis? The popularity of Marxism, Nazism and Christianity indicates once an ideology seizes the levers of power most people will go along with it even though it is absolute nonsense.

In fact the mythology of Christianity and Marxism are much the same. Primitive Communism or a Garden of Eden, the class struggle or a time of troubles until Christianity/Communism is dominant followed by an the millennium at the Second Coming or a millennium of the eventual classless society. The original sin of Marxist history was the development of capitalism which propelled humans out of the paradise of primitive communism into the class struggle.

Eventually the Soviet Union imploded from its own contradictions. The percentage of people who identify themselves as Christian is declining so Christianity may also implode. The present relevations of Vatican coverup of sexual abuse doesn't help. Fundamentalist Christian interference with science teaching doesn't help either. The bloody history of Christianity with its Inquisitions, Crusades, Wars of the Reformation etc. gives little reason to continue the nonsense.

Secularized organized religions have
become, in many cases, as calcified
as other institutions that form
the structure of our modern world.
Our religious institutions have far too
often become handmaidens of the status
quo, while the genuine religious
experience is anything but that.

Religious institutions, as such, are not
the only arbiters of religious experience.
They are consultants and frameworks, but
they are not God Himself. We should not
confuse the path with the destination.

Organized religion will have to step up
to bat, religiously, or it will wither
away. Organized religious institutions
are in for a huge transformation, for
the simple reason that people have become
genuinely religious in spite of them.

Spirituality is an inner fire, a mystical
sustenance that feeds our souls. Religion
means "to bind back." Its purpose is to
turn back into ourselves, to the well
inside from which we are endlessly creative.
I have come to realize that true religion
is internal, not external. What some have
done in the name of religion, projecting
their neuroses, even perpetrating evil on
the world, does not make religion as a
mystical phenomenon invalid.

Dear Foxy,

Religion suffers by being associated with the instruments of power. I think Judaism suffers by its association with the government of Israel as Christianity suffered by becoming an instrument of Roman rule. Both religions have been corrupted by power.

In the Talmud are various midrashim or stories which seek to soften the harshness of the Bible. One of the stories concerns the crossing of the Red Sea. As the waters closed over the ranks of the Egyptian the angels around the Lord cheered. The Lord told them not to cheer but wept because the Egyptians were also his children.

In the Spanish-American War at the battle of Santiago the Spanish ships were battered by the long range American guns. They were unable to retaliate since the Americans kept out of range of their guns. The American sailors cheered. John Woodward Philip restrained his crew by saying, “Don’t cheer, boys; the poor devils are dying.”

When I heard the bomb dropped on Hiroshima and wiped out many people I felt a great joy. Afterward I questioned my great joy at a mass killing. What had I become?

I believe there is an impulse for us to be kind and loving. Unfortunately religion does not often foster that impulse and even can demand that we stifle our decent impulses.

According to the Bible God hardened Pharaoh’s heart so he would not let the people go. Had he softened Pharaoh’s heart the drowning of the Egyptians would have been unnecessary. God was a bloody hypocrite weeping over something he caused in the first place. The God of the Bible is simply a nasty entity unworthy of my worship.

However, that does not mean we can ignore the promptings of love and decency and the wonders of this world. Today the Queensland Mycology Society went for a foray in which we found 27 species of mushrooms. We identified about half and probably will identify the others. If we don’t we may have discovered a new species. Exciting!

david f,
Your impression that Christianity is now a dying phase in humanity is far from the truth. It is just that you mix among atheistic people like yourself.

You do not live in China or Africa where thousands are becoming Christian followers each day. China has over 200,000 home missionaries who are also developing their culture from underground. No Government edict or force, in fact the current Government is threatening such a movement. The people are looking for personal meaning and finding it in Christ.

Similar happened in South Korea that the majority religion identified there is Christianity. The largest Church in the World is in South Korea with over 75,000 members. Christianity is personal and not national.

Russia is again educating their children in the values of Christianity. I was with a clinical phycologist and educator friend tonight who is shortly going to Russia in the promotion of a book and course on values designed for schools.

davidf, I don't have the knowledge or authority to answer questions about the Bible or any religious text.

Please excuse me then if this post seems preachy. It isn't meant to be but I want to set out my personal framework for understanding the Bible and Christianity.

Years ago I spent a few years keenly studying as much religious text and writing about the Bible as I could and comparing the interpretation of one authority with another. I concluded that the most knowledgeable and capable historians and theologians had dedicated their lives to comprehending such matters and even they often disagreed - with interpretations of some parts hanging on a single word, inflection or idiom that had certain relevance to the writer, audience and in the language and setting of the time. Historiography and the ethics of writing history helped me to understand how to appreciate some accounts and characters in the context of the time in which they occurred or were supposed to have occurred.

