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The Forum > General Discussion > Foreign Students, How Many?

Foreign Students, How Many?

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In the news about the attacks on Indian Students, afew figures emerged that are interesting and give rise to a number of questions.

It is said that there are some 500,000 foreign students here and that the estimated income from their being here ranges fromm $12.5 Billion to $16 Billion per year.

Firstly the number is high and one asks how many students can our universities accomodate and how many places are still available for our own students. Are our own students losing out?

Were not our Unis built with taxpayers funds and specificly to benefit Aussie students. So who and when was the decission made to turn our Unis into revenue gathering centres?

Why do not the foreign students get their education in their own countries?

Is it really a backdoor method of immigration whereby the students obtain permanent residency visas and how many get such visas per year?

Are the visas that the students obtain counted in with the number of incoming migrants each year or are they seperate and additional to the incoming number?

Just where does all the income from the foreign students go? it has been stated that it costs each student $40,000 per year.

I do not recall us, the taxpayers, being asked about this nor has there been information freely available.

Like multiculturalism, it just happened.
Posted by Banjo, Saturday, 13 June 2009 4:59:12 PM
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Very good questions, especially the immigration ones, I too would be interested.
As for the number of foreign students, I don’t know the actual numbers, but there are many commercial “campuses” set up in city buildings etc, catering almost exclusively for foreign students, and these wouldn’t exist but for this “trade”.
The more relevant question would seem to be the number of them in established, recognized Uni’s.
As for being asked, the Gov’ stopped doing that some time ago, look at multi-culturalism, PC insanity, foreign wars, foreign aid, immigration, privitisation, the list goes on.
Bring on CIR’s,……… I wish!
Posted by Maximillion, Sunday, 14 June 2009 12:28:54 PM
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Damned furriners again, eh Banjo?

All that information's readily available online and elsewhere if you were really interested in finding out the facts, rather than bleating on xenophobically.

But you're not, are you? You just want to whip your fellow travellers into yet another OLO frenzy of bigotry.

Yawn.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 14 June 2009 1:19:59 PM
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CJ, I think you might be a bit off the mark there. Those figures are not readily available, only statistics are, and we all know what they're worth!
If they are somehow accessible, please supply them for us, I've tried to finds them, unsuccessfully.
Posted by Maximillion, Sunday, 14 June 2009 2:39:18 PM
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Maximillion, I'm not sure what you're getting at about figures and statistics - they're just deifferent words for the same numbers, as far as I know.

The relevant Federal education website is down this weekend for maintenance, but I'm sure if you go to http://home.deewr.gov.au/ tomorrow you'll be able to find any number of relevant numbers - but whether you believe them or not us entirely up to you.

Meanwhile, this fact sheet on Overseas Students from the Dept of Immigration and Citizenship should be helpful:

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/50students.htm

Of course, you and Banjo could always just use Google yourselves, just like I did.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 14 June 2009 3:04:26 PM
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Well CJ, if you accept statistics as being the same as the real numbers, we have nothing further to discuss, different terms of reference.
I offer you the old wisdom, “There’s lies, d*mn lies, and statistics”.
Posted by Maximillion, Sunday, 14 June 2009 3:20:00 PM
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Max, statistics (at least of the descriptive kind) are just raw numbers organised so that the raw data they describe can be made sense of. What do you mean when you refer to "the real numbers", if that's not what you're after?

Like Banjo, it seems to me that you're speaking from ignorance, without any genuine desire to ascertain the facts about overseas students in Australia. In which case, as you say, we have nothing further to discuss.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 14 June 2009 3:35:45 PM
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Good Afternoon Folks,

There's no denying the fact that the international
student 'business,' is a very lucrative one for
Australia. I scrawled several websites - and was
truly suprised at the figures given - $15.5 billion
seems to be the most popular one - which is a heck
of a lot which ever way you slice it. And in addition
I was equally surprised to learn that there are also
about 130,000 Chinese students studying in this country.

The fact that problems exist however, can no longer be
swept under the rug. I read that in Victoria there's
going to be a Senate inquiry into the matter. Which
is a positive step. Another positive step in Victoria
is the increase of police in the Western suburbs - like
St. Albans, Sunshine, and so on. Extra policing is a
good deterrant.

Something obviously had to be done. We've always had an
excellent reputation as a safe country in which to live.
We need to find out exactly where the problems lie with
what's been happening lately, and what to do about it.

Things obviously can't continue to be ignored.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 14 June 2009 4:05:41 PM
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Statistics aside, there is no doubt there is much business being whipped up via foreign students and not all of it kosher.

The smaller business/trade colleges have been in the news a number of times over fraudulent activity. International students have become fodder for the greedy and amoral. This article is just one on this topic.

http://in.news.yahoo.com/137/20090612/738/tnl-australia-s-overseas-students-face-r.html

Australia would be better off setting up campuses offshore in partnership with foreign governments. Courses could be conducted in the relevant language making it easier for students to understand the coursework. This would have the effect of making study more relevant and inject qualified and trained professionals into those economies that need them the most.

A relative who works in a well known university is becoming sick and tired of the pressure to pass international students who do not speak enough English to be able to understand the course content let alone be able to write a paper or to sit exams with equal confidence of an English speaking student.

Education has become a business, it is no longer seen as an investment in the future. Under Howard, Universities became production lines with little spent on research functions.

At least under the current government and in the recent budget more money is being again invested in the research arm of the tertiary sector.

http://www.universitiesaustralia.edu.au/content.asp?page=/news/media_releases/2009/uniaus_media_05_09.htm
Posted by pelican, Sunday, 14 June 2009 4:55:13 PM
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With respect, Foxy, I suspect your figures may be a little out.
I seem to recall (and, I cannot grab the source at the moment) that the number of Chinese students (i.e. students from Mainland China, as opposed to Chinese from Malaysia ,Singapore etc) are greater than the number of Indian students.

And, as that inquiry we had to have:
“The fact that problems exist however, can no longer be
swept under the rug. I read that in Victoria there's
going to be a Senate inquiry into the matter…”
This is likely to be more about autopsying the incidents of violence than anything else. And if the past is any thing to go by, its findings, will be a newspeak pronouncement about the dire need for more policing and, even more dire need to EDUCATE the Australian community about TOLERANCE.
Posted by Horus, Sunday, 14 June 2009 5:22:46 PM
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CJ, I couldn’t let that pass, so I’ll make this simple for you.
The raw numbers would be the totals of students, in recognized or business model Uni’s, and the number who use that status and qualification to stay here. The actual, real, numbers.
Statistics involves sampling, and re-arranging the raw data into convenient mathematical expressions, changing it via various formulae. This enables the manipulation and hiding of the reality, and hence the old saying.
Look at the un-employment figures, they don’t dare allow anyone to collate the actual numbers, they use statistical analysis, sampling odd streets and suburbs in a few cities and towns, and then the games begin. This has been the modus operandi of Governments of all ilks for years now, pretty much since computers allowed it. Whatever “stats” are available are inherently unreliable, it’s the nature of the beast, unless you believe our Gov’ and PS are totally incorruptible and openly honest at all times.
PLUS, how dare you accuse me of ignorance for asking questions, what sort of elitist are you?
Other than disagree with you as to the validity of statistics, that’s all I’ve done, and admitted I did not know the actual numbers involved.
Is it considered ignorant merely to disagree with you? Are you that arrogant?
Posted by Maximillion, Sunday, 14 June 2009 5:31:05 PM
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Reasonable questions Banjo. People should take the time to ask and understand.

<<It is said that there are some 500,000 foreign students here and that the estimated income from their being here ranges fromm $12.5 Billion to $16 Billion per year.>> This is probably correct.

