I made this post in another forum, but thought it might be appropriate here.
This is my first thread on here so I would appreciate constructive criticism rather than flaming if you feel it is not suitable.

There has been a bit of focus in the news recently about issues of the Third Gender, with Laos recognising transgender members of the population as being at the highest risk of HIV.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8091764.stm

Also a school in Thailand has installed toilets specifically for transgender students, which has prompted debate if this practice should be repeated around the country. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7529227.stm

Innes Brown has written an opinion piece about the personal and societal function of sex change operations from a feminist perspective.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6923912.stm
At the core of the argument is the debate over the presence of innate qualities of being male or female? Or if the differences are entirely socialised?. Then, if innate qualities exist, can this be changed through a medical process? Is this another example of the over medicalising of society?
Are the people who choose to undergo sex change operations being exploited by the medical industry?

I am inclined towards the position that the presence of people who undergo sex change operations is more a reflection of the limited and binary gender categories most society's pressure their population into. By not allowing for a socially accepted grey area between male and female, society pushes those in the middle to take clearly defined sides, leaving the desire for some people to experience some or all elements of the opposing gender unfulfilled.
That being said I have no idea how a society that accepted the third gender would differentiate, would it simply mean another category of toilets available?

Discuss.

Hey Frankiefiver, at a practical level I would say no to different toilets. These people can make that choice too. All schools should have private stalls etc. Where do the gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, and transexual/gender kids go now?

I have had a friend change gender on me, housewife with four grown children who is now a man. Okay as close as possible with one non-working essential. Besides the choice being a complete initial surprise I supported my friends change.

I have also known two young boys in my life that from the time they could walk and talk were more than obviously born in to the wrong body. I looked it up once and sometimes there is a real hormone imbalance etc. But I guess the point is sometimes there isn’t or science has worked it out.

Society might have to stop looking at everyone who isn’t an identical twin funny... oh except those with body dismorphic disorder.

Frankie you have just given me my first headache of the day.

Dear Frankie,

It seems that our society tends to catagorise
children at birth into male or female - the
first question that's asked when a baby is
born is, "Is it a boy or a girl?"
No one asks - "Is it an it?" There doesn't
appear to be a neutral sex.

And yet according to surveys over 2 million
people worldwide (one out of every 2000 - 4000
babies born), the gender line is blurred.

As David Bowie expressed - (Rebel Rebel) -
"You've got your mother in a whirl,
Cause she's not sure
If you're a boy or a girl."

It would be great if people could simply be
accepted for who they are - but I think realistically
that's quite a long way off yet. Look at the problems
that anyone who's considered 'different,' to the
accepted 'norm,' faces. Be they Gay, Lesbian, Transgender,
Black, Brown,Yellow - you name it. It would be great
if gender wasn't important - and children could decide
what suited them best later on in life.

At present - that's not an option.

But we as a society - could work on it, if enough
people supported the cause.

Thank you both for your replies!

For the purpose of this discussion I will define and make the distinction between 'sex' and 'gender'.
Sex being the physically defining characteristics ie male or female genitalia, or in some cases both. It is worth noting that even between the two widely accepted categories of male and female there is some grey area.
Gender being the socially constructed roles that are played within society. Roles that are generally accepted as attributed to one sex or another.

Att; Pied Piper.
I think it is interesting that you chose to use the words "Born into the wrong body" in regards to the two boys.
I am of the opinion that it is impossible to be born into the 'wrong' body. I think it is logical to say that people can only be born into their own body. Modifications are possible, and people can also be mentally altered through higher or lower doses of particular chemicals, in this case it would be hormones. However, I feel essentially the person is the same person regardless of modification.

I see your description of the boys as an example of societies inability to comfortably acknowledge anything outside of the two main gender roles. Judith Butler coined the term 'Gender performativity', which roughly means the kind of behaviour that can be comfortably characterized as male or female.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_performativity
I feel that your description can be explained through the behaviour of the boys not fitting your (and others) gender performative expectations.

Att; Foxy
I agree with you that as a society we could work on recognizing a third gender. We have made huge strides towards greater acceptance and understanding about people with disabilities. Including many changes in the physical spaces we inhabit. An example of this would be wheel chair access at most train stations.
I fail to see how further gender recognition is any different.

If you want a Third Gender then it needs to socially sustainable. Will the value sets be around in 2-3 generations. This is a point alluding to demographics.

In regards to sex-change operations the medical mandate them is compassion. The only other medical procedure justified on these grounds, other than exceptions to my knowledge is the frontal-lobotomy. Surprising despite glowing testimonies the psychological symptoms seem to be persisting. Thus the jury is out. However seeing it changed seems dubious considering the proliferation of plastic surgery.

On the Gender/Sex neurology is showing that there are some differences between male and female. Whether these transfer over to gender identity issues I am unsure.

A gay collegue of mine once quipped, "My parents had three children, one of each."

However, this begs a practical question, how do you define the third gender?

I had always thought that most people incl gays and transgender generally had one gender preference. The separation into male, female and others could be seen as discrimination, and could lead to multiple "genders" ie Male->female, Female->male, transvestite etc.

I can hardly see councils building six sets of ablutions.

Frankie you don’t think someone can be born in to the wrong body but that they can have modifications and then they are still who they are? So until brain transplants come along or a gender defining medication you are saying is we are stuck with what we have got and should accept it yeah?

