"seizing weapons" - above

- Don't what neuron misfired. Should read, "seizing records".

Geoffey Robertson has suggested that the Pope be arrested during his planned trip to England. Relatedly:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gcxiBTY31XjpK5oDY9h3emUID9FwD9ESAVU80

Robertson argues that the Vatican is not a State because it was established by Mussolini outside international law. The Vatican counters that 179 have diplomatic relations and therefore the Pope would have soverveign immunity from crimes he committed, if he did commit a crime.

No-way can I see England arresting him. However, he could be denied entry as an undesirable in the first place. I wonder if the Haig could hear Robertson's case in absentia?

That's an interesting point that Dershowitz makes, Foxy,

>>Secondly there's the tradition of forgiveness. The previous Pope immediately forgave the assassin who tried to kill him.<<

Maybe he did.

But Mehmet Agca spent the next nineteen years in Rome's Rebibbia prison, having been convicted of his crime.

Forgiving is all very well. But without the appropriate punishment, it's all too convenient.

Dear Pericles,

The case of Mehmet Agca is a complicated one.
He's been released from the Turkish prison
in Ankara for separate crimes committed in
Turkey. Apparently he had received a life -
sentence, 36 years under Turkish law, for
murdering Abdi Ipekci in 1979. Mehmet Agca
escaped from a Turkish prison less than 6 months
into the sentence and shot the Pope in Rome 2 years
later.

He's still a very troubled individual. The following
website gives the story:

http://www.theledger.com/article/20100118/news/1185022?p=3&tc=pg

However, I doubt if the Pope held any responsibility for the
man's sentencing.

Here's one for Runner:

http://www.iinet.net.au/customers/news/articles/1038851.html
regarding sexual relations with 13 year olds.

Again, as said, as a young school boy I (&and my scaly mates) were all too keen for sexual relations with our Sister school girls, or any other girls for that matter, but being of an equivalent emotionally immature age, would this not only constitute a case of mutually consentual underage sexual relations?

Of course, were it a year 11 or 12 student with a year 8,9 or 10, perhaps some would argue otherwise.

And different cultures have different views on this and verily, I grew up in the Perth school environment commonly hearing the crude expression:

" Old enough to Bleed, Old enough to Butcher. "

Underage marriage is common here in Indonesia as is circumcision both of the males and the girls, though in the cases that I have examined, only the more prominent part of the clitoris is removed, still leaving a sensitive stub.

So dear *Boazy,* O ye who are overdue for a symbolic "Road to Damascus" experience, whilst I share something of your disgust in regards to this, not all female circumcision constitutes "genital mutilation."

Indeed, equally shocking to me was the fact that the girls remain largely clueless about all this, being too young to remember and not adequately educated about sexuality.

..

Oh and *Boazy,* they are here, now, with us, in this very thread, so if you and *Runner* wish to persist with your homophobic rants, do feel free to get it all off your chest in a more direct manner. I'm sure the fine minds present will assist in a positive and uplifting way to examining your views.

..

A word of Spiritual caution:

Are you so certain that you do not bare "False Witness" against those of the Gay persuasion?

AND

hold yourselves up to be more equal than others in the light of your "God Concept?"

..

Re arresting his popeiness, ABC reports that they are considering using the same mechanism that they used against Pinochet.

Hi Pericles,

"Unswerving loyalty, eh?"

Yes. I am sure they were thrilled to publish the article of that retired journalist. Do you doubt its content?

"But a good diversionary tactic..."

Not diversionary. No group (or individual) should be singled out and treated differently to all others. It is like taking a few criminals from one race and saying the entire race are bad while ignoring the fact that there are just as many criminals in other races.

It is a well distributed publication. But given the world's population it doesn't exactly cover the board and not all readers would read every article. Would it be fair to say that most people have never heard of that but you'd have to be just back from an extended vacation on Mars not to have been inundated with similar stories about the Catholic Church? Of course in the Catholic Church it is always about long past events.

I agree completely. Any remaining criminals should get their just deserts. Again:

"Nowadays, however, ecclesiastical superiors are proactive and move with alacrity when accusations are made. Some priests now feel authorities have moved too far toward the other end of the spectrum... the rights of accused priests are often 'overlooked or ignored', ...often not been given legal advice or experienced support persons. They were frequently cajoled into making admissions and agreeing to resign... Priests are assumed to be guilty, their rights to fairness and a presumption of innocence ignored, and they are dismissed from ministry by bishops or superiors without any legal process, often before they have been afforded the opportunity to defend themselves. Accused priests have been kept in the dark by bishops witholding accusations or aspects of accusations. There is confusion between what are actually 'boundary violations', that is consensual adult sexual encounters, and the sexual abuse of children, which falls under the jurisdictions of criminal and canon law...A similar situation has emerged in the UK where a church lawyer who defends accused priests said that 'bishops cannot be trusted to help priests accused of child abuse'"

Hi Foxy,

TY for providing Dershowitz’s comments.

Let's take the points one by one.

1. Confidentiality of Penitents - This should never be allowed to override the law of the land. This is why I have so much trouble with the confessional. Jesus in his teachings gave us the route to forgiveness...DIRECTLY TO GOD...THE LORD'S PRAYER...Luke 11:2-4"...forgive us our trespasses...(sins)..."...http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+11%3A2-4&version=NIV

Surely Catholics can see that the confessional puts a man in between God and the penitent but worse it puts a man, between a serious lawbreaker and the law. Priests forgiving priests and keeping child abuse a secret is outrageous.

2. Forgiveness...whilst a wonderful concept it is not for a priest to forgive. I can forgive Runner and Proxy for being misguided, but forgiveness of the abuse of innocent children, by a priest is unacceptable. The victim might choose to forgive the perpetrator but the Church doesn't need to be involved whatsoever. Either way we are talking about serious criminal conduct and forgiveness given by priests to paedophiles who in the past go unpunished.

3. Sorry but the Church in "seeing itself" as a state, it is putting itself above the law. What would motivate them to do this? Jesus subjected himself to the law and was crucified because of the Pharisees misrepresentation of the law.

4. The Vatican's priding itself on moving slowly has proven now to be a false pride. We are talking about children who have been tragically harmed and through the Vatican's pride have suffered unimaginable hurt through ongoing cover-ups. Not very Christian one would think. It's like Jesus touching a person's eyes and saying "Your sins are forgiven, you will have your sight back in 20-30 years, maybe."

5. Now "internal due process" seems to be a contradiction. If priests were moved from one parish to another there was no due process. Isn't doing little at a snail's pace when innocent child members of the Churches congregation are being harmed and more are being put at risk like Pontius Pilate washing his hands? I can't accept the internal due process argument whatsoever.

Continued....