Btw: Here is an example of how something like your question about the hardening of Pharaoh's heart might be understood:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2259

In the end, I arrived at a few points that provided me with a framework for my Christian commitment:

1. We can forever pick and debate - but the meaning of what we read occurs in the combination of what a text says literally and what the reader brings of their self to it. (Their knowledge of, for example, history and society of the times; their own heart; their experience and understanding of humanity).

2. I came to understand that there is a literal meaning and a spiritual meaning - such as one accepts in fables, mythology and such.
I stood back and took the broad view that much of what we were reading was comprised of writings from many sources of stories that were meant for oral story telling. The large mass of population were basically illiterate. Stories had to have some compelling images and ideas to withstand telling and retelling while conveying the spiritual message or moral lesson.

cont'd

3. I thought about Jesus' life and attitude. Jesus was a radical in his own time. Even striking up a conversation with a strange woman at a well was a radical act. I thought about his followers - all types. He was inclusive; not exclusive.

4. In a time of terrible harshness amongst people Jesus carried a message of hope and kindness. He demonstrated the power of gentleness and humility. A couple of thousand years later; that example still has value and is still something humanity strives towards.

5. Church organizations are imperfect; as all organizations created by humans seem to be. They aren't useless (sometimes in history being the only source of charity, for example) but they are flawed, of course. Never mind - God is not a church or one creed.

6. Luke 18:17 - Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
(Also relevant - Matthew 19:14) It struck me that I didn't need to KNOW or have an explanation for everything in a literal sense. I needed to reign in my natural (extreme) curiosity and accept what I didn't have the knowledge or experience to KNOW for certain (like a child accepts that what a parent says is true and in their best interest); I decided to trust and love with the confidence that things would become known to me in due course.
Galatians 3:11 - But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
and

7. Galatians 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Another book that was very meaningful to me was Kenneth Clark's - Civilization. It's quite an old one but is always a joy to read especially re: the way in which Christianity became meaningful throughout Europe and the way that ideas were transmitted through art and architecture etc.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/0719568447/ref=dp_proddesc_0?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books

Dear Philo,

I wrote: "Christianity may implode." not "Christianity will implode." I cannot predict what will happen. I only think that its demise would do more good than harm. I may even be wrong in that.

Dear Pynchme,

Karl Marx once gave great hope to the oppressed. Marxists still revere him. They ignore the horrible record of Marxism which has resulted in the oppression and murder of millions. They ignore his wish for the 'dictatorship of the proletariat' which resulted in the oppression dictatorships result in. They also ignore his words of bigotry.

Jesus was a legendary figure. As I pointed out in John 14:6 he sometimes spoke in a bigoted and intolerant matter. Most Christians ignore his words of bigotry and speak of his examplary life. They also ignore the horrible history of Christianity and the misery it has caused. I have written of the Tooth Fairy many times as I believe belief in her is no more rational than belief in Jesus and God.

However, the Tooth Fairy is not recorded as speaking words of bigotry, and her believers have not gone on Crusades, sponsored Inquisitions, engaged in Wars with those whose belief in the Tooth Fairy differs from theirs as Christians did in the Wars of the Reformation. I prefer belief in the Tooth Fairy to belief in God or Jesus.

Dear Pynchme,

One problem is that we look on things with very different eyes. You cited:

Galatians 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

I think that is one of the many bad sayings in Christianity. I have been subjected to missionaries who have cited that verse to me.

Since Jesus said nothing against slavery, and Paul advised slaves to obey their master the 'neither bond nor free' part of the saying is meaningless piffle.

Suppose one does not want to be in Christ Jesus. Suppose one wants to preserve one's identity as a Greek or Jew. Christians in their intolerance want everyone to accept their mumbojumbo. I feel it is parking one's brains by the door to believe in the virgin birth and other Christian nonsense.

One trouble with Christianity and Islam is their missionary aspect. Historically it has been sometimes followed by massacres when people wish to retain their beliefs and not be one in Christ Jesus or follow Allah. I don't know how many martyrs to their faith have resulted because people did not want to be one in Christ Jesus, but I know it is a large number.

You cite Galatians 3:28 which you think is good to me who sees it as evil. Please accept that everyone doesn't want to be one in Christ Jesus. I regard a world where Christianity would hold sway over all as worse than the present one. The period of history in Europe where Christianity ruled is called the Dark Ages for good reason.

I know it is difficult for some Christians to understand, but many other people do not want their religion. They should be left alone.

