This may seem a rather insignificant issue in comparison to some other issues within the spheres of ‘Fair Trade’ and ‘Human Rights’. However, although it may seem relatively unimportant, it affects all of us, and every decision we make daily as consumers makes huge impacts on the lives of people we will never know.

‘Out-sourcing’ is a nice way of describing how western corporations meet the huge supply demands. Put simply, they employ cheap labour overseas to produce the products at a minimal manufacturing cost. Then they export them to western markets with a considerable mark-up price on the item and make a nice, tidy profit.

See below for an example:

http://www.monthlyreview.org/mrzine/templer220807.html

The article above tells you about the life of a Chinese factory worker. From the 12 hour, 7 days a week work regime, to the scanty wages and crowded living conditions, life as a factory worker is less than appealing. They have no paid sick leave, no days off, and are often exposed to highly-toxic chemicals without protection.

Some images showing factory workers:

http://www.mazm.com/2007/09/19/38.toys-manufacture-in-china-25-pics.html

It could be argued that these factory workers are at least making a living, have shelter over their heads, and food in their bellies.

But the issue is not IF the Chinese factory workers are living, but HOW they are living (which is very poorly indeed). Human Rights abuses are everywhere though these factories. And what’s worse is their suffering is inflicted by the western consumerists need to supply all their wants, and their want to have it all and have it cheaper. If there wasn’t the demand, there wouldn’t be the factories, and the Chinese factory workers would be able to establish their own lines of work and lead more productive lives.

And what the heck can we do to help the situation? Easy. When you go shopping for toys or any product, especially in regards to Christmas this year, have a squiz at the label and see if the product has been…

MADE IN CHINA

SOS Student

Many of us are aware of the human rights abuses in China. However, we are also aware of the heinously cruel practices the Chinese perpetrate on billions of animals.

This ancient "civilisation" remains a country of barbarians - a depraved race indeed. Poverty is no excuse for sadism!

Chinese imports are now contaminating Westerners (including their animals) and human and animal deaths in the West have been documented.

Now I shall await the scorn from the bleeding hearts.

In the meantime, have a look at the links I have provided and ask yourself, "If there were no human rights abuses, would I purchase anything made in China anyway?"

The problem we have in Australia, is that one must often travel miles to purchase a product which is not "made in China" but I would say "it's worth it!"

Cheers

http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/005463.html

http://www.peta2.com/takecharge/t-chinafur.asp

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-407693/Un-bear-able-Chinas-cruel-animal-Olympics-reach-new-heights.html

http://www.hsus.org/about_us/humane_society_international_hsi/cruelty_issues_around_the_world/dying_for_fur_recent_investigation_shows_cruelty_at_chinese_fur_farms.html

Why do the animal rights activists at OLO invariably make overtly racist comments?

<< This ancient "civilisation" remains a country of barbarians - a depraved race indeed >>

Cripes.

I can assure you, it does nothing for your cause.

SOS student

Hello SOS Student.

Well tbo if we dont wake up in Australia soon and MAKE our Government put infustructure back into this country we will be working for a bowl of rice too- and scrambling to get it.

Your corrrect in what you say and of course rember China havent put her prices up as yet- but they will.
I dont think Dickie is trying to be racist at all SOS.

I do understand what cJ is saying however. I hope you never see the footage that Dickie and others like her have to look at everyday.

Then I am sure you would understand her comments and jolly well let loose yourself.
Isnt it funny how these issues are interlinked.

For example if the Australian Government were not in bed with the cruel live animal trade industry then we would not be in such a bad postion.

Its not rocket science after all to work out that we should be the ones with farmers co ops producing powered milk to China NOt sending our cows alive to China!

Same applies throught the industry SOS. Many thngs are made from raw materials such as Animal products- meat Costemics skins bi proucts which small goods are made from.

IMOP I think China and some people in UK will have a lot to do with loans involving the world crash.

Just imagine if later down the track the UN delare USA UK us Assuies war criminals afer Iraq. Sanctions are impossed etc ...

I like your thread and comments and look forward to reading more of your comments when I return from the bush

DEPRAVED RACE? yes, quite true.. just as true as is the statement:

"Australians are a depraved race because they buy the products"

but neither are in fact true because it is not a 'racial' issue it is a values issue.

More accurately "The Chinese government operates on depraved principles of human exploitation" and the Australian public indirectly supports them by buying the products.

I don't see how this is any different from the slave days. Lot's of people benefited from cheaper cotton products because the labor was free.

We are all depraved. "All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God" says Paul. Depravity is not limited to the Chinese though, it is the universal human condition.

"Do for others as you would have them do for you" said Jesus.

Unfortunately, when people believe that there is no Creator to whom they are accountable, and they also know that life is limited... perhaps they say "Why bother?...get what you can while you can and enjoy it..for tomorrow we die"

Dear SOS Student,

You've raised some very valid points,
regarding human-rights issues with
products, "Made in China," "Made in
Indonesia," et al.

There is no doubt that Western companies are making
huge profits out of the products produced in these
countries, under appaling conditions. And, we're
stuck with buying them, because often, that's all
that's available.

Take a look at the "Designer" labels in
fashion, just as one example.
Westerners pay hundreds of dollars
for the "name," but look more closely,
and it will
read, "Made in China."

The prices are not reduced
for our markets, despite the "cheap" labour.
Companies are making an enormous profit at
all our expense.

The author is clearly very young, and should be commended for the concern s/he expresses on behalf of people not so well off as we are in this country.

But it does puzzle me why China is the prime concern here.

It is a country that is improving the lot of its citizens every year, by making stuff that the rest of the world wants, at prices the rest of the world can afford. We are actively helping these people emerge from poverty by continuing to buy their output.

The quickest way to return these folk to worse living conditions is to stop doing so.

