You're getting weirder, Herman.

Just so you know, "NCIS" is fiction. I agree that it's not very good.

CJ Grogan,

That was my point.
Your attempt to obfuscate the issue by generalising Islamic fundamentalism
into "religious fundamentalism of all kinds" is also a fiction.
Not all kinds of religious fundamentalists try to bring down passenger airplanes in the name of their God.
Or mutilate the genitalia of their victims before murdering them in the name of their God.
Or push disabled people in wheelchairs off passenger liners in the name of their God.
Or behead captives on the internet in the name of their God.
Etc.
No CJ, it takes a unique strand of religious fundamentalism to perpetrate these horrors
and Foxy has accurately identified it.

A weird tag coming from you, I wear as a badge of honour.

At least we can agree that NCIS is not very good.

A few of my comments from 1995 here:

First of all let me make clear that the massive immigration of Muslims to the West is a new phenomena that has only occurred in the last generation. Prior to the 1960s when immigrants came from Muslim countries, it was mostly Christians escaping discrimination they suffered under Islam.

Understand also that the rules have changed - 100 years ago a family would move and they had to integrate. Now with multiculturalism, welfare and technology, this is different. A group can live, work, worship and even hate, and live side by side with another group. When people praise past immigration (as in the US or Australia) they are talking about a world that no longer exists.

Welfare now makes immigrants independent of work and responsibility. Multiculturalism makes them immune from OFFICIAL criticism and discourages integration. Modern technology means they can live in the West like they never left home (and even eat their favorite Pakistani dishes or watch their favorite Imam in Old Arabia on TV telling them to hate the infidels). It is a whole new world. The effects of globalism, new communication technology and mass migrations are so many and so deep that they are beyond any individual's understanding. This is a dangerous mixture one day and it will explode.

The fact is that things will get worse. Muslims cannot integrate and live side by side (in numbers) with other people, and still be good Muslims. Read the Quran and the hadiths. They are very clear as to the preferred relationship between Muslims and infidels. When the number of Muslims reaches a certain level they will start their jihad. In fact, some consider immigration to be a low level jihad. First it will be just demands, then a little crime, then more demands, then fights, then a riot, then murders, and then more riots and finally full-scale war. Yes there are good Muslims, but not enough to make a difference. Most of them are indifferent and/or in denial, so the radicals will win, as they always do in Islamic societies.

Kactuz

Dear Herman Yutic,

There's a few points that need clarification:

Firstly, fundamentalists explain reality by
blaming social problems on the departure from
religious morality and promise redemption via
a return to old traditions.

The basis of support for radical Islamic
fundamentalism can't be discovered only in the
religious doctrine. That's an over simplification.
We also need to look at the social conditions
of the region.

Part of the problems are tied with
the desperate searching on the part
of the oppressed masses for a way out of the hell of
poverty, hunger, unemployment, disease - and as
history has shown - in the absence of worldly
salvation many seek solace in religion.

Also, the US Government has a long and bloody history of
dominating and exploiting the people and resources of
the Middle East. Egypt would never challenge Washington
because of Washington's $2 billion annual bribe -
officially called - "financial aid."

We need to look at the histories of the countries
to understand the context of what's happening
there today and why.

As I mentioned in an earlier post -
1) limits to modernity 2) religious conservatism 3) resentment
of Western influences are all difficult hurdles to overcome.

Underdevelopment and the lack of basics such as clean
drinking water, sewerage, electricity, proper housing,
education, health facilities et cetera , all play a big
part. Shanty towns with horrific living conditions -
are a part of the urban scene in these areas. Between
1982 - 1992 the population of Pakistan was given as having
grown by 33% while the basic facilities grew by only 6.9%

As I also stated earlier - to begin to solve the
problems - we need to address their roots.

Blaming only religion - is a narrow and limited concept -
and doesn't look at the broader picture of the social
conditions of the region.

Here I too become a little weird C J Morgan, not in the Herman mold, but I agree with the directions of Kactus,s post.
Lets get to the bones here.
I find all forms of fundamentalism threatening.
I can say that about Christians and only be condemned to a non existent hell.
Some Muslims however would call for my death.
Christians, note the catholic church have far too much influence on governments.
Some Muslim country's, increasingly, the government and religion are the same.
Why should we mixed up humans bend to ANY creed?
We teach evolution , most do believe in it, yet give a special protection to an idea most of us do not share.
Mankind is growing More independent from mythology Gods that never existed.
But we tip toe around this issue, education, the very seed that aloes man to grow, is controlled most in Muslim country's.

*Shanty towns with horrific living conditions -
are a part of the urban scene in these areas*

Hang on Foxy, shanty towns etc also exist in India
and many other places, which have not produced
religious fundamentalism. If you go to the ME
gulf states, its not Arabs doing the work, but
cheap labour from India, Indonesia, Bangaladesh.

The difference today is that there is huge money
in the ME. Go back 50 years and most of these
people still lived in tents etc. Whatever
religious beliefs they had, they had no money
to implement them.

Not so today. Bin Laden inherited a couple of
hundred million $, enough to follow his cause
with $. Zawahiri is a surgeon from Egypt, he
was not poor.

It is also a Muslim duty to give money to charity.
Much of that is channeled to fundamentalist groups.
So money is the big driver that has enabled
Islamic fundamentalism to flourish.