But you must know at another level until a woman “puts her face on” or a teenage boy is wearing the latest and coolest outfit they don’t feel as confident or okay with themselves. It changes who they are and how they face others/how others face them but you are opposed to this view society has? I agree but this subject is difficult for me to get a handle on.

I believe those two boys were girls no matter what the reason. One insisted however that when he grew up he wanted to marry a girl. I’m quite sure when they do grow up they will both be more feminine than your average female. They wont be comfortable just choosing one gender they will go above and beyond.

Hey – cause you are interested in this stuff…. With one of the boys I was told to not ignore the behavior any further (I didn’t mind him playing with dolls or acting like a girl). In future he had to only play with boys toys and stay away from girls. A local psychologist gave this analogy; to accept his current behaviour was like giving a person who liked stabbing others a knife. How’s that for society choosing who we are.

I will go read Judith’s thing again, I found it really confusing the first time around.

I believe society should be focused on respecting who individuals are without categories, Ladies Gents Undecided or maybe just individual toilets and changing rooms everywhere. No, I have no answer for the sports teams.[smile]

Foxy, love Bowie. And The Who “I’m a boy I’m a boy l but my ma wont admit it”.

There must be more than three aye Shadow Minister. Do we have “agender” like "asexual"?

It is quite simple really.
Are the chromosomes male or female.

If there are problems either mentally or physical then treatment to
push the child in the direction of the chromosomes would seem to be
the most likely to succeed process.

There might be some genes that are faulty but the newly developing
gene therapies may even be able to fix some of them.

The suggestion to have a third toilet facility is absurd.
Who is going to pay for that ?

Bazz:”If there are problems either mentally or physical then treatment to
push the child in the direction of the chromosomes would seem to be
the most likely to succeed process.
There might be some genes that are faulty but the newly developing
gene therapies may even be able to fix some of them.”

Bazz fixing them implies something is wrong. Who decides what is faulty and what was “meant to be”. How would we know if we are correcting something that was part of how humans were supposed to evolve?

I think (not positive) that Frankie was edging towards acceptance of the book rather than the cover.

Does the individual get to decide if they want fixing and in what direction? If society backed off would the person even notice something about them required alteration?

I dunno. The two young boys I knew came from different backgrounds, different families, and different races, raised in two different countries, and born over 18 years apart. I have no idea why they were the way they were but by age 3 in both cases they were on their paths.

Now my housewife friend that became a man, she’d spent nearly 50 years very female and the previous 25 a mummy and nana; her hubby had an affair and then they divorced and she thought men had all the power so became one. No hormone imbalance or wonky genes. Didn’t change sexuality (is that the right word?) because she continued to sleep with men albeit gay men.

It was interesting watching her transformation through the hormone shots. S/he got a lot slimmer, more aggressive, a lot more confident. Umm… cruder and more masculine in attitude than most men I knew. But happy, excited about who she was becoming

Moderator: any chance of getting these server errors fixed ?

Pied Piper,
>Who decides what is faulty and what was “meant to be

Simple the chromosomes, that *is* what was meant to be.
The Chromosomes are the book.

>she thought men had all the power so became one

If she thought she was a bird and could fly would you let her jump off ?
It really is quite simple. If it is a mental only condition then they
must be treated like the person who thinks they are a bird or
whatever else has taken their fancy.

>It was interesting watching her transformation through the hormone shots.

I wonder if her children thought it was such a good idea ?
Sounds very much like she needed some councelling and whoever
prescribed the hormone treatment should perhaps be reported for
malpractice.

If it is a physical problem then surgeons can do their best, or
perhaps hormones can make up for the difficiency that mau exist.

Dear Frankie,

The following website may be of interest to people:

http://www.isna.org/node/565

Its the Intersex Society of North America.

They say that it is vital to:

"Provide parents of intersexed newborns - and
within a couple of years, intersexed children
themselves, honest and accurate information about
intersex, as well as psychological counselling by
professionals who are not genderphobic, medical
help for any real medical problems, and referrals
to other people dealing with the same issues.
It was found that peer support, even informal, saves
families and lives."

There's also an interesting book listed on the
amazon.com website:

"Third Sex, Third Gender: Beyond Dimorphism
in Culture and History." (Paperback)
Edited by Gilbert Herdt.

And if people want to google - 'intersex Australia,'
there's quite a few interesting websites listed.

According to Reuters (Dec. 6, 2008)

" - Australia's official human
rights watchdog wants a third gender called
'intersex' to be created for use on official
documents like passports and driving licenses.
The Commission is a statutory body that advises
the Australian Government."

"Moderator: any chance of getting these server errors fixed?"

[smile] They really suck if you haven’t first typed it all up somewhere else aye.

“Simple the chromosomes, that *is* what was meant to be.
The Chromosomes are the book.”

What if they arn’t, what if humans are meant to change? Humans have already done a few leaps or we’d still be hanging out on the African plains. What if all humans were supposed to become transgender in thought first and it isn’t something that should be fixed? Among animals we evolved pretty quickly didn’t we?

Maybe we were all supposed to become autistic, that has had a rapid rise. I read this whole thing on men’s chromosomes becoming shorter so nature has already planned to be rid of the gender issue in a couple of hundred thousand years.

Ahh my friend did receive counseling; you have to before this kind of thing.

Jumping off would have killed her although, to me, becoming a man would make me want to jump off. But she wanted to become something that was possible these days. Her kids were grown, not their business really. At least she still has the choice to return if she decides to as nothing permanent was done but she did look like a bloke by the end of it.

