We recently had a case in Victoria of a fifeteen year old boy being shot to death by police. The boy was carrying knives.

I don't understand how three armed police officers couldn't dis-arm the kid, or shoot him in the leg. Why did they have to kill him?

It appears that police training is grossly inadequate to deal with such situations. At the police firing-range officers are trained to shoot targets showing the upper body. It doesn't seem to occur to them to be trained to shoot suspects in the arms or the legs.

Does the police force attract the right-sort of people for the job?

Or is it that people who think on their feet, especially in difficult circumstances are not acceptable to the current system?

Often in these type of shootings where a civilian is killed the entire blame is placed on the victim, and not on the perpetrators doing the killing.

The excuse always appears to be - that their life was at risk, and they had no other choice, like running from the attacker, shooting him in the leg, or disarming him by using other means at hand,
to subdue the victim.

It is time that police training was reviewed by a higher authority.

Any comments?

I think it is premiture to comment on this issue, at least until a post motum has been conducted. The boy may have been drugged off his face.

The biggest problem we face is that the courts fail to apply adiquate punishments for juvenile crimes and kids litteraly get away with murder.

I also understand that he was dowsed with capsicum spray which apparently had little or no effect.

I place the blame...100% ON THOSE POLICE who refused to accept tazers as a control option.......

Had these police been equipped with them.... this boy would have been alive today.

Apparently 3 police officers shot 10 bullets into him. Apparently the kid was waving a couple of kinives around aggressively and one of the cops was cornered. Capsicum spray apparently didn't subdue the offender.

Sounds to me like suicide by cop, by a mentally disturbed adolescent.

I'm thinking that this may well have been a case where Tasers might have been useful. However, given the record of Victoria's police, I'm not at all confident that Tasers wouldn't be used by them as recklessly as firearms apparently still are.

The 10 bullets into the body is telling me that the cops have a pack mentality.

Surely if a bullet was necessary, one into the leg would have been enough.

A good point about cops thinking for themselves, Foxy. However, quite often the system seems to want to have cops on board who don't think but blindly follow the prescribed standard operating procedeures. Sometimes this is a good thing (if dealing with hardened crims) and sometimes bad.

But anyone waving a weapon in a threatening manner towards police is taking a dangerous step.

>>or shoot him in the leg. Why did they have to kill him?<<

I've thought the same thing many times over the years. The Victorian police have a deservedly nasty reputation when it comes to killing people, but they're not the only ones.

The stories are always the same. Police were called to the scene of whatever where someone was doing something wrong, they call for the person to drop their weapons then shoot them. Have they not understood by now to aim for the lower legs? Drug crazed or not, a single bullet would stop them. Let alone 10, which is probably enough to mince someone below the knees.

The 10 shots bit it news to me, but the kid's being portrayed as a white supremacist, as if that somehow justifies killing someone. If the thing hadn't lost all proportion before, it has now.

Tasers are not the answer. Trigger happy police will use them on the slightest pretext, and they can kill. You can't tell the state of someone's heart from their appearance alone.

If they had enough time to capsicum spray the kid 3 times, they had enough time to aim for the lower legs.

I understand that police will occasionally be forced to choose between their own lives and that of a criminal, but this appears to be one case where they had time to think about it and avoid killing someone, but chose not to.

Dear foxy and gang,

How police? How many bullets? A psycho 15yo with KNIVES?
R0bert is right it is too soon and not enough info to be definitive.
However, my experience is that young policemen tend to let the uniform go to their heads and assert their authority to hard.
I have been involved albeit some years ago with a family standoff and the issue pushed the stressed out person into a corner whereby he felt he had to stand and fight.
However, an older sgt. took over he moved the police back and then calmly began to evaluate the situation giving the protagonist an honourable way out. After 4hours the sgts 40 minutes resolved the siege.
My thoughts are that with numerous policemen there, the boy wasn’t going anywhere. I also wonder if there should be a designated shooter with a procedure of firing 1 shot calling for to give up then 2nd shooter makes the second shop.
In short there are training and procedural issues. The same issue comes to mind with the psychological patient at Bondi.

Foxy

From what I understand it makes no sense at all as to why multiple shots were fired. It seems that one shot was all that was needed and that the police had plenty of time to take a second or third shot if the first one or two missed or if the first one didn’t stop the kid.

I get the impression that there really is a pack mentality here. It seems most likely that as soon as one officer fired, the others just immediately and instinctively did the same, regardless of whether there was a perceived need to do so or not …which was the critically wrong thing to do and which surely amounts to grossly excessive force for which there should be murder charges laid.

This discussion is supposed to be about public servants killing the public? Isn't it?
And killing a member of the public who was a minor?
I have heard the hard comments - excuses by hard police men on the ABC news about this.
The pools of vomit are still there beside my radio.
They'll remain there to remind me that some Mother's son has been killed at age FIFTEEN in this alleged Democracy.

Why bother analysing murder. The lad was a minor. Beyond acceptance/reason.
Why seek cause and effect.
Why not just go back to the DaneLaw - give this son's mother an account of the situation then ask her to attend a forum where all those who killed her son are held at the State's pleasure before her -
Let her balance whatever excuses might be offered by police, the pleadings of the perpetrators, and the advice of her family.
Let this happen where she is legally entitled to take the same weapons used to kill her son and permit her, or her champion, or the local vet, the option to take those weapons up and likewise liquidate those who murdered her son.
This has gone too far and too long. If governance is permitted to kill children then so must those governed demand retribution.

It is much more complex than non farmer would have us believe.
I am a known supporter of the police force.
I am also known to put the boot in if its called for.
Some talking about police leave truth behind, you see them crawl to police and call them names after they walk away.
I have been victim in such cases, seen my workmates fawn over an officer on the roadside, playing with his over extended ego.
I liking the bloke but knowing what was to come stayed away, he hates me still for being the one man out of his fan club.
he drove away and every one of his fans called him murderer!
Such is the interface most have with police.
Victorian police commit murder, they have done so far too many times, courts rule always for them not justice.
While they once found NSW police crossed the border to commit great crimes Victorian police are no less more corrupt than any in Australia.
In no way unlike the blind rat pack mentality that drives most truck drivers, some, bike riders police justify murder or kicking the hell out of prisoners too often we the group can not be judged type of thing
Never for get, for an instant a good cop is worth far more than we can ever pay them, a bad cop? nothing.
The 15 year old could have been alive if he had only one leg? better than dead.
Murder! in the name of self defense? if our cops can not hit a leg from that distance they can not be trusted with a gun.

Non farmer, Belly and others.

Belly is right, in so much as it's more complex than an armchair observer can assess. Except in generalities.
Notwithstanding that my piece was supposed to highlight a number of issues.

Ludwig pointed out … group mentality and indeed this is a contributing factor.
The interesting bit is WHY given they’re supposedly trained for lethal situations? I would propose that it may be because:
• The general public’s attitude to laws and therefore law enforcement in general. If we’re the subject of their attention the response is invariably one of denial, hostility and excuses. This MUST have the effect of making them feel separate/isolated. Hence the ‘on THE job’ and or the siege mentality of “the brotherhood”. There is an absence of positive feedback something we all need/want if we are to maintain our humanity.
• Training inadequacies most of police pray they never have to face a potential lethal situation because they aren’t adequately trained or prepared. No ageism is intended but a 21 yo with 12/18 months training are generally not competent to make those types of judgements. Science shows that in general the judgement part of the brain is still developing at 25ish. The army they rely on indoctrinated discipline (lacking in the police) and still they get screw ups.
• The rules/procedures they have are inadequate they are too general and therefore their actions are ‘black letter’ legal although may not necessarily righteous.
• Because of all of the above there is a lack of ideal applicants for the job hence standards are ‘loose’ eg that hysterical PW who identified herself as such at a meeting about Fergusson. She lived 14 Ks away yet ‘stated that she didn’t know what to tell her 3yo’ Rules dictate that this was a minor breach of ‘police discipline’ hence she got away with Police union support.
There is no one failure as such but a series there of, neither is this a complete list. I am not sanctioning such action only that the 'blame' is a little harder to place than it would seem.

rehctub,
Again shows his clear head. We were not there and until we know facts we ought not say anything imo.
I do know he was shot in the legs several times but even that failed to stop him. Then he managed to corner a cop.

Perhaps had he not been off his face on drugs and running around threatening to kill people the police might not have been put in this position.
So where were the parents while their son was going on like this?
Cops do a rotten job for little thanks.

This thread is an example as to how much thanks they get.

Just imagine if this 15 year old youth had managed to carry out his threat and kill a person.
Oh THEN it would be different. Then we would read police fail to protect the public...

Belly btw you ought to be careful about what you say.
You cant say Melbourne police commit murder etc.. You could be sued and loose your house. You can say " Can Police Commit murder and get away with it?
So you can hint to get your message across but careful with broad statements.

NO I am not having a go at you either. Just dont want to see you loose your house through a litigation and I assure you it happens and they don`t mind the costs to get people!
All comes from the tax payers dollars...

Does the death penalty exist anywhere in Australia? NO
Do the courts here employ executioners? NO
Does your local magistrate order such penalty as having a limb lopped off for public nuisance?
Do some of you want that?

I can see it in my mind's eye - court scene, gavel crashes, magistrate with black cap over wig - "You are guilty of being upset enough in public to display your real feelings about police. This court will show lenience. I order that you will now be taken to the place of execution (conveniently below in our soundproof cellar) where your right leg will be struck off above the knee. That'll slow you down you young scalliwag !"
In the name of all that is holy might you people get things into perspective.
Australia spends millions on diplomacy arguing against the above scenario overseas - yet the people those diplomats represent are too damned stupid to say enough is enough about the death squads roaming our own streets.
Look at the statistics and admit that even if it is, as some profess, 'suicide by police' - for some reason it is becoming too prevalent

If you don't want the people who protect you from these nutters to have guns then petition and get them removed from service.

In a year's time you'll be begging for them back.

I'm getting sick and tired of this 'shoot to wound' rubbish. Educate yourself before you comment on something you have NO IDEA about.

pale SURELY it is not too much to ask.
Battle after battle between us long ago convinced me we need not address our remarks to one another.
Yet you continue to involve ,me in your comments.
Let me assure you I can look after myself, am aware of libel laws and if I ever need advice on the subject promise I will not look to your group for it.
Shot in the legs?
3 shots to the chest but in the legs too?
He was sprayed with capsicum, but shot in the legs?
was he?
I now leave yet another thread because I want to avoid trouble, only once in another forum have I ever left because I did not want conflict.
Not a cowards act, I am no coward, but for the good of the forum I step away from another subject rather than stay.

The 15 year old youth who was shot on Thursday night has a passing resemblance to the photos of the prepubescent cherub the grieving family supplied to the media.

The facts this was 15 year old youth with his own hate website, a job in a pub, a taste for rum and playing with knives. He had threatened people in a car with his knives and tried to steal a car. Sounds like he was berserk, whether through mental instability or because he was off his face on drugs we will have to await the coroner.

