Aaah Pericles.. we are perilously close to something resembling 'meaningful discussion' here.. a good sign.

You said:

<<The "evidence" was largely in his own head>> exxxxxxxACTLY... that was his problem.. he made it up.

Which is of course the WHOLE difference between my focus on Surah 9 and Mosely's approach. He did not have real evidence, I do.

But let's not wail away on that now or FH will spike my next big mac and my demise will be certain :) I feel that observers can see what's going on in your head.. some kind of Mosely fetish and maybe an overbearing Grand-dad.... who knows.

LORDS PRAYER... The only thing I can repeat about this is that I like the idea. The future of the Church does not depend on it being mentioned in Parliament, but the values which it contains certainly can have a positive impact on the community.

Imagine how many crimes would evaporate if we just had the

"give us this day our daily bread" and "forgive us AS we forgive those who sin against us".

...approach eh?

Our jails would just about empty overnight.

The problem of just emphasizing such values in a godless world, or community, is there is no reference to the ultimate sanction of judgement... hence they will not be felt with much clout.

This leads back to the issue of the heart and loving God above all else.

10 "This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. (1 John 4)

Polycarp,

"COGENT ARGUMENT 'FOR' retaining the Lords Prayer? I don't have one CJ.. I'd just say that it is a valued cultural tradition which gives me a 'feel good' moment."

"Spikey.. are you noting this acknowledgment?"

Yes indeed, Polycarp, I am; and you could have knocked my socks off! You admitting you don't have a COGENT ARGUMENT FOR anything. (Now if only you'd knock off the capital shouts.)

Next you'll be conceding that Muslims have 'valued cultural traditions' that give them 'feel good' moments. And we can all sleep safe and sound at night knowing it's all sound signifying nothing more than warm fuzziness.

PC: "He did not have real evidence, I do."

Poly, you are deluded.

PC: "The problem of just emphasizing such values in a godless world, or community, is there is no reference to the ultimate sanction of judgement... hence they will not be felt with much clout."

Pollies, along with the general population, should strive to do the right thing *because* it is the right thing, not because they fear their personal judgment. The self-interest at the heart of Islam, or Christianity (sorry, I forget which one you are), is the reason we should separate church and state.

Dear Polycarp,

I appreciate your noting my posts.
And, please don't worry about my
neighbours not coming to my aid in
case of intruders.

We're all good
friends and regularly play with our
Lego sets...

Please, Boaz, do not try amateur psychology as well,or I might be tempted to analyse your contributions in a similarly superficial and insulting manner.

>>some kind of Mosely fetish and maybe an overbearing Grand-dad.... who knows.<<

And we are indeed at the nub of the discussion, right here.

>>Which is of course the WHOLE difference between my focus on Surah 9 and Mosely's approach. He did not have real evidence, I do.<<

You don't, Boaz.

I know that you think you do. I know in fact that you have convinced yourself that your selective usage of verses from the Qur'an constitutes evidence.

But I would ask you to contemplate carefully.

Evidence of what?

You move rapidly from a personal and idiosyncratic interpretation of ancient texts, to a position that the existence of these texts somehow constitutes a threat to us all.

Precisely the actions of a Mosley. He used different - more contemporary, for one - texts, of course, but to precisely the same end: to instill fear and loathing in the hearts of his audience.

As I carefully explained:

"It involved attributing conspiracy, hatred, financial duplicity, all manner of crimes, to his enemies. It did not involve much by way of fact. What facts that did exist were twisted and distorted."

This is an accurate description, Boaz, of your writings here.

Just out of curiosity. How many Surah are there? How many verses in total? And how many have you chosen to be representative of the goals and objectives of an entire religion?

I would remind you once again of the words of the mighty Rab:

"O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us
An foolish notion"

Your "foolish notion", Boaz, is to imagine imminent mortal danger. Your mistake is then to believe that promulgating this foolish notion is somehow important enough to ignore all other realities.

Have a great, hate-free day.

Policarp,
Here's my contribution and the consultancy bill is in the mail.

The Lord prayer is too long, tedious and outdated for today's Australians.
I recommend it be redesigned for our times. After considerable public consultation (the mirror)I have come up with a prefered option but would be open to alternatives.
Recomended

"Our lord,lady....to whom it may concern.
PLEASE help us because this lot won't.
Amen
Your's truly rulely."

followed by 'Whose turn in the trough is it?'
:-) Snigger snigger he he ha HA