It might be a new weight loss solution for females.

Foxy, what if they just took away the gender question in all forms everywhere? Not sure how I’d feel about it personally but might be worth it in the end.

Dear Piper,

In a world where only a little over 2 million
people worldwide have the gender line blurred -
realistically, I think the better option is
what was suggested by the Intersex Society
of North America that I typed in my previous post:

"Provide parents of intersexed newborns - and within
a couple of years, intersexed children themselves,
honest and accurate information about intersex,
provide psychological counselling by professionals who
are not gender-phobic, provide medical help for any
real medical problems, and provide referrals to other
people dealing with the same issues....Peer support,
even if informal saves families and lives..."

'Intersex Australia,' can also offer help and advice
to those that need it. There are organisations working
towards greater equity in this country, as I also
mentioned in my previous post.

Hopefully, one day - people shall be treated as
individuals - but in the meantime, all we can do
is - work towards that goal - on a personal level.

'Intersex Australia,' can also offer help and advice
to those that need it. There are organisations working
towards greater equity in this country, as I also
mentioned in my previous post.”

Foxy I just become increasingly annoyed with myself. How do you find this stuff? When I had the boy who wasn’t allowed to play or act like a girl (damn psychologist) I googled my heart out trying to find something or someone in Aussie to help. The poor little sod needed much more than me.

I think the score so far is DoCS 106 Julie Nil. I’ll be more ready next time although it could be another 18 years.

My personal level I guess is letting kids be kids and not pushing the boy girl stuff aye. I have to admit to being a sucker for a cute little girly dress and also have to say I most often do put them on the female children.

Now what would happen if there was no gender recognition on any forms. I believe everyone would be treated with a little more respect if they had a non specific first name. This world still listens to men and shows more respect to them. It is a terrible shame they are not more grateful.[smile]

i have avoided comment..on what is in reality../a personal-issue..[but will note-down..some random thoughts/on the topic,..be it for titilation..or otherwise

the toilets/are a non issue..[i urinate standing-up..because im a male..with a male appendage]..that being said..i can urinate sitting down..[personally if a woman was standing beside me in a urinal,..urinating as i do..[and not urinating..on my shoes..i would regard it as a non event[..even if she was a stunning model;..type,..her method of urinating..is ger choice

that being said..i move on to a male/femail issue..[re..the toilet seat being up..[woman never get to see under the things..[and lifiting up the filthy things..to urinate one hand..while looking at the filthy underside of a toilet seat..is a thing woman who insist on the practice should look at..before insisting on the practice..[if i drop on the seat..i..wipe it up..[how many woman wipe their leakage under the seat..[ever]

we are seeing the heights of absurdity,..with the preponderance of homo-sexual issues..[now its transgender,..if you got an outie go mens..[an inni sit down..its not rocket science]

as to others..mutilating children''born'..into the wrong bodies,..is something that the person concerned should have final say about..[i say we are..as our spirit needed us to be..[i often think of god..in a flexable way[..as being sexless,..but knowing both the male and femail bits intimatly..[by way of wearing/bearing them both,..

the story of adam..being made in gods image is easier to accept if god birthed..the man,..the god gene..thus becomes xyxyx..but im just throwing this out there..[god for me is more xx,..than xy]..but the why..[y]..might just be there..so in time we learn to ask..why?

anyhow im wandering off topic..[but think god made xy,..xy wanted a mate..so god made a clone from xy's rib..[tossing away that trouble-some testosterone gene..[y]..and doubling up on the x..[creating eve[xx]...

xyxyx loved her xy..but xy rejected xyxyx,..and xyxyx gave xy xx knowing..in time..they would see the anger of xyxyx at being rejected by her beloved xy..[the fool]..he also.didnt get the feminine..of the good..[god]

anyhow i think of god more..in the trinity of gender..[happy now?]..many are called..[few are chosen]..god made you/we/us..what you are..live with it..there are teachings in everything..once we look into it

I included the following comment previously. I still find the situation fascinating. Here is how one gender bender (initially reluctantly) saved a fortune on surgery:

I came across the most remarkable study that at the very least people should find interesting. The researchers involved are well published and together with Guild they are famed for demonstrating differential responding to forced and consensual sex for rapists and non-rapists. The above finding has been subsequently replicated by a number of researchers.

The study arguably can't be taken to show more than (some?) transgender people can make remarkably quick recoveries in the most unlikely circumstances. However an exorcism is involved and hence Gibo I hope you like this. Adding to the remarkable event I note that prior to the exorcism the patient had signed up for surgery and had undergone hormone therapy and just apparently got dragged into it. That makes it doubly surprising.

Three behavioural scientists Abel, Barlow, and Blanchard were engaging in more standard work with transsexuals undergoing sex-reassignment treatment. The subject, "John", who considered himself female but was biologically male had undergone psychotherapy to adapt to his new gender in conjunction with taking female hormones. He was living as a female and about to undergo surgery. He then suddenly dropped out of the study. Researchers later accidentally encountered him and he informed them about the exorcism. Surprisingly he considered himself cured of transsexualism. Naturally the researchers hauled him in and put him through the standard battery of tests. To their amazement, by all scientific standards, John was a functional male with biological and psychological gender in perfect harmony. According to the authors at p394:

"What cannot be denied, however, is that a patient who was very clearly a transsexual by the most conservative criteria assumed a long-lasting masculine gender identity in a remarkably short period of time following the apparent exorcism."