Possibly an older officer could have defused the situation and calmed him down, but as an older officer wasn't there - were the police on duty supposed to get injured or killed restraining a person engaged in sociopathic behaviour.

Don't worry about poor mum, she failed her duty of care to her 15 year old son.

I find it incredibly hard to believe
that 3 armed and trained police officers
could not manage a young kid no matter
how "off his face" he may have been.

To me that points to the fact that there's
something dreadfully wrong with their training.

He wasn't carrying a gun - so why couldn't they
have used their batons on him, slapped his
wrists, arms, whatever, disarmed him, and
arrested him?

Shooting 10 bullets into him?
The kid was only 5ft 7ins in height.

I feel so sorry for the family.

Someone must be held accountable.

The police behaviour in this case is
a disgrace. They're supposed to protect
and serve the community, not kill and
destroy.

And three against one ??

I couldnt imagine where I would ever blame the policeman.

Having been one, at one time, I understand the training and it is more than adequate.

The constable knows his job by the time he gets out onto the street.
He/she has had the best of training, by expert men and women.

He/she knows he/she has been given all authority to protect life.

One of those lives he/she's been given authority to protect... is his/her own.

If the offender wants to arm himself with knives or guns and directly threaten the policmans' life then the offender risks the ultimate sacrifice.

Police do not shoot people without just legal and just cause.

In a moment of time the policeman can have but one decision to make..."is this man going to kill or seriously injury me?"

Only the policeman on the spot knows that moment and what he/she has to do to protect his/her life.

No one else apart from God was there at that moment.

Cops nowadays are not gun happy.

Theres enough psycholical testing to weed out all of the would be gunslingers.

Saving those who wrote against assassination -
I cannot believe some of you people above are the product of a democracy.
It matters nothing what sort of person that kid was before his death.
It is obvious that the Greeks have a sense of justice that we lack.
After days of riots their failing government has finally charged their child killer - with murder.
Now, If a group of civilians had shot our young Australian - these civilians would be charged and the DPP would be using the arguments being denied this kid.
It'd be called an execution style killing cold-bloodedly perpetrated against a minor by a gang of assassins. Photographs would be produced; the judge and jury would be piping their eyes.
The victim would be posthumously declared a hero for having attempted to fight off his attackers to the last.
If these were the circumstances those condemning this youth on this forum would be shouting his praises and demanding that pistols be outlawed.
I suppose all you good Burghers have perfect self control. Never spat the dummy or thrown your yoyo at someone?
Of course you have - have also lived to regret your temporary silliness and to write what you have above.
Please put 'yourself in the other person's shoes' - make use of that precept of our Law.

Dear Gibo,

I'd forgotten that you were a police officer.

Could you please explain to me, if the
police training is so thorough - why
can't 3 armed police officers disarm
a small youngster who's not carrying a gun?

They have batons, they can shoot him in
the legs, why kill him?

And ten bullets?

Surely they could have done better?

Doesn't that indicate to you that something
was wrong with their training?

A few things don't quite make sense here Gibo. You state:

"Having been one (a police officer), at one time, I understand the training and it is more than adequate... Theres enough psycholical testing to weed out all of the would be gunslingers."

And yet, in the past you have stated:

"As for demons. I know about them, as many christians do. As for UFO's. Lets wait and see. Who knows what they build in the "skunk works" manufacturing areas. Does anyone know whats next with high tech planes? Are there flying discs? Stan Deyo in The Cosmic Conspiracy says yes. I think its possible."

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1042&page=0#18807

You make a compelling case for more psychological testing of police.

Seems to me that the police made a bad call in this instance. I suppose it's easier to judge them with the benefit of hindsight, but regrettably, this mistake has cost a life.
I suppose we'll have to wait and see what comes out of it. Seems to me that there's a need for an inquiry, though I'm sure one will happen.

Hi Foxy.

I wasnt there but I wouldnt have taken on a man with a knife/knives with a baton.

Baton are for in close use to control a non-lethal assault.
I dont think I ever used mine. All it ever did was drag my pants down with the weight. We had steel rod-inserted rubber batons in those days.

According to news reports the victim went looking to die and was pushing police to shoot him.
Its got to be reminded that such a situation is extremely dangerous for police.
A possibly psychiatric man armed with knives probably charging and screaming and threatening police...it would have been terrifying for the ordinary street policeman.

Once the moment of shooting comes... thats it it.
It happens and theres no going back.
Shooting in the legs wont stop him if he's psychiatric and mostly police would miss anyway because the offender is running at them.

Ten shots? I guess it shows the panic of the police at the greatness of the threat to their lives.
Cops hate such confrontation and many never get over it.
All of their lives the event replays and replays in the mind... for quite a few of them.
Cops dont want to shoot people.
I tell you they really, truly dont want to shoot people.

All police want to do is get home to their families at the end of the shift safe and sound having done their duty for the day.

Without cops society is finished with.
They are, in truth, all that stands between society and anarchy. Without cops, gangs rule.
Everything falls apart.

Perhaps we should be looking towards placing responsibillity back on the parents to take care of their kids.

15 is a minor. What is a minor doing roaming the streets at 9pm on a school night anyway?

As someone said, don't worry about poor old mum, had she have been a responsible parent, not only would her son be alive but the police officers that shot him wouldn't have that memory hanging over them for the remainder of their lives.

Your kids, your responsible. End of story!

Youre just picking TRTL:)

I know about demons because Im a born again christian and guess what ...we do actually know our adversary. We know about dark powers and how they rattle people.

I became a born again christian years after I left the police.

As for UFOs Ive read Stan Deyos wonderful book THE COSMIC CONSPIRACY and because I know the spirit war on earth between God and satan (it is a spirit war...no little green men from other worlds) I know that if there are any UFOs... men built them.
Isnt it so that frequently flying craft are seen near military bases?

We werent there at shooting. Only the police were so we dont know how it was. We wait and see.
I reckon the police will get completely off.

Gibo, rehctub,
At least we know there are some normal people still left.

Sorry Foxy but I am not with you on this one despite holding respect for many of your comments.
Belly
If your aware of libel then go for it. I just hate to see people loose everything.
Saying police murder is pretty full on even for someone who used used to flapping their gums without thinking.
Deary me and you wonder why we are concerned with these highly thin skinned unions drama queens.

Very well pop off now to another thread.
be sure to close the door on the way out.

Thanks for all of your comments.

They are greatly appreciated.

We will have to wait and see what the
coroner decides in the investigation
of what happened in this case.

Personally, I still feel that the training
of police officers needs to be re-examined.
Whatever the circumstances may have been,
I simply can't get my mind around the fact
that so many armed police officers couldn't
bring down or subdue a young troubled kid,
without having to kill him.

To me that says that something is very wrong
with the way these officers are being
trained.

PALE&IF: << At least we know there are some normal people still left >>

If you think Gibo's in any way "normal", what does that say about you?

I think it is too early to comment about this matter, hence I did not however, to catch the last point Foxy made

their may be something wrong with the way police officers aqre being trained but

it is equally true to say there must be something wrong with the way this adolescent has been brought up.

before anyone criticises the cops, I would suggest we all remember, they are there to curtail the excesses of individuals who feel, unjustly, entitled to more than the quiet enjoyment of our public places.

and I find knife wielding, screaming adolescents something which is incompatible with my sense of personal safety.

Christians ARE a bit different CJMorgan.

They have usually had a sudden, sometimes dramatic, spiritual experience (becoming Born Again. Everyone has to become Born Again to enter Heaven ...John 3:3) that revealed to them that God truly DOES exist; and that Jesus is the Saviour.

Many, like myself, have gone on to experience an insight into the spirit war thats been raging in the airways above and around us(Ephesians chapter 6:12-18 re: the conflict).

Many see visions, many speak prophecies in the Holy Spirit, some raise the dead, others are used by God to heal, many many speak in tongues.
Yes...we are a different people.
Far happier than those trapped in the world.
Why not join us CJ?
Confess the sin and invite Jesus in. Get saved.

Dear Col,

I agree with you that screaming, knife-wielding
adolescents are disquieting, to say the least.

However, my point was that fully trained and
armed police officers should have been able to
deal with the situation in a more appropriate
manner. That's their job.
Instead of firing 10 bullets into the kid
and killing him.

If three armed (and fully trained) police officers
could not subdue one kid - there's something
dreadfully wrong with the system that provides
their training.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/compose-message-general.asp?discussion=2381
I have issues about murder in Australia.
I wanted to raise the issue further in this forum.
This is a test.
If this is censored then murder is officially condoned -
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE JOKING
There have been threats already published indicating unlawfulness and police shooting in reckless ways.
I bring the matter of confiscation of life into the public domain and you now refuse to discuss matters settled at Nurnberg about 60 years ago?
I tried to raise matters that would make the situation plain.
You refuse the facilitation of that input.
You accept utter discordant drivel but will not countenance reason. As someone mentioned the other day - “ they don’t decide against you for any reason - they decide against you because they CAN.”
Clearly you CAN anonymously stuff me about in a little corner of my life and resultantly cause me to consider my options.
Clearly you DO believe yourself too gutless even to begin intellectualising about what child murder means.
Clearly you are perfectly right. You disgust me.

I am so annoyed my last for good reason.
I spent quite some time putting together a proposal for my first thread - about a matter touching on this subject - and from the point of view of law.
I was censored by the 'moderator' whatever insect that is - for speaking fact.

Col Rouge ,
Obviously the very nervous type !

This was a sad and impossible to understand action ,No excuses , [apart from the abysmal Police Management and Government sanctioned training] .

We have seen it often - hour upon hour of firearms training, all focussing it seems on the heart at point blank range.

Why ??

Any Policemen or women out there want to answer a very pressing question ??

Gibo ,
On reading your posts [from your policeman's point of view] all I can say is that surely there should be more training of assessing combatants with obvious severe psycological problems and decide on a course of action that guarantees that the person's life [or the police's] are not lost.

Surely science can produce something that can be fired using a paint - ball rifle or similar at a person's face, that will glue their eyes up, or is that toxic that the fumes in the material will render them almost immediately disorientiatd or unconscious .

Or Tazers used responsibly ?

As others have said we don't know the full story yet. However there was a similar case on a Sydney beach a few years ago - a lone man waving knives on a beach who was then shot dead by police.

Back then, it seemed fairly straight forward to me. If the police could evacuate themselves and everybody else from the scene such that the man is a danger to no-one but himself, then that is what they must do. In the Sydney incident we had a man on a beach, drunk from memory, waving knives. My guess is if the police had not turned up at all, no one would have got hurt. If the police had turned up and evacuated the area, no one would of got hurt and the man would has been prosecuted by a judge, and a jury of his peers.

As it was, the police stood their ground on the beach, aggravated the situation by making demands on a drunk angry man, then killed him when he reacted in an entirely predicable way. Because it was predicable, and because the man was no danger to anyone but himself, sounds like murder to me.

We will see how this case pans out.

I was out running the other day when I came across a young fellow throwing knives at a tree. He was very accurate. I wonder if this 15 year old who was shot had of thrown one of these knives at the chest of one of the policemen what we would be saying. Just a thought.

