Dear Piper,

In a world where only a little over 2 million
people worldwide have the gender line blurred -
realistically, I think the better option is
what was suggested by the Intersex Society
of North America that I typed in my previous post:

"Provide parents of intersexed newborns - and within
a couple of years, intersexed children themselves,
honest and accurate information about intersex,
provide psychological counselling by professionals who
are not gender-phobic, provide medical help for any
real medical problems, and provide referrals to other
people dealing with the same issues....Peer support,
even if informal saves families and lives..."

'Intersex Australia,' can also offer help and advice
to those that need it. There are organisations working
towards greater equity in this country, as I also
mentioned in my previous post.

Hopefully, one day - people shall be treated as
individuals - but in the meantime, all we can do
is - work towards that goal - on a personal level.

'Intersex Australia,' can also offer help and advice
to those that need it. There are organisations working
towards greater equity in this country, as I also
mentioned in my previous post.”

Foxy I just become increasingly annoyed with myself. How do you find this stuff? When I had the boy who wasn’t allowed to play or act like a girl (damn psychologist) I googled my heart out trying to find something or someone in Aussie to help. The poor little sod needed much more than me.

I think the score so far is DoCS 106 Julie Nil. I’ll be more ready next time although it could be another 18 years.

My personal level I guess is letting kids be kids and not pushing the boy girl stuff aye. I have to admit to being a sucker for a cute little girly dress and also have to say I most often do put them on the female children.

Now what would happen if there was no gender recognition on any forms. I believe everyone would be treated with a little more respect if they had a non specific first name. This world still listens to men and shows more respect to them. It is a terrible shame they are not more grateful.[smile]

i have avoided comment..on what is in reality../a personal-issue..[but will note-down..some random thoughts/on the topic,..be it for titilation..or otherwise

the toilets/are a non issue..[i urinate standing-up..because im a male..with a male appendage]..that being said..i can urinate sitting down..[personally if a woman was standing beside me in a urinal,..urinating as i do..[and not urinating..on my shoes..i would regard it as a non event[..even if she was a stunning model;..type,..her method of urinating..is ger choice

that being said..i move on to a male/femail issue..[re..the toilet seat being up..[woman never get to see under the things..[and lifiting up the filthy things..to urinate one hand..while looking at the filthy underside of a toilet seat..is a thing woman who insist on the practice should look at..before insisting on the practice..[if i drop on the seat..i..wipe it up..[how many woman wipe their leakage under the seat..[ever]

we are seeing the heights of absurdity,..with the preponderance of homo-sexual issues..[now its transgender,..if you got an outie go mens..[an inni sit down..its not rocket science]

as to others..mutilating children''born'..into the wrong bodies,..is something that the person concerned should have final say about..[i say we are..as our spirit needed us to be..[i often think of god..in a flexable way[..as being sexless,..but knowing both the male and femail bits intimatly..[by way of wearing/bearing them both,..

the story of adam..being made in gods image is easier to accept if god birthed..the man,..the god gene..thus becomes xyxyx..but im just throwing this out there..[god for me is more xx,..than xy]..but the why..[y]..might just be there..so in time we learn to ask..why?

anyhow im wandering off topic..[but think god made xy,..xy wanted a mate..so god made a clone from xy's rib..[tossing away that trouble-some testosterone gene..[y]..and doubling up on the x..[creating eve[xx]...

xyxyx loved her xy..but xy rejected xyxyx,..and xyxyx gave xy xx knowing..in time..they would see the anger of xyxyx at being rejected by her beloved xy..[the fool]..he also.didnt get the feminine..of the good..[god]

anyhow i think of god more..in the trinity of gender..[happy now?]..many are called..[few are chosen]..god made you/we/us..what you are..live with it..there are teachings in everything..once we look into it

I included the following comment previously. I still find the situation fascinating. Here is how one gender bender (initially reluctantly) saved a fortune on surgery:

I came across the most remarkable study that at the very least people should find interesting. The researchers involved are well published and together with Guild they are famed for demonstrating differential responding to forced and consensual sex for rapists and non-rapists. The above finding has been subsequently replicated by a number of researchers.