I'm sure it will come as no surprise that they published. Abel, G., Barlow, D., & Blanchard, E. (1977). Gender identity change in a transsexual; An exorcism. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 6(5), 394.

Hi all,

Thought I'd throw a couple of points in. I'm quite a social constructionist so you may not agree with me but as with most things the middle ground is probably right.

I think it's really important to separate the sexed body from gender.

I find the linkage between changing one's sexed body due to a gender issue problematic. I can understand a more consumerist body modification argument but the notion of aligning your sexed body with an ever-present gender (i.e. "I always knew I was a girl/boy") risks cementing notions of masculinity and femininity within the body rather than society. This raises new issues:

- How do we account for hermaphroditism where a body exists in both sexes? Does this person then have both masculine and feminine qualities or do they have just one which we then hope aligns with the bits we choose to keep post surgery (I'm thinking here specifically of surgery on children).

- Same goes for feminine men and masculine women. Having these mixes causes issues

- also femininity and masculinity change at the intersectionalities of race and class. For example the behavioural expectations of African American vs White women or upper class vs lower class women are quite different.

I think that notions of the third gender are also problematic as they don't really do much to challenge masculinity and femininity as being distinct opposing entities. In my view we need to work towards a society where gender and its associated qualities become blurred to the point that it loses its meaning as a term. Yes there are physical differences between people, but these shouldn't define your psycho-social characteristics.

..and toilets? Unisex all the way. Segregation only reproduces gender binaries. Also why stand when you can sit? Much more relaxing :)

Hope all that made sense...

Danski - it made sense to me. It's a very interesting topic and all the posts have been great reading.

My opinion on all of this is a work in progress. There certainly hasn't been enough research done, but the post-op suicide rate is extremely high.

On one hand I want to support other's decisions to modify their bodies; on the other hand I wish people didn't feel the need to do it because I suspect it comes about more by cultural pressure. A few thoughts on it:

- I have known several transexuals (M to F) over the years (mainly pre-op). Every one that I've met was sexually abused as a child; though there are probably others without that background.

- All except one described how they wished to be a frilly or pin-up sort of female. IMO they subscribed to a stereotype of femininity; the one favoured by a patriarchal culture - petticoats; very high heels; long, long lashes and lots of makeup, bows and curls and cleavage - very unlike the average woman.

- I suspect that the underlying idea was that, having been used as a sex object and having been dominated; the belief is that they must be non-male. The only alternative that our culture allows is fe-male - therefore the experience convinced them they must be essentially female.

- At the same time I think that sexuality and sex exists along a continuum - there are enough exceptions to the M/F binary model as evidence. Not just absolute exceptions like hermaphroditism; but also males who are very effeminate but completely heterosexual (like a school mate of mine); and very masculine and feminine types who are homosexual, and so on.

- I don't think our sex or even our bodies matter much from God's POV. I believe he will judge more harshly those who reject others on such superficialities as physical attributes, sex and the like. It's the inner being that counts; all else is temporary.

Just an interesting opinion from another culture:

http://www.epinions.com/specs/Travesti_Sex_Gender_and_Culture_Among_Brazilian_Transgendered_Prostitutes_by_Don_Kulick

Swedish parents raising gender non-specific child
June 26, 2009

http://birdofparadox.wordpress.com/2009/06/26/swedish-parents-raising-gender-non-specific-child/

“We want Pop to grow up more freely and avoid being forced into a specific gender mould from the outset,” Pop’s mother said. “It’s cruel to bring a child into the world with a blue or pink stamp on their forehead.”

The child’s parents said so long as they keep Pop’s gender a secret, he or she will be able to avoid preconceived notions of how people should be treated if male or female.
Pop’s wardrobe includes everything from dresses to trousers and Pop’s hairstyle changes on a regular basis. And Pop usually decides how Pop is going to dress on a given morning.

Although Pop knows that there are physical differences between a boy and a girl, Pop’s parents never use personal pronouns when referring to the child – they just say Pop."

PS UOG: "Trinity of Gender" Love that phrase, I'm stealing it.

The tools of procreation, should be excepted for what they are,whoever carries them. If no procreation can take place, it's called sterile.
However if you carry both on the same point, you will be unique, if you can self procreate in that circumstance, that should be called 'third gender'. It's all simple really, why the fuss? Live and let live.
It's not appropriate to apply the 'Spartan' approach any more.

There are two genders, male and female. For those who think they are the one, assigned to the wrong physical definition are merely "misfits".

We do not deploy toilets for short people, distinct from toilets for Tall people, regardless the inconvenience to the vertically challenged or the additional aiming skills required by the vertically super endowed ......

and I figure there are more extremely short and extremely tall people than there are sexual misfits.

We should not adopt special standards for those misfits who think they are "special" just because they are "confused".

Dear Col,

May I humbly suggest that you read the
following website:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

It's quite an interesting article and
really broadens one's perspective if
one keeps an open mind.

They should make separate toilets for grumpy old shitts.

Piper

http://www.criticallayouts.com/images/rsgallery/original/laughing-so-hard-ag1.gif

I agree - they can keep their stink all to themselves.

Foxy "Dear Col,

May I humbly suggest that you read the
following website:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

It's quite an interesting article and
really broadens one's perspective if
one keeps an open mind."