Looking at the way the left loonies jumped to the defense of a terrorist (Hicks) you can see that they love to condemn any form of legitimate authority.

In saying that one can't help to be saddened by the death of such a young life. I am sure the police responsible feel it more than any of us. Or do we assume the worst of them as many here have done.

You need to remember that the average police member (SOG excepted) spends *barely* enough time training with his or her revolver to be less of a threat to themselves than someone else while using it. This is for practical training time reasons - alot of members will never even draw their service revolver, much less use it, and there is alot more to policing than being able to shoot. The pistols are more for intimidation than for actual use.

As a result, an average 10 year old farm child who grew up shooting rabbits is quite likely to be a more accurate marksman than most constables.

From memory 7 shots were fired, for two hits in the legs and one (lethal) in the chest. Think about that for a moment. Thats less than half even hitting the target. Im going to guess the members were aiming at the legs and the chest shot was a recoil shot fired after one of the leg shots. For all the good that did the boy.

"Just shoot him in the leg" has a great ideal behind it, but it is one ideal that average police members simply *will never* be able to live up to. Shooting people in the leg is something for the SOGs, if at all.

The police did the right thing. The boy appears to have gone for suicide by police shooting; the real victim here is the member who's gun will be matched as having fired that lethal round. For that person, the hell that will come from what should have been another night at the office is probably only just beginning.

My point is starting this thread was to
raise the issue of police training.
To ensure that this sort of thing does
not happen again.

It's a difficult situation. We all realize
that, I think.

However, it simply is not good enough to
say that the police were right, and they
did the right thing.

A young life was lost and we need to ask -
could the situation have been handled in
any other way?

All I am asking is that the entire matter be
examined - with no blame being laid - simply
have the matter be looked at objectively - no finger
pointing - just how else could the situation
have been handled?

I feel that all parties would appreciate another
evaluation. Rather just closing the case with,
"Yeah, the police did the right thing!"

A lost life deserves some further answers.
As do the officers who now have to live
with their actions. Closing the case will not
achieve anything.

Foxy, you are right. These police officers acted as they knew best at the time assessing the situation using their training and/or experience. They now have an enormous burden. Heads should roll in the upper echelons where training is determined.

I read a very interesting letter to the editor in one of Australia's newspapers.

In Greece the police kill a 15 yr old-with an angy mob behind him!- and there are riots. In Australia 3 police officer kill a lone boy and there is deafening silence. Strange isn't it. Shameful actually.

From work experience I've seen people of all ages 'off their faces' with drugs, alcohol or mental illness, and any combination of these, and there are methods to deal with people like this. Pulling a gun is not one of them. From their 'reality' they are fighting for their life, waving guns around excerbates that.

Absolutely the training is inadequate and needs serious review. Not only because a boy was killed, but also because of the consequences to the officers themselves.

For the Christians, you'll appreciate this little bit of paranoia, have you ever looked at the significance of the Victorian police badge?

Dear Anansi,

Thank You so much for your comments
and for understanding the point
that I've been trying to make for
this entire thread.

All I am asking for everyone's sake -
please - don't let this case
simply be brushed aside.

The police training desperately needs
reviewing.

Hi kartiya jim.
I think we have probably got some of the best training techniques available to police forces anywhere in the world, here in Australia. Constantly are they updated.

Every situation is different of course.
Most police seem to have gotten killed at domestic disputes where there was lots of screaming and waving of arms.

The Constable knows his lawful entitlement when it comes to pulling his pistol.
He doesnt in anyway do it lightly and he will indeed be under fear of serious harm if he does pull it.
I think I only ever had my gun out once, over a number of years, in the prescence of an offender.
Its not common.

As time passes Im sure science will provide other alternatives to the pistol. I heard their working on Star trek type ray weapons that can nullify but not kill. Maybe a few years away yet?

Anasi,

>> “In Greece the police kill a 15 yr old-with an angy mob behind him!- and there are riots. In Australia 3 police officer kill a lone boy and there is deafening silence. Strange isn't it. Shameful actually.”

What’s shameful is that the Greeks would riot for three days. Its typical REACTIONARY behaviour.

It’s really tiresome hearing from people who know nothing about guns, policing or the danger the police were in, on the night.

You say >> “ I've seen people of all ages 'off their faces' ... and there are methods to deal with people like this.”

What UTTER rubbish. When a CRAZED person advances on police with knives drawn, police have to make a decision. When two doses of capsicum spray don’t work they KNOW the offender is seriously worked up. They MUST assume that the offender intends to injure someone and that he isn't going to be talked down.

In confronting this person one of the police found themselves in a position where he couldn’t retreat. The options are, use capsicum spray and if that fails contain the situation. However when a policeman feels his or his colleagues lives are in imminent danger, he has a responsibility to act. They are trained to shoot at the torso deliberately, because the other options are not particularly reliable or safe. Police shoot to put the defender down. Once the decision to fire is made it is clear that someone is in a life threatening position and that all those who are in a position to stop the offender should act. Which is what happened. 1 bullet or 10, the police shoot until the offender is no longer in a position to threaten.

Do we really expect police to be shot or stabbed before they take action? Under those circumstances I wonder how many of the critics of the police’s actions on the night would volunteer to be the sacrificial lamb? I wonder how many of them would offer their necks up whilst armchair critics pontificated on where the line for deadly force should be drawn

Yes I came back, it has to be said
42 people have been shot dead by police in Victoria from 1987 till now
Twice the number killed by police in NSW the state with the biggest population.
Why?
Training yes, attitude yes group mentality? maybe, but that kid should never have died.
Bean bag bullets tasers some thing not a death sentence.
Balance folks please what if it was your son gone wayward?
death first offense?
42 police death sentence's , yet if a hanging of a murderer was about to happen in Victoria we mostly would be out raged.

Paul.L: "In confronting this person one of the police found themselves in a position where he couldn’t retreat."

Can you provide a link showing this was the case?

Welcome back Paul.L. You add a bit more reason to the debate.

I, also, cannot understand why three policemen could not subdue a fifteen year old boy without shooting him (ten shots have been mentioned, surely overkill, pardon the atrocious pun). Presumeably they had batons. A couple of well aimed blows would seem to me to be sufficient to control the situation. I generally support the police. Their job is not easy particularly with the plethora of lawyers specialising in human rights etc. etc. but this incident is too much. I await the outcome of the enquirey with interest. Boethius.

Paul L,
If police can get close enough to use capsicum spray one might think they are close enough to take a reasonable shot at a leg or foot with some type of weapon .

No one wants Police to be injured in their important work of protecting the public.

That is not what the discussion is about .

“From work experience I've seen people of all ages 'off their faces' with drugs, alcohol or mental illness, and any combination of these,”

Yep… shot gun pellets to the guts usually slows 'em up a treat.

Someone who is “off their face ‘ with drugs, alcohol or mental illness, who is presenting a danger to members of the public or the police, who are there to protect the public, are neither excused or exempt the consequences of their aberrant behavior.

But of course, we expect the excusers (or should that be 'excuses') of the left to demand that no one will ever be held accountable for anything.

Good to see you posting again PaulL

Please keep the discussion on a higher level,
without personal labeling.

This is not about the "left" or the "right,"
of anything. This is not about pointing fingers
or accusations, or laying blame.

This thread is about asking for a review of
police training methods - so that a situation
like this one could be handled perhaps
differently in the future.

Anyway, I've said all I wanted to say.

Thank You for your comments.

And, before I leave, I would like to wish you all
a Safe, Happy and Gastronomically Satisfying
Festive Season.

See you again in 2009

There are people who use drugs, who drink plenty alcohol, people with mental problems, people out of control. All these people are dangerous not only for police men but for every one of us.
Do we kill a drunk driver who put at risk the lives of innocent people? NO. we try to help him to stop the alcohol, we try to convince him to take a taxi
Do we kill a person who holds a knife and wants money for his/her drugs ? No we give him/her the money and try to find ways to support the drug users
Do we kill a person with mental problems who hold a knife and threaten people or our self? No we try to calm him/her we try to disarm him/her, we try to save people's lives with the minimum cost on the person with the mental problems.
We do not kill the people with mental problems WE UNDERSTAND AND SUPPORT THEM.
How we calm a person with mental problems who hold a knife and threaten to kill us?
How can we disarm a person with mental problems who hold a knife and threaten to kill us? I supposed it is many times easier to disarm a person with mental problems, because he/she can NOT control him self well than any other person.
I will not tell you how to disarm a person, how to calm a mental person. These activities are basic and every police man/woman must know how to do them.
Three police men, instead to calm or disarm a young person send into his body 10? bullets!
Foxy I agree with you.. You know what happened to Greece when a police man killed a young person. I have written very often about it in Greek newspapers-forums 2-3 posts per day.
I do mot think a life cost very much in Australia.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaid

ColR are you becoming more sloppy with your arguments or is that just my imagination?

How does 'excusers of the left' bring anything to this debate? What on Earth does left or right politics have to do with this?

If you think for one moment that those three officers, no matter what the outcome of any enquiry, will come out of this unscathed emotionally and/or psychologically you have never ever had direct contact with people like police officers, ambulance paramedics or hospital workers who are confronted daily with other humans in situations that you wouldn't wish upon your worst enemy.

The concern is that those at the coalface will again bear the brunt. Either as scapegoats or that this 'goes with the territory' and as an officer you'd better accept that.

It is petrifying to be confronted and threathened by a person who is beyond reach. Not to 'freeze up' or 'lash out' when attacked requires training. It is not natural for most people to remain alert and cool headed in threathening situations. Most of us just react, not act.

Paul, have you have ever been attacked by a person you were called upon to tend to who was so paranoid and psychotic he could only act like a rat in a corner in mortal fear? It is pretty scary stuff. You'd be amazed what even a bit of training-actual physical mock up events-can achieve.

Remember, there were THREE officers. It would be interesting to know how much experience any of them had, let alone what training.

Col has spoken in the past about his links via work I think to police officers.
Some thing in security is it Col?
Your posts here highlight just maybe some should not ever be given a gun, a gut full of ? well I need not go on.
As some one who while often critical ,is a supporter of police, I assure you cops who think as you write are both a minority and in the wrong job.
Not a fearful bloke I have thrown myself on a man trying to kill a cop, both the cop and I got cut but we held the drunken idiot till he gave up.
Unlike the Col I see in print here, I and many would have done just that rather than kill this kid, in fact every weekend, some place in Australia cops do just that.
42 deaths twice NSW total in the same time why?
Let us hope not too many Victorian police think like Col rights.
Col just maybe you make me proud to be left of you, but then again almost every one is.

