OUG,

The Bible is an unreliable source of information as it so flawed. I have demonstrated it time and again.

That is why I asked the question...where does your creationist model come from. I placed above where you called yourself a creationist!

Creationism comes from the dusty old religious books, written in far less enlightened times, where people tried to make sense of what was happening in the world around them. Man slotted GOD into the equation to fill in the gaps. Man again is slipping GOD into the equation to fill the holes of scientific theories.

That's why man invented GOD! In Moses' case he used GOD to justify all manner of ugly deeds and to introduce all manner of ugly laws.

I'll list them if you like!

My proof that GOD can't create a new species is simple...If he could he would. Why is he allowing us humans to slowly cause the extinction of so many of his wonderful designs? Why doesn't he stop us. His inaction is mindnumbingly dumb!

I agree that some science teachers teach theory as fact... and of course that is wrong. However, most science teachers always started saying "the theory of evolution". I have never heard a creationist say "the theory of creationism"...have you?

Finally how can you say that "only GOD is perfect" I see no evidence whatsoever of his/her/it's perfection.

Squeers you attack on blackwattle was a little harsh. You seem to forget that personal experience is also a valuable scientific tool..the power of observation.

For example I had a near death experience...I can't reproduce scientifically the exact experience, but I know I had one. It was nothing like one that many others have had. Does a scientist know more about my experiences than me?

I have had other experiences as well...they weren't brought about by some overpaid psychic...or some mental illness or some chemical imbalances in my body, they just happened.

Are my experiences or Blackwattle's experiences invalid in your scientific methodology?

Your lack of an experience doesn't mean the experience didn't happen...It just didn't happen to you!

Tell me Squeers, seeing your such an expert and critic on other people,
and their character based on assumptions with no basis or facts.
My comments are my own, i neither seek or ask for your advice, i do not care what your views or opinions are, because your a legend in your own lunch box son.
Had it not been for your insulting behaviour i may have shared my experiences and knowledge.
Tell me, for one that assumes such authority.
Are you a scientist.
A physicist.
An academic.
Debate over.

Opinionated2,
I don't think I've been harsh if all the posts are read in context. And I can assure you that I don't lack experience, indeed that I have had many "experiences" of my own that I can't begin to explain, which influence my thinking. And I don't "forget that personal experience is also a valuable scientific tool", though I would prefer to call it radical data. But "the power of observation" is only as good as the scrutiny it is subjected to. What are we to make of personal experience that defies explanation? Be grateful, yes, but treat it as "evidence" on which to build a cosmology? Certainly we don't dismiss such experiences, but if they continue to defy explanation they defy it! We don't then leap to conclusions. I've had some particular experiences that I've been trying to understand for decades, and I have elaborate hypothetical models by which I have tried to explain them. Without giving you the premise I can tell you for instance that I suspect that "everything in our apparently chronologically linear lives has already happened. It just hasn't happened yet". I can explain my sense of this statement, but it is based on subjective experience of the kind we are talking about and unprovable (so far). I therefore keep it as a pet theorem that I cannot validate for myself. So how can I foist it on any body else? Thank heavens life contains these poignant mysteries! But it's the leaping to conclusions that we have to be wary of. I "suspect" a great deal, but I have no way of "knowing" (and neither does anyone else) and refuse to take a leap of faith.
So sorry, mystical experiences "have" happened to me. I just haven't built them up into doctrine.
Apologies if I've given offence, Blackwattle, but I hope I've made you think it over a little more.

Squeers, no apology is needed, we are dealing with a highly emotive subject, people are murdering one another all over the planet in the course of God and Religion.
I agree with you as far as personal experience is concerned, one has to exercise great care with who one discuss's these types of subjects with.
I look upon those incidents as teaching tools, allowing insight into other realities.
We can read all the books in the world, but there comes a time when we have after great thought, look at
what are we going to accept as truth.
One mystical experience i had which was from within did not require analysis, again its very difficult to place into words, "why" because language is inadequate, i simply new what came to me as truth.
I will say this and i may get castigated for it, nothing to do with religion, spirituality weeeeell yes?
I accept without doubt, that you and i and the other 6 billion people on this planet are all divine manifestations, now thats my view and i'm sticking to it.
Now i am really out on a limb.

ERROR ABOVE:

Should be: “What I find interesting is Christians accept Jesus without first examining the nature of God. Here, one is naming an entity withOUT fully the addressing the construct “God”, beforehand.”