"And what the heck can we do to help the situation? Easy. When you go shopping for toys or any product, especially in regards to Christmas this year, have a squiz at the label and see if the product has been…MADE IN CHINA"

It is a strange perversion of logic to suggest that we would be helping these people by starving them of business - what does the author believe would be the fate of these people if their employer suddenly found themselves without a market for their toys? A cushy unemployment benefit, perhaps? A golden handshake?

I don't think so.

Rather than spending valuable energy on promoting the destruction of a country that is making progress in the world, would it not be more humane to divert political brainpower to solving some of the really intractable problems we see every day in Africa?

http://tinyurl.com/5bkqup

http://tinyurl.com/56uqku

It is about time that we accept that China is now strong enough to ignore us completely, and continue to forge its own path to creating prosperity for its citizens. We might not like it, but they are taking a well-trodden path from poverty to affluence, and there is nothing we can - or should - do about it.

Head explosion. BD and CJ agree.

Always, everywhere, somebody is getting unfairly exploited. Most of us know it but keep buying the end product anyway.

IMO the best we can do is mark our own boundaries, work out for ourselves what we will and will not support. I'll buy Chinese but still won't support Nestle, Telstra, Coke, Pepsi or American fast food.

I refuse to pay inflated prices
simply because it has a "designer"
label attached to it, when the product
clearly says, "Made in China," on it.

I'm not going to add to some Western
companies mega bucks.

Hey everybody, great to see your comments.

Firstly, Dickie. Thanks for your input. I was aware of the animal 'trade' in China. Your comment,

<This ancient "civilisation" remains a country of barbarians - a depraved race indeed. Poverty is no excuse for sadism!>

invites many points for discussion. I would not neccessarily agree that they are all barbarians though; there are always the rotten apples that spoil the whole barrel (with most of them being found in the government or positions of power) and that the Chinese have a few customs that conflict with our own value systems, eg they apparently lack conscience in regards to cruelty, of animals or people of their own race (I am not attempting to condone this, by the way). I admire your dedication though, keep it up. :)

Also some great comments from People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming. I'll have to think about some of those comments for a while, they are very thought-provoking. Hope you have fun in the Bush, anyhow.

Polycarp, what you said is all too true. Chinese cruelty is only a reflection of the human race's downfall into sin. I suppose western nations are blessed to have their constitutions and social value system modelled on the morals of the Bible.

Pericles also has some interesting points, and I'll try do my best to answer the queries raised. Firstly I'll admit I am quite young, actually still a student (hence tmy name) and I am still learning/have a lot to learn about the world around me and its issues.

Quote:And what the heck can we do to help the situation? Easy. When you go shopping for toys or any product, especially in regards to Christmas this year, have a squiz at the label and see if the product has been…MADE IN CHINA

By this comment I was by no way suggesting an international boycott of all Chinese products. That would be silly, it is necessary for the health of their economy to trade! Though re-reading my comment now I apologize for lack of clarity. My intention was to highlight the explotation of Chinese workers by Western Manufacturers, and when shopping to 'limit' or 'restrict' these products. Chinese-made and Chinese-exported products are excluded. It is not the Chinese at all I am badgering, but the Western companies. If we pestered them enough, and threatened not to buy their products unless they treated their workers more decently, they would (hopefully) comply (or they wouldn't, in which case the Chinese workers wouldn't be any worse off - their jobs still retained). They already employ the cheapest workers on the planet, so it would be a terrible financial decision on their part if they were to fire them as there would be no-one else left to make their products at a cheaper price. And it isn't so much to ask of them to improve their worker's conditions and pay - they make mega-profits.


And the reason I chose China to discuss instead of a country from Africa is the fact that everybody talks about fair trade and human rights in Africa. My first preferences would be with Africa, and to be sure the issues China faces seem, to quote, 'insignificant' by comparison. But they still face issues, and these issues need to be addressed and discussed, for fear of them slipping past the radar altogether.

You're still missing an important point, SOS Student.

>>My intention was to highlight the explotation of Chinese workers by Western Manufacturers, and when shopping to 'limit' or 'restrict' these products. Chinese-made and Chinese-exported products are excluded.<<

The products you are concerned about are all "Chinese-made and Chinese-exported" They don't differentiate between a toy made under licence from Mattel, one counterfeited from a Mattel original and one made by Mattel themselves.

>>It is not the Chinese at all I am badgering, but the Western companies.<<

The workers themselves do not discriminate between factories. One that had been built and funded by a US giant provides work as good as that built and funded locally.

In fact, given the attention paid by the well-meaning media over the years, the US-owned version probably pays better, and provides better working conditions than the local.

But here's the rub.

>>If we pestered them enough, and threatened not to buy their products unless they treated their workers more decently, they would (hopefully) comply (or they wouldn't, in which case the Chinese workers wouldn't be any worse off - their jobs still retained).<<

You couldn't be more wrong.

If you insisted on unrealistic demands, they would simply close their factory and walk away. A straightforward commercial decision.

The world of business does not exist only to give workers something to do. It gives something for capital to do as well. And capital does not simply materialise from thin air, it needs to be created somewhere.

Usually by people who start off earning wages, and eventually save enough to start a business of their own.

The most constructive approach is to keep buying their products, and create millions of entrepreneurs who can be of maximum benefit to their economy.

At which point, it will be us who are out of a job, and willing to work for peanuts.

But that's another story, isn't it...

C J Morgans question is valid.
Why the intense racism?
Is it that only WASPs get it right? that our culture is right others wrong?
China is not just about animal welfare, surely every thread is not to be diverted to that subject?
I too have concerns about the safety of some Chinese imports I ask can it be some workers in China know its export?
Is it like shearing shed hands who once deliberatly put black Polly rope in our export wool?
Or those who packed used news papers for all the Pacific Islands and packed out of date play boy magazines inside?
China like it or not is a better place than it was ten years ago.
If right now this instant we stopped all trade with China buying and selling, we would be a third world country forever.
How many of us do not agree animal cruelty is wrong?
How many think the heated insults in threads about that subject, even words of hate against some of our own country men, ever win support for the cause?

