Ok agreed, let's not separate higher education and vocational training then. I realise that a number of trades courses have components that would certainly be considered higher education.

They also do share most of the issues involved. Having revenue based business models as opposed to academic-based models of higher education is definitely an issue. However, it is a different point than 'impinging on the placement of Australian students'. This last implies that they are taking our kids places at uni and in other courses, when this seems unlikely and in fact it that they appear to be giving people jobs and expanding the educational base. If however, it was taken to mean that small courses, while providing excellent teaching to small numbers of students when deemed to be "inefficient" are amalgamated or done away with completely, then yes this has happened quite a lot over the last 20 years.

That is, impinging on our students quality of education or quantity?

Saying that we "were foremost in the world" and that now we are "poorly judged" appears to me to be a matter of personal perception. Do you have something that backs this up? I'm sure there's something you have that shows that our standards have slipped that is more than anecdotal.

Quality of education is always an issue and debating the merits of a business-based as opposed to academic-based model of education is welcome and needed. I also know many academics who feel frustrated at administrations focus on student revenue. You may try and lay it at the feet of Kennet and Howard but the 'user pays' system (by which I take it you mean HECS?) was started under a Labor government, presided over by John Dawkins in what is known as the Dawkins Revolution.

However, just as your last statement (which I wholly agree with BTW) shows, much of this discussion has not been about that.

A fascinating and important thread.

I confess that I had no idea that education is our third largest export earner. That's massive. Thanks for pointing out the Access report, CJ, it seems to coincide nicely with Banjo's original statement that there are around half a million overseas students here at any one time.

But what is staggering is the economic input - $13 billion of overseas earnings, half of which goes straight into the education system, presumably through the universities themselves.

On that basis, we should be very worried indeed about the current unrest, since every ten percent reduction in student population extracts half a billion dollars from uni budgets - that's a lot of unemployed lecturers we're looking at. As well as lost rental for student accommodation, and a major downturn in 7-11 store takings.

We are currently punching above our weight in this sector, with 7.5% of the world's overseas students coming here for their higher education. Presumably this is because of the quality of the product?

It is actually quite sad that the discussion started on such a xenophobic note. To view such a clear export success as being a problem can only indicate a knee-jerk fear of dem furriners, instead of an opportunity to build a strong response to the racism that so directly threatens our balance of trade.

But now that we are starting to understand the facts behind it all, I hope that the new awareness engenders some level of explicit support for the students and their presence here, and a resistance to their being used as target practice for racist hoons.

I would have to heartily agree Pericles, and also give thanks to CJ for that report link.

I must say, I have certainly learned something also, I had no idea that the education sector had grown so much in the last couple of years. How about that.

I still don't understand by which criteria that it is considered 'high' though (Banjo). Does that mean 'too high' (ie excessive) or just higher than it has ever been?

If the former, why?

I also hope that it has become more clear that what could be perceived as 'protectionist' (to use a much nicer euphemism) attitudes in these economic times could totally backfire and produce a much worse result for the whole economy and those they wish to protect than desired by it's proponents.

To Pericles.

I have not explained myself clearly. I hope I did not suggest that foreign students are displacing Australian students. Reading further comments, this would have been clear.
What is important is the knowledge and understanding of the course construction and materials; whether they have been de-skilled for non-English speaking students. In fairness, this should include Australian Students, given the poor literacy and numeracy levels of many students.
More information.
As far as the quality of university courses, I cannot comment other than to relay some of the common complaints from those teachers.
My comments should be understood as not a blanket statement covering all courses.
However, during my years of involvement as both a consultant and administrator of industry training I saw many courses de-skilled, not only for foreign students but also to meet industry venture requirement. In addition, I became aware of another problem that was becoming more common.
I believe the problem is greater, involving all levels of schooling.
My youngest son attended school when it was not considered necessary to spell correctly. Even phonetic spelling was accepted.
One essay received an “excellent " mark. He showed it to me and I pointed out the spelling and grammatical errors and asked to speak with his teacher.
The teacher informed me it was not necessary for him to know how to spell correctly, as long as he could communicate. I asked how could he communicate if he was unable to understand the work or could not read or write correctly.
He would find difficulty gaining employment with a legal or accounting firm. He would also find difficulty understanding university-grade research papers or technical documents. Phonetic spelling would not be acceptable in those instances.
We need to examine the whole system and ensure we have teachers who are well trained, qualified, and experienced. This applies right through the system. Again, let me reiterate. We need to look at the whole picture in order to solve problems, not just a tiny section. One piece of a jigsaw does not show the whole picture.
Regards
professori_au

pericles,
My original post was not put for 'fear about them foreigners' but being cynical about what our politicians are up to. Are they chasing the dollar instead of using our Unis/colleges for their original intention? Or are they allowing a backdoor immigration buisness to exist at the detriment of bona fide immigrants? I don't trust them.

While one is not up with what is happening in higher education, it is obvious that many are not happy with the standard of education, as can be seen here on OLO. I only received very basic education but my spelling/grammar is far better than many that are younger and I'll bet my knowledge of our history and my maths is better than a lot. So how can a non English speaking student or one that is illeterate get a pass? Courses deskilled to acomodate sounds about right.

I simply want to be assured that everything is above board and sweet. I do care how many foreign students are here as long as ours are not disadvantaged. My Telstra episode shows we cannot leave that up to commercial interests alone.

Seems more questions are being raised than answered.

Bugsy
Undouptly there is a cost of the high number of foreign students in Australia.
Undouptly many billion dollars go to business's hands.
While we do not know what they do all this money and I do not trust them I know who pay the cost for the big number of foreign students!
My poor, low income, part time Australian brothers and sisters pay the cost of the big number of foreigh students and Australian taxpayers!
The foreign students are not ONLY students but employees too.
My part time working sisters and brothers have huge financial problems, huge family problems of cause their low income, the international crisis make their conditions even worst AND WE HAVE 500000 FOREIGN STUDENTS WHO ARE READY TO WORK FOR VERY LOW WAGES, AND OF CAUSE THIS THEY GRAB THE JOBS FROM MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS!
Do not you think in these difficult times we must protect the basic interests from our low income labours?
Do not you think that we must separate foreign student's rights as students from their rights to work?
I do not understand why Australian taxpayers have to pay for the foreign students, and we pay to all australians who lose their job from the foreign students.
Can you estimate how much money we pay per year for 500000 unemployeed labours who lost their job of cause the foreign students?
Is it fair the businesses to take foreign student's money and low income empolyees and Australian taxpayers to pay the cost for the foreign students?
Bugsy, be honest, realy do not you see that the quality of studies for our students decreased of cause the huge number of foreign students?
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaid