*Are you implying that being a vegetarian or vegan is “leading no life at all”? *

Absolutaly not. What I gather that you are claiming, is that by
not eating meat, people will reduce the suffering of other species.
In other words, if some species were not farmed at all and had
no life in the first place, the world would be a better place.

Now we also know that millions of people live very sad lives, far
worse then a great many livestock. Would they too be better off
having lived no life at all, as you seem to imply is the case
with free range animals?

For by not eating meat, you are including all farmed animals,
not just factory farmed ones. Otherwise you would have drawn
the line at factory farming, not at eating meat.

As far as the environment goes, once again, what would happen if
all livestock grazing would shut down tomorrow? Much land is
simply unsuitable for cropping and continous cropping is not
very sustainable in the first place.

What would happen is that those grasslands would grow huge amounts
of biomass. In summer, when it all dries out and lightning strikes,
the whole lot would burn, as Canberra found out, when parts of that
city started to burn.

So my point is that free range livestock grazing, if done
sensiblely, is both sustainable and environmentally acceptable,
compared to the options. Eating those livestock is not cruel,
for the other choice is to leave them to the worms to eat, as will
happen to you when you die.

Jonothan Byrd “Showing disrespect in such a manner to ideas born of compassion is a little on the base side”

Just as we are both free to choose what we eat,

we are free to hold and express our respective opinions on woodland-pixies.

Suggesting my comments are “a little on the base side” sounds a bit defensive of you too.

But I do hope you stick around,

We are going to have lots of fun together….

Yabby “what would happen if
all livestock grazing would shut down tomorrow?”

I guess the land would return to the wild and Roos would abound…

but Skippy tastes good too

actually I would appreciate any Roo Recipes if you have any :-])

Yoohoo Boazy aka Polycarp - It is I - the resurrection. Behold the return of St Dickie - Head Heretic! Yay!

“Forbid us, LORD, our daily meat. Give us our daily bread………. genuflex, genuflex. Spectacles, testicles, wallet and watch. Amen.”

So many gods, so many creeds,
So Many paths that wind and wind,
While just the art of being kind
Is all the sad world needs.

I am the voice of the voiceless:
Through me, the dumb shall speak;
Till the Deaf world’s ear be made to hear
The cry of the wordless weak.

From street, from cage and from kennel,
From jungle and stall, the wail
Of my tortured kin proclaims the sin
Of the mighty against the frail

For love is the true religion,
And love is the law sublime;
And all is wrought, where love is not
Will die at the touch of time.

Oh shame on the mothers of mortals
Who have not stopped to teach
Of the sorrow that lies in dear, dumb eyes,
The sorrow that has no speech.

The same Power formed the sparrow
That fashioned man-the King;
The God of the whole gave a living soul
To furred and to feathered thing.

And I am my brother’s keeper,
And I will fight his fight;
And speak the word for beast and bird
Till the world shall set things right.
(Ella Wheeler Wilcox)

“Yes I remember you too fight that battle. Dickie do you know I truly often think of your battle with your health? And that I often put your uncontrolled anger down to that?

Well think again dearly demented. I have never had a battle with my health. Where are your links old timer? I’m as fit as a new-born cricket. Walk 3 kilometres a day, well ahead of all the family, predominantly fruitarian, and no serious addictions – except this dang-fangled forum!

I implore you Belly – do get your facts right – there’s a good lad!

Received in good faith Foxy. Thank you too Jonathon Byrd – such words of wisdom. Touche to that!

Yabby,

If animals were not produced for meat, they therefore cannot suffer. The same as only a small percentage of humans actually are born compared to the number of sperm and eggs available. That is, most do not have life at all. Should we convert every sperm and egg into a human so they can have a life? Think about it. The same is true for meat animals.

Factory or farmed animals both suffer by human command. I have not said different.

Cropping is continuous already. The point with cropping, take the American experience, is that at least 60 % of the total harvest goes to feed animals to feed humans. If you are speaking of range land, then you would know it is has been and is being stressed by livestock to the point of un-viability in many instances.

