Hi Bugsy... well I consider those 2 posts quite ok :) and you make some reasonable points.

I don't actually consider you an Islamic apologist... just a naive secularist.(but a good geneticist:)

Indeed it must sooooo look like we/I are on some kind of "sour grapes/aah..they are getting ahead/lets pick on them and slow them down a bit"

But if through all that, we can actually get to a point where the critics of we 'Islam knockers' do some more thorough research on the 'bloody Surah' (9) (literally) at least my own goal of having people better informed would have been acheived.

Some pitfalls though.

1/
You mention speaking to 'them'... *danger signal-1* This would mean u speak to demographical minorities about something they would have an interest in playing down.

May I suggest a better approach?

a) Approach 'them'....yes indeed. But not with questions about Surah 9...ask them "Is the historian and scholar Ibn Kathir highly respected by Muslims generally"?

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=1&tid=3

b) Ask 'them'..if Abul Ala Maududi is also a respected opinion?
In his case, you might receive a divided response, depending on whether the person you ask is a Salafi,Wahabi, Shia or liberal modernistic Sunni. Each background will influence how his work is perceived.

Maududi "was" the 'ideological reference' cited by the USC Muslim Students Association Web site until about a month ago, But while his political views (re the place of Islam) are rather strong, his knowledge of the early Muslims beliefs is extremely comprehensive.
He wrote this:
http://www.englishtafsir.com/

His thoughts are linked here: (introduction to Quran chapters)

http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/quran/maududi/mau9.html

THEN... have a read of what they say about Surah 9 .. v 1-30 in particular.

2/ They might lie. (yep...that's what I said) I spoke face to face with Amr Fouda (RMIT Islamic Society president) who told me at the Friday Prayers in Bowen street that they prayed there due to "lack of space in the multi faith centre".
I watched him later say at an information day that it was a protest to "regain the MFC as a mosque."

DANGER ZONE...... @ Bugsy.

Yep.. comparing and contrasting religions is shakey territory.
If one says "Oooooh..look at THEM... they do this and that and such and such"..but WEEE don't...nope...not us.. we are mr squeaky clean.

Of course it could make us look bad.

I'll freely admit that our faith appears on the surface to be a bit "on the nose" about the role of women, including dress standards.

But those issues can be worked through at the local Church level, and I don't see any females in our fellowship who look anything other than liberated, free and in full participation.

The primary difference between the Christian faith and Islam is the nature of the human expression of it. Islam='State' and Christianity is a faith community..within any state.

CHRISTMAS... even though you may not at this stage share our convictions regarding the true meaning of Christmas, I'm sure you could benefit from some reflection on the reported events..
So..a merry and reflective Christmas to you also.

Porkycrap: << They might lie. (yep...that's what I said) >>

Hilarious. Thanks for the festive humour.

<< I'm sure you could benefit from some reflection on the reported events.. >>

I'm sure you could benefit from some reflection on the reported examples of you telling lies in this discussion, that you've typically avoided.

Have a great Saturnalia, Porky.

Bugsy while I can not claim to own your last two posts they spoke for me, every word.
Now Philo, drop that know every thing attitude, I did not just wet my feet in your religion, like so many who search for answers I swam the length of the pool.
Dived to the bottom researched and tasted it.
Even now I see some who are truly good following the fantasy of religion.
What changed me? open my eyes? ten thousand lies, threats, reasons to divide humans not unite them.
Even within the Christ religion one church against another.
The author of this thread said it in words like this.
to get good men to do evil it takes religion.
Look at the base of each one, existing to hold a group together.
To denigrate those from outside the group.
To promise we need not fear the thing some fear the most death.
Let me tell you just a few of the things I saw that made me look again
A minister overheard telling of his increasing wage and the need to get more donations.
A child with a broken arm prayed for for days by his whole church before being taken to hospital.
A man who went on to lead his church nationally sending his mother in law to throw away crutches she had never needed on his stage.
Look up tonight to the stars, or down to the sea , we have no God, clutch your own straws but do not ask me along for the ride.
Poly carp Boaz David for what ever reason you should never lie to prove a point.
Have a good Christmas, I will and a head acre tomorrow

Belly,
You do have an ache with people who fall short of living Christ in the world. They may be religious but not of the divine spirit. Stop associating poor behaviour of people you know with the purity of the God we adore. May you grasp the message of peace to men of good will.

"but the Bible does not condemn people based on any of these things. It is homosexual ACTS which are condemned."

poly-boaz, do *you* condemn homosexual acts? if so, can you tell me why? just because the bible says it's naughty, or for some other reason? i'm honestly curious.