Dear David.F

you said:

//Suppose one does not want to be in Christ Jesus. Suppose one wants to preserve one's identity as a Greek or Jew.//

The solution to this situation is blatantly obvious.

"remain as you are"..simply don't change anything, why should you?

Is anyone going to force you to change? If people bug you about it..just walk away, if they keep coming after you....call the cops :) not hard.

David f,
You said,"The period of history in Europe where Christianity ruled is called the Dark Ages for good reason."

It was call the Dark Ages by true followers of Jesus followers because those in control of the State /Church supressed the enlightenment and true practise of Jesus compassion and social justice. The Leaders were not followers of the teachings and attitudes of Jesus. Do not evaluate the teachings of Christ on the behaviour of those in power in the Church whose lives are condemned by Jesus words

Dear davidf,

Thanks for taking the trouble to reply.

As I said in my first point, I think interpretation occurs in the culmination of the literal text and what the reader brings to it.

Slavery was in it's time often an ordinary social class arrangement. Today I suppose we might say "employee" or menial labourer or welfare recipient or perhaps refugee, depending on the type of event that's given rise to gross social disadvantage.

For me Galatians 3:28 refers not to individual identity, but to the distribution of blessings regardless of identity. It also to me means that the distinctions we make that relegate humans to various categories are artificial, socially constructed and temporal.

But those meanings arise because of my peculiar life experience and knowledge; and you have yours of course.

Again thanks for your reply.

Dear David F., and Pynch,

Thank You for broadening the discussion.
I enjoyed your posts.

Down the ages ring questions as to the nature
of humankind; where on the spectrum of might,
power, and understanding do men and women
belong? How will the battle of good and evil
end? Is death an end or a beginning?

In what we like to think of as more primitive
times man speculated, and symbolised his answers
in story: what we call myth. What causes night
and day? Why do the seasons come and go?
How? What's the origin of fire? Flood? Disaster?

Every culture, it would seem, has its mythology,
needs answers to the unknown that satisfy an inner
need. The myths remain s models of human behaviour
that help give meaning and value to life.
As science provides answers, new questions and new
dilemmas arise. Some still refute science, or remain
unconvinced; and there are those who see these "tales
from eternity" as images of man's ongoing spiritual
search for a way to Truth and Life.

Hey Philo, how many thousands of times must we hear one Christian saying of other Christians "Oh, but they weren't really Christians..." Or "The Leaders were not followers of the teachings and attitudes of Jesus."
Have you given up everything you own, to follow his footsteps?

This thread I now feel has run its course.
It went for much longer than I expected
and I wish to Thank everyone who contributed
to it.

I have always believed that not only is a close
encounter with traditional literature a
cross-cultural experience, it also provides an
historical, cultural, aesthetic and spiritual
experience.

In the words of Maurice Saxby:

"If the blue of the Aegean deepens and intensifies
as Icarus and Daedalus fly overhead, and if at
Delphi the Oracle still speaks to men of imagination,
then the bora ring or a fish carved into rock can
point to an ordering of life's chaos, the possibility
of reconciling the present with the past and of
personal harmony in a world threatened with
disintegration..."

Grim,
Learn what is meant by Jesus definition of being his followers. No where did he tell all his followers to give up all their posessions. Even the apostle Peter had a house and he went back to his boat fishing following Jesus death. It means surrender all for the cause including onself.

Dear Philo,

It is nonsense that the lives of those in power in the Church are condemned by Jesus. That is in your mind. Jesus died a number of years ago. He was not a Christian when he died. As a Jew he would wonder about you claiming to follow him while rejecting his Jewish religion. There is no reason to think he would approve of any Christian.

The Wars of the Reformation ended quite a while ago. Both sides were murderers, but even murderers have their good points.

The truth is that Jesus has no followers. Jews do not need him since they have the Jewish Bible with Jesus' best lines such as "Love they neighbour as thyself." Christians don't follow him because Jesus was never a Christian. Christians founded a new religion in his name but don't follow the religion of Jesus.

Dear Pynchme,

Thanks for your reasonable tone. I believe temporal distinctions and those socially constructed are the only meaningful distinctions. In the grave there are no distinctions. We are all dead.

Slaves occupied many slots from workers in the mines who did not live very long to managers of estates. However, all slaves were not free to leave. It is more than mere social disadvantage.

Dear ALGOREisRICH,

Missionaries should show a little sensitivity and not harass people.

Hey Philo, what about Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, "if you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in Heaven. Then come, follow me".
Don't tell me, let me guess. This line is open to interpretation, that only a 'true' Christian can possibly hope to understand.
Apologies, Foxy, for 'bringing not love, but a sword', to your friendly post.