<<Firstly the number is high>>

Is it? How do you know?

<<and one asks how many students can our universities accomodate and how many places are still available for our own students. Are our own students losing out?>>

Not likely, foreign students are full-fee paying and universities actually increase the number of places to accommodate them. Many university courses are actually under quota for Australian-born students.

<<Were not our Unis built with taxpayers funds and specificly to benefit Aussie students. >>

Yes, and it benefits them a lot to be exposed to new ideas, cultures and people. Higher Education especially benefits from strong links to international students and other universities.

<<So who and when was the decission made to turn our Unis into revenue gathering centres?>>

It happened many years ago, I think it was around the time that HECS was instituted and universities were begun to be run a business model and administration was put into the hands of business managers and out of academics.

(cont'd)
Posted by Bugsy, Sunday, 14 June 2009 5:37:17 PM
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<<Why do not the foreign students get their education in their own countries?>>

Because ours is better, with a much better reputation. We have been advertising for students to come here for a long time. It’s called exporting education and it adds to the countries balance sheet.

<<Is it really a backdoor method of immigration whereby the students obtain permanent residency visas and how many get such visas per year?>>

No, the terms of student visas are quite clear. Post-graduate students (ie PhD or masters) can sometimes get permanent residency after graduation, but not all. For the stats you would have to ask immigration. But at least you know they're well educated and speak English.

<<Are the visas that the students obtain counted in with the number of incoming migrants each year or are they seperate and additional to the incoming number?>>

Again, immigration may have that info.

<<Just where does all the income from the foreign students go? it has been stated that it costs each student $40,000 per year.>>
Most stays within the university and pays for admin and course costs. In some course it actually helps to pay for what HECS does not. So Australian students actually benefit from them.

<<I do not recall us, the taxpayers, being asked about this nor has there been information freely available. Like multiculturalism, it just happened.>>

No, it didn’t just happen, it’s been happening for more than 20 years. Even though you were not personally consulted, the general public were told on almost continual basis for almost all of that time. Read the Higher Education section of the Australian or some other news publication that has a section that focuses on tertiary education. The government and university's administration does not door-knock.

It’s been a big push by the government because it means that they didn’t have to increase spending on the tertiary education sector as much as they should have. So now we actually need the foreign students, isn’t that ironic.
Posted by Bugsy, Sunday, 14 June 2009 5:39:11 PM
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1. Foreign students with Visas that have been issued after 26 April 2008 will automatically include permission to work while they are studying, they can work up to 20 hours a week during academic semesters and full-time during vacation periods.
The big number of foreign students and their right to work creates
problems to Australian labours and australian students.
In hard times like now, of cause the international financial crisis, foreign student's right to work CREATES PROBLEMS TO LOCALS!
But there is a small number of Australians who are against foreign studens, because they are racist!
2. Foreign students bring billions of dolars to Australia and when they return to their countries they behave like our ambasadors in their countries
They promote our values and they play an important role on the improvement of economic relations between Australia and their countries. Of cause the foreign students I believe that our exports to their countries will increase continously.
3. We have no problem if we allow millions of foreign students, they leave plenty money in Australia, BUT WE MUST CARE THE FOREIGN STUDENTS NOT TO CREATE PROBLEMS TO OUR STUDENTS AND OUR EMPLOYEES.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide
Posted by ASymeonakis, Sunday, 14 June 2009 5:50:13 PM
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Maximillion, I'll make this simple for you.

There is nothing wrong with ignorance unless it's denied. You need to not only overcome your ignorance of the difference between inferential and decriptive statistics, but also learn how to seek out valid and reliable information for yourself. I've provided you with a couple of links that will provide you with many of the numbers (i.e. descriptive statistics) that you seek.

Further information is abundantly available - the problem is in knowing what's reliable and/or valid. As far as Banjo's questions go, Bugsy's extensive reply pretty well answers them in general terms - all of which, as he says, have been relatively prominent in public debate for decades. And as pelican says, there have been negatives associated with the commercialisation of education that have also been well-reported.

Ignorance of these events is not because reliable and valid information has not been forthcoming - rather, it's because some people aren't interested... until it becomes a 'racial'/cultural issue. of course.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 14 June 2009 6:21:50 PM
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Wow - mind boggling stuff.

Thanks Banjo for asking all those questions -And Bugsy -
Thanks for providing all those answers. You live and
learn! Great stuff! I learned quite a lot from this
thread!

Horus - you're right about the Chinese student number
I quoted. I vaguely remember that number only referred
to students from China itself - not from any other
Asian countries. So, you're absolutely spot on!

I love threads like this one - where the info. just
keeps coming...

Good job.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 14 June 2009 6:21:57 PM
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Thanks all for your input and i hope to see lots more.

Pelican,
From your link, it appears that there are many more questions to be asked beyond what I listed. I do not think any would like to think that some are being ripped off.

Do you think there is need for a Parliamentry inquiry and how extensive should that be.

Bugsy,
Thanks for your info. I doubt I would get that from the Immigration Dept. Now I will get their website up and see what is there.
The 500,000 figure does seem high to me.

China and India are big countries and I wonder why they do not set up high standard Unis there. I can understand small countries and those with limited funds sending students here but not the large ones. I think it not unreasonable for us to offer scholarships to students in a number of small countries and it would be even better if their education was used to improve their countries. Somehow it does not seem right that we poach skilled workers from countries that need them themselves.

I have heard about 'mickey mouse' courses being offered purely so the students qualify for permanent residentcy, would you comment on this. Also what you think about an inquiry.

Yes, I am ignorant of many matters relating to higher education and took no interest until the main stream media brought it to attention. Its a bit like not being concerned about the school bus unless you have kids that use it
Posted by Banjo, Sunday, 14 June 2009 9:59:20 PM
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Banjo,

<<Thanks for your info. >>

You’re welcome

<< I doubt I would get that from the Immigration Dept. Now I will get their website up and see what is there.>>

Somehow, I also doubt that that info is there also.

<<The 500,000 figure does seem high to me.>>

I do not know the truth of that figure, but I cannot say whether it is high or not. But it appears to me that if there are 500,000 students paying for their study, then the government has transferred a severe funding shortfall to make up if they weren’t there.

But at a rough calculation of approximately 40 universities in Australia, with the largest (eg U.Melb) having international enrolments of approximately 10,500
http://www.services.unimelb.edu.au/careers/employers/recruit-info/intl-students.html

then that would give us less than a 500,000 total. Keeping in mind that most of the 40 unis are much, much smaller than that. This leads me to question the veracity of the statistic. Where did you spot it? Maybe we can track it down.

<<China and India are big countries and I wonder why they do not set up high standard Unis there.>>

They have, but they also have a billion people each and international education is highly regarded, many postgraduates return to their own countries to become quite good academics within thise universities.

<<I can understand small countries and those with limited funds sending students here but not the large ones.>>

We send our students overseas, and so do the Americans. It is a good practice to expose your next generation of academics to international education.

<<I think it not unreasonable for us to offer scholarships to students in a number of small countries and it would be even better if their education was used to improve their countries. >>

We do and it does.

(cont'd)
Posted by Bugsy, Sunday, 14 June 2009 10:42:15 PM
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<<Somehow it does not seem right that we poach skilled workers from countries that need them themselves.>>

We have been ‘poaching’ doctors and skilled workers for years from the UK, even when there was a shortfall in that country. We don’t need to ‘poach’ people, those that choose to stay do so usually not because of any incentives given on our part.

