DreamOn,

“I must admit I find your constant tirade of denial and obfuscation to be an amusing indication of an organisation that in its leadership is largely rotten to the core, *mjbp*”

My denial has substance. By contrast you are in denial. The message you put forward is that the leadership ,in particular Pope Benedict, is part of the problem and that there is an ongoing proliferation of paedophile priests.

This contrasts with the reality that:

http://catholicanchor.org/wordpress/?p=601
“When the competency was changed to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in my observation as well as many of my canonical colleagues, sexual abuse cases were handled expeditiously, fairly, and with due regard to the rights of all the parties involved. I have no doubt that this was the work of then Cardinal Ratzinger.”

As head of the Divine Congregation of Faith the current Pope changed the policy on dealing with these matters and had them all immediately referred to the Congregation to handle so that they get actioned quickly. Previously uprooting offenders was the responsibility of the local Bishop. Then Cardinal Ratzinger changed the rules to make it easier to immediately defrock priests. He broadened definitions to increase power to prosecute. In 2001 he made it mandatory to report allegations to the police. As a Pope he has repeatedly apologized for the sins of the past and verbally expressed the commitment demonstrated in his actions to “sweep the filth” from the Church. He has been described as the "most reactive and proactive of any international church official in history with regard to the scourge of clergy sexual abuse of minors."

A zero tolerance of paedophilia allegations was adopted and policies to assist the past victims of abuse were conceived and implemented. These include an apology, free counselling, independent investigation, and compensation. People wanting to become priests are psychologically screened to try to avoid the entry of those who may be or become paedophiles.

CONT

Paul Collins advises that:

"Nowadays, however, ecclesiastical superiors are proactive and move with alacrity when accusations are made. Some priests now feel authorities have moved too far toward the other end of the spectrum... the rights of accused priests are often 'overlooked or ignored', ...often not been given legal advice or experienced support persons. They were frequently cajoled into making admissions and agreeing to resign... Priests are assumed to be guilty, their rights to fairness and a presumption of innocence ignored, and they are dismissed from ministry by bishops or superiors without any legal process, often before they have been afforded the opportunity to defend themselves. Accused priests have been kept in the dark by bishops witholding accusations or aspects of accusations. There is confusion between what are actually 'boundary violations', that is consensual adult sexual encounters, and the sexual abuse of children, which falls under the jurisdictions of criminal and canon law...A similar situation has emerged in the UK where a church lawyer who defends accused priests said that 'bishops cannot be trusted to help priests accused of child abuse'"

“As is the case with war crimes and crimes against humanity, if it was my decision there would be no limitation on crimes again children either.”

Oh yes and he has demonstrated a willingness to waive limitations to enable prosecutions. (Thanks)

It beggars belief that you see the Pope as part of the problem rather than a very large part of the solution.

”There remains serious allegations that ratsinger in particular is the architect of the "cover up and denial" program of crime/s against children.”

Which are clearly false as discussed.

The actions of the Pope should provide increased confidence in the Church but instead the media take a different approach:
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/how_the_nazis_engineered_a_paedophile_priests_scare/

with of course Dawkins and Hitchens using it to further their cause.

However the underrepresentation of paedophiles in the priesthood even during the ‘surge’ from the 60s to the 80s offers us no comfort. This betrayal of children and the Church is intolerable and one of the worst demonstrations of the “judas factor” since Judas himself.

CONT

The tragedies that occurred are a very grave evil according to the beliefs of the Church and should not occur particularly in the clergy. That and concern for the victims horrifies Catholics and is likely the reason the current Pope feels so strongly about it that he speaks so strongly about it.

We believe that: "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." and people who are supposed to dedicate their lives to bringing Jesus to all and who received enormous trust are the last people that that type of thing can be tolerated from irrespective of their proportion in the priesthood.

We believe that priests should be “eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom of heaven” not interfering with kids.

We believe that Bishops should look after the flock’s well being not cast the children to the wolves.

Ultimately, no matter what is done, the Judas factor will always exist in some shape of form. But according to Jesus the gates of hell won’t prevail against the Church so contrary to your opinion Christians maintain their faith.

