Peter the Believer wrote: The scoffers concentrate on detail without understanding the great practical advantages of Protestant Christianity, and its adoption as the State religion of England. It became the State religion of Australia in 1900, and S 116 Constitution was supposed to make it stay that way.

Dear Peter the Believer,

Australia is not a Christian nation. Despite vigorous assertions to the contrary, it never has been.

Those two sentences begin "Church and State" written by Tom Frame, Anglican Bishop to the Australian armed forces. The book probes the relationship between church and state in Australia and raises the question of separation between the two. Frame includes a section for further reading at the end of the book. I suggest Frame's book as a corrective to the posts of Peter the Believer.

Which Bible are we talking about?

I recently looked a 'new translation' used by Pentecostal churches and it is a re-write of an already re-written (many times) document. It goes under the name of the 'American Standard' Bible.

'Deliver us from evil' has been re-written to 'Deliver us from the evil one' and so on. This is but one example of this Bible being re-written to suit a particular agenda.

But then I suppose the Bible has always been a political document. It started as a political document and has been continuously revised as 'new translation' to suit changing political needs. Use the Bible if you want (which ever version suits your political needs) but can we please stop claiming that there is any authority to be derived from it.

The real problem with the Bible is that it is claimed to be the work of God and that there are those who try to claim that it gives them the authority to speak on behalf of God. That is the real issue in this debate. The reason for claiming the Bible is somehow derived from God is the claim to power and authority to 'rule' on behalf of God.

Does anyone have the authority from God to tell us how we shall run our lives? Does anyone have the authority to compel those who do not want to join their club to obey their rules? Does anyone have the authority from God to suppress 50% of the human race (women)? Does anyone have the authority to order us to declare war on others?

These comments on the non-authority of the Bible applies to the Koran and Jewish 'Holy' books as well. How many wars have we had, and are still having, because someone claims that their holy book gives them the right to declare war on behalf of God?

I feel sorry for God if it exists. It gets all the blame for everything but has nothing to do with anything. We are the problem, not God

There's already been a period in human history where the Church and State were one.

Religion decided what was right, what laws and punishments should apply and how society should function and behave.

It was known as "the Dark Ages".

Society works by making compromises and taking various options as determined by circumstances. Belief systems do not.

I’m afraid Peter I can’t bite my tongue any longer. To sanctify Brian Huston while calling the High Court the Temple of Mammon is just a little beyond the Pale.

Here is a bloke who has spat in the face of Jesus’ unequivocal messages about the rich and written a book titled “You Need More Money!”. In my opinion he is about as close to the notion of true Christianity as the KKK, one of the “spivs and conmen” you accuse the legal profession of being. To quote; "anyone who puts the Kingdom of God first (rich or poor) can expect bible economics to work in their life NOW".

If you subscribe to his teachings on this matter, indeed the whole prosperity gospel tripe, I would love to know how you can claim to be a Christian. How does one get a camel through an eye of a needle?

You earlier stated that “Jesus Christ said: In Matthew 6 verse 24, that no man can serve two masters.” in making your argument about the High Court. The full verse actually reads “No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.” NIV

I am interested to know why you misrepresented the true meaning of the message when using it to make your point? Although Brian seems to make a habit of just that. I see it as a form of biblical abuse, the likes of which would appear to validate OP2’s argument about the misteaching by some of the people in power in some of our churches.

Thankfully it is not as widespread as she would have us believe, however it is still damaging to the faith. Indeed it can easily be seen as a form of blasphemy.

Therefore Peter the Believer why shouldn’t you be regarded as a blasphemer?

The image I have of the Bible is of a preacher spewing fire and brimstone with a Bible held high waving around in his left hand and claiming the Bible gives him authority to speak on behalf of God. Plenty of 'the word of God' as the Bible is thrust skywards.

Total rubbish of course, but see the congregation waving their arms in the air crying 'I believe.' In the last Church I went to, to see the current state of corruption for research for a new book, this spectacle was immediately followed by a direction that the more people gave the more they would receive. The 'automated' collection followed and within 5 minutes at least $20,000.00 changed hands. Three times every Sunday plus weekly meetings equals a lot of (tax free) money.

The highlight for me was a slip by Pastor Baker when he said 'In this business' followed by a short pause before continuing 'In this business of saving souls'.

Communion was self service with little cups of wine and biscuits passed around. I have to admit it was a very slick operation. So this is the new Christianity.

So why doesn't God put a stop to this bull (and war and poverty etc)? We have free will. If we want to replace a sense of being with ceremony, rules, regulations and being 'poor sinners' there is nothing anyone, not even God, can do about it.

The more I participate in OLO discussions along these lines the more I appreciate I am not opposed to the concept of an unknowable force in the Universe. What I am opposed to is those who claim speak on behalf of God and the Havoc they cause in the world.

But I guess there will always be a new messiah for the people to follow like sheep. And invariably the new messiah will have a book. The Christians have the Bible. Its not the Bibles fault, it is just words on paper. It’s a people problem. Until people stop 'Believing' and start thinking we are stuck with religions and their holy books.

Hi Daviy,

Yes, the description does read as a spacecraft orbiting Earth. Also, it is noteworthy Enoch travelled to the ends of the Earth, where in the North he encountered snow: An interesting comment given the Principal in the account lived in the Middle East.

Moreover, I follow the ranks of the crew, as you posit.
The above said, significant claims would require collaborative support. So, there seems the need to triangulate the observation from other sources. Also, the question of, “when,” comes to mind. If all humanity had its DNA altered by communion with the Watchers, the event would likely that the event occurred around 16,000 year BP, to account for the homogeneity of Homo Sapien Sapiens, linked to Ice Age migration.

The (sinful) transgressions appear to involve the providing knowledge to humanity. This corruption is a theme existing in Christian mythology and elsewhere too, Prometheus and Pandora. To digress to Star Trek, interference by a highly technologically superior civilization, could be breaking a “Prime Directive”.

Given we know there are beings (us) intelligent enough to travel in space and that our true Science is really only existed since the Great Divergence (c. 1760) and, that Newtonian mechanical world and thinking were supplanted in the twentieth century; the notion of ETs, while “out there” (ahem) is certainly more compatible with the observable than the idea of a divine God. I mention a divine God, as distinct from an envisaged God, with recall to the Cargo Cults in WWII New Guinea, wherein aircraft were seen by primitives to be sent from the gods.

Many readers would see your claim as highly speculative a - as would I. Yet, given universalities throughout the Cosmos, the claim a civilization 16,000 BP was cable of what we humans, will capable of 16,000 years AP, is more presentable than a extra mundane, extra cosmological divinity.

Csteele,

Rabbi Kyshner refers to is what some philosophers call, “subsistence”. The sub-existence of fictional characters which don’t truly existence, yet do exist within a culture: e.g., Venus, Superman, Yahweh & Snoopy.