I am twix & between on how to comment on this.
SOS Student has some valid comment.
I have had a small amount of business dealing with Chinese and it
confirmed the comments of a friend who has had a lot of business
dealings in China.

If you deal with them the concept of fairness is very far from the top
of their agenda. Make sure you have every i dotted and every t crossed.
They will take every opportunity to rip you off.

Generally if you have it locked up tight they will comply to the letter
here in Australia as they know the courts will not play ball.
That is not so much true in China itself, but I have heard it is
improving.
It is the cultural business ethic.
They seem to treat their employees with the same ethic.
They are also very racist in their pricing and negotiations.

However globalisation is coming to an end with oil depletion.
Already container costs between China & the USA is pushing trade in
large lower cost items such as furniture out of the US market.
The problem with the Australian governments (both parties) is that
they take no heed of the differences in pay levels and just expect
Australians to take home less or give it all away.

If I had my way I would saw off the rest of the world and only import
the very most difficult products to produce such as large passenger
aircraft. They won't be needed in the future anyway.

Hi SoS Student

You are correct when you say that not all Chinese are barbarians. There are in fact groups in China who are endeavouring to rescue these hapless animals from the barbarians.

The difference between China and the Western nations are the West’s regulations (slack as they may be) and the fact that China’s animal cruelty is ritualized – anytime, any place is where one can witness the gaping chasm of inhumanity that lies at the heart of China's philosophy and their appreciation of needless and gory mayhem.

All undercover footage exposing the barbaric practices in the West and elsewhere, are carried out by animal welfare groups. Without the dedication of these compassionate people, we would have no idea of the depths of depravity to which the West has descended or of how they greedily trade off the misery of other species:

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:K4F0cbkrM_4J:www.celsias.com/article/cruelty-video-prompts-recall-of-143-million-pounds/+humane+society+cattle+cruelty+pigs+video&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=au&lr=lang_en

The storm trooping bigots on OLO, goose-step from thread to thread to whack their opponents with a race placard, whacking particularly those concerned with animal welfare. Clearly, the bigots support animal cruelty. However, there appears a degree of dyslexia with these bigots, since, I for one, am well known on this forum for also describing the Australian government as “depraved” and “sadistic!”

Civilized humans understand his/her obligation is not to ill-treat a vulnerable being – human or non-human. The playing field is stacked against food animals where sportsmanship is a myth.

contd......

Brought forward:

Despite the appalling record of human and animal abuse in China, our governments and their cruel connections continue to suck up to China.

"Because of our proximity to China and because of connections through things like mining and of course the imports we get from China we're well positioned to broaden that relationship into things like professional services and financial services," says Finance Minister, Lindsay Tanner, during which time research and development in Australia has been whacked, the manufacturing industry is a non-event and an increase in live exports sees further jobs going overseas while the majority of our exports are non-renewable.

It appears China is also heading into a real slowdown partly due to losing so much of its sales of consumer goods around the world. The States have lost nearly all their manufacturing and have been living on imports, mainly from China, just as Australia has done.

Bankrupted Smart Union, a Chinese supplier to the US Mattel toy company, has not paid its 6,500 employees in the export-oriented southern city of Dongguan for two months, the China Daily reported. Workers claim the owners have fled.

Last Friday about 1,000 workers gathered at the factory in Zhangmutou, before moving on to local government offices guarded by about 100 policemen.

The number of Chinese firms exporting toys overseas halved in the first seven months of 2008, compared to the year before.

China’s top export destination is the US and Australia is one of China’s top importers. Could there be trouble with the sleeping dragon?

Can the environment sustain this ravenous genus indefinitely? Are we all soon to eat "cake?" Hopefully Karma will sort that out soon for we must not place our trust in the unrestrained greed of our "empire builders!"

Its radical to believe that Chinese people know nothing of Human Rights.They just are not able to fight against this stalemate they are living in.Its possible and is,that many Chinese enjoy the five
day work week,and working only eight to nine hours a day.They are the
ones whom work for most affiliated American companies,and thus also
enjoy the similiar life style of most Americans.They do enjoy more
in their paychecks,and are with their families ,to have travel and
family outings.They enjoy the real expensive housing and transportati
on. They do work hard. Though working can bring forth another good
subject for discussion.

Made in China. Being American,we have most everything made from China
and its a no show for almost any good American product.We also have
the Australian Imports flooding the sales floors of most stores,as W
almarts,Targets,and many other discount stores.You can not buy a sove
nier from any state,without the Made in China.The wares which are sol
d in the states,are decidedly the same issue as the Chinese people m
ust buy themselves.The same inferior shoes,clothing,and electronics
as well.

Pericles - thank the gods for your sensible and measured approach.

I am constantly hearing Western people go on about the terrible conditions under which Chinese people work - never having seen firsthand, or met with, a Chinese worker in their lives.

Yep. You're correct. Compared to Westerners Chinese people get paid peanuts. Hell, I'm not a Chinese person but I get paid the same rate as my Chinese colleagues and, compared to Australian salary scales, I get paid peanuts!

But, unlike my Australian counterparts my "peanuts" allow me to dine in 5 star restaurants, take overseas holidays when the whim overtakes me, patronise health spas, manicurists, dental cosmeticians, etc. if and when I so desire.

Factory workers work longer hours than any factory in Australia but then so do academics, entrepreneurs, cooks, and CEO's. They are totally shocked by the 9 to 5, weekend-off, public holidays and annual-leave working-styles of Western countries and consider this shows lack of dedication, loyalty and the working ethic.

And contrary to the person who fondly imagines that the American companies treat their workers better? They are notorious for both being the largest polluters and for treating their workers unethically. MacDonalds workers across the country last year had to all go out on strike simply in order to get their wages increased to the minimum wage.