Sometimes psychiatric people are very hard to stop...almost impossible.
I remember many years ago at Central police station, Sydney when they brought in a young drunk, who had bashed a few people outside in the street.
As they were searching the man he flipped out and attacked the charge room Constable. The alarms went on and all over the building police came running.
One Constable got kicked in the groin, others got king hit in the head.
Many Constables had him pinned into a corner of the room but they couldnt stop his rage.
One police baton ended up bent over on itself... the policeman had hit him so hard. He wouldnt stop. That baton had a steel rod inside it. I had never seen such rage and such supernatural power. There must have been 10-12 police hanging off him until they finally subdued him and led him away to the cells. We hear stories of men doing heroic acts of bravery in time of war. Its like that. When the rage is up... little can stop a man.
Im not surprised police shot the offender 10 times or so.
It may have taken 10 shots to stop him.

ASymeonakis” Do we kill a person who holds a knife and wants money for his/her drugs ? No we give him/her the money and try to find ways to support the drug users”

Not sure what state you live in but a drug user doing that in Victoria would, rightly end up in one of the many “recovery centres”, run by the Dept of Corrections for a good long while… and be rigorously helped off their self-medicating regime through direct containment – in their prison cell and if they played up… in a ‘management’ cell, for closer observation.

And that is more support than any ‘off-your-face’ drunk or drug user deserves.

Belly your speculation was wrong, I have done no work for the police, although I have done work for the Dept of Justice a couple of years back but these days have moved on to the brighter pastures of the private sector… nothing to do with security.

As for the rest… did not realize you were a professional trumpet player…. You are certainly good at blowing your own…

I've witnesses a similar situation decribed by Gibo, although this was from the point of view of a civilian.
I used to live in one of Sydney's roughest suburbs, and two neighbours were having a punch up in the street. Just by chance a police car turned into the street and two officers attempted to break up the fight. All of a sudden about 15 neighbours all started abusing the Police and were attacking them. I called 000 and about 4 more police cars turned up, and it was for a while a full scale riot. I even took a few photographs, I was leaving the area anyway and needed a reminder of why I was leaving.
Police have a very difficult job to do, and need to remain calm in very difficult circumstances. I don't think I could do it.
As I was moving I volunteered as a witness. The main ringleaders pleaded guitly, but one woman who assulted a police officer pleaded not guilty and I testified at her trial. She basically got a slap on the wrist, but due to my statement she withdrew her complaints against the Police.

Steel Mann from your comments,

reminds me of MacQuaries Fields (2005) and the Redfern riots, when the aboriginal adolescent was cycling away from police and impaled himself on railings...

The rights of criminals, miscreants and those with an over developed sense of self-entitlement to pursue civil disorder and public offence seem to be vocally supported, whilst those same lawless elements trample the rights of the law abiding (to peaceful and quiet enjoyment of our cities) under foot.

"1 bullet or 10, the police shoot until the offender is no longer in a position to threaten."

So, Paul.L, after the first bullet to the chest, do you reckon the youngster was still in a position to threaten? As usual, your post was a masterful piece of maximal hyperbole.

A 3-4% of our population have mental problems and at least 1 time in their life they are very dangerous! Do you mean we have to kill them?
What about the mental hospitals? How many persons with mental problems have killed every day in the Hospitals? No one!
Why in the mental Hospitals do not kill the persons with huge mental problems but the police killed a 15 years old person with mental problems?
Is not Police's duty to protect our lives, even from our selves? Is not Police's duty to protect even the lives from persons with mental problems? YES ! Why the police men did not do everything to protect their lives and young's life?
Australia, as most civilized countries, is against the death penalty, even for the worst criminals. BUT IF WE ARE AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY EVEN FOR THE WORST KILLERS THEN WHAT WE COULD THINK FOR THE KILLING OF A YOUNG PERSON WHO A MOMENT GET OUT OF HIS CONTROL AND THREATENED TO KILL OTHER PEOPLE?
THE YOUNG PERSON NEEDED HELP, UNDERSTANDING, SUPPORT, A SMILE, A GOOD WORD ! What did the police men do? they kill him! Is it a professional behave? NO!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Rstuart,

Here is the link. http://www.theage.com.au/national/two-knives-three-alarmed-police-officers-and-a-scared-little-boy-lies-dead-in-seconds-20081212-6xnm.html?page=-1

An officer was cornered in a stair well and could not retreat.

The officers had already tried two doses of capsicum spracy, and the senior policeman on site broke the rules by firing a warning shot into the ground to get the boy to stop. He still did not comply.

Apparently the kid had made phone calls to the police telling them that he was going to kill people. He also said to a policeman “kill me because I’m going to kill you”.

“Just minutes after Tyler was shot dead on Thursday, police received a call from a relative saying he was missing and looking for a confrontation with police.” http://www.theage.com.au/national/two-knives-three-alarmed-police-officers-and-a-scared-little-boy-lies-dead-in-seconds-20081212-6xnm.html?page=-1

This was an almost clear cut case of suicide by cop.

Boethius,

I wonder whether you would be prepared to get within striking distance of someone insane wielding two knives and threatening to kill you? Furthermore, would you stand by and watch as your wife, son or brother found themselves backed into a corner?

Clearly there are large numbers of people on this discussion who don’t have any idea about the facts on the night. They also tend to be the people who don’t have a clue about guns and policing, and have probably never been involved in a violent confrontation in their lives.

Let me state this clearly for all those who don’t understand.

Once a person’s life is in imminent danger, the police have a responsibility to ensure they protect that person, whether they are a member of the public or a policeman. When the knife wilding maniac cornered the constable the options for dealing with him became limited to “him or us”. A bullet wound to the leg would not stop such a person in a charge over 5m. And that’s assuming that under the circumstances they could guarantee a hit, which is impossible

TBC

Police investigations showed that officers shooting at targets shooting back, missed at least half the time. If they were forced to shoot at the legs of a person charging them with a deadly weapon the miss rate would be much higher, and the proportion of dead and injured police would rise dramatically. http://pqx.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/9/3/303

A US study found that “research consistently indicates that police officers who use deadly force miss their intended targets far more often than they hit them” http://pqx.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/9/3/303

The problem isn’t that they can’t shoot stationary targets accurately. It’s just VERY difficult to be accurate when you are being shot at, or rushed at by offenders wielding knives, and your life depends upon it.

“Any experienced police officer knows the potentially devastating effects of even justified shootings by police—loss of life and bereavement, risks to an officer’s career, the government’s liability to civil suits, strained police-community relations, rioting and all the economic and social crises that attend major civil disturbances.” http://pqx.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/9/3/303

Shooting at legs etc is NOT a valid tactic for police officers to undertake. If they are not in imminent danger they should retreat, if they are in imminwent danger they MUST be allowed to defend themselves, their colleagues and the public to the extent required

RobP,

Do you have any idea how long it took the police to fire those ten shots? Do you have any idea how far away from police the boy was? Ten shots from 3 policeman can easily take less than 2 seconds, especially considering that 10 shots is only three shots for two officers and four for the other, and that they would have been concurrent, not consecutive. Unless the bullets hit the boys T-Zone it’s decidedly possible that the boy was still moving forward after the first second. The idea that the police should try one shot and then wait and see if it worked is specious. They shot until they felt he no longer posed an imminent threat

Paul.L,

Thanks for the link. It looks to be pretty much as you described.

Col your rudeness anger, and extremism in some posts says more about you than me.
My generation does get involved in so much, nothing strange about me helping that cop, would you have stood by?
my radio life sees me volunteering for much community work, for my benefit, its more pleasant to give than receive.
I do read my posts again and am my own worst critic, do you ever bother?
I do not think you do, or that you would understand why I find it so hard to understand this kids death.
Are you sure you find nothing wrong with it?
Are you just a bit sad because it took place?
Any concern why 42 police deaths in Victoria is twice the number of NSW for that same time?
Do you understand Col those numbers, if you take NSW out probably mean Victoria's police deaths are greater than the rest of Australia put together?
Col do not let the verbal tennis we play here convince you you know me, or anyone, you see no body language here.
Radio, print, you can not judge by them, yes you can tell what type I am but if it meant my death I would try to stop ANYONE being unfairly hurt, would you not do the same?
Col a chance exists, I do not know the figures, that even with the NSW numbers in Victoria in the years from 1987 may have more police deaths than the rest of Australia, it must be very close.till think its ok?

The best idea I've heard in relation to solving this problem was in the Canberra Times Letters pages from memory.

The idea was to develop a device that fires a thin, knife-resistant but pliant mesh that effectively wraps up the aggressor. It could be deployed early in any standoff situation thus lessening the chance of a cop being manoeuvred into a corner etc. It would obviously do no permanent damage to the aggressor either.

It could be standard issue on all police patrol cars.

The use of such a tool would be a good outcome for people who let their anger get out of control in erratic but short bursts (esp when drunk) and for domestic violence cases. It would also be good for cops as it would give them a safe option that doesn't lead to future psychological problems for them.

Paul.L,

10 shots, 3 shooters. That equals 3 volleys from 3 concurrently-fired pistols, plus one more shot. Despite the apparent seriousness of the situation, that's still way too much in my view.

If 10 shots had been fired as quickly as you say at the legs, some would have missed, but some would also have scored a hit. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have done much moving after that.

Belly when you make such precious comments as

“do read my posts again and am my own worst critic, do you ever bother?
I do not think you do, or that you would understand why I find it so hard to understand this kids death.”

And

“Col do not let the verbal tennis we play here convince you you know me, or anyone, you see no body language here.”

No wonder you think “your rudeness anger, and extremism in some posts says more about you than me.”

That you consider me “rude” is not a concern of mine, I do not post as part of a popularity contest but to express my own views and values, regardless of yours.

That you delude yourself to my countenance (which is ‘cheerful’ rather than angry) and then have the arrogance to complain about them here does, infact, reflect on you.

I have already addressed what your interpretation/definition of ‘extremism ‘ in another post on another thread,

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2395&page=0#52927

I suggest you read it.

Anyway, whatever my posts say about me is for each individual to read and decide for themselves and not for you to pretend to act has house-matron over.

I suggest you get over yourself and in the mean time

Have a nice Xmas.

RobP

you say >> "10 shots, 3 shooters... that's still way too much in my view."

In your view? Its all very well to be the armchair general, pointing out what could have been done, in the comfort of your home with the lack of light, tension, violence, uncertainty, danger and pain removed from the equation. Tell me, what qualifications do you have that allow you to KNOW that they didn't need 3 shots?

you say >> "If 10 shots had been fired ... at the legs ... I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have done much moving after that."

1) How do you know that a bullet strike to the leg would stop the kid before he put one of his kitchen knives through the carotid artery of a policeman?

2) How do you know they would have hit his leg before he got within stabbing range of the cornered policeman.

This may or may not apply to you RobP. But the whole notion of personal responsibility seems to have been thrown out the window by MANY people who call themselves "progressive"

This kid calculatedly committed suicide by cop, and there are people on this thread who want to blame the police for this. For these people it is always someonelse's responsibility, not the offender.

You say, deploy a spiderman mesh to wrap up the victims. Seriously? Its very easy for you to stand on the sidelines and suggest police go into situations in which their lives are at stake wielding weapons which may, or may not, work.

This kid asked for and got what he wanted. Blaming the police is simply an unpleasant blame-shifting exercise by people who can't cope with the fact that actions have consequences and that people are responsible for their actions.