The study arguably can't be taken to show more than (some?) transgender people can make remarkably quick recoveries in the most unlikely circumstances. However an exorcism is involved and hence Gibo I hope you like this. Adding to the remarkable event I note that prior to the exorcism the patient had signed up for surgery and had undergone hormone therapy and just apparently got dragged into it. That makes it doubly surprising.

Three behavioural scientists Abel, Barlow, and Blanchard were engaging in more standard work with transsexuals undergoing sex-reassignment treatment. The subject, "John", who considered himself female but was biologically male had undergone psychotherapy to adapt to his new gender in conjunction with taking female hormones. He was living as a female and about to undergo surgery. He then suddenly dropped out of the study. Researchers later accidentally encountered him and he informed them about the exorcism. Surprisingly he considered himself cured of transsexualism. Naturally the researchers hauled him in and put him through the standard battery of tests. To their amazement, by all scientific standards, John was a functional male with biological and psychological gender in perfect harmony. According to the authors at p394:

"What cannot be denied, however, is that a patient who was very clearly a transsexual by the most conservative criteria assumed a long-lasting masculine gender identity in a remarkably short period of time following the apparent exorcism."

I'm sure it will come as no surprise that they published. Abel, G., Barlow, D., & Blanchard, E. (1977). Gender identity change in a transsexual; An exorcism. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 6(5), 394.

Hi all,

Thought I'd throw a couple of points in. I'm quite a social constructionist so you may not agree with me but as with most things the middle ground is probably right.

I think it's really important to separate the sexed body from gender.

I find the linkage between changing one's sexed body due to a gender issue problematic. I can understand a more consumerist body modification argument but the notion of aligning your sexed body with an ever-present gender (i.e. "I always knew I was a girl/boy") risks cementing notions of masculinity and femininity within the body rather than society. This raises new issues:

- How do we account for hermaphroditism where a body exists in both sexes? Does this person then have both masculine and feminine qualities or do they have just one which we then hope aligns with the bits we choose to keep post surgery (I'm thinking here specifically of surgery on children).

- Same goes for feminine men and masculine women. Having these mixes causes issues

- also femininity and masculinity change at the intersectionalities of race and class. For example the behavioural expectations of African American vs White women or upper class vs lower class women are quite different.

I think that notions of the third gender are also problematic as they don't really do much to challenge masculinity and femininity as being distinct opposing entities. In my view we need to work towards a society where gender and its associated qualities become blurred to the point that it loses its meaning as a term. Yes there are physical differences between people, but these shouldn't define your psycho-social characteristics.

..and toilets? Unisex all the way. Segregation only reproduces gender binaries. Also why stand when you can sit? Much more relaxing :)

Hope all that made sense...

Danski - it made sense to me. It's a very interesting topic and all the posts have been great reading.

My opinion on all of this is a work in progress. There certainly hasn't been enough research done, but the post-op suicide rate is extremely high.

On one hand I want to support other's decisions to modify their bodies; on the other hand I wish people didn't feel the need to do it because I suspect it comes about more by cultural pressure. A few thoughts on it:

- I have known several transexuals (M to F) over the years (mainly pre-op). Every one that I've met was sexually abused as a child; though there are probably others without that background.

- All except one described how they wished to be a frilly or pin-up sort of female. IMO they subscribed to a stereotype of femininity; the one favoured by a patriarchal culture - petticoats; very high heels; long, long lashes and lots of makeup, bows and curls and cleavage - very unlike the average woman.

- I suspect that the underlying idea was that, having been used as a sex object and having been dominated; the belief is that they must be non-male. The only alternative that our culture allows is fe-male - therefore the experience convinced them they must be essentially female.

- At the same time I think that sexuality and sex exists along a continuum - there are enough exceptions to the M/F binary model as evidence. Not just absolute exceptions like hermaphroditism; but also males who are very effeminate but completely heterosexual (like a school mate of mine); and very masculine and feminine types who are homosexual, and so on.

- I don't think our sex or even our bodies matter much from God's POV. I believe he will judge more harshly those who reject others on such superficialities as physical attributes, sex and the like. It's the inner being that counts; all else is temporary.

Just an interesting opinion from another culture:

http://www.epinions.com/specs/Travesti_Sex_Gender_and_Culture_Among_Brazilian_Transgendered_Prostitutes_by_Don_Kulick