<<I have heard about 'mickey mouse' courses being offered purely so the students qualify for permanent residentcy, would you comment on this. Also what you think about an inquiry.>>

I cannot comment on ‘mickey mouse’ courses as I am unfamiliar with them and have never encountered them. They may exist, I really don’t know.

As for a parliamentary inquiry, I think that most of them are a complete waste of time. Might I ask exactly what this inquiry might cover?

<<Yes, I am ignorant of many matters relating to higher education and took no interest until the main stream media brought it to attention. Its a bit like not being concerned about the school bus unless you have kids that use it>>

You are not alone.
Posted by Bugsy, Sunday, 14 June 2009 10:42:44 PM
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We should be very worried at the prospect that many of our foreign students may go to overseas campuses.

With the introduction of HECS by Keating/Hawke and it's further expansion by Howard, those full-fee paying students are effectively subsidising our own local students.

Unless more money is put back into higher education, without the full-fee payers, we would be paying full fees (and more) just to cover costs.

Also, a huge part of the so-called surplus was actually made up of HECS debt. This debt will be repaid over a long period (and in some cases, not at all) so it's not really "cash in the bank" because it can't be spent until it's actually paid in. That's why we are borrowing against it now.

At least the foreigners are paying their way in full as they go and making a contribution to our economy.

The real problem isn't training people from overseas, it's our own trained people going overseas and taking their skills (and debt) with them.

As well as the prospect of earning more money, under the current education system, they have no moral obligation to stay here.
Posted by wobbles, Monday, 15 June 2009 2:25:32 AM
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Are you sure that the money we take from foreign students are used to extend the campuses, the laboratories, the number and quality of the personel of Australian Universities?
If while we bring more and more foreign students we do not extend our Universities in the same degree in which we increase the number of students of cause the foreign students, then we have a HUGE PROBLEM, THEN THE QUALITY OF THE STUDIES LOWER, THEN WE DAMAGE THE INTERESTS FROM OUR STUDENTS!
Who tell you that foreign student's money do not used with a stupid way, as usualy, who tell you that we do not have some GOLDEN BOYS in Universities? Who tell you that the monay are not wasted in luxures activities and trips, ignoring the basic needs of our students?
We trusted the corporations and they destroy our environment, we trusted the banks and they destroy our financial system, I do not know but the probability for huge problems in our universities of cause the big number of foreign students is very high, I guest we have HUGE PROBLEMS IN OUR UNIVERSITIES!
If governments, mass media or businesses do not speak about it is an other story, DO NOT YOU KNOW THAT ALWAYS THEY SPEAK LAST, WHEN THEY HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE?
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide
Posted by ASymeonakis, Monday, 15 June 2009 8:28:28 AM
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CJ, you embarrass and belittle yourself with your attitude.
You believe in Statistics, fair enough, that’s your prerogative, others believe in leprechauns, or Yetis, flying saucers etc, so you’re not alone.
Given that fact however, I won’t waste any further time on this subject with you, and accusations such as you make are the last refuge of the arrogant, disagreeing with you makes me ignorant? Hubris indeed!
Posted by Maximillion, Monday, 15 June 2009 12:30:04 PM
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I suspect from the little I have heard that some courses are no more
than routes to residency.
One Indian student said on the TV that the students do not report
robberies and assault to the police because if the accused says that
the student started the trouble it might affect their PR.
PR = Permanent Residency status.

It is hard to believe that it is not being abused.
Generally any loop hole will be exploited very quickly.
Posted by Bazz, Monday, 15 June 2009 1:09:35 PM
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Maximillion: << ...disagreeing with you makes me ignorant? >>

Disagreeing with me doesn't make you ignorant - but making incorrect assertions about a topic in which you obviously lack knowledge does. Refusing to acknowledge your ignorance just makes you look stupid, which is not the same thing.

I don't suppose you've bothered to try and locate the information you claim to want?
Posted by CJ Morgan, Monday, 15 June 2009 1:30:33 PM
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I am only concerned with the number of international students, if that should impinge on the placement of Australian Students.
Kennett and Howard were instrumental in creating universities where the user pays and this means the universities are basically "meat in the sandwich". Kennett's directive to the colleges to go and generate their revenue, has subsequently resulted in the commercialisation of our education systems. Even industry training has been effected. We no longer keep a pool of experience and knowledge developed by the older workers and this is no longer a benefit to those just entering industry.
With the de-skilling of trades and their replacement with "Mickey Mouse" training programmes we are facing the loss of experience, knowledge as well as quality education. this has given industry/commerce the opportunity to go to government and claim that there is not the required level of knowledge, experience, etc available in Australia so we need to import skilled people from other countries.
Why, Our education and training system was among the best in the world, so has government done?
Level Playing fields; Global Economy has meant share raiders are free to come in an destroy viable Australian companies and then claim they are no longer viable, so we need to move off shore to manufacture our goods!
It is not an issue of how many foreign students but whether Australians can access places in the system or without incurring a major debt that they are not able to repay. Britain found out the hard way under Thatcher and is in the process of re-introducing the old system of education and training. Britain still provides education to all levels of society, starting with its nursery levels right through to University. An education system that provides a sound introduction to literacy and numeracy and follow this up with a sound industrial education and training system. This includes the pure sciences. Pure science and Maths is no longer an option for students. Britain, unlike Australia, seems to consider a well educated work force an asset.
Posted by professor-au, Monday, 15 June 2009 3:41:05 PM
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Statistics?
What are they? The plaything of academics and are only of value when the parametres are set correctly.
I have worked in this area for many years and always check/question the parameters. If you want to argue a case then provide the statistics without the real base figures. Then you may manipulate them to obtain a pre-conceived value.

Providing the parametres and the real figures makes it more difficult to manipulate the data. I once had to write a reply on the government water strategy and within the first few paragraphs I could see errors within the data. In fact my coment was that it was a very poor document and one I would have expected better from a first year high school student. One error claimed that Geelong used 35 mg litres of water anually. Wow! With a population of some 200,000 Geelong has to be the most efficient users of water, both for its domestic as well as its industry, or, it has to be among the dirtiest people in the western world. Logically I know the figures are incorrect. However, if you publish the data then you have to be accountable. Eighteen and a half litres per person, wow!
The whole of the government document was full of such errors and my conclusion was that it was not interested in public comment but producing a document so the "peasants" would be impressed with such a large document:
Posted by professor-au, Monday, 15 June 2009 4:01:38 PM
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The easiest and most common form of 'lying' with descriptive statistics is to use them accurately, but selectively - i.e. featuring verifiable figures that support a particular agenda, while omitting others that might not.

Perhaps one of the most relevant documents to this debate is the April 2009 Access Economics report entitled "The Australian education sector and the economic contribution of international students" [ http://tiny.cc/bLXmI ], but strangely nobody here's referred to it.

Since I'm no longer involved in higher education, I hadn't read the report until stimulated to do so by this thread (thanks to Banjo for that, at least). Having now skimmed it, it looks to me to be quite reliable as far as it goes - but of course it doesn't purport to cover the kinds of issues that seem to concern him. and others.

Since the4 report appears to be one of the principal sources for recent media reporting on potential economic implications of the apparent crime wave against Indian students, I'm quite astounded that those at OLO who were apparently previously oblivious to one of Australia's major sources of export revenue haven't found the report for themselves. It took me about four clicks on Google to locate it.

I actually have numerous concerns about the current state of affairs with respect to the higher education 'industry', and I'm happy to discuss them with anybody who bothers to acquaint themselves with some of the abundantly available background.