I notice you didn't answer my questions as to how far away from the cornered policeman was from the boy. Or how long the 10 shots took. Do you know how long they tried to contain the boy before it got to the point where a policeman was in imminent and mortal danger?

Yeah right Paul.L.

You tell me how YOU are so sure, you know all. Speaking of armchair generals, you're not doing too bad an impression of one yourself. When was the last time you were in such a situation? You sound like a zealous born-again.

"You say, deploy a spiderman mesh to wrap up the victims. Seriously? Its very easy for you to stand on the sidelines and suggest police go into situations in which their lives are at stake wielding weapons which may, or may not, work."

You would have to test it first of course. Once it was operational, you'd then deploy the working model, you dill. Not fumble around with a half-working one. And you'd do it with the full backing of the police hierarchy and tactical response squads. It's not that hard to do if the police take the whole initiative seriously.

What did I say earlier? Yeah, "As usual, your post was a masterful piece of maximal hyperbole." You're just proving that in spades.

'Many see visions, many speak prophecies in the Holy Spirit, some raise the dead, others are used by God to heal, many many speak in tongues.
Yes...we are a different people.
Far happier than those trapped in the world.
Why not join us CJ?'

Gibo that sounds really inviting. Hey have you heard that every barcode is divided into two parts by three markers and those three markers are always represented by the number six. Six-six-six.

Foxy,

'I agree with you that screaming, knife-wielding
adolescents are disquieting, to say the least.'
:-) That's a quotable quote.

'All I am asking is that the entire matter be
examined - with no blame being laid - simply
have the matter be looked at objectively - no finger
pointing - just how else could the situation
have been handled?'

Haha. That's very funny. What world do you live in?

kartiya jim,

'Or Tazers used responsibly ?'
Even funnier. Tazers will negate the need for police to ever use anything else. Bzzz, oh, what? you just wanted directions? Bzzz. It's easier talking to you when you're down there.

Col Rouge,

'That you consider me “rude” is not a concern of mine, I do not post as part of a popularity contest but to express my own views and values, regardless of yours.'

Colin, I like your style.

Paul.L,

"This kid calculatedly committed suicide by cop."

How would you know? Are you living inside his head? You can only really know that if you were him.

"and there are people on this thread who want to blame the police for this."

The police pulled the triggers - of course they're responsible for their actions. Are we supposed to suspend scrutiny because they have badges on their arms? We've all had experiences where the police have thrown their weight around more than the situation warrants. It's naive to think that police never make mistakes or act disproportionately.

"This kid asked for and got what he wanted."

Again, how do you really know?

"Blaming the police is simply an unpleasant blame-shifting exercise by people who can't cope with the fact that actions have consequences and that people are responsible for their actions."

Sounds like you've got your mind already made up on this one. A zealot on search of a crusade, perhaps?

"I notice you didn't answer my questions as to how far away from the cornered policeman was from the boy. Or how long the 10 shots took. Do you know how long they tried to contain the boy before it got to the point where a policeman was in imminent and mortal danger?"

No idea - I wasn't there obviously. But, how do you know what the police did? Maybe they swaggered in there thinking that their uniforms would do the trick and didn't prepare themselves mentally for a worst-case scenario. By the time they realised the kid was more than they bargained for, he'd got within lunging distance and they were too panicked to think through a less lethal response.

This is all supposition of course. But the point is, it's no less possible than what you've said. Hopefully, the investigation will be a thorough and discerning one that properly unravels fact from fiction and fills in all the gaps.

RobP,

You say >> “When was the last time you were in such a situation? You sound like a zealous born-again.”

1) I’m not remotely religious
2) Three years back I was at the hospital with a mate who’d been injured in a fight. A guy who had been taking speed went nuts, punched nurses and went on a rampage. Police were called and four of them struggled to contain him and he wasn’t armed with anything other than his fists, feet and teeth.

You say >> “Speaking of armchair generals, you're not doing too bad an impression of one yourself”

I’m suggesting that the people on the spot, the police, are the people who had to make the decision, and I’m backing their decision (as long as the investigation bears out the account given to the media).

You’re the one standing back making pronouncements on what they should have done and how. Not me.

You say >> “You would have to test it first of course. Once it was operational, you'd then deploy the working model, you dill”

Dill? They have been working on non-lethal technology for decades. There’s a reason that we haven’t already seen such weapons and that is they aren’t reliable. In any case, you can’t criticise the police for not using a weapon they haven’t got.

You say >> “. It's not that hard to do if the police take the whole initiative seriously.”

Really? You know this how? Do you have a prototype or have you just seen it in the movies?

I said >> “"This kid calculatedly committed suicide by cop."

you said >> “How would you know? Are you living inside his head? You can only really know that if you were him.”

Besides the phone call from a relative saying that the kid was beserk and looking for a confrontation with the police, he was also reported to have said “kill me because I’m going to kill you”. Furthermore, he shrugged off TWO capsicum spray doses and ignored a warning shot into the ground at his feet.

TBC

CONT,

Furthermore “Detectives investigating Tyler's death are examining an emergency call from a young male saying, "Get the cops. I am killing people tonight. The same caller rang back pretending to be a panicked witness, screaming there was a man with a shotgun who needed to be killed. Both calls are believed to have been made from the dead teenager's mobile phone.” http://www.theage.com.au/national/two-knives-three-alarmed-police-officers-and-a-scared-little-boy-lies-dead-in-seconds-20081212-6xnm.html?page=-1

You say >> “The police pulled the triggers - of course they're responsible for their actions

There is a statute in most criminal codes and also exists in the common law called SELF DEFENCE, maybe you’ve heard of it. Simply put it allows people to act with potentially deadly force if it is required to protect life.

you say >> “Are we supposed to suspend scrutiny because they have badges on their arms?

Absolutely not. My complaint is with
a) those people who have already decided that the police did something wrong and
b) those who sit back and pontificate on what the police should have done, when they weren’t there and they weren’t in danger.

You say >> “But, how do you know what the police did? Maybe they swaggered in there thinking that their uniforms would do the trick and didn't prepare themselves mentally for a worst-case scenario ...”

What? You have absolutely no evidence for that. In fact ALL of the evidence suggests the police did the opposite. Two capsicum doses plus a warning shot into the ground are pointers to that fact. Indeed the policeman who fired the warning shot was breaking the rules to try and prevent this tragedy at significant risk to his and his colleague’s safety and his career

You say >> “What did I say earlier? Yeah, "As usual, your post was a masterful piece of maximal hyperbole." You're just proving that in spades.”

No, what I’ve done is introduce some FACTS into this discussion. Something you have NOT been able to do. So Maximal hyperbole? Your post show that you are clearly suffering from Politically Correct Reactionary-ism so I’ll take that with a grain of salt.

Hi all
Since none of us was present at this incident, we shouldn't really be passing judgment on the adolescent involved,and most certainly not on the police.

The young man was reportedly involved in some white supremacist group, and really, how would you react if you had a gun and were confronted by an apparently crazed individual wielding two knives?

Would you shoot, or try to 'talk him down'?

These officers will have to live with this for the rest of their lives.

Nor are Tazer guns an ideal solutions. They are used in some prisons, and can cause death as well.

Nicky

Paul.L,

There’s so much high octane rhetoric in there it’s hard to know where to start answering it.

>>1) I’m not remotely religious…<<
Somehow I believe you, but you certainly come across as zealous. Point 2 makes me think you had a bad experience that’s now fashioning your defence of the police. That must be where I’m getting the “born-again” vibe.

>>You’re the one standing back making pronouncements on what they should have done and how. Not me.<<

All I’ve said is that the cops should take the path of least damage to control the situation. It’s you who has done all the specious extrapolating. I basically think, to take the David Carradine line, that one should “maim rather than kill, injure rather than maim, subdue rather than injure” etc wherever possible – sound advice I reckon. (BTW, I’m not the slightest bit interested in “Politically Correct Reactionary-ism” as you spin it.) Other than that I’ve speculated on what might have happened and said so, but I am not without my suspicions, based on my experiences. I’ve also admitted that I wasn’t there – what more can I say?

Re the non-lethal technology, the idea for the mesh was just an idea for the future in a separate post and unrelated to apportioning blame for this particular incident.

>>”You say >> “. It's not that hard to do if the police take the whole initiative seriously.”

Really? You know this how? Do you have a prototype or have you just seen it in the movies?<<

Because I know that if the police force, like anyone else, takes an issue seriously, they can fix anything. It is not that technologically difficult to do if they put the resources and effort into it. You should know by now that the lack of political will is the real killer (of the idea) here. … but if you’d only get your blinkers off, you’d see that, Paul.

TBC

>>There is a statute in most criminal codes and also exists in the common law called SELF DEFENCE, maybe you’ve heard of it. Simply put it allows people to act with potentially deadly force if it is required to protect life.<<

Oh I’ve heard of it alright. Take a life to potentially protect a life is what it boils down to in this case. I also understand the bigger law of life: the law of reciprocal action, which applies to everyone in life, cops included. No special privileges for them here, except in the laws of man, which only sit as a subset of, but cannot trump, the wider laws - a very good reason to do the least amount of damage in any given situation.

>> No, what I’ve done is introduce some FACTS into this discussion. Something you have NOT been able to do. So Maximal hyperbole? Your post show that you are clearly suffering from Politically Correct Reactionary-ism so I’ll take that with a grain of salt.<<

Yes you’ve brought forward some facts, and to that extent, fair enough. But you’ve also filled all the gaps, like polyfilla, with your ideological a priori opinion. You’d make a “good” Miss Marple.

A seminal point in this situation is that the primary witnesses – the four cops – have a vested interest in the outcome. The one best able to put a complementary slant on things is dead. Situations like these can lead to spurious claims being made by police – so the investigators need to be alive to this possibility.

Overall, I’m not pretending the kid was an angel. But it could have been a salvageable situation. Not that we’ll ever know now. The potentially bad aspect of this, is that some unsavoury types with an axe to grind with society will use incidents like these to push their own barrows. I’d have thought that was another good reason for cops to use minimal force. I’m sure the more enlightened members of the constabulary are thinking hard right now about how to fend off the political backlash.

Well look at that. More methane created than from a 15YO corpse.
The bottom line in the thread is that customary Common Law doesn't apply any more and anyone hearing the progress of the matter in the media wouldn't care that it was not applied.

Thats where we are going and that is why kids are being shot dead here in Oz and elsewhere in the world.
You will find this a common chord in my ramblings as the NON FARMER.

Even you police writing in blethering about being in the frontline would be aware that if you've pissed off a senior at work and make a tiny tactical mistake under their watch - that your arse will be grass and they'll be the lawnwower.
The greatest danger to this alleged democracy is that we refuse to demand due process.

