I am a little puzzled by the issues here.

Extradition to another country without evidence being presented and tested is without doubt a highly dubious practice.

At its most ferocious we have extraordinary rendition, with the objective to outsource the extraction of information through torture.

And there is I guess a scale of such practices, with the Gary McKinnon case as well as the "NatWest three" making their appearances at some point along the line.

So it is not at all difficult to have sympathy with the underlying legal issue: the laws governing the bilateral extradition arrangements between the UK and the USA are way, way out of balance.

That is shameful, Mr Brown.

But I am finding it really, really hard to find the appropriate spot for this specific case on my sympathometer.

The Howes position seems not to be "we never dunnit, yeronna", which would in my view put them right up there with the renditions, morally speaking.

But the tack seems to be "yes, we did it, but we never sold drugs online we sold Legal chemicals for amateur pyrotechnic use still legal in most of the world"

Which to a man on a galloping horse looks like an admission to the main game, but with a "we didn't know it was wrong" caveat tacked on the back.

So while I hope the extradition process gets into balance real-quick, for the sake of equity of handling, I can't really see this situation being particularly useful as a case study.

Sad about the kids, but.

Fractelle says. in her post of Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 12:24:25 PM:

"[I] am still not convinced that the Howes situation
is relevant to the Australian system of justice.
Whereas, the case of Leach and Brennan most clearly
is and germaine to the general theme of your topic
which is about an apparent miscarriage of justice."

I am glad of your (and others') interest in this topic, but this topic is NOT about the miscarriage of justice, it is about the wholesale abandonment of judicial process in the UK and Australia where extradition requests from the US are concerned. This wholesale abandonment of due process means that every UK and Australian citizen stands at risk of arbitrary detention without charge, let alone trial, whwenever the US chooses to say so. The Howes' are simply real people around whom the consequences of this abdication, on the parts of the Brown and Howard governments respectively, from the upholding of due process of law, and the protections of the law, which every citizen is entitled to expect, has crystallised.

There has as yet been no justice to miscarry.

The Howes' problem is of an entire order of magnitude greater than that of the case of Leach and Brennan. The latter have at least been charged with something. In due course they will have the benefit of a proper trial in their own country. In the mean time they are at liberty on bail. Brian Howes, on the other hand was arrested on the strength of a US extradition request and remanded in custody WITHOUT CHARGE for 214 days, from which custody he was only released to house arrest after a suspected brain-damaging hunger strike. In all he has lost his liberty for three years WITHOUT CHARGES EVER HAVING BEEN LAID.

It happened to him. It could happen to you.

Far from being irritated at your raising of the Leach and Brennan matter, I would have welcomed it, and probably supported your position so far as you have revealed it. Sadly, I cannot pursue that here at the Howes' expense.

I too think you have it right Fractelle about your other thread it shames us but is best in another thread.
3 years without trial?
Clearly not right, if we, America, England, Australia want to fight drugs why are they as easy to get as Lolly's on and city street?

Forrest

I can understand your concerns regarding extradition if there is insufficient evidence. I am not au fait with the extradition agreement between the US and the UK, nor am I knowledgeable about arrangements between the US and Australia.

I just find your choice of the Howes case to be a controversial example of the "abandonment of judicial process". For one, I am not fully convinced that judicial process has been abandoned in this case, in addition the materials that the Howes sell, are of such an ambiguity one would've expected the Howes to determine whether such sales were legal in countries like the US. For example, one cannot import Nembutal from Mexico, where it is sold legally within the country but not outside its borders.

As for the possibility of detention without charge - this can happen already right here in the land of Aus due to the terrorist laws that were legislated during the Howard governance and continue to date.

Brian,
I presume nothing in this case per se. I do *speculate* on possible scenarios and international reasoning.

Ignorance is no excuse under the law. "Sorry your honour I didn't know it was illegal" or "it's only two out of many chemicals" (your response to Belly) when what it interprets as 'sorry your honour I didn't know he was a DEA agent and it would come to this.'

As for the suffering of your children I agree with you that it's tragic but irrelevant to your innocence/guilt, a consequence of your choice to go that route.
Perhaps the legal process could have been sped up.

Like I said this isn't Australia's problem regardless how much we as individuals might empathise with the you, your family because of the consequences.

Realistically it's overly optimistic of you thinking that you pick a non involved jurisdiction, especially given what the US believes is it at stake.

I would suggest that your trial will be as fair as the US can make it if only because of the publicity.

Mr Howes, is it true that you avoided prosecution 10 years ago for the alleged sexual abuse of a six year old girl in Arkansas, as reported in the UK Sunday Mail on June 21 this year?

<< Drugs probe extradition Scot accused of sex attacks on six-year-old girl

A SCOT fighting extradition to the US over a drug racket probe is also accused of sex attacks on a young girl there.

Dad-of-seven Brian Howes will face charges over the alleged abuse if he is ordered to go to America.

He dodged prosecution 10 years ago by moving from his home in Arkansas to Oklahoma.

The 44-year-old later moved to Middlesbrough where a judge branded him "a real and continuing danger to young girls".

Howes, 44, and wife Kerry Anne, 30, are accused of exporting chemicals from Scotland to be used in the US to make outlawed drug crystal meth.

They were arrested in a police raid at their home in Bo'ness, West Lothian, after a probe by America's Drug Enforcement Administration.

An Edinburgh sheriff ruled they should be extradited but the couple are appealing. They face up to 20 years in prison if convicted.

The sex allegations surfaced more than 10 years ago and the girl, now 21, who made them was taken into care. >>

http://tiny.cc/uZZa2