Actually, Foxy, I am about to declare a forth gender, those with two backsides ... which is an anatomical prerequiste for the proponents of the third gender, who are full of "tish".

With their unique anatonical construct, it is unreasonable for them to share the facilities designed for the exclusive benefit of the mono-anal.

Thus special facilities need to be urgently constructed with priority over the nubulous expectations of the third gender.

Col I figure you are the most people loving, joy spreading person in creation. You will help a neighbor a stranger and only have smiles for everyone.

This is just the only outlet you have for an itty bitty nasty streak you have.

I thank the gods that be for this chance you have to occasionally have an odd little cluck at other messages to take the load off your do-gooding shoulders.

I am happy to help assist you in carrying on distributing hugs and happy thoughts to all humans everywhere.

Ah Pied Piper “This is just the only outlet you have for an itty bitty nasty streak you have."

I see nothing reflective of an “itty bitty nasty streak” in promoting the needs of the fourth gender, their circumstances must be far more pressing and urgent than the third gender.

However, if you want to take a swipe at me, I suggest you lift your game from “green novice” and say what you really think, giving me something to bite on with relish, instead of just “wannabe platitudes”.

Regarding “outlets”, I choose where I “outlet”, free of fear and indifferent to retribution (lets face it you freely "evacuate" here, so why should I not).

In fact, you should really thank me for "outletting" here and so providing you with an opportunity to improve your reading skills.

"In fact, you should really thank me for "outletting" here and so providing you with an opportunity to improve your reading skills."

Thank you Col.

Toilet's unisex transformation to end gay beat hotspot
Article from: Daily Telegraph
By Vikki Campion
July 06, 2009 12:00am

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,25737500-5006009,00.html

Just a few thousand more to go aye.

Piper, you should cut poor old Col a bit of slack. His "fourth gender" is really a plea to accommodate people like himself who have two arses - one for the usual purposes and the other through which he talks.

Piper

At university we had uni-sex toilets - no problems.

Also having had to access male toilets due to inadequate number of female toilets at theatres and other public events - would unisex toilets solve the issue? Or be an excuse to build less toilets?

As for the proposal of building additional toilets for third gender.... build enough toilets for all and get over this gender thing. Who cares what someone's sexual identity is about? The only people who are concerned are those who feel their masculinity is somehow threatened by even the mention of homosexuals or trans-gender.

I notice that Pynchme commented on the pattern that male-to-female trannies take is generally towards the idealised version of femininity - more female than female. While I don't doubt that people do not identify with the sex of the body they inhabit, I too find it disconcerting that trannies take on such a superficial ideal of what it is to be female.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxLBpa7g5fg

Little Britain gets it.

That was brilliant, I’d never seen any of Little Britain before and it reminded me of Monty Python.

Really just remove urinals everywhere aye and take the lables off the doors. Must admit I want a toddler bathroom with a little urinal, I’m sure it would decrease the number of accidents.

The transgender and transsexual people I have known exaggerated their roles. Maybe that is what they are drawn to and what they perceive as the “true” male/female persona? Made them all extreme feminists and chauvinists in my mind and they bugged me know end at times, I am not a girlie girl and never have been.

My ex-female friend who is living as a male e-mailed me recently – after not hearing anything for over 7 years now and s/he contacts me just as I was posting in this thread – people just kind of find you on facebook aye. They are a hassled by “rednecks”, this is just for being a gay male and I’m sure the hassling would increase tenfold if they knew s/he was biologically a she. Oh not completely accurate, some things have been removed I gather.

Wonder how boarding schools get on with kids that have taken a step to the right.

Piper

"The transgender and transsexual people I have known exaggerated their roles."

That's my experience as well. I agree about the extreme sexist behaviour from either gender variant.

There needs to be change rooms for the kiddies - ones where either a father or mother can care for their infant.

Glad you enjoyed "Little Britain" - you should check them out - hilarious stuff, although they can be very extreme with their targets for satire, but the men, Matt Lucas and David Walliams are wonderful inspiring people in the real world.

http://www.solarnavigator.net/sport/sport_aid.htm

And Matt Lucas is a patron of the The Karen Morris Memorial Trust, a UK charity for leukaemia patients and their families. In 2004 he appeared on Celebrity Who Wants To Be A Millionaire and won £62,500 for the charity.

You will also enjoy Matt Lucas' "Only gay in the village" sketch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YHbTjpjUEI

Haha... That was cool, dinner was late last night cause I got hooked on them. Which is David and which one Matt?

I am all in favour of parent toilets, there’s a good one in my local mall with changing table kitchenette and microwave – place for the breastfeeding mums to have a bit of peace and quiet. Much nicer here than in NZ. It provides a good time out/calm down spot as well.

You ever been in a (lower class I htink) gay bar? Years ago I was and what a horrible experience going toilet – the women trying to act like they think men act and glaring at you. Was a couple of butch dykes (don’t know if that is PC) probably full of testosterone shots or something.

Rude though, I haven't known men to do that to a female in the same circumstance.

Piper

I have found the most extreme behaviour of some lesbians to be equal to that of some straight males, dunno why they ape the worst of male behaviour. That said, back when I used to go clubbing, I felt very safe going out with lesbian women, whereas out with my gay male friends, there was always a chance that some straights would pick a fight with my friends.