We know he was 15 years old.
We know his mum could not control him, she rang the police.
We know he was suffering after his fathers death.
We are told he was a red neck white supremacists.
That he may have been on drugs? was that from the press or is it true?
Ten shots, 10 bullets fired from how far away?
No more than 5 mter's surely?
See he as killed because he was threatening police, how long was that knife blade?
You can not shoot a person in the legs if he/she is moving we are told?
Ever been rabbit shooting?
I have often, nothing special 6 rabbits six head shots from 50 meters or more away.
Maybe a couple gut shot on the run from 100 away.
42 police deaths in Victoria 1987 to now, twice the number of NSW in that time, probably more than the total of the whole country in that time.
Some say we defame the police re read the thread, some speak of this dead kid without any evidence like he was a one man crime wave.
He was only 15 years old.
He is dead, he should be alive no way around it cowboys do serve in every police force in every state, I have questions that will never be answered for these three gentlemen, but rest assured they will be found not to have done anything wrong.
We proudly say the law id blind it also is deaf and sometimes dumb but it always looks after its own even if they are criminals.

Re the "net" idea of RobP's.
For many years I have thought that was a good idea after seeing a semi concealed gun net fired from the ground catching wild birds in a survey .

It covered quite a few metres ,I'm guessing, around about a circle at least 5 metres wide and caught a heap of birds as it was very fast and accurate .

It would have to be worth a try one would think if a good mesh was found .

A fire extinguisher full of chemical company stun toxins and glues at the face is my quick pick .

Sort of like a temporary super glue for the eyelids .

Give up going to the Moon and Mars until we get something effective!

Thanks kartya jim.

I think the mesh would be well worth a try for standoffs and domestic violence situations. If it was lightweight enough it could be clipped to a policeman's belt and made standard issue. Otherwise, it could be stored securely in every police patrol car and used on an as-needs basis.

Even with such technology, you'll still get the odd policeman who thinks that just bailing up an aggressor is not enough and will feel the need to sink their boots in or sit their burly frame on the subdued. But at least the lethal option will have been eliminated.

I would steer away from using chemicals to the face if possible as that could lead to poisoning and may have the same, although much slower, effect of using a bullet.

Just a brief comment here because the facts remain unknown. To a NON-Farmer, you will find that some states/territories are Common Law jurisdictions and some are Code jurisdictions (that is, "crimes" are to be found in Criminal codes). Victoria, however, is a Common Law jurisdiction, therefore common law as we know it applies there.

I would suggest also that given the fallout attached to this incident, the Coroner's enquiry would have to be rigorous and supported by forensic evidence.

Reading everyone's comments here, of how much value is capsicum spray, if it failed to subdue this young man? And given the police had nothing in between that, and guns, what choices were available to them? It will be established from the enquiry (although maybe not made public) who was responsible for the fatal shot/s.

I don't seriously think any police officer would have gone in there with the intention to kill this kid, but I do think allowances need to be made for understandable panic any rational person might experience if someone is coming - very quickly - at them with two knives.

If this boy was as mentally disturbed as he is reported to have been, how is it that this had slipped through the cracks of the "system" so that he was able to get to this state?

Nicky

Nicky Nice to see you welcome.
Lets look again at this kid, maybe its me, maybe some lead a sheltered life.
He is in no way the first teenage boy to go bad, if he did in the first few teenage years.
We must remember IF is a word that we must not ignore here Medea so very often makes the news not reports it.

I have seen 15 year olds who did get lost at that age become great kids just a year down the track, we must not judge a troubled child by our standards.

IN my world cops are just human beings, like you and me, and unlike a few who often post on the subject in OLO I am a realist.
I support good cops, they could never be paid what they are worth, a good police officer is pure gold.
Do you know I HAVE seen police kick the hell out of kids? and adults?
Been invited to go shooting dogs killing sheep in a country meat killing yard late at night, gone and shoot police service revolvers.
Returned to the country station to help re load those cartridges so no one would know?
While I stood in a shed doing that my friend took a call bought a prisoner back,
He bashed him while he SAT in a chair.
He filled him with fear, by putting a little dog on Gard, telling the snapping yapping dog to watch the black B&*().
Before I left I asked what did he do? thinking surely he raped some one?
Oh pee,d up against the bank steps!
Police are humans, not wearing halos or being better than us, some are good, some are not, some are very good , some are very bad,
yesterday NSW police after a battle took an adult male into custody after he attacked a woman with an Axe.
After a siege police took him down with tazers, no one was hurt.
Has Victoria more police deaths in custody than all of Australia from 1987 till now?
WHY?

Nicky “If this boy was as mentally disturbed as he is reported to have been, how is it that this had slipped through the cracks of the "system" so that he was able to get to this state?”

What system?

Without elaboration I could tell you of a girl aged mid-twneties, had been experiencing progressively more serious psychosis since overindulging in marijuana on a school trip when she was aged 16.

Her father had spent 2 years trying to get her committed because he believed she was danger to herself and everyone else.

His words fell on deaf ears.

In a psychotic moment she stabbed and carved someone (who I knew) to death with a kitchen knife and is presently in a secure psychiatric ward having been found unfit to plead and will, is she ever becomes ‘fit’, stand trial for murder.

In short, the answer to your question is

There is, no longer a system for him to have fallen between the cracks of.

Fair point Col.

The Mental Health System needs proper Funding .

It's not great Hospital TV Series stuff unfortunately [although one would help] , for the most part it's "all in the mind",until it surfaces, producing grief on a huge scale to those involved, while remaining an occasionally muttered about mystery to others .

It seems that for many in our present generations of younger people mental ill health is still not understood .

This is not good, knowledge must increase and perceptions must change .

Rob P

You say >> “There’s so much high octane rhetoric in there it’s hard to know where to start answering it.

And then you say >> “Somehow I believe you, but you certainly come across as zealous. Point 2 makes me think you had a bad experience that’s now fashioning your defence of the police. That must be where I’m getting the “born-again” vibe.”

Any vibe you’re getting starts and ends with you and your ego.

You say >> “All I’ve said is that the cops should take the path of least damage to control the situation. It’s you who has done all the specious extrapolating.”

What BULLSH!T. You’re the one who has miracle cures for this situation. Spider man nets etc, along with a pollyanna like "no-one gets hurt" attitude. I introduced the reported facts as well as some figures on the difficulty in accurately shooting a handgun in such circumstances, so where does the specious extrapolation come from?

What I’ve said from the beginning is that you can’t sit and judge from the sidelines when you weren’t there.

You say >> “Because I know that if the police force, like anyone else, takes an issue seriously, they can fix anything”

Arrant nonsense. We don’t and never will live in a world were we can eliminate every senseless death.

You say >> “Take a life to potentially protect a life is what it boils down to in this case”

OH, you know of many cases of self defence where that isn’t the case? If the kid doesn’t go nuts with knives no-one gets hurt. Simple. Yet you and people like you want “others” to shoulder the responsibility of this young man’s actions. It’s typical of the culture of zero responsibility encouraged by those on the loony-left.

You say >> “But you’ve also filled all the gaps, like polyfilla, with your ideological a priori opinion. ”

This is astounding from someone who jumped to the conclusion without having any idea of the facts, that the police fired too many bullets, that they didn’t need to fire at all etc

Last two days police in NSW have shot two people none dead
Given 3 police ten bullets in this case, the unproven statement the kids had mental issues I have a question
Why is he dead?
And would some of the opinions seen here change if he was your siblings child?
Or say a young member of the party of your choice?
15 years old, no hardened criminal surely?
A kid
3 cops
ten shots?
42 deaths in Victoria to police with guns? double the same number of NSW in the same time?
Maybe, likely more than the rest of the country in that same period?
Was this kid to blame for them all?

Paul.L,

I'll give you a hint. Take everything you've said about me then look in the mirror. You'll see a strong correlation there, I think.

When the only way you can make your point is to do so at a hundred miles an hour and deliberately distort what someone is trying to say, it shows you are the one who doesn't have a clue and is winging it big time.

Now, would you like to address the points and explanations I made in my posts? Don't you think it makes sense to take the path of minimal harm in any given situation? Don't you think it's suss that the cops had to fire so many bullets?

Did you hear about the incident that occurred today where a woman who was involved in a domestic incident was shot by a young constable and even the person she attacked said that she was running AWAY from the cops at the time and that the constable panicked? Do you know how this was reported? That the woman was waving a knife implying she was threatening the police. The man says it was actualy a fork. Don't you ever think the cops might not be telling the full truth in the dissembling that goes on in their media unit? Do you fully think an issue through at all?

One thing that's been skimmed over here is the fact that Victoria Police have a tradition of " ...fatally shooting members of the public (both innocent and guilty) at a rate exceeding that of all other Australian police forces combined ".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Police#Recent_history_-_controversy_and_corruption_allegations

Maybe things have improved under Christine Nixon, but I wouldn't be looking at police in Victoria as shining exemplars for any police service. Yes, I agree that polioe need to be able to respond effectively to deranged people brandishing knives, but the Victorian case of 10 shots into a teenage kid has to be seen as excessive.

Paul.L's pronouncements on police operational tactics are as usual strident, and are consistent with his armchair general approach to other issues. You know - shoot first, ask questions later, and all that hairy-chested stuff.

This post may well be dead and buried but I will add to it anyway.

I think you are all missing the real point here.

If we had a world without criminals, without lunnies, without druggies and without thuggs, our police would be armed with a note book and perhaps a digital camera.

Remember, 40 years ago, before the do-gooders became a force, we almost had a world like this.

Perhaps we need to re-visit the world where disciplin starts at home and is carried on at schools and workplaces. At least then we may see a return to a time when children respected their elders and police can go to work without the fear of perhaps not returning.

Belly, Col Rouge and Kartiya Jim, you are all absolutely right, of course. The events you have quoted here are quite horrifying, and demonstrate that there are good and bad people to be found in every occupation, and the police force is no different. I have worked as an Education Officer in prisons, and believe me, some of the inmates were infinitely nicer people than some of the custodial officers (and the prison management).

There is an undoubted gap and systemic failure in mental health services, and I think that is because they are not "vote winners", and this leads to and corresponds with deficits in Justice/Corrections systems as a whole.

You have to feel sad for this boy's family. According to reports I read his mother had contacted the police because she believed he was out of control. And reports about Victoria Police in this action, and systemic corruption in the ranks are a cause for serious concern. On the face of it it DOES look like "excessive force" was used, but none of us was there and didn't see the incident. It's easy to make judgments - either way - without having the perspective to do so. How much training in dealing with incidents like this did these officers have? Maybe I'm wrong about Tazer guns, but they can cause death too, and are certainly open to abuse (as I've seen in prisons, along with some of the gas they use to quell riots, which often were not riots at all).

But capsicum spray appears to be pretty useless and that leaves these guys with little with which to defend themselves.

I guess I'm saying we should all try to keep an open mind until more facts emerge.

Nicky

Rob P,

you say >> "I'll give you a hint. Take everything you've said about me then look in the mirror. You'll see a strong correlation there, I think."

What are you a teenage girl?

You avoided discussing ANY of the facts I introduced into this argument. Instead you have decided to change the focus of the discussion.

I have a simple point. You weren't there and therefore you have no place condemning the police for their actions. Wait for the coroners report.

