Whoa mjpb,

WOW...using Moses to justify the confessional?....Is this the Moses who:

Deuteronomy 22:28-29...says the sin of raping a virgin can be washed away as long as the man pays the father fifty shekels of silver?...http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2022:28-29&version=KJV

NUMBERS 31:13-19...where he orders the killing of all women and boys but his soldiers can keep the virgins and girls for themselves?...http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=NUMBERS%2031:13-18&version=KJV

Moses wasn't a nice man!

When you quote Numbers 14:19-23 & Numbers 16:46-48 it isn't justifying the confessional.

Numbers 14:19-23...http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%2014:19-23&version=KJV

Numbers 16:46-48...http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%2016:46-48&version=KJV

Wasn't the confessional created as a mechanism of control, by allowing priests...(using Moses-like threats)...to know what was going on in the community?

Surely God would be smart enough to know that putting it in the hands of man it would be misused?....Or isn't he that smart?

I'll let this site argue the Peter was the first Pope question....http://www.bible.ca/cath-peter=pope.htm

Now your quoting John 20:23 was a good selection except it doesn't justify the confessional...surely GOD/JESUS would have mentioned the confessional more precisely...they/he/she/it knows all things past, present and future.

And if any of what this link alleges is true...the confessional came about much later than Peter...and wasn't it misused very early on?...http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/380995.html

But I gather priests...(who have committed these crimes)...have also had the power to hear confessions and have also forgiven people's sins...How does that work?

If the above article is correct and if you answer Yes to the above question hasn't the confessional got a lot to answer for?

I don't agree that questions about the confessional have been answered...but run if you must...lol

What do you say about Papal Infallibilty?

The Catholics say under the heading of The Pope quite a deal....http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm#IIIB and doesn't the Catholic Encyclopaedia make this a falsehood?

Here's one Pope's alleged infallibility...JOHN XII (956-64)...http://www.ftarchives.net/foote/crimes/c7.htm

or the Catholic view....http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08426b.htm

Do Catholics know the history of the Popes?

Is remaining "in the church" if so many crimes against children have been allegedly covered up..."tacit approval"?

I'd be the first to leave any organisation that covered up crime!

This alleged victim in the USA asks a very pertinent question...http://blogs.alternet.org/cityofangelsonalternet/2010/03/11/the-catholic-church-just-got-away-with-50-years-of-sex-crimes-against-children/

What do you say to this?

Why do people persist in this religious nonsense. Surely in this day and age it is obvious to everyone it's a load of crap. Read all the history of the bible which is simply a mishmash of gospels written 50 years after the events. A lot of them are missing after constantines spin doctor left them out and no doubt altered others to suit their purposes. Some are obviously made up particularly the miracles.
There is no god , jesus existed but so what. When your dead you'll never know you were alive. Your dead for good. 'For no man lives forever and dead men rise up never.......' Get over it.
And priests didn't have sex with boys,they raped them. There was no consent. exterminate.....exterminate....

I had an interesting discussion about this subject with my Irish brother-in-law last week- he is a psychiatric nurse who has worked in Irish mental hospitals for more than 40 years.

Ireland (Southern Republic of Ireland) is about the most Catholic country I have ever been to. Right up until a few years ago there was no divorce, single-mothers (they gave up children for adoption), contraception or abortion legally allowed in that country.

My brother-in-law says he worked with psychiatric patients who were sexually abused as children. Most of the mentally disturbed patients he cared for had been sexually abused by someone.

There were patients who had been abused by priests, but the bulk of the patients, by far, had been abused in the family home- or in another relatives home- by male relatives.

Unless a male relative had died and his wife married again, stepfathers or 'mummies boyfriends' weren't that common.
You didn't get to have sex much unless you were married!

How were these paedophiles 'encouraged' to take up that behaviour?
They were all supposed to be living with their wives and family in a God-fearing strict Catholic society. They weren't celibate.

Were these paedophiles born with that deviation, or was it 'learned' when they were abused by relatives as kids themselves?
I believe they were born with some sort of genetic or chemical imbalance.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Thursday, 8 April 2010 8:27:53 AM

" ... Some people take whatever they can get, it's not about orientation. ... "

Some memories ..

prayer can be a very soothing .. and if one were to say bathe themselves in a concept of say Luv UnConditional in the 1st instance, Forgiving and being Forgiven, Accepting and being Accepted ..

a plutonic caress, a kiss on the hand, and the fire of intamacy is quickly lit ..

and I recall being a 13 year old school boy softly groaning inwardly at the gentle brush of the hair of one the girls and her fragrant odour as she flitted by ..

So why is it now as a "mature" adult I and others choose not sate our desire purely on the lustre of young firm flesh, albeit emotionally immature, whereas others clearly do?

mjpb

Claimed:

>>> Confession isn't like the Catholic jokes suggest. It doesn't sound like a genuine confession. <<<<

This is sounding rather like the argument used by many Christians on this forum, that if a Christian commits a crime they aren't really a true Christian.

And then mjpb goes on to say:

>>> Although I don't believe the priest hearing the confession is empowered to make that assessment. <<<

I would point out that in all matters of crime and psychological illness, no priests are empowered to make such assessments - that's why we have a system of law, law enforcers, psychiatrists, doctors and so on.

Paedophile priests are criminals and the Church's attempts to cover up their behaviour is aiding and abetting the criminal.

Suzie, "Were these paedophiles born with that deviation, or was it 'learned' when they were abused by relatives as kids themselves? "

I suspect that social conditions have impacted a lot. I don't think any single factor explains the whole picture but there are things which can be done to reduce the risks.

My understanding is that the worst of the abuse happened many years ago and there were a lot of aspects which might have contributed to individuals making very bad choices.

From what I understand the church dominated most aspects of life. Schooling was predominately church schooling, almost everyone attended church, other than drinking and work most other social structures revolved around the church. Those leading the church (and in most significant roles) were people sworn to celibacy with little genuine opportunity for intimacy in their lives. There was significant pressure in some families for people to enter the church as it brought some prestige to the family.

It's not a big stretch to assume that many of those who had teaching and or pastoral roles in the church and church schools (the main points of formal teaching) had some significant personal issues regarding sexuality.

I don't know how universal it was but there was certainly some teaching that sex was for procreation and was otherwise to some degree dirty. Access to contraception was limited and if it was available there may have been a good chance that an adult partner would have been unwilling to use it.

Having sex with an adult partner of the opposite gender could all to easily lead to another mouth to house and feed at a time when Southern Ireland was very poor by European standards.

Access to pornography was extremely limited.

Heavy drinking appears to have been widely accepted.

All in all a very potent mix for creating a lot of sexual frustration and very mixed up values. None of that excuses individuals from sexually abusing children but it does create an environment where the risks are increased significantly.

R0bert