I recall one New Year's Eve I went to a notorious gay pub in Fitzroy, Melbourne, thinking at least I be safe from the male grope while making my way through the crowd - I was probably pinched and groped more than in a straight bar. Whattha? Were they checking to see if I was real? But hey, that's humans for you. Weird one day, weirder the next.

Haha so you 'wasted' time on Little Britain - at least when you got around to making dinner you would've been laughing to yourself. Matt is the short one and David the tall.

I think we have solved the problems with loos - available to all with special sections for parents.

Now, how do we bring about world peace?

Oh Fractelle you’re gonna have to give me a few more minutes to work on that one...

Awhile ago I watched this SciFi movie, I really enjoyed it but have no idea what it was called and only ever watched the last twenty minutes. The basic theme was the universe gone mad with some really rabid humans in spaceships slaughtering the peace loving ones when they could.

Turned out that a drug the human race had been put on to be kept calm had kind of had an allergic reaction and the rabid types were the result. On the other hand the rest of the people went so passive they didn’t defend themselves.

A better drug would be my answer or some sort of little lobotomy at birth. Ironic but I think there is some part of the human brain that needs removing to make everyone smarter.

Doing what I do I meet some rather strange people, often I’ll meet three generations at the same time. I seriously have no idea how they function and it’s not like I have particularly high standards. They are incredibly damaging… and trapped by choice and then trap subsequent generations.

These are people who cannot identify a need to improve their life, themselves, their kids lives, or their world because it was okay for their parents. They make me shudder.

My experience with gays and lesbians has been
extremely positive. I've worked with them all of my
adult life and have formed lasting friendships.
I haven't been in gay bars but
I've been to dinner parties at their homes,
and they've been to mine. The only problem I had was
attending a week-end in celebration of a close-friend's
life who had aids. Everyone decided to shave their heads
that week-end to show support. I couldn't do it (being
young and vain - much to my shame). But no one
made a big deal out of it. Except I had many sleepless
nights afterwards as a result. Today, I probably would
have done things differently.

How do we bring about world peace?
By taking responsibility for our own actions.
Personal transformation can and does have global
effects. If we want to take responsibility for
the world we need to take more seriously our
individual contributions to it.

Pied Piper “A better drug would be my answer or some sort of little lobotomy at birth.”
(your answer I assume being “Turned out that a drug the human race had been put on to be kept calm had kind of had an allergic reaction and the rabid types were the result”)

It seems to me that as someone who has taken it unto themselves to criticize the content of my posts, you are now confirming the extent of your own hubris.

As an alternative to a universal sedative, you would rather employ “A little lobotomy”.

A vile concept.

I consistently defend the universal right of people to be different and you dare suggest “This is just the only outlet you have for an itty bitty nasty streak you have.”

Hypocrisy weeps out from every pore of you, Pied Piper!

I see the resident Moron has stood clear of the stone under which he usually hides to make sly asides of no consequence.

Now, CJ enough excitement for you, it’s time to go back into your dog box.

Foxy, To matters of World Peace etc… “when the meek inherit the earth” and until then, be prepared to defend yourself form those who are not “meek”
Re “If we want to take responsibility for the world we need to take more seriously our individual contributions to it.”

I agree totally and absolutely with taking personal responsibility for our own existence and actions, Foxy.

I disagree with ever assuming any responsibility for the actions of others (as in “responsibility for the world”). They might sound like nice words but they mean nothing, when the person saying them does not control, the will or actions of the rest of humanity.
And to be honest, to “control the will and actions of others” is the sort of thinking which ends up promoting Pied Pipers “drug and lobotomy” style solutions.

Ultimately, anyone can choose to be any gender they want, I just do not see the merit is a minority of misfits demanding special entitlement or recognition for being misfits / sexually abnormal.

“Pied Piper “A better drug would be my answer or some sort of little lobotomy at birth.”
(your answer I assume being “Turned out that a drug the human race had been put on to be kept calm had kind of had an allergic reaction and the rabid types were the result”)”

I said “A better drug”. Col you might live in a nice world I dunno, I hope you do. There I was just chit chatting with Fractelle and it is like you were perched ready to swoop. But since you have taken my post to heart, again, I’ll do what I can…

“I agree totally and absolutely with taking personal responsibility for our own existence and actions”

This is the ideology of Anarchy? Could work but not the way humans are now.

Did I critique content? I thought I was critiquing attitude. Hubris?

“As an alternative to a universal sedative, you would rather employ “A little lobotomy”.

Either either.

Vile is how humans are now. Humans are already on drugs, they’re already killing off brain cells in chunks. Young kids are medicated to the eyeballs and it’s probably altering their minds forever. Some kids never recover from the abuse they suffer either. Often kids don’t get to grow up to who they could have been because of the vile, the lazy, and the people that are too busy to notice.

You defend this universal right of people as long as they don’t have a different opinion to you?

You are nasty to me. I never even worked out why – I just react to it.

“Hypocrisy weeps out from every pore of you, Pied Piper!”

I don’t get it. I think it might be fun for you. It is a certainly an interesting way for you to promote world peace.

Dear Col,

Thank You for responding to my post.

I can understand your regarding intersexuality and
the Third Gender with some suspicion. There are many
people that would agree with you. However I find myself
learning a great deal from this thread.

I am interested in learning a bit more about the topic
- I had no idea that there were in fact more than
Three Genders - and I'm still doing a bit more
research on the topic.

As for the prospects for peace.
I agree with you that we can't be responsible
for the actions of other people - but history
has shown that collective action can achieve
quite a bit. Take for example the Vietnam War.

