Dear Geoffrey,

I'm not a "he."

I'm actually a female.
Born in Australia, - of Lithuanian ancestry.
My parents came to this country in 1949 - fleeing
communism. They were displaced people, refugees -
who worked hard, raised their children - (all
university educated), and made their home here.

The reasons I cannot support the current Liberal Party
are many, but basically the words of the former Liberal
PM - The Rt. Hon. Malcolm Fraser sums up the situation
rather well:

" I remember the Party I joined, the Party of Menzies,
of liberal and progressive ideas, a forward-looking Party,
willing to make experiments, as Menzies himself put it,
a Party that believed fervently in the Rule of Law, in
higher education accessible to all able students, in a
Government accepting national obligations and a vision for
the future ... a Party of hope and of vision ...

The departures from the principles underlying that Liberal
Party today - are substantial and serious.

The Liberal Party has become a Party of fear and reaction.

It is conservative and not liberal. It has allowed and
some would say promoted race and religion to be part of today's
agenda. I find it unrecognisable as Liberal..."

As I wrote in a post to your friend Mr Tapp,
what you or he, or I think, doesn't make an ounce of
difference to the broader picture. The voters
will decide who they want running this country.
And, as Peter Costello believed - the voters get
it right in the end.

See you on another thread!

Foxy, I must apologise for getting your gender wrong. But I don’t think I got your politics wrong. Only the most naïve people believe that the Liberal Party is truly liberal in the sense you use, the socialist sense. That does not mean that the Liberal Party is not progressive. It is conservative and I believe in conservative govt. I also detest socialism. I also despise communism.

As Winston Churchill said “Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” He fought socialism all his life. He fought Hitler, a socialist, and Lenin, a communist. Your family fled communism and came top Australia, a democratic constitutional monarchy. Why? Can I guess that you are a republican?

I know you are a socialist because of your socialist arguments. You quote socialist (or communist) references including GreenLeft, the SMH and crikey.com. None of them are friends of the Liberal Party.

And true to form you refuse to give a reference for your silly statement about deaths in Australian mines, 144 to date! I bet you hate nuclear power, the safest and cleanest of all power sources. But brown coal is still the cheapest, and Howard would not beggar the Australian economy by destroying our God-given advantages to satisfy the socialists.

By the way, I also feel sorry for Fraser. He failed as a PM despite having the greatest mandate of all time, and he supported Mugabe.

Dear Geoffrey,

I actually don't consider myself
as being either right or left -
socialist or conservative. More of
a centrist.

I find that the tag "socialist"
is bandied around too often. The word is
normally used in a hostile sense with a
sub-text of not very flattering connotations.

In actuality - there are very divergent forms
of socialism in the modern world - those
practiced in authoritarian communist-ruled
societies (like those that used to exist in
Eastern Europe and Asia), and those practiced
in democratic, pluralist societies, mostly in
Western Europe. These versions differ or differed
markedly in their degree of centralized control of
the economy, and in the liberties their citizens enjoy.

Many of the countries of Western Europe, such as
Denmark, or Austria, practice one form or another
of democratic socialism, a political and economic
system that aims to preserve individual freedom in the
context of social equality achieved through a
centrally planned economy.

I tend to select websites for my posts - on the
basis of their content - not their political
affiliation.

I gave several websites - including the Sydney Morning
Herald - and I quoted Malcolm Fraser - because he's a
man that I do admire - as is John Hewson.

Anyway, for me this discussion has run its course.
I don't think I have anything more to add.

As I've stated previously - it should be an interesting
year ahead of us.

Miacat; I agree that the Rudd team has done an average to reasonable performance all things considered....

Tell me you're kidding!

Appart from wasting billions of dollars, money that was 'in the bank' they have not done anything that they havn't completely stuffed up, have they?

The whole point is that if someone doesn't take the cheque book away from these incompitent ecconomy managers, there will simply be no ecconomy to manage.

All they can say is that Australia faired better than most. Of cause we did, we had money in the bank!

Normally one would have to be in office for decades to stuff so many projects up, but this clown and his minders have succedded in a little more than two years. Not even one full term.

Solar, insulation, copenhagen, boat people, stimulis...... where is it going to stop?

Foxy, as you are so hell bent on supporting the unions and the labor party, do you feel that Peter Garrets 'inaction' has contributed to the financial heartbreak of the industry and the deaths of one or more young lives?

Simply Yes, or No!

If yes, should he be sacked for his inaction?

Now, if he were a company director, or a CEO of a public company, would you expect him to be sacked?

Foxy, you can describe yourself any way you like, centrist, socialist, liberal, who cares. You are what you are and you will be judged as such. For instance, I have described myself as a capitalist and I despise socialism. I bet most contributors on this forum have an inkling of my politics.

On the other hand, you have described yourself as a university graduate. Therefore, before you retreat, could you please give me a reference for the statistics you quoted earlier, that in the history of Australia only 144 people have died in mining accidents, and one more death was added in Tasmania.

As I told you, Melbourne University taught in 1964 that we as a community were directly killing 260 Australians a year in mining fossil fuels. That is 2,600 a decade and more than four decades have passed. This nation has supervised the deaths of more than 10,000 citizens employed in the coal industry because the socialists won’t even discuss nuclear power, recognised for over fifty years as the cleanest and safest fuel.

That is the legacy of ALP supporters. If you have voted for Labor, you are one of the guilty ones.

Please have the decency to quote your source for the 144 deaths.

As I said at the outset, I love it when you socialists scream advice at my side of politics and give us the benefit of your sage advice. It means that you are running scared. And I LOVE it.

Geoffrey Kelley

Miacat agree's with my original proposition. Get over it rehctub. And you certainly have a knack for concentrating on the small picture.

You continue with common myth that Liberals manage the economy better. Modern history proves that this is a false notion because the big economic decisions were made by Keating.

If you mean allowing business to charge what it likes for goods and services whilst making workers scrabble for what they can get, they certainly did that. It is the policies of the previous Govt that are responsible for utility,communication and power prices rising way beyond inflation without rhyme or reason today. Rudd has failed by not reversing the damage, but the Govt has had a lot on it's plate.

Let's have a poll to see who thinks that "the Rudd Govt has done a reasonable job all things considered". Lets ask that question using those words and you may get an idea just how much traction Abbott and Co are getting with their knock and block campaign.

The electors won't allow a majority in both houses however because the Howard Govt stuffed that for all time when it revealed it's true character by introducing Workchoices in a rush of blood to a swollen head.

The "money in the bank" to which you refer was acquired through the sale of taxpayers valuable profitable assets. It is identical to selling the house you own and then renting it off the person you sold it too. Very clever economics.

They then shamelessly used the taxpayers money to pork barrel in marginal electorates and were criticised by treasury for tax cuts and against the judgement of their own treasurer Costello.

By standing down Costello shows that he is a principled man. As does Malcolm Turnbull by crossing the floor. Your heroes are wearing the black hat rehctub.