However, I'm not the slightest bit interested in arguing with ignorant xenophobes who are stridently and latterly demanding to know why they weren't consulted in the development of one of Australia's most economically successful and sustainable industries.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Monday, 15 June 2009 8:23:21 PM
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Professor
You said "With the de-skilling of trades and their replacement with "Mickey Mouse" training programmes we are facing the loss of experience, knowledge as well as quality education. this has given industry/commerce the opportunity to go to government and claim that there is not the required level of knowledge, experience, etc available in Australia so we need to import skilled people from other countries"

That is something I can relate to. Years ago a Telstra (Telecom) linesman told me that all the NSW linesmans training facilities were now closed. He did not say about other states but said this was done to increase the profit margin to enhance the sale of the first part of the organization. I asked what is going to happen when the current employees kark it, and he shrugged his shoulders. It was only a year or two later that I saw ads in overseas papers that Telstra needed linesmen.

This is an example of how much big business cares for Aus. With this in mind, I do not doubt that Kennett told the Unis to generate their own funds and with Howards blessing.

Our young are missing out from Telstra and most likely from other places in the education/training systems. If so that does concern me. I am not concerned about having foreaign students here, but I do not wish to see them taken for a ride or that some are using it as a backdoor method of immigration. Not do I want to see any dissadvantage to our own students.

I wonder if the figures are padded out to improve the perceived importance of the 'industry' to the economy.

With the drop in secondary industry is seems illogical that we have a shortage of skills and need to import. Should this not be seen as a failure of government and industry?
Posted by Banjo, Tuesday, 16 June 2009 10:58:15 AM
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“Since I'm no longer involved in higher education,”
CJ.Morgan, I’m laughing at myself, I should have spotted the symptoms immediately, you’re a TEACHER!
The sneering put-downs, the arrogant pedantry, the dismissal of contrary opinions as “ignorance”, the demands for proper presentation and quoting of sources, the inability to listen to others, all the habits,… right up to and including…
“Have you done your homework yet?”
LOL, thanks for all the giggles, I’ll know better in future, and make allowances for your limitations. You should have explained sooner, I wouldn’t have written as I did, I thought I was talking to someone reasonable, lol
Posted by Maximillion, Tuesday, 16 June 2009 11:57:55 AM
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professor and Banjo,

I think it a mistake to equate higher education to what is happening in trades and industry education. The dearth of industry-based training has nothing to do with foreign student intakes.

Perhaps it should be suggested that industries that are suffering from a lack of trained individuals pull their finger out and pay for more training programs.

So, got something against teachers Max? Explains a lot.
Posted by Bugsy, Tuesday, 16 June 2009 12:19:44 PM
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More ignorance from Maximillion - there's tens of thousands of people involved in higher education in Australia, and the majority of them don't teach. You seem very happy in your ignorant state, so I won't bother to try and help you alleviate it in future.

Do have a nice, blissfully ignorant day.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Tuesday, 16 June 2009 12:19:52 PM
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Yes Sir, please sir, I 'ave a note frum me mum sir, can I be excused please? Sir? Sir?
lol, I never did get on wiv me teachers. Despite being a scholarship winner and school Dux, topping almost every subject in every year, I was a fool, and followed my wit, such as it was, and found my way in the real world, not some protected academical half-world. Half my family and friends are teachers, and I've dealt with them for twenty years as a parent, so I know the breed well.
I pity the lot of them, for their work environment, and their blindness.
You are a classic example.
Posted by Maximillion, Tuesday, 16 June 2009 2:13:44 PM
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I think you've confused higher education with high school, Max.
Posted by Bugsy, Tuesday, 16 June 2009 2:39:00 PM
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Bugsy,
Are you saying that all foreign students here are doing courses in higher education?

Are none involved in trade and industry courses?

A friend, in sydney, has 2 overseas student boarders, in their home, who are here studying english. Or perhaps I should say learning english. I have met them and as I understand it, they are deliberately boarded with families that only speak english, so they are sort of compelled to learn english. Nice young people too.
Posted by Banjo, Tuesday, 16 June 2009 2:42:56 PM
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I am not sure how to reply to your comment Bugsy. In some ways it seems to imply an elitist comment, yet I am not sure that was how it was intended. Separating Higher Education (Colleges and university from Industry Based Education and Training is not the way to go. Many academic qualification require industry based training and education and experience. Therefore, I would argue that both are part of an on-going education system without separation. There will be those who will opt out with getting a trade qualification and there will be those who will continue.
I have made many friends among university and trade training teachers and they are equally frustrated with the Howard/Kennet system of user pays.
I am not against oversea students and respect their right to go to any country where they think they may receive the sort of education they require.
I have tutored overseas students and find them, just as Australians, bright and keen to learn, so why have any prejudice against them?

Education from primary to university was developed to educate Australian citizens. Education from primary to university trained and educated ensured Australians would have the latest knowledge and experience along with the ability to be entrepreneurs so we were among the foremost in the world. Our researchers and developers were recognised worldwide. Our people were encouraged to move overseas.

Sadly this is no longer the case and Australia is becoming poorly judged.
Somehow, this priority of quality has lost out to asset and revenue gathering in the drive to generate revenue using overseas students as one of its bank books.
We now have a top-heavy administration wholly directed to revenue gathering and not towards quality education.
Some, not all, courses have been de-skilled to allow students, noticeably, non-English speaking students to pass their grades.
Posted by professor-au, Tuesday, 16 June 2009 3:56:20 PM
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Just a further comment:

We should remember that sad or bad news is good news for the media. It gets greater reading.
So I would urge caution about what the media is reporting on Indian students.
Check the nationality of all foreign students and you might find that the Indian student is a small proportion and those getting the media attention are a still smaller proportion.
Many foreigners refuse to play media games and concentrate on getting a good education
regards
Professori_au
Posted by professor-au, Tuesday, 16 June 2009 4:06:51 PM
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Ok agreed, let's not separate higher education and vocational training then. I realise that a number of trades courses have components that would certainly be considered higher education.

They also do share most of the issues involved. Having revenue based business models as opposed to academic-based models of higher education is definitely an issue. However, it is a different point than 'impinging on the placement of Australian students'. This last implies that they are taking our kids places at uni and in other courses, when this seems unlikely and in fact it that they appear to be giving people jobs and expanding the educational base. If however, it was taken to mean that small courses, while providing excellent teaching to small numbers of students when deemed to be "inefficient" are amalgamated or done away with completely, then yes this has happened quite a lot over the last 20 years.

That is, impinging on our students quality of education or quantity?

Saying that we "were foremost in the world" and that now we are "poorly judged" appears to me to be a matter of personal perception. Do you have something that backs this up? I'm sure there's something you have that shows that our standards have slipped that is more than anecdotal.

Quality of education is always an issue and debating the merits of a business-based as opposed to academic-based model of education is welcome and needed. I also know many academics who feel frustrated at administrations focus on student revenue. You may try and lay it at the feet of Kennet and Howard but the 'user pays' system (by which I take it you mean HECS?) was started under a Labor government, presided over by John Dawkins in what is known as the Dawkins Revolution.

However, just as your last statement (which I wholly agree with BTW) shows, much of this discussion has not been about that.
Posted by Bugsy, Tuesday, 16 June 2009 5:07:35 PM
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A fascinating and important thread.

I confess that I had no idea that education is our third largest export earner. That's massive. Thanks for pointing out the Access report, CJ, it seems to coincide nicely with Banjo's original statement that there are around half a million overseas students here at any one time.

But what is staggering is the economic input - $13 billion of overseas earnings, half of which goes straight into the education system, presumably through the universities themselves.