Dear David F...

lets ammend the RRT to include 'No missionary bugging of uninterested people" :)

Dear ALGOREisRICH,

I agree to your amendment.

I thought we'd finished - but we're
still going it seems.

I recently came across a few words that
I found written by author Bryce Courtenay
that I thought you may enjoy:

"There is a lust for life in much of
our language. It is covered in yellow
dust and hardened by drought, then
made soggy again with too much rain,
rendered rough tough once more by
bad times and fluffy as a lamington
by good fortune yet again restored.
It is the language of an uncertain
ambivalent land not yet entirely sure
of who it is, though bloody certain
it isn't returning to where it came
from. Australia's early White settlers,
unlike their American counterparts
who left England to the promise of a
richer and freer existence, were dragged
kicking and screaming from the dungeons
of Newgate and the hulks of Bristol to
the living death of an isolated and
barren land... Their language bore the
marks of shackles and carried the
inflections of the destitute and the whine
of the shanty Irish. It matured in a harsh
land with few of the niceties: just as those
little white pantaloons do not belong on the
end of an Australian lamb chop, os our ways
of speech are blunter than our antecedent
tongue. Our language is laconic and often
recalcitrant, but even in its lazy vowels
it has a vigour; a common touch which is not
being included in much of the work of
Australian writers. Too often our writers
ape the English way and look at our native
language as if our words were river pebbles
pushed forward and tumbled by another stream
of influence, a babbling English brook and
not a roiling, flood-rushed creek..."

I agree with the author when he tells us that:

"Books are the playground of our language.
They are our cultural past and the foot
stamp of our present. When they are Australian
made they should be a
celebration of where we've been and a guide
for where we're going."

David f,
You speak such nonsense! Jesus was put to death by the religious Jews of his time for blasphemy, disturbance in the Temple precinct, harvesting grain and healing breaking the Sabbath rest. What did they cry? Crucify! Crucify! Paul who trained under Gamaeliel and was complicit in the stoning of Stephen and the arrest and death of others; upon recognising the truth of Jesus as the Christ established the gathering of people together in Christ's name - the name meaning having in them the spirit of Christ [Messiah] - hence christ-in.

I have on my desk current magazines produced by the Israeli Christian Embassy on activities in Israel. One nephew an Orthodox Rabbi in Perth WA and several family members of the Orthodox Jewish faith. Christianity had its roots, heritage and foundation in Jewish thought and the same Textual view of God and Messiah. Among my many emails I also receive emails each week from Chabad.org an Orthodox Jewish e-mag[subscriptions@chabad.org]. Why? Because I share so many views in common with my Orthodox Jewish friends.

Grim,
Learn what context is and to whom the words are addressed.

Philo, I'm very well aware of what context is, and to whom the words were addressed.
Philo said: "No where did he tell all his followers to give up all their posessions."
Jesus said: if you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in Heaven. Then come, follow me".
He then went on to say:"I tell you the truth. It is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God".
Why is it Capitalists always ignore this passage?

Dear Grim and Philo,

Both of you may appreciate the following:

A man dies and goes to heaven.
Of course, St Peter meets him at
the Pearly Gates.

St Peter says: "Here's how it works.
You need 100 points to make it into
heaven. You tell me all the good things
you've done and I'll give you a certain
number of points for each item, depending
on how good it was. When you reach 100 points,
you get in."

"Okay," the man says. "I was married to the
same woman for 50 years and never cheated on
her, even in my heart."

"That's wonderful, that's worth 3 points."

"Three points! Well I attended church all my life
and supported its ministry."

"Terrific! One point."

"One point. Golly. How about this.
I started a soup kitchen in my city and worked
in a shelter for homeless veterans."

"Fantastic. That's good for two points."

"TWO POINTS!" the man cries.
"At this rate the only way I'll get into heaven
is by the Grace of God."

"Come on in!"

Dear Philo,

The Jews of Jesus' time put nobody to death as they were not in control. The country was occupied by the Roman authorities who had the power of life and death. Those who wrote the New Testament some years after the crucifixion did not want to blame the Romans as they looked to them for converts and the Romans were still in power so they blamed the Jews. Roman archives contradict the Bible which puts Pilate as a wishy-washy character. Pilate was one of the few Roman governors who was fired because of cruelty. That meant he was exceptionally cruel. The account of Jesus before the Sanhedrin is purely fiction. According to the Bible it took place at night, but the Sanhedrin did not meet at night. The messiah was supposed to bring an era of peace where the lion would lie down with the lamb and nations would 'study war no more.' Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophesy so he was not the Messiah. The New Testament is largely fiction, a propaganda document for the gullible.