There are inequalities, cruelties and barbarism in China. There are inequalties, cruelties and barbarism in Australia. Only when one has has removed the plank in one's own eye does one have cause to comment on the mote in another's.

Romany of cause knows better than most and Pericles put it in better words than mine.
I have, as a trade unionist, had the privilege of meeting Chinese unionists in Australia.
They male and female did not have two heads.
I have been branded , clearly it was me as well as others, an OLO.
well read the stalled thread on animal welfare then re read this one.
China had a culture long before some of our ancestors.
We could find much to dislike about any culture, why not look for the good?
How can any one? any one at all, think the words tossed about by animal welfare posters bring anything but contempt to their cause?
China is not an evil country animal welfare is not all there is to that country and we will continue to trade with them like it or not.

Pericles, Romany and Belly

I am in full agreement with you. To attempt to boycott Chinese goods will only hurt the worker.

For conditions to improve China must join the 21st century. And Romany's comments about the way the USA treats its workers is spot on - having lived there and worked as a waitress.

Yes, there is a lot wrong in China but by keeping the lines of communication open we will see an improvement. Better than than have business monopolies bring Australian working conditions and pay down to third world levels.

A fair place for all and helping China and India and other emerging nations instead of black-banning will achieve more than any boycott.

BTW calling people barbarians and bigots does not win them over either.

Hi everybody

SOS student,+ Bazz" 'well put'jobe, Also
Romany your wrong.

Pericles, is correct.

sos i`m back earlier than thought.
from
pls allow us now to play pin the tail on the donkey:)



Ah Belly, with your lack of understanding why we cant seperate animal cruelty from own our diseases, unemployment, trade, China Australias future.


The best way to explain it SOS is to look at Bellys comments over a long period of time.

He`s a bit like old Ploycarp the religious poster who thinks you can seperate animal welfare from the human race.-
"Shame on church Leaders"

*I have, as a trade unionist, had the privilege of meeting Chinese unionists in Australia.*

Belly its the duty of a trade unionist is to protect jobs for the Australians.

Lets go back to the time you DEMANDED to know what Animal Welfare was posting on the threaded headed Trade Rudd and CHINA.

You were outraged we would dare comment on a thread involving China.

I had to explain to you back then that Australia was sending live animals to 'China' to produce milk products to THEN be sent back to Australia after value adding. I told you it would spread diseases.

( FYI) Value adding is when you take a raw product and manufacture food etc and re sell it as a profit .

You see belly all value adding and jobs start from the basics=

"The supply of raw material."Agriculture feeds us.

Australia should be producing the milk under strick health and Animal Welfare guidelines HERE. #Not the other way around#.

Cruelty to animals is certainly NOT removed from our own survival.

In this case we are 'exporting jobs to China' and risking our own health.
Animal cruelty, jobs, diseases trade to China and elsewhere can not be seperated as it all STARTS Animal welfare standards.

NO health standards in other countries for Animals?= then there is NO health care either for Australian familes forced to purchase China and other import products.

You can Turn around now belly and take the tail off.

Stick it on our shirt:)

China has made some huge mistakes when it comes to human rights and the lack of regulation for the treatment of animals.

But like Fractelle, Romany, Belly and Pericles above it is easy to point the finger at others and ignore the West's own record on animal and human rights. Both in and outside of our own territories - just look at the devastation (human and environmental) in some countries by Western government sanctioned mining companies. In America you can be left dying in the waiting room of a hospital if you have no insurance - this is equally barbaric.

I have always found individual Chinese to be polite, respectful and deeply concerned about human rights issues. Most Australians I know were against the invasion of Iraq but governments often act in ways contrary to wider public opinion and this is true of all governments.

The best reason for not buying Chinese (or any other OS product) is because of the carbon miles it takes for those goods to reach us particularly for agricultural products. I won't buy vegetables or fruit from overseas for this reason and for the fact that our own quarantine inspection service misses a lot of sub-standard contaminated product.

There needs to be some sort of balance.

I'm not suggesting that we place a
ban on all Chinese products. However,
I do feel that the time has come when
we need to have a re-think about why
and what we should be supporting.

When typical Australian souvenir products
for our tourism industry, such as toy
koalas et cetera - are being sold with a
"Made in China," label - the question
arises - what's happened to our locally made
product?

When Qantas airlines - that used to be maintained
in Australia, and is now being maintained in Asia,
suddenly becomes an "unsafe" airline - we need to
ask - why?

What's wrong with supporting our local industries
and people - why send so much overseas, at our own
expense?

"Made in China," is a choice that we can have.
There's nothing wrong with that.
But, it becomes a bit of a worry - when you rarely
find "Made in Australia," on the shelves.

Foxy

The answer is cheap labour.

Pelican

Good point about food & carbon miles. I do try to buy food as close to home as possible for both reasons of quality and carbon miles. I never buy "out-of-season" anyway and have started growing my own garlic since the supermarkets supplies only Chinese or Mexican. I bought some from the local organic shop and grow that. But food is a very good place to make an impression without completely deserting the Chinese worker.

Yes, I too was appalled when, living in the "Sunshine State" I found tropical fruits in the supermarkets were almost exclusively imported. One of the reasons I would only buy at fruit and veg. shops was in order to buy local.

Also, was my face red when, presenting a swathe of "Australian" souvenirs to friends and students when I returned from my last trip to Oz, we discovered that, as you say, each cuddly koala and dolphin notepad etc. had Made in China stickers on them.

Conversely, this summer in England I noticed a huge difference. The shoes I bought (oh, the joy of finding shoes to fit: Chinese shoes are made for DOLLS)came from Brazil, Spain and Italy, clothes from Canada, Lithuania(!), Spain, India, etc. and, contrary to urban myth, they were all so much cheaper than similar products (Made in China or not)available in Australia.