On that basis, we should be very worried indeed about the current unrest, since every ten percent reduction in student population extracts half a billion dollars from uni budgets - that's a lot of unemployed lecturers we're looking at. As well as lost rental for student accommodation, and a major downturn in 7-11 store takings.

We are currently punching above our weight in this sector, with 7.5% of the world's overseas students coming here for their higher education. Presumably this is because of the quality of the product?

It is actually quite sad that the discussion started on such a xenophobic note. To view such a clear export success as being a problem can only indicate a knee-jerk fear of dem furriners, instead of an opportunity to build a strong response to the racism that so directly threatens our balance of trade.

But now that we are starting to understand the facts behind it all, I hope that the new awareness engenders some level of explicit support for the students and their presence here, and a resistance to their being used as target practice for racist hoons.
Posted by Pericles, Tuesday, 16 June 2009 5:09:47 PM
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I would have to heartily agree Pericles, and also give thanks to CJ for that report link.

I must say, I have certainly learned something also, I had no idea that the education sector had grown so much in the last couple of years. How about that.

I still don't understand by which criteria that it is considered 'high' though (Banjo). Does that mean 'too high' (ie excessive) or just higher than it has ever been?

If the former, why?

I also hope that it has become more clear that what could be perceived as 'protectionist' (to use a much nicer euphemism) attitudes in these economic times could totally backfire and produce a much worse result for the whole economy and those they wish to protect than desired by it's proponents.
Posted by Bugsy, Tuesday, 16 June 2009 6:34:52 PM
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To Pericles.

I have not explained myself clearly. I hope I did not suggest that foreign students are displacing Australian students. Reading further comments, this would have been clear.
What is important is the knowledge and understanding of the course construction and materials; whether they have been de-skilled for non-English speaking students. In fairness, this should include Australian Students, given the poor literacy and numeracy levels of many students.
More information.
As far as the quality of university courses, I cannot comment other than to relay some of the common complaints from those teachers.
My comments should be understood as not a blanket statement covering all courses.
However, during my years of involvement as both a consultant and administrator of industry training I saw many courses de-skilled, not only for foreign students but also to meet industry venture requirement. In addition, I became aware of another problem that was becoming more common.
I believe the problem is greater, involving all levels of schooling.
My youngest son attended school when it was not considered necessary to spell correctly. Even phonetic spelling was accepted.
One essay received an “excellent " mark. He showed it to me and I pointed out the spelling and grammatical errors and asked to speak with his teacher.
The teacher informed me it was not necessary for him to know how to spell correctly, as long as he could communicate. I asked how could he communicate if he was unable to understand the work or could not read or write correctly.
He would find difficulty gaining employment with a legal or accounting firm. He would also find difficulty understanding university-grade research papers or technical documents. Phonetic spelling would not be acceptable in those instances.
We need to examine the whole system and ensure we have teachers who are well trained, qualified, and experienced. This applies right through the system. Again, let me reiterate. We need to look at the whole picture in order to solve problems, not just a tiny section. One piece of a jigsaw does not show the whole picture.
Regards
professori_au
Posted by professor-au, Tuesday, 16 June 2009 7:42:14 PM
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pericles,
My original post was not put for 'fear about them foreigners' but being cynical about what our politicians are up to. Are they chasing the dollar instead of using our Unis/colleges for their original intention? Or are they allowing a backdoor immigration buisness to exist at the detriment of bona fide immigrants? I don't trust them.

While one is not up with what is happening in higher education, it is obvious that many are not happy with the standard of education, as can be seen here on OLO. I only received very basic education but my spelling/grammar is far better than many that are younger and I'll bet my knowledge of our history and my maths is better than a lot. So how can a non English speaking student or one that is illeterate get a pass? Courses deskilled to acomodate sounds about right.

I simply want to be assured that everything is above board and sweet. I do care how many foreign students are here as long as ours are not disadvantaged. My Telstra episode shows we cannot leave that up to commercial interests alone.

Seems more questions are being raised than answered.
Posted by Banjo, Tuesday, 16 June 2009 11:44:30 PM
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Bugsy
Undouptly there is a cost of the high number of foreign students in Australia.
Undouptly many billion dollars go to business's hands.
While we do not know what they do all this money and I do not trust them I know who pay the cost for the big number of foreign students!
My poor, low income, part time Australian brothers and sisters pay the cost of the big number of foreigh students and Australian taxpayers!
The foreign students are not ONLY students but employees too.
My part time working sisters and brothers have huge financial problems, huge family problems of cause their low income, the international crisis make their conditions even worst AND WE HAVE 500000 FOREIGN STUDENTS WHO ARE READY TO WORK FOR VERY LOW WAGES, AND OF CAUSE THIS THEY GRAB THE JOBS FROM MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS!
Do not you think in these difficult times we must protect the basic interests from our low income labours?
Do not you think that we must separate foreign student's rights as students from their rights to work?
I do not understand why Australian taxpayers have to pay for the foreign students, and we pay to all australians who lose their job from the foreign students.
Can you estimate how much money we pay per year for 500000 unemployeed labours who lost their job of cause the foreign students?
Is it fair the businesses to take foreign student's money and low income empolyees and Australian taxpayers to pay the cost for the foreign students?
Bugsy, be honest, realy do not you see that the quality of studies for our students decreased of cause the huge number of foreign students?
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaid
Posted by ASymeonakis, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 1:26:55 AM
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We should welcome all foreign students and showcase our exemplary legal system, and our fair free and honest society, and lead the world by example. We don’t of course, because we don’t have a fair free and honest society, or an exemplary legal system. Oh yes we used to have one, before 1970, In New South Wales at least, but now we have gone atheist or pagan. I am sure most students from totalitarian regimes feel right at home.

When we had the revolution in 1972, led by the Labor Party, and set up the Republic of Australia, with a self governing Mini republic in the Federal and Family Court, we had no lawyers prepared to tell us we were going wrong. When we elevated our Lawyers to the Rank of Ayatollah, our foreign students felt right at home. So to do the Muslim Australians, who have been coming in increasing numbers. A student from Zimbabwe, or Singapore, found the same kind of Judge as they have at home. Our technology is pretty good, and our education in everything except law, is great. We do good science, we do good business, but we do shocking law.

Like Mohammedans, we have prophets who write rules. These Rules, were made paramount in 1970, in New South Wales when the Ayatollahs took over. We are now called to prayer in the House of Blasphemy, they still call the Supreme Court, but we cannot get justice there. We cannot get justice, because justice is now sold as it was in Jerusalem 2000 years ago, and still is in many of the countries where our foreign students come from, to the highest bidder.

The English took the New Testament to heart and decided on Christian Government in 1215. The Magna Carta became binding law, in 1297. It is the passage of Matthew 18 Verses 15 -20, expressed in Statute law, and it was overruled in New South Wales in 1970.

If we want to make a real difference to the World, before we criticize it, we should take the plank out of our own eye
Posted by Peter the Believer, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 5:19:53 AM
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Thanks Pericles and Bugsy. I've been trying to point out the economic importance to Australia of overseas students in general, and Indian students in particular, since the last mostly xenophobic thread inspired by violence towards Indian students [ http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2827#64373 ]. However, most OLO commenters haven't wanted to know.

What I find interesting in this thread is the insinuation that our provision of fee-paying education to foreign students is somehow responsible for deficiencies in Australian education systems in general. As I've also been suggesting, if those who make such insinuations actually bothered to do a modicum of research on the subject, they'd find that Australian universities and students have been increasingly subsidised by fee-paying overseas students.

The situations in primary, secondary and VET education are somewhat different, but I think to try and associate poor literacy and numeracy in schools, and the decline of industry-based training, on the export tertiary education sector is misdirected at best, and malicious at worst.