OUG,

Measure of Plank time:

http://astrophysics.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_planck_time_and_the_big_bang

Five Year Old’s Knowledge:

Adults process knowledge different to children. Refer Piaget:

http://chiron.valdosta.edu/whuitt/col/cogsys/piaget.html

Nuclear explosion:

Energy “is” released:

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/MuhammadKaleem.shtml

Atable particles refer to the visible universe:

The particles which made the universe “visible” were stable at 380,000 years.

http://zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~idh/apod/ap980207.html

Above, we are looking back towards the (physical) Creation. We can see it because the Universe inflates faster than light, while the light from just after (380,000 years) the Creation is limited to the speed of light in a vacuum.

OUG,

What is the architecture of God? Can you show that God is a closed system having no Creator?

If you feel that the marvels of our universe indicate a Creator, would not an entity more marvellous than universe need to be created, only more so. Alternatively, if something more marvellous than the universe need not be created, why would a lesser state (the universe) need to be created?

If God “acts”, how were the laws of serial causality created, before God’s first action?

Physicists have models of the Creation of the Universe… What is your model of God; i.e, the constitution and processes which enable God?

Squeers,

Many thanks. I have appreciated your contribution to this thread.

There is little evidence over many threads of olo of Christians trying disprove their position, yet several non-theist posters have said that atheism is calibrated (as put by Richard Dawkins), wherein, one can be 99% sure, based on the evidence, there is no God, yet, humans, including atheists, are fallible. On the other hand, Christians seem to hold knowledge of the existence God founded in belief, infallible.

O2,

"Why is he allowing us humans to slowly cause the extinction of so many of his wonderful designs?" - O2

And, further, why did God design and allow the Cambrian Mass Extinction?

olive/oil..quote<<..Universe inflates/..faster than light,.>>apparently/..rebutting them fools..[scientists]...saying light speed is the theoretic/maximum...

<<Outside..mainstream physics,...lol..others have speculated*..mechanisms that..might...,often relying on new conjectures*..of physics..of their own invention*

<<*..but..their ideas..have not gained significant acceptance..in the physics research community...Fictional depictions/superluminal travel are..a staple/science fiction genre*>>...from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light
from
http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=gd&q=faster+than+the+speed+of+light%3F&hl=en-GB&rls=MEDA,MEDA:2008-36,MEDA:en-GB

<<while the light..from just after..(380,000 years)...>>oh dear im convinced...lol

<<What is the architecture of God?..?>>...yes..you know im going to remove your freewill..to believe it or not...can you see radioactivity?..or the flow of electricity..or the wind...

some things..you just accept/..by their signs...ask the previous posters..to forget their prejudgments..and decare their..unspeakable events...they refuse to accord to god...because they fear ridicule...i cant see their fear..but can read it..between the lines

anyhow that being said i saw god...go on laugh...she looks like a huge round cell..with a central nuculi...my first impression was a huge-white/boob..with an engorged nipple...i love watching babies..drink from their mothers breast...the passion...of these new spirits/babes]..trying..to re-conect to the god head...that the most holy dared not look upon...lol

<<..why would a lesser state..(the universe)..need to be created?>>..we will continue to debate..in circles...im rebutting..the so called science..to be any/..true proof...

..think if someone..switched off logic..no gravity ..no life..heart refuse to beat/..lungs refuse to suck air...air stops being air..water isnt water...

its so easy to say nature/..does it..but what is this nature?..natural selection./reflex action....that science accords its theories upon...simply a way of saying not god...lol...but nature [autro-reflex....natural-law...lol]

<<If God..“acts”,how were the laws of serial causality created,before God’s first action?>>..on the thesis of energy not being able to be created or destroyed...god/logus/logic..was in the beginning..because there are so many beginnings...BIG BANG's...start again...

reveal your measure of..eternal/infinite...

<<What is your model of God;>>t..he logic of what is..is sustained to be by god...i call it giving back to caeser...till science makes its OWN life..from not life...[and evolves it]..

i will defend..the good/god sustaining all life...under only the principle..of genesis 18;23-33...till then the rest of you god/deniers ..re getting a free-ride
http://www.newadvent.org/bible/gen018.htm

<<one can be..99% sure,..based on the evidence,..there is no God,>>..and based on the one percent..who do..you 99 percent remain free to blaspeme..the most loving/living/..cause of causes

<<yet,humans,including atheists,are fallible>>.we are all weak/only huH-man..lol