Nicky “have worked as an Education Officer in prisons, and believe me, some of the inmates were infinitely nicer people than some of the custodial officers (and the prison management).”

Me too, although not as a custodial officer.

However, contrary to Nicky’s view

I never forgot that prison officers have to be psychologically tested, are under constant supervision and oversight, are subject to an external inspectorate whereas the prisoners never ended up in prison because of their ethical standards, despite how well they can spin the charm which many would have used in the past to beguile to gullible.

My partner is education manager for a prison and has been in that role for many years. She interviews every new prisoner and decides who will get to do what education course. She hears their bull dust every day and has become adept at spotting and ignoring it..

“I guess I'm saying we should all try to keep an open mind until more facts emerge.”

I guess that would be the best thing too.

PaulL “CJ, The mouthpiece of PC.”

Strangely, Paul, as far as a mouthpiece is concerned, I always associate CJ with a different orifice....

Paul.L,

"You weren't there..."

Neither were you.

"and therefore you have no place condemning the police for their actions."

The only thing I'm condemning is excessive force. I accept, for example, that if a hardened criminal takes up arms with intent against police that the police have a right to use like force. The fact is there have been plenty of situations in the past where police have cracked a walnut with a sledgehammer. This is my point.

"Wait for the coroners report."

The coroner is in the best position to judge after the eye witnesses. Hopefully, the full truth, that swings both ways, won't get distorted or suppressed during the process.

Dear Col, I am neither naive nor gullible - I've been "around the block" enough to evaluate inmates fairly accurately.

The psychological testing used for custodial officers in most states and territories is run by the Australian Institute of Forensic Psychology, and I believe that it is unreliable, to say the least. I underwent that testing for probation work (after having worked successfully in prisons), and failed it. I have no criminal convictions, my only police record entry on the national database is a speeding fine, have never used drugs and do not use alcohol, I have been in a stable relationship for more than 20 years, and there is nothing untoward in my family history. Go figure. One clue is that one of the "battery of tests" was developed in 1940 (hence, according to the AIFP, is not scored by a computer for obvious reasons) and it was developed for a population of senior high school students in the USA. To what extent these tests have been properly "normed" against the appropriate populations in Australia is another story.

This testing, according to the massive research I have done into it, provides for the success of people who want jobs like this so that they can bully people who cannot defend themselves. And I did say that SOME of the inmates are nicer people than SOME of the officers.

Its principal validation criteria are attrition and sick leave. Basically, I think it is a scam. Police officers in many states and territories undergo the same or similar testing, which is possibly why some are good officers, and some are thugs and bullies as happens in all occupations.

I think, with regard to this incident, we can only wait for the Coronial Enquiry which hopefully will establish the precise events.

Nicky

CJ,

You say >> “So Paul - I note that you don't acknowledge the Victoria Police's woeful record of "fatally shooting members of the public (both innocent and guilty) at a rate exceeding that of all other Australian police forces combined"”

You would know that the relevance of this to the case under investigation is almost non existent. Victoria Police may well have some issues but to suggest that the Victoria Police shooting record tells us ANYTHING about what happened that day is patently false and you know it.

I see you are critical of my expertise in this area? I wonder what yours is?

The warhammer thing is funny, but we all not what you like to look at in your spare time, don’t we. Been to any “ART” exhibitions lately?

Rob,

You say >> “The only thing I'm condemning is excessive force.”

No Rob, you condemned the Police who shot this kid for excessive force. Since you were not there you have no place doing this

Paul.L,

If it helps you understand where I'm coming from, I'm actually more of a moderate person but someone who has strong views when innocent or only partly guilty people get nailed for something that wasn't down to them. I'm into justice, basically.

I'm guessing - and I stress only guessing - that as the kid was only 15 he's had some delusions of grandeur or watched too many violent movies or whatever and gone over the top. What's probably likely is that the cops involved had never seen a situaton where someone ignored a warning shot. And what started out as an act of minimal force by the police quickly escalated into one of maximal force. At the very least, everyone should learn from this.

To get back to Foxy's original posting, maybe the police should be trained in a wider array of options for dealing with such people which are proportional to the situation. If the kid really die as a result of "suicide by cop", knowing that cops had a non-lethal option may have acted as a buffer against him even trying. That way, if he really wanted to do it, he wouldn't involve anyone else. In that respect, it's a bit like terrorism: the best approach is to not cave in to their demands.

Nicky “The psychological testing used for custodial officers in most states and territories is run by the Australian Institute of Forensic Psychology, and I believe that it is unreliable, to say the least.”

So why do state governments use it?… conspiracy?

“I underwent that testing for probation work (after having worked successfully in prisons), “. . . .

And here is the reason for discrediting the test, in Nicky’s own words….

“and failed it.”

Maybe if you had passed, you would be less critical of its acumen.

“Its principal validation criteria are attrition and sick leave. Basically, I think it is a scam. Police officers in many states and territories undergo the same or similar testing, which is possibly why some are good officers, and some are thugs and bullies as happens in all occupations.”

She doth complain too much.

“I think, with regard to this incident, we can only wait for the Coronial Enquiry which hopefully will establish the precise events.”

I agree and I think we should resist damning the police and others for supposed failings in a system until we know what any “failings” might or maybe did not occur.

As for mental health, it is recognized that many prisoners are intellectually and mentally impaired, even before they start to self-medicate on drugs. A big lump of custodial prisoners might be better housed in psychiatric units rather than in corrections warehouses but that is an issue to take to state government, not the folk charged with minding them by default.