It was through collective action that ordinary people
with few resources other than their own determination
changed a national consensus for war to a
national consensus for peace and in the US forced a
US President to resign.

Whether we choose to destroy our civilisation or
save it is a collective decision - and one that hopefully
will be made within our lifetimes. We have the power by
electing the right governments,
whose leaders will be aware of our restraints
on their ability to
wage war. If more and more nuclear weapons
are built, and if more sophisticated means of
delivering them are devised - and if more and more
nations get control of these vile devices - than
surely we risk our own destruction. But if ways are
found to reverse that process, than we can divert
our energy and resources to the real problems facing us,
such as poverty, disease, and so on.

We need new ways of thinking to cope with the nuclear
age.

I want Parent toilets.

Once I was given a few too many filthy looks going into the female toilets with my daughter, I decided to go into the men's one day. Nearly got bashed for being a 'spider' by a huge Maori guy. My daughter was terrified and screaming.

So, I'm considered a pervert either way when my daughter needs to go to the loo.

Foxy “I can understand your regarding intersexuality and the Third Gender with some suspicion.”

Yes, I regard these “Third Gender” misfits as people who have an overdeveloped sense of self importance, which they feel entitles them to ignore their responsibility to conform to their the gender of their birth.

“Take for example the Vietnam War.”

The Vietnam war is an example of ill conceived strategy deployed with the intention of containment, instead of the direct annihilation of the enemy. Such strategies are doomed to failure, merely echoing the outcome of the Munich agreement as signed between Hitler, Chamberlain & Co.

Regarding “a national consensus for peace and in the US forced a US President to resign.”

Now that could only be tricky Dicky Nixon…because he was the only one to resign and that resignation had absolutely stuff all to do with peace activists or other niceties.. he was impeached by congress over the Watergate scandal, which was revealed through the actions of a pair of newpaper reporters who had nothing to do with peace activists.

I cannot be bothered to reply to the Pied Piper, who seems to be right out there with the pixies.

Ah Col, pixies you say. When you have dealt with small children already showing signs of being misfits with an overdeveloped sense of importance then maybe you would find a reply.

How does one tell a four year old to conform to their gender? When you see how other adults treat them you may even be inclined to stand by this:

“I consistently defend the universal right of people to be different…”

Hey Holle, I know – often my husband has the same problem, and as I have been heard to mutter often in my life “bloody Maori’s”.

"Yes, I regard these “Third Gender” misfits as people who have an overdeveloped sense of self importance, which they feel entitles them to ignore their responsibility to conform to their the gender of their birth."

Col,

The self understanding that I have heard expressed has made me believe that they are potentially more fluid than a homosexual. Indeed if social scientists ever become less liberal and open to investigating that possibility the g, b & l component of the GBLT might discover that the GBLT term is a political liability and regret it. (People might jump to the conclusion that the rest in the group are just as potentially fluid.) I have never encountered a transgender person who hasn't already had the chop and I have never been comfortable discussing my guess with people who have already had the chop so it is hard to explore further. After keeping that guess to myself, the study I referred to earlier was fascinating as it was consistent with my guess. Therefore I do not buy into the 'born into the wrong body' thing as a biological phenomena which is of course the relevant liberal anthem. I consider transgender to be a state of mind just as you seem to when you use the unflattering term "misfit".

Nevertheless, these people genuinely believe that they are the opposite gender. The projected "overdeveloped sense of self importance" may be just an artifact of the caricature image they have of the opposite sex which they shelter behind. Have you considered the possibility that the overdeveloped sense of importance might be a mask behind which they shield from their own inner struggle commencing in childhood and the unkind words which are used by some people to describe them rather than an ego trip? - perhaps an in the face bluff like reverse snobbery but more deep and painful. As someone anecdotally observed earlier many of them have had horrible things happen in their childhood. With respect I think you are oversimplifying and being unfair to the people concerned.

Gender identification is not just "all in the mind", as Col states so viciously and MJPB suggests far more compassionately. The most obvious cases of gender ambiguity are those little babies born with dual or indeterminate genitalia, while other people may have clear physical gender distinction, others may not.

Col, people no more choose to be gay or transgender than you chose to be heterosexual - your attitudes towards people who are different or hold different opinion from you is reprehensible - and you actually claim to be a libertarian. Your claims for individual freedom only applies to yourself - to everyone else who dares to differ, you are markedly authoritarian.

One of the most sincere and openly honest people on OLO, is Pied Piper and even she is not spared your venom.

I suggest you read the following articles and do something you have not done in many a year - learn something.

http://www.gendercentre.org.au/ambiguous_genitalia.htm

"When gender is unclear at birth.

We're born, someone looks at our genitals, and instantly we're categorised. "It's a boy!" "It's a girl!" And from that one announcement, many things are determined. Whether we're issued a blue or pink blanket. Our name. To some extent, what toys and games we'll likely be given. Our future roles in reproduction.

But some babies are born with ambiguous genitals – it's not clear from just looking what their gender really is. And how gender is determined in such babies tells a lot about what actually makes someone male or female.

......"Whatever the cause, what's important to understand is that ambiguous genitals are not an oddity of nature. These are simply parts of the body that are only part-way developed," Dr. Zimmerman explains. "It may be unclear at birth what was intended – a penis or clitoris. At that point, we have to look at several factors to determine gender."