Admittedly it was the "Sale" season but I paid on average Five pounds for each pair of my genuine leather shoes with only one pair costing the dizzy amount of Ten pounds, dresses of pure cotton the same, while books - all published in UK - could be bought brand new for One pound - even the latest publications. Do the conversion to Ausdollars: I think we are being fed an absolute crock when told how cheap goods are in Australia because of Asian outsourcing.

So whats the real China story?

Are we complicit in her "outward march ambitions" if we buy from her?

If we buy Chinese, dont we support her system of government and all her government stands for...now and in the future?

Its not as if she is going to change to please the West..after all who are the West to such an old civilisation?

She will remain herself and do as she pleases.

http://whatwillbecomeofaustraliajackburrell.blogspot.com/

Pericles,

I feel a bit frustrated. Your points are very good and the discussion well-founded, but I was not suggesting a boycott on all Chinese products, or a complete abstinence from all products from Western companies that use Chinese factories.

Foxy has my view more in context. Balance.

Your comment:
<'If you insisted on unrealistic demands, they would simply close their factory and walk away...'>

I think shows a very real scenario, and that is why I am not insisting on unrealistic demands. Just to let them [the Western companies] know we are aware of human rights, and we want them to do something about it. I am not suggesting by this that they start giving their factory workers the VIP treatment, just that they make an improvement to the working conditions and increase their workers wages to meet the legal minimum. These are not ridiculous requests.

Also, for clarification, I will tell you what I mean by 'letting the Western companies know'. I DO NOT mean a boycott. This is an extreme action, and I know it will reap extreme consequences. I am suggesting, that if it is possible for the consumer, to look at alternatives that will promote fair trade. By saying, 'If we pestered them enough, and threatened not to buy their products,' I mean writing letters, and posting internet forums to let the Western companies know that consumers care about the conditions of their workers. I acknowledge that the Chinese have a very good (if some what extreme) work ethic, and if they want to exploit their own people that is their decision. I might not agree with the way they treat their workers, but that would be their choice as a separate nation and people.

However Western companies should know better (ok, I know thats a laugh, but I'm not joking). As Western companies, I think they should abide by Western ethics (and not the business code of ethics which promotes exploitation, by the way) and treat their workers a bit more fairly.

Hi People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming

Hope your trip went well, even if it was somewhat brief.

Must say in regards to your latest post, although you have some very good points, I am inclined to disagree with some of them.

Human Rights and Animal Rights are interlinked a lot but being somewhat of a religous poster myself :) I tend to separate humans from the animal race as unique beings.

Wether the issue is looked at from a Biblical or Evolutionary viewpoint it is undeniable that humans are by far the most intelligent beings on earth, with a capacity to evaluate their own instincts and feelings and make conscious decisions and learn/invent/create. However, now I am going to speak from my viewpoint, and that is a Biblical viewpoint, that as beings created with special abilities and a special image that we are separate from the animal kingdom. I also beleive however, that (please forgive me for quoting spiderman) that 'with great power, comes great responsibility', and that we have every responsibility and obligation to care for the animal kingdom, and the environment, and make conscious decisions on their behalf (hopefully for their benefit).

The links come in at the human being's responsibility to care for other living things, especially those of our own race. Within the context of human rights abuses in China, however, I think discussions on live exports to China and related animal abuses were entirely appropriate.

Pelican,
I couldn’t agree with you more. The Australian Government would have to go down as the world leaders of disaster and cruelty.

= *we certainly have no right point the finger at others and ignore the West's own record on animal and human rights.*...

If everybody shopped like you Australian Farmers would be ‘delighted’ instead of having to digging boles and beary their fruit.

The Australian Government driven by the self serving old school boys club the Nationals betrayed our Aussie farmers by flooding the country with cheap sub standard imports and selling them out.
Foxy said
*What's wrong with supporting our local industries?
And people - why send so much overseas, at our own
Expense?* Here, here!

Fractelle
*But food is a very good place to make an impression without completely deserting the Chinese worker.* YES We MUST provide our own food Fractelle- That’s number ONE

Indeed Gibo
What 'will' become of the Australian outback because farmers have been the back bone of this country from the beginning?

We need to encourage Kevin Rudd to use his mandarin skills to invite China to share farm with Australian farmers instead of reaping our country of its raw material only to provide employment for people in China.

United we survive- dived we will be taken over- if not die of health problems from sub standard foods.

If Kevin has promised more immigrants =

Then produce and manufacture HERE and train some of these people proper health standards animal welfare.

Its fasinating to watch Rudd rave about being serious on global warming while we pump minerals by the ton to China.



We have our own aboriginal and regional area people suffering because Governments have supported flogging off raw materials and destroying our own factories.

Time to rebuilt the bush and help the aboriginal people to become productive and work together with us and china HERE.



Time to look after Aussie jobs Aussie people and if china want involvement to manufactor here on a 50 infutructure basis - great.
Thats called working together and shareing the profits while building strong friendships.

Behold, the return of "Alf Garnett" in drag even though I socialise with Chinese people on a weekly basis. My very good neighbour is a Chinese scientist who shares her house with six other Chinese.

My son has visited China eleven times this year and my closest friend is Chinese/Portugese and we all continue to discuss (and criticise) the catastrophic issues on defective products out of China, which are capable of killing people – either in the short or long term.

I am reasonably au fait with the health and environmental ramifications of these chemicals where exceeding guidelines for the use of these toxins, is totally unacceptable.

China continues to compete on price, not on quality or safety or the integrity of the supply chain.

In August, US Mattel toy company announced that its Fisher-Price division was recalling nearly 1 million toys — 83 products — that were finished with lead paint. All were made in China. Prior to that announcement, 24 types of toys had been recalled in the United States in 2007, and all were manufactured in China.

In June alone, 68,000 folding chairs, 2,300 toy barbecue grills, 1.2 million space heaters, 5,300 earrings, 19,000 children's necklaces, and 1.5 million Thomas the Tank Engine toys were recalled.