Chabad is a fundamentalist Jewish sect which is as screwed up as other fundamentalists. It says little for them that you share many views with them.

The Bible is a book of legends which should be examined with a critical eye to the origin of those legends. It has been a most effective propaganda document.

Good one Foxy; I heard a similar one.
When the man walked up to the Pearly gates, Peter said "welcome friend; before I let you pass, tell me what you consider to be the best deed you ever performed."
The man thought for a second, then replied "well, there was this one time I saw a bunch of big hairy bikies picking on a little old woman, so I walked up to them and said 'hey, leave her alone!'"
Peter said "excellent! That's the sort of attitude we like around here. When did this happen?"
The man replied "Oh, about ten minutes ago, I think..."

david f,
On what grounds did the Romans put Jesus to death? Your claims are unfounded nonsense. The Romans had no cause to put him to death. The Sanhedrin did not meet as you suppose just some Jewish authorities who made accusation that Jesus was causing trouble.

What Roman archives do you read. I have copies of letters written by Herod and Pilate to Rome held by British Museum with notes by Justinus who was quoted by Josephus as being a historian at the time. Though Justinus does not mention Jesus the wtitings of Herod and Pilate do in their reports to Emperor Tiberius. Pilate is reported to have committed sucide for putting to death innocent persons when Tiberius sent a possy to have him brought back to Rome to answer for his actions.

Dear Philo,

If there was such a person as Jesus the biblical account has surrounded him with myth since the account contains many myths that were around at the time attributed to such pagan deities as Adonis and Apollo. The whole crucifixion may have been a made up story to conform to that of the many pagan deities who were reputed to be sacrificed and miraculously resurrected.

Anglican Bishop Spong has tried to strip Christianity of myth and retain some of its teachings of fellowship and love. Spong has recognised evil in Scripture.

From his website:
http://www.johnshelbyspong.com/bishopspongon_theTerribleTexts.aspx

RELIGIOUS BIGOTRY:

"No one comes to the Father but by me" (John 14:6)

This text has helped to create a world where adherents of one religion feel compelled to kill adherents of another. A veritable renaissance of religious terror now confronts us and is making against us the claims we have long made against religious traditions different from our own.

ANTI-SEMITISM:
And the people answered, 'His blood be on us and on our children'" (Matt. 27:25)

No other verse of Holy Scripture has been responsible for so much violence and so much bloodshed. People convinced that these words conferred legitimacy and even holiness on their hostility have killed millions of Jewish people over history. Far more than Christians today seem to understand, to call the Bible "Word of God" in any sense is to legitimize this hatred reflected in its pages.

SEXISM:

For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man." (1Cor. 8-9)
The message of the Christian church was once that women are evil to their core and it was built on the story of Eve. She was taken out of man and was not his equal, but his helpmeet. Evil entered human history through the weakness of the woman. She was made to bear the blame and the guilt. She was the source of death.

Rather than attack Catholics it might be well to realise how biblical myth has imprisoned you. Spong wrote, "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentaliam."

"Though Justinus does not mention Jesus..."
Yes, isn't it peculiar that a man who had (and still has) such an impact, wasn't noticed by any contemporary historians?
Almost miraculous...

An interesting thread, Foxy.

In response to your original idea:

When I taught literature and literary history at a state high school, I found myself spending a lot of time explaining religious principles to students so that they could understand the texts they were reading. This extended beyond the countless biblical references in canonical literature. For example, the theme of equivocation - prominent in Macbeth - needs to be explained with direct reference to the Jesuit endorsement of equivocation (the sin of a lie is in saying something that is untrue, rather than in deceiving someone through tricky words) in the early years of Protestant England. Modernism, Romanticism - many literary movements draw strongly on religion and new perspectives on old religious ideas.

In these cases, I taught religious beliefs in a sociological context. I didn't openly endorse them (if students asked me if I believed these things, I'd give an honest answer, but that was as far as it went) - I taught them as 'things some people believe'.

With religion playing a prominent role in society, I think it needs to be addressed in education, just as other ideologies are, in a sterile, 'social science' sort of way.

I have just been watching videos on the Classical period of China. It is worth a study. The Chinese language characters tell the story of the first 11 Chapters of Genesis in greater detail 2,000 years + BC and 800 before Moses wrote Genesis.

Much of the word character formation follows the Mesopotamian character. They claim Noah as their ancestor as the father of their ancestors. They worshipped the God of Noah until the time of Mencius 479 BC. The Chinese Classical literature they do not classify as myth but as their ancestral history.