Fractelle “Col, people no more choose to be gay or transgender than you chose to be heterosexual - your attitudes towards people who are different or hold different opinion from you is reprehensible - and you actually claim to be a libertarian.”

Ah fractelle, she who never misses an opportunity to hurl an ill conceived and intellectually unsound judgment at others.

To third gender, me and my liberation values

Me and my libertarian values I have no problem with peoples abnormalities, but in the context of this debate, I see no reason to pander to misfit demands of some supposed abnormal “third gender”..

If you had the wit to actually comprehend what I write, fractelle (which is probably pushing intellectual limits beyond the possible) you would realize that whilst liberation values accept diversity and abnormality, libertarianism does not seek to provide any “special dispensation” for them.

Thus, we have two primary genders, male and female and admittedly some aberrations like hermaphrodites

but the number of hermaphrodites is so insignificant that they don’t qualify for “special toilet block or other treatment”, likewise this stupid myth of some mystical “third gender”.

Your comments, to my reading and learning habits are naturally ignored, what possible use could the likes of me have for the bleatings of the patently ignorant.

Excellent posts Jewlley and Fractelle ;^)

Col - what a nasty hypocrite you are.

I do think that some homosexuals are born and some choose to have same sex partners, and that's ok. I could never come at sex with another female myself. However, that's why I think that sexuality exists on a continuum.

Some reasons to support other's choices:

1. The many sad cases of men marrying to try and live as (current, but not historical) social pressure dictates, resulting in unhappy people, gay affairs on the side and late life marriage dissolution as those people finally strike out to live the way the should have from the start, leaving confused and broken hearted women and children bhind.

2. Every manner of therapy and even exorcism has been tried to change people's sexual orientation, to no avail.

3. Homosexuality can't be bred out. In every society known there has been a proportion of homosexual people - estimated at from 2 to 10 % of population. Homosexuality also exists amongst animal populations.

4. Considering point 3., I have a theory developing for those who are fond of biological determinism. Homosexuality must serve a purpose or evolution would have left it behind. Imagine the benefit of having some of the male population who had no interest in having sex with females. Those males could have stayed as protectors and helpers (considering their strength and speed) to group females and children, while other males were off hunting ad warring.

Dear Col,

A correction - It wasn't Richard Nixon.
It was Lyndon Baines Johnson.

The Vietnam war came to an end largely as a result
of the antiwar movement, a social movement that
consisted disproportinately of young people, including
many college students. When the antiwar movement first
challenged the war, it received little support
from politicians or the press, and its goals seemed
almost hopeless. But the tide of public opinion gradually
began to shift. In the 1968 primaries, an anti-war
candidate backed by student volunteers did unexpectedly
well and President Johnson decided not to run for
re-election (not Richard Nixon as you thought).

From that point on, political debate on the war focused not
on how to stay in it, but how to get out of it.

Through collective action, ordinary people with few
resources other than their own determination had changed
a national consensus for war to a national consensus
for peace.

A fundamental insight of sociology is that once people no
longer take their world for granted, but instead
understand the social authorship of their lives and
futures, they can become an irresistible force in history.

Col

Not one for self-reflection are you? If you ever deigned to reread any of your posts AND actually reflected on how much they reveal about your narrow-minded and intellectually impoverished state of being, perhaps you would, in future, produce opinions of merit. At present you have failed to note that in past contributions to this thread I disagreed with the proposal of additional toilets for transgender people. In fact I supported the idea of uni-sex toilets, the only special provision being for parents of very young children, whose requirements though universal and commonplace, are neglected. Perhaps you have never had to change a nappy in a public toilet.

Nor do you bother to educate yourself about what it is to be human and the variations that occur either from birth or from environment. Homosexuality is a normal and natural occurrance throughout the animal world - and yes we are just animals, Col. As for your sneers at "aberrant behaviour" this is hardly the province of our homosexual community - heterosexual behaviour encompasses a diversity of what can also be described as "aberrant" at its most extreme. What a sheltered life you must lead.

In conclusion you have made two errors of judgement on this topic:

1. That I agreed to special provision of toilets for transgender - I do not.

2. That you believe homosexuality to be an deviant choice of behaviour.

As I and many others have stated (and provided abundant evidence) the majority of homosexuals are born not made and for those few who do choose same sex partners - so what? Why does it upset you so much that you expend copious time on threads devoted to homosexuality?

You protest much for a self-claimed independently motivated proponent of libertarian ideals.

Fractelle,

Is your discussion with Col just in here or is it a continuation of a discussion somewhere else or concurrant with a discussion somewhere else?

Your primary point of difference from Col in your most recent post appears to be a disagreement with his views on homosexuals which are apparently the same as his views on transgender persons but his comments in here seem to be solely about transgender persons arguing they shouldn't get special toilets (which you agree with) with a few insults flung at them in the process (which you naturally oppose).

(Or did I put homosexuals in your mind by talking about the politics of GBLT? If so sorry if it created any confusion.)

Thanks

In earlier post you said:
"Gender identification is not just "all in the mind", as Col states so viciously and MJPB suggests far more compassionately. The most obvious cases of gender ambiguity are those little babies born with dual or indeterminate genitalia, while other people may have clear physical gender distinction, others may not."

My guess is that DNA testing would be the first port of call to making a determination but it is not something I had in mind. I was thinking of people with normal genitalia who come to believe that they are the opposite gender. They were the ones I had in mind as regards an "all in the mind" guess.