Belly,
You certainly have some ideas that are worth disscussing. Your post re the Columbo plan for example and that some UN members have right to veto decissions, etc.

How are we to reduce the number of refugees in the world?

Things can happen quickly. I may be wrong but did not the Fiji situation arise from them adopting our electoral system (probably suggested by us) which resulted in a minority ethnic group getting government. The main fijian ethnics felt that wrong and staged a coup and there is now a miitary dictatorship.

I think our own 'democracy ' leaves much to be desired. Citizen Initated Referenda would be a step in the right direction as would the abolition of compulsory preferential voting. But being practical, these will never come to pass as they are unfavourable to the main two parties and give some power to the people.

Anyway, perhaps you will put some of your thoughts forward for debate. I could but coming from me they would immediately be labled dog whistles and be accused of racism. Hope you consider such.

Banjo: "We not allow certain groups in that have shown they will not or cannot integrate into our society"

Hey Banjo baby, I read your posts. Seems independent arguments pop up and then I get a bit sidetracked. Like in lots of threads all the info is a bit contradictory, and no one seems to have come up with a link that points to exactly the numbers Oz can sustain right now and in the future.

Aussie doesn’t grant visas to criminals though does it? Or maybe the political ones that are in favour of politics here but at odds in their own land?

“… Aussie born, their culture is passed down to each generation.”

Oh gawd. So fix the schools. My parents are racist; actually they probably have all the “ism’s” going on. I recall very young rejecting completely the things they said when compared to what I learnt at school.

Belly babe: ”The blindness to reality the fact we could never house all who want to come, that birth control is not even thought of by those who suffer so badly, the idea that being too open only lowers our standard of living is a concern.”

So we are back to why they want to come and what they are running from and how to help them back home?

I regularly lower my family’s standard of living for the little Aussies that turn up on my doorstep. Of course they are cute, maybe just let the cute boat people come?

You are going to have to explain the birth rate being a problem because I thought the encouraging women to have babies here was about not enough young people to pay for all the oldies in the future.

"Take 10% of my income to help do not let your blindness turn my country into a third world one.”

I’d say take 10% to first clean up the country. What am I blind to Belly? In all honesty the phrase “my country” is clear. At what point and after how long does it become “our country”?

Pied Piper,
You say
<<and no one seems to have come up with a link that points to exactly the numbers Oz can sustain right now and in the future.>>

You have hit on another of my favorite whinges, that of population policy. Rather than do something practical, our politicians and political parties prefer to play politics with migration issues. They have never and will not put forward a population policy which sets out just how many people they think we should have in Aus. Not even a preliminary target. and we, the electorate, let them get away with that. They simply bring more and more people in because that is what big business wants and business give big donations to political parties to ensure that continues.

Now about cultural practices being passed from one generation. You and I previously discussed the anti-social behaviour of the Lebs. They are now here 2-3 generations and still the same. the Croats and Serbs are here 2-3 generations and still fight each other. Medical people say that those girls that suffered FGM here years ago are now having it done to their daughters, despite extensive education, and the incidence is increasing.

Thats just a few examples of rock solid cultural practices that are alien to our society. I really would like these groups to integrate but have came to conclusion that they will not and is why I say let us stop more of these groups from coming here.

If we want migrants, there are plenty that do integrate and make good citizens.

Here's some figures that will make the likes of Banjo and Belly and their sad ilk cringe.

Migrant statistics:
1945 - 1960 = 1,600,000
60s = 1,300,000
70s = 960,000
80s = 1,100,000
90s = 900,000
2000 -2007 = 900,000

From October 1945 to the present time we have received SIX MILLION EIGHT HUNDRED THOUSAND migrants.

All the migrant/refugee bashing in the world from small minded people like Banjo and Belly can't change that fact.

At the bottom of the previous page belly asked 9 questions. Here's the answers:

1)Just like in the previous 64 years, we can take at least 6,800,000 migrants/refugees over the next 64 years

2)Yes that's correct. Our economy will grow and prosper with the new migrants, just as it has in the past 64 years with the old migrants.