There are certainly issues with quality control in all educational enterprises, but as Pericles says the tendency by some to "...view such a clear export success as being a problem can only indicate a knee-jerk fear of dem furriners", and that's not only an indictment of those who hold such xenophobic views, but also quite literally a threat to Australia's economic well-being.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 9:35:56 AM
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As a member of Australian Union movement, member of AMWU- Printing Division - South Australia I call the secretary of the Australian Council of Trade Unions Jeff Lawrence and the National Secretary of Australian Manufacturing Workers Union , Dave Oliver to ask the government, the soonest posible, for the following :
1) cansel immediatly working permision for all foreign students with visas before 26 April 2008.
2) stop giving permision for work to any new foreign student.
3) decrease the working time of foreign students with visas after 26 April 2008 from 20 hours a week during academic semesters TO 10 HOURS PER WEEK and decrease the full-time during vacation periods TO 20 HOURS PER WEEK.
In these difficult days for Australian labours and their families we Must protect the basic benefits of our members and all Australian labours.
Antonios Symeonakis
Member of Australian Union Movement
Adelaide
Posted by ASymeonakis, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 10:50:20 AM
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If you are really serious about that Antonios, I would suggest that you contact the NTEU and the NUS before going much further.
Posted by Bugsy, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 1:13:22 PM
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I think Antonios may have misunderstood what is going on here.

The clue comes from these remarks of his:

>>Undouptly there is a cost of the high number of foreign students in Australia. Undouptly many billion dollars go to business's hands.<<

As I think we have managed to uncover quite explicitly, there is no "cost" involved in the use of our education system by overseas students. Only revenue.

The "many billions", as the report makes abundantly clear, goes into the Australian economy principally in three ways: fees, paid to the education establishment, accommodation, which goes to predominantly private landlords, and food, which - if students haven't changed much over the years - goes mainly to the corner milk bar.

The report even takes a stab at quantifying the additional revenues that come from visiting friends and relatives, so tourism gets a slice of the action too.

All of which makes Antonios' next sentence very difficult to understand:

>>While we do not know what they do all this money and I do not trust them I know who pay the cost for the big number of foreign students!<<

Actually, we do know specifically what they do with all this money. And they themselves "pay the cost", by bringing truckloads of money into Australia.

I sense his gripe is that they are allowed to do a limited amount of part-time work. I think this issue should be viewed against the significant number of jobs their presence creates.
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 2:45:22 PM
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Comment 1.
The importance of addressing your concerns is where they need to be addressed. I would state this should be government policy.
Do not lay blame against foreign students, who are trying to gain the best qualification to find a better life. Their own country is probably unable to provide sufficient places in their system, or that a "foreign qualification has a greater credence in their own country.
However, I do recognise the need and the right to address the Australian citizens’ concerns to government and not let political PR machine “flim flam” the public with its spin doctoring.
While the government has approved employing of foreign students, (adding to the competition for job vacancies), one has to question what rate of pay and how is this monitored?
I have spoken to many students door knocking sales for web services, power utilities and even telephone contracts.
You would be horrified how industry exploits these students. One student I spoke to had worked all day door knocking and earned approximately $10 for his efforts.
At the same time government and industry combined together to exploit or discriminate against Australians. These Australians are exploited through a system of part time or casual employment at minimum wages. Employed part time, etc, it is difficult to get out of the minimum wage pattern. Under the present Industrial Relations system and commercial job placement, each new employer is entitled to employ them at this rate.
Regards
professori_au
Posted by professor-au, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 3:55:35 PM
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Comment 2

Comment 2 extends arguments from comments 1; relating to the impact of government policy leading to industry exploitation on Australians. It questions the arrogance of government to expect its citizens to accept this.
The issue of foreign students employment alleged as taking work from Australian unemployed, is serious, but is just a minor part of the problems.
Furthermore is the issue of their conditions of employment and how thoroughly are they monitored.
Are they less than expected of Australians? If we accept the allegations of some students of wages earned, and then it is little wonder industry cannot expect Australians to work.
Under a sound Industrial Relations system these would be illegal.
However, the changes to Industrial relations law and practice introduced by the previous government enables unscrupulous employers to get away with it. We have yet to see how the Labor Government changes will work.
Having worked in Industrial Relations I can see the impact these changes are having on Australia.
There are many issues requiring to be addressed if Australia is to regain a reputation as the clever country. In the eyes of the world it cannot be considered that and perhaps is now judged as a gullible country.

When governments support bringing skilled trades’ people and professionals from overseas on the pretext of a skill labour shortage, which they and industry caused.

Another issue involves older workers. Research seems to indicate they must work much harder to prove he/she is still viable to employ. The productivity of younger people is excused because they are inexperienced, therefore, can be employed at a lower wage.

Had Government and industry continued to invest in education and training now instead of later, it would have a pool of skilled people in trades people and professionals. The longer this is left the worse the situation becomes.
Government PR machines claim it is spending huge amounts bringing our systems up to date. The present level spending will only replace the damage done by previous governments when policy dismantled much of the education and health system.
regards
professori_au
Posted by professor-au, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 7:36:48 PM
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Pericles
I like your jokes ! You do not care if 500000 foreign students work for $8 or $9 per hour or less. You are employer and you like cheap wages!
The question is what hapen with our labours who have to work for very low wages if they want to keep their job, how they can cover their basic expences, how they can care their children, what kind of care , how they can pay the rent or home mortgage, try to imagine their stress, to imagine their little children when they see their parents under these conditions. Soon or later our labors will lose their job, soon or later foreign students will grab the job from our people, they work for nothing!
Then Pericles we, the taxpeyers have to pay for our unemployees, for their rent etc. Can you estimate how much money we have to pay AND WE PAY for 500000 unemployees + for their children, rent assist etc?
foreign students cost millions of millions of dollars to Australian taxpeyers and create many and huge other problems for which we will pay in the future!
Do you know pericle? "some three-bedroom apartments can house 10 students, each paying $150 a week." That means they pay for a three-bedroom apartments $1500!
http://www.thecourier.com.au/news/national/national/general/overseas-students-abused-by-bosses-landlords-union/1492827.aspx

That means Pericle the rents touched the sky! We have to work for the landlords! That means the quality of our life, the quality of our children life is very bad, with very negative consequences for the future of our country, THAT MEANS AUSTRALIAN TAXPEYER'S MONEY FOR RENT ASSIST TO UNEMPLOYEES, STUDENTS, RETIRED PEOPLE ETC WILL TOUCH THE SKY TOO!
Pericle I am afraid you programed your eyes to see ONLY what you want to see, and you see the profits from the businesses and you do not see and do not care at all for the cost to our low income employees and their families and you do not see the huge costs for Australian taxpeyrs.

professor-au, THANK YOU!

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide
Posted by ASymeonakis, Thursday, 18 June 2009 12:56:16 AM
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Thank you, Antonios.

>>Pericles I like your jokes!<<

As your example clearly demonstrates, there are Australian employers who exploit the students as slave labour.

But as the article also clearly states, this is illegal

Nor is it a good idea for Australian businesspeople to entice foreign students here under essentially false pretences, as your example also shows.

But as the article also clearly indicates, this is thoroughly irresponsible, should be exposed and eliminated.

I don't think it is a very convincing argument to use illegal acts and dodgy practices as the justification for booting out all foreign students.

You paint a very emotional picture, by the way, of the poor starving children, whose livelihood has been snatched away by the hordes of rapacious students...