It is true that initially that range fires would be fierce but a return of the interior of how Australia was pre-European would need planning. It has gone for millions of years without sheep and cattle. It can do it again.

Most free range cattle are fattened on grain, as you would know. The dehorning, de nutting, transport and killing are far from humane. And you would know that.

And to pre-empt the, ‘we have a duty to feed the world’ argument before it raises its head, the feed that goes to animals could feed far more humans as grain, not meat.

All these things and more will debated with greater and greater seriousness as climate change takes its toll on the planet. It is no good going into denial about this subject; it has to be faced up to sooner or later. I suggest sooner to be the better idea.

Col Rouge,

Kangaroos would return to a pre-European level. The unavoidable abject cruelty in commercial shooting of Kangaroos pales other meat production into insignificance. Interested parties have grossly misled the public on this. Do your own investigation. The information is out there for those who want it.

Only a four post limit on this Forum. Tata for awhile.

Jonathon

Brownye

The invitation to PETA founder Ingrid to enter OLO and debate wasn’t directed at you.
I agree it looked that way as it followed on from my comments to you- Apologies.

We would like to invite PETA to tell the public – ( before they open the office in Australia ) - whether or not they really support phasing out live exports to be replaced by chilled or=

if its Anti Meat Industry full stop.

I would ask the same question of yourself and Dickie. Welcome John and perhaps you would like to comment on that also.

Foxy well said

Belly

We are all passing through and – do unto others as they…….
Yeh I teased you a bit way back. Not to be nasty- -just my dry bush humour..
You were picking on Antje`s spelling. (Kind of ironic isn’t it.)
You apologised and your actually probably one of the few who has improved himself on OLO in IMO...
I don’t give a dam about political correctness and frankly Belly you shouldn’t either. Wear it with a badge of pride that you’re from the old school and their 'ain`t too many left .
Put them on a horse or 4wheel Drive on a station and I know who would survive.

Dickie
You seem to feel we have no right to speak about Animal Welfare.
We wont fall into line and comply. I told you that when you contacted our office telling us not to post to Yabby.
I don’t want to get into beefups with you- but if we don’t talk with farmers and live exporters how on earth are we ever going to work out variable alternatives to change it.

*If animals were not produced for meat, they therefore cannot suffer.*

Ah Jonathon, but if humans were not born, they would not suffer either! No need for mommies to suffer either, giving birth.

If you agree that to avoid suffering, its better not to be born,
then surely it does not matter which species.

*Factory or farmed animals both suffer by human command.*

Humans suffer by human command too.

*Cropping is continuous already.*

Not sustainably, it isn't. Its based on cheap oil. Rotating livestock
and crops is far more sustainable, due to legume pastures, far far
less herbicides, less problems with resistant weeds, as livestock
can eat them, etc. etc. Animal manure is a sustainble fertiliser,
factory produced urea is not.

*If you are speaking of range land, then you would know it is has been and is being stressed by livestock to the point of un-viability in many instances.*

Only if it is done badly. But then bad driving, bad surgery, bad
anything can be dangerous. That is my point, factory farming and
free range farming are not the same, yet you want to throw them
into the same bucket.

*It has gone for millions of years without sheep and cattle. It can do it again.*

It sure can. As soon as the fuel load is high enough, the whole
lot burns, killing most wildlife who are roasted alive, but of
course nobody cares, as nobody owns them. Now that humans have
houses in these areas, they would burn too. You call that a
sensible plan?

*Most free range cattle are fattened on grain, as you would know.*

Some are finished on grain, as that is what some consumers prefer.
All that dark coloured beef at Coles called "Budget Beef" is
range reared and alot cheaper.

If that grain could feed the poor, then anyone is free to buy it
and feed them. There is no shortage of grain, there is a shortage
of money to buy it for the poor. But then the poor should be growing
potatoes and other crops themselves, not depending on food aid.