3)New migrants/refugees, just like the Aussies already here, and just like the 6,800,000 new Aussies over the past 64 years, become SELF SUFFICIENT and GREAT contributors to our economy

4)There's not ONE person on Planet Earth who can precisely answer that question. Why? Because the answer depends on whole raft of different parameters. A hundred people could embark on a hundred different studies, and come up with 100 different answers. Proper and efficient water management (which has NEVER, EVER happened in Australia on a large scale basis) will support a GREATLY increased population. With better water management (which WILL happen out of necessity - - - - it's already beginning now) Australia can easily take in another 6,800,000 new Aussies via migration over the next 64 years, just like we've done over the last 64 years.

Continued - - -

- - continued.

5) There's no such thing as our "culture" (singular). Since 1788 our country has been made up of a diverse variety of MANY cultures intertwined together. A more accurate description is our "cultures". Belly asks, do some people threaten this? Well yes. There's people like banjo and Belly who, through their writings, seem to believe in a mono culture only, and people of that ilk definitely enjoy trying to threaten the wide diversity that is the "REAL" Australia. Belly asks, do some people want us to change, and not them? Well DUH! ! ! Of course "some" do.

6)In EVERY country there's pockets of people who practice a mono culture. It's worldwide.

7)It's because they have a suspicion of, and fear of, DIFFERENCE.

8) If by "opening our doors" you mean uncontrolled migration with zero upper limits (WHICH WILL * *NEVER* * happen) then that's not good for any country. If by "opening the doors" you mean controlled immigration such as we've had pre 1949, and in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s 90s and 2000 to 2009, then it is wrong and inhumane to NOT accept migrants and refugees.

9) Every person with a heart is concerned about people in camps, and every person with a heart is concerned about people risking imminent death in refugee sea voyages. Just like banjo likes to stereotype "migrants" as pedophiles, genital mutilators, incest lovers and wife bashers, some people like to stereotype "ALL" boat refugees as wealthy, happy queue pushers fleeing a country that's quite ok, and then once here returning to their original countries for nice holidays and relaxation. With "STEREOTYPES" you can ALWAYS find "some" people who fit the stereotype - - - and this serves to propagate the MYTH that refugees (and in banjo's case "migrants) are scoundrels, pedophiles, incest lovers and wife bashers etc etc etc etc etc. It's the tool of the IGNORANT. And betrays the REAL motivation behind their anti migrant attitudes - - FEAR OF DIFFERENCE!

It's NOT racism, but has EVERYTHING to do with FEAR OF DIFFERENCE!

FEAR OF DIFFERENCE!

“Magnetic Island or Pallarenda would be good right now ;)”

CJ, I lay on the beach on Balding Bay, Magnetic Island last weekend, Pallarenda Beach yesterday and Bushland Beach today. Divine!

“…I note that you sidestepped Master's point above. I don't suppose you'd care to address it?”

You refer to this;

“<< People who have a more "real" interest in the environment like Ludwig, don't criticise the paranoid filled scare mongering from the likes of Belly/Banjo/cornflower because he's basically in agreement with them. The "environment" is their straw man argument. >>”

Firstly, I am pleased that Master appreciates that I do have a real heartfelt interest in environmental health.

Secondly, I don’t agree with everything that Belly, Banjo or Cornflower write, and I don’t share the strong end of their views. I’ve expressed my differences with Belly and Banjo, if not Cornflower as well on different matters.

What I do appreciate about them, and is this where I’ve come unstuck with you and Master, is that we can debate things and express disagreements without insults, slurs, misrepresentations or expressions of abject disdain.

You can’t assume that any poster agrees with any view expressed by anyone else if they haven’t expressly said that they do. Master is totally out of line to assert that I basically agree with them.

If you would like clarification on what I do and don’t agree with, in relation to B, B & C or anyone else, then ask me direct questions, with relevant quotes from them and I’ll give you straight answers.

I respect their views, and I respect your views. But I don’t respect people who can’t handle other peoples’ views and can’t respond in a decent manner.

Thirdly, Master knows and so do you that the environment is certainly not a ‘straw man’ argument for me. I can’t speak for B, B or C on that.

Now I’m going for a run up Castle Hill.