>>...how they can cover their basic expences, how they can care their children, what kind of care , how they can pay the rent or home mortgage, try to imagine their stress, to imagine their little children when they see their parents under these conditions.<<

...but I think you will find that the students are doing what all kids at that age do, sweeping out the kitchens at Red Rooster, or filling supermarket shelves at 2 in the morning. I doubt that there is a great deal of possible substitution going on.

But if you have some real-life examples, by all means share.

>>You are employer and you like cheap wages!<<

Not at all, Antonios. My people are paid very well for what they do, and as a result I get exceptional work from them.

>>Pericle I am afraid you programed your eyes to see ONLY what you want to see, and you see the profits from the businesses and you do not see and do not care at all for the cost to our low income employees and their families<<

On the contrary, I do care a great deal. However, I also make sure that I deal wherever possible in facts, rather than emotional observations about stressed kiddies.

I'm surprised you didn't mention their becoming orphans, due to the horrendous conditions in the workhouse.
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 18 June 2009 11:56:33 AM
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Hi All,

I am not an advocate for cheap wages, foreign students or Australians.
One area I have had experience is investigating wage complaints.
People are funny "critters".
A problems faced by government and that resulted in officers only being allowed to investigate a complaint when the client asked for the investigation, Then the investigation only related to that specific complaint and not any of the others, even when we knew it extended to others, unless the department was carrying out an investigative raid.
The reason? If you were to investigate, despite the fact that all may be paid low wages, and they lost their job they would complain to the department, hence the directive only to investigate a complaint on the client's request. Besides that, the department was usually understaffed to be able to investigate all cases of companies breaching wage compliance regulations. Subsequently we patched the holes and not the problem.
An employer most of my life, I believe that a fair day's work receive a fair day's pay. Respecting your employees, you will receive respect and in addition, receive loyalty.
Today, career paths seldom exist, or are limited for most employees. Receiving no loyalty from many employers, so how can a business expect loyalty in return?
One employer’s philosophy was that if he did not “kick their A…” the employees knew they were ok. I said that I had seen his face light up when he was praised him for a good job; surely, it would be reasonable for his employees to expect the same and receive credit as well as criticism. He could not accept that. Unfortunately, there exist some employers with a mindset that treats employees as no more than equipment. “They should be grateful they have a job”. If they did not like then leave, there were plenty of others waiting to take their place.
Social justice moves slowly, because of differing attitudes/mindsets of different employers. In addition, directives from head offices of overseas companies influence some attitudes. The “bean counter bottom line is all that counts in a highly competitive world.
Regards
Professori_au
Posted by professor-au, Thursday, 18 June 2009 12:06:08 PM
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Pericles
"this is illegal" Welcome Pericles to our planet!
The law is good for the rich people not for employees! The law is good for the people who can claim it, not for employees! If the cost for an employee is much higher by claiming his/her rights then simple they shut up their mouth! Do not you know it Pericles?
If an employee is pushed at the corner and he is in difficult financial condisions, as usualy for low income employees, THE LAW IS TOTALY USELESS. Print it on a nice paper and hung it on the wall!
One year before I asked the real estate agent to fix the water of the units I rented. She did not do anything I asked her second time and instead to fix it she said me in writing to leave the unit because I breached the contract! She wrote that I did not pay for 4 weeks the rent! I was paying direct from the bank, I had the statements that they took the money.
They pressed me with this cheap dirty way because they did not like to spent some money to fix the water!I was there more than 7 years! No repairs no maintenance! At the end they said me that I did not pay to them $10. When I left the unit they gave me a cheque of $10, they was wrong! I have all the evidents in my hands. Do you think it is easy for me to change place? What if these irisponsible people report me tho landlord's association? They could block me to find an other unit/house.
The law and justice system is a much bigger JOKE than your little jokes!
If I find my right in the court but I lose my job and I can not find an other one, my claim for my rights could be a disaster for me!
We need the UNIONS!
OUR LABOURS ARE IN VERY DIFFICULT POSITION OF CAUSE THE FINANCIAL CRISIS, FOREIGN STUDENT'S RIGHT TO WORK IS A DISASTER FOR OUR LOW INCOME EMPLOYEES!

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide
Posted by ASymeonakis, Thursday, 18 June 2009 2:20:25 PM
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ASymeonakis

RE: Tenancy

Sorry to hear of your experience and generally I would agree it is difficult for those on low income.
That is why I work as a volunteer community advocate since my retirement.

However, to the point.
In Victoria, if you have a tenancy problem you can apply to have it redressed through VCAT and the Tenants Union.
I would have thought that you would have that option in SA. Did you claim you bond back? You would have been entitled to do that unless you had damaged the property in some way. This is where the Tenants Union should be able to help.
Regards
professori_au
Posted by professor-au, Thursday, 18 June 2009 4:15:55 PM
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Everything these days is based on numbers,statistics and profit - everything is being CORPORATISED - people are under stress everywhere. Quality of everything is being compromised because we are all too busy trying to keep our job and keep up stats requirements. It is all short term thinking and who cares of about the consequences. Fraud has become acceptable - finance industry for example.
Posted by Constance, Friday, 19 June 2009 12:16:17 AM
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professor-au
I wrote this example to show how cheap, how idiot are many people and how easily and often they violate people's rights! In my case when I asked them to fix the water they said me that I did not pay the rent for four weeks and asked me to leave the unit! But I paid it threw the bank and I have had the statements, they did not fix the water and I left the unit when expired the contract. I took the bonus.
I MEAN IN EVERY STEP I DO I SEE CHEAP PEOPLE VIOLATING PEOPLE'S RIGHTS!
IT IS SEEMED TO ME THAT TO BE A MIGRANT, A SOLE PARENT, (I WAS BOTH) TO BE IN DIFFICULT POSITION IS A PROVOCATION TO VIOLATE YOUR RIGHTS!
professor-au Thank you for your interest!
I was working for many years in the Unions overseas and I trained my self to smell, to see the unjustice from very far!
Employers have improved abilities to smell, see the money and profit from very far BUT DO NOT ASK SOME OF THEM FOR JUSTICE, THEY DID NOT DISCOVER IT YET, SOME OF THEM DID NOT DISCOVER YET WHAT IS SOCIAL SENSITIVITY AND RESPONSIBILITY!
professor-au THANK YOU FOR EVERYTHING. We need people like you, continue writing in the forum.
You are not only very experienced and well educated person but you are a fair, honest and mature person.
Thank you
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide
Posted by ASymeonakis, Friday, 19 June 2009 12:32:52 AM
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Constance
"Everything these days is based on numbers,statistics"
What kind of statistics? There are statistics which show the truth and other statistics which hide the truth.
The international financial crisis caused in high degree of cause the numbers and statistics!
Usualy banks first create a baloon and after start to use the numbers and statistics about the growth of the baloon!
We know at the end what hapen with the baloons but then it is very late!
Statistcs and numbers could be usufull if they created from fair and honest people for fair and right goals, if they created to hide the truth, to cheat people and grab their wealth then statistics and numbers are very dangerous!
I prefer instead to read the statistics to "read" the moral code of the people who created them!
Antonios Symeonaklis
Adelaide
Posted by ASymeonakis, Friday, 19 June 2009 12:55:24 AM
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An important point being missed is that BOTH foreign students and employers are equally able to play the role of exploiter.
--- the student working outside of visa conditions.
---the employer paying less than the legal rate.
Neither, is likely to expose the other --unless there is a falling out -– because both are getting more than they would under normal circumstances.


It is a symbiotic relationship: the student is not an (innocent) loser in such a transaction– true, they are getting RELATIVELY less than a non-foreigner, in the same occupation– but, they are earning more than the honest, foreign student or unemployed local who are playing by the rules.