In Europe this year, thousands of people who suffered severe allergic reactions after sitting on their "made in China" sofas were victims of a toxic gas emitted by an anti-mould agent. Hospitals across northern Europe have treated thousands of patients with symptoms which appeared to range from skin cancer and chemical burns to severe eczema.

More than 1,500 victims — including the relatives of two people who allegedly died as a result of their symptoms, have lodged compensation claims with British lawyers.

Professor Magnus Bruze, a dermatologist from Malmö University Hospital in Sweden, said that it could take weeks or months to become hypersensitised to the chemical which disguised the link to the furniture in many cases. He advised that once a person is sensitised, the condition remains for life and could expose them to reactions to other chemicals.

Contd.....

C/F

Recently in China, 23,000 cases of low-quality or fake food were uncovered, requiring the closure of 180 food factories - bread with 50 percent paper-pulp content, pigs fattened on force-fed wastewater, lard made from sewage yet unethical practices continue in a bid to foil quality checks.

"Companies must move away from an all-China, all-the-time sourcing policy," insists Paula Rosenblum, managing partner of Retail Systems Research in the US. "Continual and increasing dependence on China as the sole source for manufacturing is a mistake waiting to happen," she said.

Pietra Rivoli, a professor at the McDonough School of Business at Georgetown University said expecting the government of China to solve manufacturing quality issues for importers is quixotic, she says. "There are few, if any, safety nets."

‘While the Chinese government has promised stricter enforcement of regulations, stepped-up inspections, and more-punitive actions against makers of substandard goods, it also has intimated that the debacle surrounding product quality was exaggerated by the foreign media. "The country's usual response to a scandal is to find a scapegoat," Rivoli says, pointing to the execution of the head of China's food and drug administration, Zheng Xiaoyu, convicted of accepting bribes linked to substandard drugs.’

”BTW calling people barbarians and bigots does not win them over either.” Let’s not muddy the waters here Fractelle. At no time have I called the Chinese “bigots.” The bigots happen to be on OLO – they call themselves "Australians." Who would want to "win them over?" They either directly feast off the misery of animals they export to the barbarians or are sycophants to that industry. They are indeed bigots.

My description of the Chinese as “barbarians” (those Chinese who commit dehumanised, despicable acts of torture on defenceless humans and animals) is correct.

How would you describe the Chinese methods of torture on humans? How would you describe the Chinese perpetrator who specialises in cutting the top from a conscious monkey's skull for his customers to eat the pulsating brain? Are you suggesting I lack diplomacy?

Diplomacy by the West is the precise reason why these atrocities continue.

http://www.humanrightstorch.org/news/guide-to-olympic-village-labor-camps/

What will become of the Australian farmer PALE?

He's going to know drought and famine and a great fuel shortage.

People are going to starve "out there" because the governments failed the people.

Thats also shown in
http://whatwillbecomeofaustraliajackburrell.blogspot.com/

They are failing the people right now.
Only prayer is going to save this country.

Gibo
Deary me pls read Dickies post again + some of the others.

Prayer Huh, thats whats wrong with you relgious gooses( No disrespect to the animals.)

If your lot got off their backsides and spoke out about this dreadful treatment of our animals AND tne conditions they are kept in before slaughter the world would be a better and safter place= AND we wouldnt (be eating products produced from China Poo!.

Nor would our Australian children face a future of being forced to eat products produced in the most dreaful unhealthy ways that we would never allow.

If only you guys would come off your higher moral grounds( You think) and got your hands a bit dirty doing some real work people in Australia would be FINE.

Dont you get it yet. ITS BECAUSE YOU HAVE REFUSED TO STAND UP AGAINT BARBARIC Cruelty to animals we have diseases.

As the book says you reap what you sew. Your lot have turned their backs on Gods Creatures so now you will.=

A Die because you cared so little about common deceny our food products were shipped off shore.

B Die from the diseases that are spread because you cared so little about the suffering animals in the first place.

I`ll pray all right.

Pray that some of your lot wake up before its too late.

God helps those who help themselves. Stop waiting for him to pop back to earth to clean up YOUR discusting lack of action.

That can only happen IF people like you wake up and see that Animal Welfare and the jobs the industry represents ARE connected with our HEATH WEALTH and survival.
Oh and another thing.

Gibo , let me ask you this. Do you know where bird flue comes from? (Speaking of China
* Where do you THINK this milk problem in China started from in the first place? Australia of course!

While you were so busy praying with your heads up your bums we were trying to get the Churches assistance to STOP live cattle being sent to CHINA in the first place.

dickie: << I socialise with Chinese people on a weekly basis. My very good neighbour is a Chinese scientist who shares her house with six other Chinese. >

I bet you wouldn't say anything as blatantly racist and offensive as this to her, would you?

<< This ancient "civilisation" remains a country of barbarians - a depraved race indeed >>

It's reminiscent of PALE&IF's nonsense claim that Islam has taken over Australia's shopping centres because her local mall's takeaways sell halal food, and then attacking other Islamophobes whose xenophobia isn't a great deal more extreme than hers.

On topic, I think Pericles and Romany have as usual made the most sensible comments here. Yes, the lot of Chinese workers is unenviable compared to most Western societies, but they've come a long way very quickly as the Chinese economy has strengthened. In time, I imagine that their industrial conditions will be on par with ours.

Undoubtedly, the same goes for their animals. I agree that external criticism might be useful, but the kind of outright racism expressed in dickie's comments is ultimately counterproductive. How can you hope to influence Chinese society by describing them all as "barbarians" and a "depraved race".

AH the red herring of that China thread again, lets ignore it so very much posted here is not worth reading.
Spain has bull fighting are they barbarians?
Asians eat Monkey brains from live animals are they too less than us?
Some cultures nail a duck or goose the the floor and force feed then to get that special flavor.
Yes not our way, yes even bad but can we judge others while not excepting they find some of our practices barbaric?
I am almost sure the thread was meant to be a lot more than animal welfare.
But that subject has been done to death in OLO and a thread devoted to it has stalled after 4 posts.
So we see yet another thread condemned to be hijacked and diverted by radicals who do no good for true animal welfare.
Again and again we see in posts the view if we do not think like some we are to be called names.
Some good informed posts have appeared in this thread quite frankly I do not see anything of value from animal rights posters here.

