Frankie you don’t think someone can be born in to the wrong body but that they can have modifications and then they are still who they are? So until brain transplants come along or a gender defining medication you are saying is we are stuck with what we have got and should accept it yeah?

But you must know at another level until a woman “puts her face on” or a teenage boy is wearing the latest and coolest outfit they don’t feel as confident or okay with themselves. It changes who they are and how they face others/how others face them but you are opposed to this view society has? I agree but this subject is difficult for me to get a handle on.

I believe those two boys were girls no matter what the reason. One insisted however that when he grew up he wanted to marry a girl. I’m quite sure when they do grow up they will both be more feminine than your average female. They wont be comfortable just choosing one gender they will go above and beyond.

Hey – cause you are interested in this stuff…. With one of the boys I was told to not ignore the behavior any further (I didn’t mind him playing with dolls or acting like a girl). In future he had to only play with boys toys and stay away from girls. A local psychologist gave this analogy; to accept his current behaviour was like giving a person who liked stabbing others a knife. How’s that for society choosing who we are.

I will go read Judith’s thing again, I found it really confusing the first time around.

I believe society should be focused on respecting who individuals are without categories, Ladies Gents Undecided or maybe just individual toilets and changing rooms everywhere. No, I have no answer for the sports teams.[smile]

Foxy, love Bowie. And The Who “I’m a boy I’m a boy l but my ma wont admit it”.

There must be more than three aye Shadow Minister. Do we have “agender” like "asexual"?

It is quite simple really.
Are the chromosomes male or female.

If there are problems either mentally or physical then treatment to
push the child in the direction of the chromosomes would seem to be
the most likely to succeed process.

There might be some genes that are faulty but the newly developing
gene therapies may even be able to fix some of them.

The suggestion to have a third toilet facility is absurd.
Who is going to pay for that ?

Bazz:”If there are problems either mentally or physical then treatment to
push the child in the direction of the chromosomes would seem to be
the most likely to succeed process.
There might be some genes that are faulty but the newly developing
gene therapies may even be able to fix some of them.”

Bazz fixing them implies something is wrong. Who decides what is faulty and what was “meant to be”. How would we know if we are correcting something that was part of how humans were supposed to evolve?

I think (not positive) that Frankie was edging towards acceptance of the book rather than the cover.

Does the individual get to decide if they want fixing and in what direction? If society backed off would the person even notice something about them required alteration?

I dunno. The two young boys I knew came from different backgrounds, different families, and different races, raised in two different countries, and born over 18 years apart. I have no idea why they were the way they were but by age 3 in both cases they were on their paths.

Now my housewife friend that became a man, she’d spent nearly 50 years very female and the previous 25 a mummy and nana; her hubby had an affair and then they divorced and she thought men had all the power so became one. No hormone imbalance or wonky genes. Didn’t change sexuality (is that the right word?) because she continued to sleep with men albeit gay men.

It was interesting watching her transformation through the hormone shots. S/he got a lot slimmer, more aggressive, a lot more confident. Umm… cruder and more masculine in attitude than most men I knew. But happy, excited about who she was becoming

Moderator: any chance of getting these server errors fixed ?

Pied Piper,
>Who decides what is faulty and what was “meant to be

Simple the chromosomes, that *is* what was meant to be.
The Chromosomes are the book.

>she thought men had all the power so became one

If she thought she was a bird and could fly would you let her jump off ?
It really is quite simple. If it is a mental only condition then they
must be treated like the person who thinks they are a bird or
whatever else has taken their fancy.

>It was interesting watching her transformation through the hormone shots.

I wonder if her children thought it was such a good idea ?
Sounds very much like she needed some councelling and whoever
prescribed the hormone treatment should perhaps be reported for
malpractice.

If it is a physical problem then surgeons can do their best, or
perhaps hormones can make up for the difficiency that mau exist.

Dear Frankie,

The following website may be of interest to people:

http://www.isna.org/node/565

Its the Intersex Society of North America.

They say that it is vital to:

"Provide parents of intersexed newborns - and
within a couple of years, intersexed children
themselves, honest and accurate information about
intersex, as well as psychological counselling by
professionals who are not genderphobic, medical
help for any real medical problems, and referrals
to other people dealing with the same issues.
It was found that peer support, even informal, saves
families and lives."

There's also an interesting book listed on the
amazon.com website:

"Third Sex, Third Gender: Beyond Dimorphism
in Culture and History." (Paperback)
Edited by Gilbert Herdt.

And if people want to google - 'intersex Australia,'
there's quite a few interesting websites listed.

According to Reuters (Dec. 6, 2008)

" - Australia's official human
rights watchdog wants a third gender called
'intersex' to be created for use on official
documents like passports and driving licenses.
The Commission is a statutory body that advises
the Australian Government."

"Moderator: any chance of getting these server errors fixed?"

[smile] They really suck if you haven’t first typed it all up somewhere else aye.

“Simple the chromosomes, that *is* what was meant to be.
The Chromosomes are the book.”

What if they arn’t, what if humans are meant to change? Humans have already done a few leaps or we’d still be hanging out on the African plains. What if all humans were supposed to become transgender in thought first and it isn’t something that should be fixed? Among animals we evolved pretty quickly didn’t we?

Maybe we were all supposed to become autistic, that has had a rapid rise. I read this whole thing on men’s chromosomes becoming shorter so nature has already planned to be rid of the gender issue in a couple of hundred thousand years.

Ahh my friend did receive counseling; you have to before this kind of thing.

Jumping off would have killed her although, to me, becoming a man would make me want to jump off. But she wanted to become something that was possible these days. Her kids were grown, not their business really. At least she still has the choice to return if she decides to as nothing permanent was done but she did look like a bloke by the end of it.

It might be a new weight loss solution for females.

Foxy, what if they just took away the gender question in all forms everywhere? Not sure how I’d feel about it personally but might be worth it in the end.