The real losers are those on the lower rungs in the host community, who as Antonius has point out (and, quite well!) inherit the resulting higher rentals , reduced employment opportunities and welfare bill. (PS I notice from one of CJs links it not only about students working --- there is also provision for an accompanying adult to work – so what ever applies to -- students-- is also likely to be true regarding their working guardians).

While I am not suggesting that all students, or all employers, are in on the racket – I would suggest it is far from rare.
It would be even more difficult to measure the extend of such rorting than the revenue stream -– and the best revenue estimate is a SPAN from 12.5 --$16Billion! --- more than a bit of room for error!
Perhaps we should contract the same Chaser team (now they’ve got a week to spare) who gave us the rubbery, revenue figure to come up with a rorting estimate also!

And as for: “but I think you will find that the students are doing what all kids at that age do”
Unfortunately, not “all kids ” are able to find employment “sweeping out the kitchens at Red Rooster, or filling supermarket shelves at 2 in the morning” because opportunities are very limited –and made even more limited by the presence of non-citizens willing to undercut.
Posted by Horus, Friday, 19 June 2009 6:33:32 AM
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Horus
Thank you!
The truth is that government and employees do not care very much for low income employees.
The truth is that federal or state governments do not care ver much for taxpeyers money.
The truth is that they avoid to use their brain very often!
There are many solusion for this problem but they was lazy and they did not do anything for the solusion of the problem, exept from thinking forein student's billions of dollars!
They did not care for the cost from the huge invasion of foregn students.
WHEN THE BUSINESSES AND GOVERNMENTS DECIDED TO BRING A BIG NUMBER OF FOREIGN STUDENTS THEY HAD FIRST TO CHECK FOR ANY NEGATIVE CONSEQUENSIES AND TRY HARD AND FAST TO MINIMIZE THE COSTS FROM THE BIG NUMBER OF FOREIGN STUDENTS.
They did nothing!, one more time they transfer the cost to the low income employees and Australian taxpeyers.
As a union member I try to "press" the Australian Union Movement to support australian low income employees and protect australian taxpeyers money BUT i do not know if I can do many things.
I WANT TO STOP IMMEDIATLY THE PERMISION FOR WORK OF FOREIGN STUDENTS.
The Australian Union movement is controled in high degree from the labour aristocracy, the white collars who do not understand and care very much for the low income labours AND the Australian Union Movement is extremely close to ALP and often follow it, even if with this way they damage the interests from the UNION MEMBERS.
I am a simple member of the Union and I try to support the Union members IN NEED, the australian low income employees.
The huge number of foreign students, their right to work in these hard times of cause the international financial crisis etc, IS A DISASTER FOR AUSTRALIAN LOW INCOME EMPLOYEES!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide
Posted by ASymeonakis, Friday, 19 June 2009 11:06:43 AM
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Antonois, Horus, and Professor,
As I see it you all make good points. All 'industries' have a cost. No one should think that the money earned from us having foreign students is all fresh foreign income with no costs.

Firstly, there is the money earned here by the students and their guardians. Information seems lacking in this regard but could be up to around 25% of the estimated income.

Secondly there is the impact on the employment opportunities for Australians seeking the same type of work.

There is also an impact on the rental market. What landlord is going to rent to a family if he can get far more from a bunch of students?
This adds to the scarcity of places to rent.

Then you have the additional 500,000 traveling daily which adds to our transport conjestion.

If Australian workers are disadvantaged by Telstra's actions relating to training linesmen, are others similarly disadvantaged.

Then are the suggestions that some foreign students are being ripped off by employers and others are working far more than allowed by law.

If Antonios suggestion is taken that foreign students not be allowed to work at all, it may have the effect of more working illegally and more being taken advantage of by unscrupulous employers.

Bugsy,
I cannot find anywhere on the Immigration website, information about how many 'permanent resident' visas are granted annually to holders of 'student' visas. It appears that about 250,000 student visas are granted each year. There is no email address, so conventional mail will have to be used and that could take 2-3 months to get a reply, but has been sent anyway.

I really hope that there is only a few PR visas granted of which none involve enrolments at 'mickey mouse' courses.
Posted by Banjo, Friday, 19 June 2009 2:57:37 PM
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Foreign students with the majority of them coming from developing countries have been dubbed the "New Asylum Seekers". They check the skilled migration jobs list and study the course that will get them residence, especially in hospitality, hairdressing. I have heard a Chinese student interviewed on ABC Radio National who thinks it is strange that he speaks mainly Chinese in an English speaking country to his classmates - as it is about 60% foreign students doing his course. He said he is finding it difficult to learn English. Only in recent times has there been more emphasis on English requirements for student visas, as before, the education providers did not care much about English language skills as all they wanted was the foreign students' money! ...cont
Posted by Constance, Friday, 19 June 2009 3:54:29 PM
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I have also heard other various interviews from relevant parties from Radio National that the large percentage of foreign students (at least 25%) is becoming a problem. I have also heard personally that foreign students are taking preference over locals for placements in high schools - at schools where their parent had attended and wanted their own child to go to same school. There is also a lack of housing everywhere which doesn't help issues. Our migration intake is bigger than ever and our current infrastructure is unable to cope - let alone the effects on water shortages and other environment concerns. Universities have become administrative bureaucracies and a significant number of dodgy colleges have arisen to mainly cater for foreign students. Academic quality it seems is going down the drain. Politically correct debates are only acceptable in the education institutions these days. Goodbye sincere intellectual inquiry - it is deemed too dangerous.
(I tried to post this article before my previous comment without success last night.)
Posted by Constance, Friday, 19 June 2009 3:59:43 PM
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Banjo
If we know that it is illegal for foreign students to work, if employers know that they will pay a hard fine if they employee foreign students, then Australian labours know what to do.
I do not say 100% of foreign stuidents will stop working but sure most of them. If we sent home any one who work illegaly then I am sure they will not risk any more their studies in Australia.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide
Posted by ASymeonakis, Saturday, 20 June 2009 12:23:57 AM
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ASymeonakis, and Banjo

Think about the implications from a case study.

A wage complaint was laid against a textile industry employer. When the inspector called to investigate, the employer pulled out his chequebook and said, "How much do I have to pay?

This type of employer is usually philosophical about having to back pay for one complaint. He/she knows they have several others employed who will not complain. So what is the net outcome?
The employer is already making a profit on the other illegal employment. Paying out for one, the employer is still ahead. That employee would have left the company before making the wage complaint.
Remember my earlier comment stating that an inspector may only investigate that complaint unless the others ask for a whole investigation. This would require consensus of all the workers.
I will add this was the position when I worked for the government.
What the present situation is, what with self-regulation, and privatisation of employment agencies and education and industry training, I cannot comment.
I retired at the end of 1994, although continue to work as a volunteer community advocate.
It is while working as an advocate, I hear complaints and I remember advising one young person to go back to their case manager and tell them what was happening.
Contacting me later, he told me that he had been advised, “You should thank your lucky stars you have a job. There are others waiting to take your place”.
However, I would defend Australians of English origin are not all responsible for the racism and exploitation. Many immigrants settling here from other countries or their children are just as bad.

A member of this forum questioned the accuracy of the statistics and figures quoted for foreign students.
When statistics are quoted without the figures or the source of the data, I am cynical and remind you of an old saying “add a pinch of salt”. With some of the government figures and other sources, I would recommend adding the bag and keeping the pinch of salt:).
Regards
Professori_au
Posted by professor-au, Saturday, 20 June 2009 11:40:58 PM
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