While his armies swept victoriously through European countries Napoleon reportedly said to Church officials “I will destroy your Church!” Cardinal Consalvi of the papal court reportedly responded with the words "He will never succeed. We have not managed to do it ourselves!"

As Consalvi and the current Pope acknowledge members of the Church have done great wrongs but others do great rights. Christians ask that our beliefs are not judged by those who fail to follow the teachings but by those that do.

You can choose to consider the clergy to be “slime” and consider that stories about Jesus are “fables”. However I will continue to differ (for most clergy).

Those who attempt to heal the sick often do it in Catholic hospitals and those who feed the poor often do it through Catholic (and not uncommonly Protestant Christian) charities.

Mjpb...The majority of Catholics/Christians are basically good people.

Isn't it the handling of the alleged abuses within the organisation that is in question?

And not just the Catholic Church but ALL organizations, even though this thread’s title only mentions the Catholic Church.

Aren't ALL organisations supposedly answerable to criminal law? Does the Belgium intervention make this more likely?

Why do so many of these cases end up in the courts and why so many lawyers...if Churches are doing the right things? Did Jesus have a lawyer?

When I asked "Wouldn't this give their (the churches) congregations a new lease on life?"

You replied...."Don't be silly. The media would still be digging for older dirt if they have to go back 100 years or failing that rehashing"...etc.

Do you now blame the media?.....Do you really think that is the media's motive?

If as alleged in many articles, the Churches have maintained secrecy, allegedly covering up allegations of serious crime.....why shouldn't our authorities copy the Belgium action?

An array of worldwide sources have been presented. Are you saying, all are wrong other than those written by Catholics?

If any of what this article alleges is true, should you reconsider your posts?

http://tinyurl.com/286383u

Does Matthew 18:6 http://tinyurl.com/248hskd apply to Church organisations?

Did Churches allegedly move alleged offending priests from parish to parish?....Did Churches allegedly cover up crimes against children?

If so, how does that demonstrate the churches following "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones...?

http://tinyurl.com/debdwb

If the above is correct does Matthew 7:18 "....neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit" apply to organisations?

Are organisations that cover-up allegations of crime corrupt?

I am tired of this topic....

I applaud the Belgium Police for taking the initiative, and now that it is under independent investigation, by the proper authorities, hopefully all the perpetrators will be charged and all the victims will get help.

Is this article concerning?

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/03/16/vatican.exorcist.devil/index.html

How are other church officials being tested?

“Even when he was railing against Christianity, Hitler never ceased using the language of Providence: ...‘I believe it was God's will...'”

"Hitler opposed the institutional church, may possibly have remained a believing Christian and almost certainly believed in a supernatural power. There is no reason to think he was an atheist..”

There are issues with taking his public speeches at face value as we have discussed. Nevertheless the apparently open question of his atheism remains.

I believe his privately expressed attitudes are more helpful on that question. According to Traudl Junge his personal secretary:

"Sometimes we also had interesting discussions about the church and the development of the human race. Perhaps its going too far to call them discussions, because he would begin explaining his ideas when some question or remark from one of us had set them off, and we just listened. He was not a member of any church, and thought the Christian religions were outdated, hypocritical institutions that lured people into them. The laws of nature were his religion. He could reconcile his dogma of violence better with nature than with the Christian doctrine of loving your neighbour and your enemy. 'Science isn't yet clear about the origins of humanity,' he once said. 'We are probably the highest stage of development of some mammal which developed from reptiles and moved on to human beings, perhaps by way of the apes. We are a part of creation and children of nature, and the same laws apply to us as to all living creatures. And in nature the law of the struggle for survival has reigned from the first. Everything incapable of life, everything weak is eliminated. Only mankind and above all the church have made it their aim to keep alive the weak, those unfit to live, and people of an inferior kind.'
Until the final hour p 108.

Junge's claims about Hitler's privately expressed beliefs do seem very compatible with his actions.

I bet you weren't expecting that answer...

Sorry wrong forum. I have multiple windows open at once and didn't realise that this one was open. I just brought forward an olo window and clicked on new post.