*Spain has bull fighting are they barbarians?*
Belly the act itfelf it YES. Sticking spears into Animals to terrify them and make them outraged by fear and pain IS!

My God your not going to tell us you think bull fighting in Spain is OK Are You?
Judging by your next comments I guess you ARE>

*Asians eat Monkey brains from live animals are they too less than us?*

*Some cultures nail a duck or goose the the floor and force feed then to get that special flavor.*

Yeh thats right belly Dickie was telling you about force feeding.

The only thing thats good about that is that YOUR eating it.

CJ Morgan Dickies post isnt racist and she made a point of saying many Chinese are fighting for both human AND Animal Rights. You see normal people cant see any difference.

*It's reminiscent of PALE&IF's nonsense claim that Islam has taken over Australia's shopping centres*

Morgan you really SHOULD consider posting under the name of Moron.

I dont know HOW MANY TIMES I must tell you pales happy! to covert all live exports back into Australia by reopening abattirs working WITH MUSLIM PEOPLE.

Just so long as the MOU of Animal Welfare is abided by then I am as happy as Chips.

I have pointed out to the bible bashes that Halal meat in Australia will overtake our bolt method.

Mohamed was a smart bussiness man to make each animal require blessing( WHICH S A STEADY FLOW OF INCOME BACK INTO THAT PARTICULAR ORGANISTATION-) unlike our Churches.

As far as I am concerned if the Muslims are the only ones prepaired to slaughter in Australia and export to the world- God bless them.

If Muslims are the only ones wanting to create employment God bless them again.

Also if they are the ony ones producing healthy disease free products for Australian familes Praise Allah.

Only a fOOL would rely on another country to feed itself

Pale

I agree with you - Australia has really betrayed its agricultural sector. We go on about national security issues yet the greatest threat is through the food chain or losing control of our food chain and the impact on the environment of importing food. It could be potentially devasting to import a disease or bug into the country with irreversible effects not to mention the notion of being dependent on an overseas nation for the supply of food.

This is happening in Africa where GMO crops are replacing local native produce and being shipped offshore while the locals, who were once self-subsistent, now rely on imported products which they can ill afford.

Certainly we could process HALAL meat here and ship it overseas to those countries who cannot supply their own meat. I would rather see all nations produce their own food and perhaps import prodcuts only where the environment cannot sustain local production.

Or go without. When I moved from the tropics to the south I did not taste a mango again until many years later. From the enjoyment of childhood gorging on freshly picked mangoes free from the tree to a supermarket version twice as old and twice the price. I survived. :)

It is interesting that some people believe to care about animals is to forgo the care of humans. You can care about both. For the religious amongst us, I don't think Jesus if he existed would have approved of blatant cruelty towards animals or to be the cause of pain.

To say the least of Human Rights,is a joke for some businesses in China.The theatre,and dance groups are a few whom suffer the hardship
s of long hours,long weeks,long days.These groups will work up to 20
hours in one day,and do this with a few shorter days in between.The
Government associated employers whom sponsor the dance groups,are the
worst.as they require long hours of travel,and long days of work time
which at times are spent doing nothing at all.In some areas its smart
to say you are working,even if you are just sitting around until the
showa begin.Then they expect their workers to still work another 8 h
ours,after they have spent all day,practically doing nothing,but havi
ng to be on the work site anyway,or they do not receive pay.This is a
jungle which the workers are subjected to.Sometimes they are at a dan
ce location all day,the performance does not begin until 8 p.m.,and
then at times,told to go home,and return the next day at 8 a.m. again
to wait the whole day.this is only one small actual work day.You woul
d not believe all the variances involved and how each traveling work
day,is so different from the next.Many times they tell you,you are l
eaving on the 19th,at 10 a.m. and its cancelled.Other times they say
you will leave at a certain time and day,but do not know the time
or the day.They say they will call you.The schedules always change,
in one form or another.They can be called in to work at 10 p.m., if
they want you,without notice. The private companies have little rega
rd for exact information,and coordinating days and times,and places.

The live export cabal has returned, setting upon their scapegoats by casting the original ad hominems then corruptong the thread by tossing in a few red herrings.

Another unprovoked and spiteful dig at PALE Morgan? Ah yes….that’s right, chilled and frozen meat exports from Australia would also place a big dent in your ill-gotten gains.

“…. but they've come a long way very quickly as the Chinese economy has strengthened. In time, I imagine that their industrial conditions will be on par with ours.” (CJ Morgan)

Of course, silly me, it’s the economy stoopid! Well let’s not debate the ethics or morality of such an economy – human rights is a mere peccadillo for this gentleman. And animal welfare – CENSORED!

Effective criticisms would see Morgan’s profit margins drastically reduced so why should he allude to the issue of a surging increase in human rights violations or dangerous and corrupt business practice?

http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/regions/asia-pacific/china

“ I am almost sure the thread was meant to be a lot more than animal welfare.”

True! Do you have trouble with comprehension Alan Bell? Four links offered in two posts? Hardly a take-over when there are some 38 posts here but of course this strategy of yours is regular and tiresome as you trail after Morgan lugging his heavy load of umitigated swill and besides, animal cruelty is indeed profitable so you’re here to protect your interests, however, you are a traitor to your union.

http://www.historycooperative.org/proceedings/asslh/jerrard.html

Animal issues ARE relevant to this thread. Australia’s live exports are returned as canned meats for humans and pets and let’s not forget the milk. Some 53,000 babies ill with some 12,000 now suffering kidney disease. All “Made in China” milk products have been removed from Australian shelves.