CJ, The mouthpiece of PC.

I see that you have again decided to bait me, instead of argue with me. We all know that I would wipe the floor with you. I'm not alone in that, most of us can. So I'm not surprised you avoid any serious discussion of a subject.

You're like that little barking dog that stays on his side of the fence. Very brave

Maybe I've misjudged you. Maybe you aren't afraid, maybe you're just incapable and trite one-liners is the most you can offer.

So Paul - I note that you don't acknowledge the Victoria Police's woeful record of "fatally shooting members of the public (both innocent and guilty) at a rate exceeding that of all other Australian police forces combined". According to your armchair expertise, that's not relevant to the discussion?

As for your claim that you could "wipe the floor with (me)", thanks for illustrating my point about your hairy-chested belligerence. Now perhaps you could go back to painting the "Warhammer" figurines you got from Santa.

Nicky “have worked as an Education Officer in prisons, and believe me, some of the inmates were infinitely nicer people than some of the custodial officers (and the prison management).”

Me too, although not as a custodial officer.

However, contrary to Nicky’s view

I never forgot that prison officers have to be psychologically tested, are under constant supervision and oversight, are subject to an external inspectorate whereas the prisoners never ended up in prison because of their ethical standards, despite how well they can spin the charm which many would have used in the past to beguile to gullible.

My partner is education manager for a prison and has been in that role for many years. She interviews every new prisoner and decides who will get to do what education course. She hears their bull dust every day and has become adept at spotting and ignoring it..

“I guess I'm saying we should all try to keep an open mind until more facts emerge.”

I guess that would be the best thing too.

PaulL “CJ, The mouthpiece of PC.”

Strangely, Paul, as far as a mouthpiece is concerned, I always associate CJ with a different orifice....

Paul.L,

"You weren't there..."

Neither were you.

"and therefore you have no place condemning the police for their actions."

The only thing I'm condemning is excessive force. I accept, for example, that if a hardened criminal takes up arms with intent against police that the police have a right to use like force. The fact is there have been plenty of situations in the past where police have cracked a walnut with a sledgehammer. This is my point.

"Wait for the coroners report."

The coroner is in the best position to judge after the eye witnesses. Hopefully, the full truth, that swings both ways, won't get distorted or suppressed during the process.

Dear Col, I am neither naive nor gullible - I've been "around the block" enough to evaluate inmates fairly accurately.

The psychological testing used for custodial officers in most states and territories is run by the Australian Institute of Forensic Psychology, and I believe that it is unreliable, to say the least. I underwent that testing for probation work (after having worked successfully in prisons), and failed it. I have no criminal convictions, my only police record entry on the national database is a speeding fine, have never used drugs and do not use alcohol, I have been in a stable relationship for more than 20 years, and there is nothing untoward in my family history. Go figure. One clue is that one of the "battery of tests" was developed in 1940 (hence, according to the AIFP, is not scored by a computer for obvious reasons) and it was developed for a population of senior high school students in the USA. To what extent these tests have been properly "normed" against the appropriate populations in Australia is another story.

This testing, according to the massive research I have done into it, provides for the success of people who want jobs like this so that they can bully people who cannot defend themselves. And I did say that SOME of the inmates are nicer people than SOME of the officers.

Its principal validation criteria are attrition and sick leave. Basically, I think it is a scam. Police officers in many states and territories undergo the same or similar testing, which is possibly why some are good officers, and some are thugs and bullies as happens in all occupations.

I think, with regard to this incident, we can only wait for the Coronial Enquiry which hopefully will establish the precise events.

Nicky

CJ,

You say >> “So Paul - I note that you don't acknowledge the Victoria Police's woeful record of "fatally shooting members of the public (both innocent and guilty) at a rate exceeding that of all other Australian police forces combined"”

You would know that the relevance of this to the case under investigation is almost non existent. Victoria Police may well have some issues but to suggest that the Victoria Police shooting record tells us ANYTHING about what happened that day is patently false and you know it.

I see you are critical of my expertise in this area? I wonder what yours is?

The warhammer thing is funny, but we all not what you like to look at in your spare time, don’t we. Been to any “ART” exhibitions lately?

Rob,

You say >> “The only thing I'm condemning is excessive force.”

No Rob, you condemned the Police who shot this kid for excessive force. Since you were not there you have no place doing this

Paul.L,

If it helps you understand where I'm coming from, I'm actually more of a moderate person but someone who has strong views when innocent or only partly guilty people get nailed for something that wasn't down to them. I'm into justice, basically.

I'm guessing - and I stress only guessing - that as the kid was only 15 he's had some delusions of grandeur or watched too many violent movies or whatever and gone over the top. What's probably likely is that the cops involved had never seen a situaton where someone ignored a warning shot. And what started out as an act of minimal force by the police quickly escalated into one of maximal force. At the very least, everyone should learn from this.

To get back to Foxy's original posting, maybe the police should be trained in a wider array of options for dealing with such people which are proportional to the situation. If the kid really die as a result of "suicide by cop", knowing that cops had a non-lethal option may have acted as a buffer against him even trying. That way, if he really wanted to do it, he wouldn't involve anyone else. In that respect, it's a bit like terrorism: the best approach is to not cave in to their demands.

Nicky “The psychological testing used for custodial officers in most states and territories is run by the Australian Institute of Forensic Psychology, and I believe that it is unreliable, to say the least.”

So why do state governments use it?… conspiracy?

“I underwent that testing for probation work (after having worked successfully in prisons), “. . . .

And here is the reason for discrediting the test, in Nicky’s own words….

“and failed it.”

Maybe if you had passed, you would be less critical of its acumen.

“Its principal validation criteria are attrition and sick leave. Basically, I think it is a scam. Police officers in many states and territories undergo the same or similar testing, which is possibly why some are good officers, and some are thugs and bullies as happens in all occupations.”

She doth complain too much.

“I think, with regard to this incident, we can only wait for the Coronial Enquiry which hopefully will establish the precise events.”

I agree and I think we should resist damning the police and others for supposed failings in a system until we know what any “failings” might or maybe did not occur.

As for mental health, it is recognized that many prisoners are intellectually and mentally impaired, even before they start to self-medicate on drugs. A big lump of custodial prisoners might be better housed in psychiatric units rather than in corrections warehouses but that is an issue to take to state government, not the folk charged with minding them by default.

Paul.L: << You would know that the relevance of this to the case under investigation is almost non existent. Victoria Police may well have some issues but to suggest that the Victoria Police shooting record tells us ANYTHING about what happened that day is patently false and you know it. >>

Why is the relevance of Victoria Police's appalling record of shooting people "almost non existent"? You understand probability and statistics - what makes you discount their salience in this case?

To me, this looks like an incident that fits well into a well-established pattern of police violence in Victoria, and thus warrants very close examination. Yes, let's wait for the Coroner's recommendations, but I'm very sure that s/he will take Victoria Police's horrendous record into account. So should we all.

<< Been to any “ART” exhibitions lately? >>

Ah, so you're still hung up on the 'child pornography' that wasn't, according to all knowledgeable, statutory and other relevant authorities. You really should grow up and get over your strange attitude to the human body.

I'm not surprised you're into 'Warhammer'. So was my 18-year old son until he grew out of it.

CJ,

The relevance of this incident to a discussion on police shootings in Victoria, is obvious. The relevance of the history of police shootings in Victoria, to the question of guilt or innocence of the four police involved in the shooting of the 15yr old boy, is non existent.

Statistics and probability have no role in determining the guilt or innocence of people under the law. Its that simple. The eyewitness and physical evidence, ballistics, etc collected are the only relevant details in such a case.

You say >> “To me, this looks like an incident that fits well into a well-established pattern of police violence in Victoria, and thus warrants very close examination.”

I have no problem with the close examination part, but how it looks to you is supremely irrelevant. Since you weren’t there, you simply don’t know what it looked like, let alone what it actually was.

You say >> “but I'm very sure that s/he will take Victoria Police's horrendous record into account. So should we all.

I see. So we should punish these Police, if they are found guilty, for all the acts committed by Victoria Police over the years? If you knew ANYTHING about the law you would know that the record of a group to which a person belongs is irrelevant when deciding whether they are guilty or not, which is as it should be. Even a persons own past actions cannot usually be admitted into evidence when deliberating upon a persons guilt or innocence over another matter.

After all, you supporters of Henson’s art wouldn’t like to be held responsible for the actions of the predators who hide within your midst. If you continue to bait me with your stupidity ( Warhammer etc ) I will retaliate, and don’t necessarily expect a proportionate response

Rob P

You say >> “I'm guessing - and I stress only guessing - that as the kid was only 15 he's had some delusions of grandeur or watched too many violent movies or whatever and gone over the top. What's probably likely is that the cops involved had never seen a situaton where someone ignored a warning shot. And what started out as an act of minimal force by the police quickly escalated into one of maximal force. “

Then you say >> “At the very least, everyone should learn from this.”

You think we should be acting on the basis of your guesses? Maybe we could do away with trials altogether and just have you guess the guilt or ortherwise of defendents.

We have a presumption of innocence for a reason, to prevent innocent people from being convicted of doing things they haven’t done. Something you claim to be passionate about. Yet you are doing precisely that to these policemen. In the aftermath of a coronial inquest there will be a time to argue over whether police need more training or better weapons etc. Until then, as far is the law is concerned, the police acted appropriately

Dearie me Paul, as a lawyer you'd make a good engineer. If you knew ANYTHING about the law you would know that the Coroner's Court is not bound by the rules of evidence. Indeed, it may

<< ...inform itself in any way it considers appropriate...

After the inquest, the Coroner will give a finding about the case. If the Coroner finds that a person should be charged with a criminal offence, the police and courts deal with the person the same way as with any other criminal case. The Coroner may also give an opinion to help prevent the recurrence of such deaths in future. >>

http://www.apla.com.au/legal/coroner.php

In other words, the Coroner doesn't determine the guilt or innocence of anyone. S/he has a broader brief, which is to determine whether or not there is a case to answer.

Maybe you should stick to 'Warhammer'. Speaking of which,

<< I will retaliate, and don’t necessarily expect a proportionate response >>

You're so intimidating - just as well I'm not a plastic alien.

CJ,

As a PC activist you make an even worse lawyer.

I never suggested the coroner would be the arbiter of guilt or innocence of these men. So the rules of evidence for a coroner’s court are IRRELEVANT. Moron.

If you had bothered to quote what I said it would, of course, have completely undermined your petulant point.

I will say it again so even a disgusting pervert such as yourself can understand.

“The relevance of the history of police shootings in Victoria, to the question of guilt or innocence of the four police involved in the shooting of the 15yr old boy, is non existent.”

As you have so kindly pointed out for us, the coroner does not determine the guilt or innocence of the accused. So you little diversion is entirely irrelevant.

So keep barking little dog. I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised that a PC nerd like yourself would feel brave when you are safe at home in your computer room. But then safe at home in your computer room is no doubt where you indulge your other disgusting habits. A safe haven for a really BRAVE man.