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE48P1C720080926

http://www.aplus-flint-river-ranch.com/define-menufoods-petfoodrecall.php

Unless you have something sensible to say Alan Bell, cease attacking people concerned with the welfare of commercial animals! Your improper stance of refusing respect to the lives and needs of these animals is well known on OLO so off you scuttle to your subterranean cavern now......you can use Morgan’s hanky!

Yes Dickie my name is ALAN BELL! do you want to know my address?
Both you and PALEIF have used insults yet again in this thread, calling one poster a moron.
Are only men to display good manners?
I in no way support cruelty to animals ever, by any one.
Bizarrely coming from union background I have never seen more lies and half truths, more pure emotion used in the name of a cause than the animal rights movement in OLO not all Nicky and PF at least do not rant.
I have read every one of your posts too Dickie, once they displayed control and understanding, not now.
I actually give to some animal rights movement when I get the chance.
Have you seen my often quoted belief that some unions do more harm than good?
I truly honestly without any spite am convinced Dickie you and PALEIF fit that group, doing more harm than good for your cause.
Please other posters do not mistake this for anti female, it is just the idea that shouting stamping ones feet and changing the subject is something some, not all women use for debate.
China is improving every day, its people are no less or no more than us.
And to talk of Bible bashers in the same post as talking to God is , well why bother.

Belly: << I truly honestly without any spite am convinced Dickie you and PALEIF fit that group, doing more harm than good for your cause. >>

Quite so, Belly. Those last sprays from them are classics of their deranged approach to debate. I gave up long ago trying to engage in rational discussion with them, but I do reserve the right to point out their more egregious excesses - such as dickie's blatantly racist comment about "barbarians" and a "depraved race".

Anyway, I'm off bush for the week, so I'll leave you to it.

Hi there SOS

Sorry I missed your post. Yes the trip went well – thank you.
Many trees are disappearing so it’s for the wildlife.

I hear you about my religious comments.

Hey Gibo, I didn’t mean that ‘personally’. Your one of the few Christian posters that I do read ‘all’ of their comments.

It’s just that having written to over three thousand Church leaders plus personally flying with a RSPCA CEO to meet with Senator Fielding one can’t help but to be disgusted.

God blessed us however on that day by sending alone a REAL MAN OF GOD to attend the meeting at Steve Fielding office to discuss cattle going to can for milk taking Australian jobs and health concerns.
This intelligent gentleman was also a Minister with the Catholic Church whom has lived in ME and seen first hand the brutality on ships and conditions including slaughters.

Yes I’ll pray all right Gibbo- Pray for Steve Fielding to end up on a live export ship and all his ‘weak friends’ to follow him.

I’ll pray our wonderful Church people who really work for God takes over from the likes of him and insular gutless heads of Churches

Later I will start a thread about Fielding.

I want the world to know the difference between Christian Leaders in Australia and Muslim Leaders in Australia when it comes to healthy foods and cruelty to animals.
“It’s a real eye opener”.

The lady in Germany who supplied much of the footage btw was a Minister and left the Church because they refused to include animals.

There ‘are’ more Churches doing blessings of him animals and Mark Pearson who is ~~`fantastic~~! Is working with Church people also.

Hope Faith and love and the greatest of all is HOPE

Here’s hoping to remove Steve Fielding by educating the public.

Dickie works for God as does Nicky- and for memory, I don’t think they consider themselves as believers. ~`` interesting isn’t it. `~`

As they say God works in mysterious way.

I consider it perfectly appropriate, in a discussion on the abuse of human rights in China, to also raise the equally disturbing issue of the abuse of animal rights in that same country.

I agree, labelling the Chinese as 'barbarians' isn't conducive to establishing the dialogue needed to help effect change, but the heinous acts of animal cruelty depicted in the links Dickie provided in her first post are certainly barbaric. I for one appreciate her efforts in informing us as she has.

No worries PALE.
This thread stirred up a bit of heat amongst the writers.

To my shame I dont often write on animal welfare...though I do at times when I remember a couple of farms I worked on in the 1980's in QLD and how the farmers treated their farm friends, dogs in particular.
Not wanting to feed pups... or three legged dogs... they mostly done them in.

Jobe
interesting comment.



Although GOOD union men have spoken out;


We were involved with a film about six months ago with Malaysia at our farm stay.
Same hours: A vast difference to the one that was made at my riding Ranch years ago produced by USA.

The hours were- Cut off at 4pm daily despite costs.



Bronwyn,
Don’t worry about old CJ. He made obvious he had an interest in the trade by abusing us and posting crude comments. Now I don’t mind debating ‘anybody but he will never do that.

Belly- ``` Well he just doesn’t like our poetry :)

At least old Yabbs used to try to debate the trade even if it was with the same old pokies
Btw where is Yabbs? Looks like he’s headed for the hills, or maybe gone to greener pasture.

Dickie going to let loose from time to time and who can blame her. I am like that with Church Leaders.
We see things a little differently with our efforts to include Animal Welfare groups in within industry.

To us Dickie running an abattoirs or poultry farms would be heaven sent.

That would of course insult her but honestly it’s never been meant that way.

We too appreciate her efforts in informing us as she has.
`We just hope she knows it. `* Your comments haven’t done unnoticed either. *

Gibo
For you=:)

Muldoon lived alone in the Irish countryside with only a pet dog for company.
One day the dog died, and Muldoon went to the parish priest and asked,
"Father, my dog is dead. Could ya' be saying' a mass for the poor creature?"
Father Patrick replied, "I'm afraid not; we cannot have services for an animal in the church. But there are some Baptists down the lane, and there's no tellin' what they believe. Maybe they'll do something for the creature."
Muldoon said, "I'll go right away Father. Do ya 'think ?$5,000 is enough to donate to them for the service?"
Father Patrick exclaimed, "Sweet Mary, Mother of Jesus! Why didn't ya tell me the dog was Catholic?

Thanks PALE. I love Irish jokes:)