Woof Woof.

By the way, do you have a politically correct dictionary or encyclopedia that dictates your opinions or does green weekly or alternet just give them to you a bit at a time?

Well, Paul, the bottom line is, if my views are not decisive in this case, then neither are yours. Because neither of us were there. If you are a lawyer then maybe you have a vested interest in tilling the soil so that a particular view is looked at favourably by the court?

The penny drops. It explains the your steamroller approach and never-ending argument.

Now that I know what I'm dealing with it's probably not useful to continue this discussion.

I bet Pauly thinks he just "wiped the floor" with me. I suspect he's one of those sad little tools who really wanted to be a cop or a soldier, but was rejected on medical grounds. So now he's an armchair general and expert on policing methods, by virtue of various movies and role-playing games.

Clearly, the appalling record of the Victoria Police with respect to killing people will form part of the Coroner's investigation, as it should - and will be relevant as to whether s/he recommends charges being laid against those who took part in the killing.

As for Pauly's repeated efforts to defame me as a "pervert" - like most reasonable people and the relevant authorities, I thought that the Henson case was a total media beat-up that fed off the prudish moral panic to which he subscribes.

Grow up Paul. Nobody's fooled by your affectations of bravery and morality. Stick with the role-playing games - no doubt you have many 'victories' in those.

Hey guys, do you think we could lower the testosterone here a little? Accusatory statements will not get to the bottom of the issue here. CJ, do you by any chance have any statistics about police shootings? I ask only because I have have never seen any state-by-state comparisons. It would be interesting to note those in the context of the training provided to police officers, also on a state-by-state basis, in dealing with critical incidents.

Having said that, can you be trained to deal with a panic situation? I don't know. I'm just canvassing opinions.

Happy New Year, everyone,
Cheers
Nicky

Col Rouge,
I am sorry you lost your friend in that way and the family will never have justice.
Having the X super Intendant Ron Borrenetti (better know as the barren) of Boggo Road Prison living in my home for many years you certainly learn a lot about our justice system.

Regarding the question has cops in the past got away with murder - Sure they have.
We spent years chasing around missing persons and investigated murders.
In one case a Federal Police officer’s sister was murdered and she was last seen in the company of four detectives.

That led us to another 26 murders that all had but one curious connection.

Some knew each other but not all. However what they all had in common was they had either supplied a statement involving major crime to high ranking police or were about to.

I would like to think things are better at the top now but have no knowledge.
What I do know however is the average uniform cop lays his life (Or hers) on the line each day.

They are sworn at and abused with little thanks from the public for upholding our laws.

I think it’s very unfair to judge what happened as we were not there.

Pls remember these poor little darling 15 year ols are doing B+E mostly as daily way of paying for their drugs.

Gossip can cause irreparable damage. It’s really important that our uniform guys know they have public support. This is the only way later on in life for them to be able to stand up to corruption within the force itself sometimes at higher ranks.’

I think the real crime here is, its very possible, had gooders not have taken the softly approach on drug pushers in the first place- that young boy might never have been running around threatening to kill our police officers off his face.

CJ Moron,

As much as I think Dagget is an idiot, at least it can be said of him that he gets in there and has a go. Your contribution to OLO consists mainly of whining, whinging and sniping at people. Actually discussing the topic at hand is clearly beyond you.

You can bet all you like about what you think I think. Besides being an ultimately pointless exercise you quite plainly aren’t very good at it.

You say >> “I suspect he's one of those sad little tools who really wanted to be a cop or a soldier, but was rejected on medical grounds. So now he's an armchair general and expert on policing methods, by virtue of various movies and role-playing games.”

Most of my close family is in the military which is why I have a rudimentary understanding of the subject. I was never interested in being a policeman, fireman or soldier. I always wanted to earn a stack of money using my brain for a living, which is what I’m doing. Whether you believe me or not is irrelevant.

What we KNOW about you is that you think its ART to view pictures of other people’s naked children. Yet you think smacking children is abuse. We know that you are the person whose picture we might expect to see in the dictionary under Politically Correct numpty.

You say >> “Clearly, the appalling record of the Victoria Police with respect to killing people will form part of the Coroner's investigation, as it should”

It may well do, I certainly never denied it.

You say >> “and will be relevant as to whether s/he recommends charges being laid against those who took part in the killing.”

No it won’t. It’s typical CJ Moron behaviour that you would state this without bothering to find precedent, or even provide an argument. I suppose it doesn’t fit in with your goals on OLO which is to stand on the sidelines and snipe at people. You are a gutless w@nker.

So keep woofing little dog. Its all your good for.

Pauly - I am trying to discuss the topic at hand, which is the recent killing by the Victoria Police of a 15 year-old kid, in what appears to be yet another example of the use of excessive force by that corrupt and sorry organisation. I have said that Victoria Police's appalling record with respect to killing people is relevant to the forthcoming Coroner's Inquest into the matter and is likely to be one of the factors that s/he considers when deciding whether or not the officers who did the shooting have cases to answer.

In your usual bombastic, aggressive and offensive way, you've sought to disguise your error regarding the rules of evidence at a coronial inquest with a barrage of puerile insults - which I've deflected by making fun of you, silly chap. However, as usual, your tone is becoming more shrill and strident by the post.

I'm not at all surprised you're an army brat. All the signs are there: the ultra-conservatism, the propensity to violence, the adulation of all men in uniform, the administration of corporal punishment to your unfortunate kids, the philistinism, the shouting.

While I'm pleased for you that you make lots of money, it clearly doesn't make you happy. Indeed, you come across as a very angry and sad little chappy. I hope that life improves for you in 2009.

Moron,

I had a good old laugh when I read the introduction to your piece. You said >> “I am trying to discuss the topic at hand .. “

Well I suppose there is a first for everything. If you stuck to the topic at hand and actually had something useful to add, rather than just your weak insults, you might find other people would engage you on an adult level.

You say >> “you've sought to disguise your error regarding the rules of evidence at a coronial inquest with a barrage of puerile insults”

Is that really the best you can do? You can’t actually win an argument, you simply claim it and hope no-one notices.

Show me where I made an error regarding the rules of coronial inquiries? In fact it was you who made the error by confusing my statement about the guilt or innocence of the police with coronial rules of evidence.

I have already repeated what I said exactly. I will do so again because I know you have grave difficulty with comprehension.

What I said was “The relevance of the history of police shootings in Victoria, to the question of guilt or innocence of the four police involved in the shooting of the 15yr old boy, is non existent.”

Since as I also said recently, and you so rightly pointed out, the coronial inquiry does not determine guilt or innocence, it is supremely irrelevant what evidence regarding police history the coronial inquest will admit.

That you simply cannot comprehend how, as a fundamental matter of JUSTICE, the actions of OTHERS cannot be used as evidence to determine a person’s guilt or innocence, does not surprise me. Your education being as limited as it clearly is

You say >> “I have said that Victoria Police's appalling record with respect to killing people is … likely to be one of the factors that s/he considers when deciding whether or not the officers who did the shooting have cases to answer.”

TBC

CONT,

Yes well we know you’ve said it. What we haven’t seen is any argument as to WHY the actions of OTHER people should determine whether these four police have a case to answer. I’ve already called you out on this point in my previous post and it seems you are entirely unable to mount a case as to WHY. Nor have you resorted to precedent to show where it has been done in the past.

In any case, my original statement that you took issue with regarded the GUILT or INNOCENCE of these police. A question which is NOT answered in a coronial inquest.

Frankly I also laughed my ass off when I read this >> “In your usual bombastic, aggressive and offensive way … as usual, your tone is becoming more shrill and strident ...”

Coming from someone who rarely posts anything other than personal attacks and abuse, I thought this was outrageously IRONIC. We all know who regularly pens 50 word posts to attack people and not their argument, don’t we? CJ Moron.

You say >> ” the ultra-conservatism, .. the adulation of all men in uniform, ... corporal punishment ... the shouting.”

Ultra conservative? Sorry but to you loony-lefters the Rudd Gov’t are facists so I won’t take that to heart. I certainly am proud of our men and women in the armed forces and the job they do under difficult circumstances.

I am surprised that as a regurgitator of Politically Correct views, you aren’t in one of the social services teaching basket weaving. The desire to see other peoples naked children, the MORAL PANIC at the thought of a child being smacked, even though you must certainly be old enough to remember corporal punishment at school. (you probably avoided it though being a gutless kissass who said whatever others wanted you to say), then there’s the ingrained but apparently acceptable racism of hating America and Americans and the shrill cries of Islamophobia anytime Muslims are mentioned.

I love the shouting bit, by the way. A bit sensitive are we petal?

Keep barking little dog.

Col, I missed your response to my post about the AIFP - sorry! No, I don't think I protest too much, having seen lots of custodial staff in action, bullying and even seriously abusing inmates often for no good reason - for example, I had one student who was undertaking a university degree. He had a laptop issued by the prison with all his university work for the year on it.

There was an incident, from which he was far removed, and his laptop was confiscated, and the entire content wiped. That is rehabilitation?

Nor do I think the fact that state governments are involved in a conspiracy in the use of the AIFP testing - I think the Director of the AIFP is a good snake oil salesman who has managed to suck them in. And it has no doubt made him a rich man. However, using the validity criteria of attrition, of 11 aspiring probation officers who were successful in the testing, 7 had quit within months and two were on extended sick leave (stress). And that's not even working in a prison, it's working in offices in the city. I didn't have to do the test to work in prisons.

But back to the topic at hand - I'd still be interested to see any state-by-state statistics relating to fatal shootings, and critical incident training if anyone can provide links.

Nicky

paul.l,

Fair go Paul, What's with the anger and name calling....

Anger and fear are what we want to chip away at .

I hope all of the OLO contributors have a Happy 2009 .

Sounds like Pauly's had a bit too much New Year's cheer at today's barbie. Settle down, old chap.

True to form, you've escalated the name-calling instead of responding reasonably to my last comment. The next stage is an interminable textual mutual masturbation session - but I'm not going to play.

I actually meant it when I said you come across as angry and sad, and that I hope that things improve for you in 2009. You're much too young to be so bitter and twisted.

Happy New Year, Paul.

Krtiya Jim,

If this acrimony with the Moron seems like it has come out the blue then you should realise that CJ's been sniping at people ever since I came to OLO 2 years ago. I specifically told him I would be prepared to discuss the subject but that I would not wear his abuse lying down. He tested me and has had to back away like the girly swat he is. Did you not notice his name calling and abuse? Or is it OK for him?

Ask Dagget, ask PolyCarp, ask Col Rouge and a dozen others who have rarely been engaged in argument by the Moron, merely sniped at, abused or ridiculed. I find that type of behaviour gutless and extremely distasteful, not to mention innapropriate on a discussion site such as this.

If you know all this and are still wondering, well I can't help you.

I had a lovely new year, thank you all for asking. I'm quite prepared to discuss the subject devoid of all the abuse. Since CJ's contribution to OLO consist almost entirely of standing on the sidelines abusing people I'm not sure whether he can do the same. Lets hope so