Boaz,

Confirming Pericles coment, I found the following the link to an audio lecture by Gary Miller on the Quran and reason of revelation:

http://www.islamicinvitationcentre.com/audio/gary_miller/Reason_and_Revelation/Reason_and_Revelation.htm

There is a number of audo lectures in simple English explaining how Muslims understand/should understand the Quran.

Peace,

Or you could of course completely ignore the issue, and pretend that you were right all along, Boaz.

>>Where have I EVER said "Muslims, when obedient to their holy book must kill all unbelievers" [? x 1000]<<

Would you like some more examples? It only took five minutes to track down the last two, so it wouldn't be too much bother.

What really puzzles me though, is that you have the perfect opportunity to make your position crystal clear, yet you refuse.

You'd feel so much better afterwards, once you had clarified your position.

"I, Boaz, do not attribute scripturally-based motives to all Muslims, and will in future refrain from suggesting that Muslims are required to kill non-Muslims."

Of course, if you disagree with the way I have phrased it, by all means change it. Either way, we'll all be unable to misinterpret you in the future - you can simply point to your repudiation and say, "that's what I meant.There's not a whack-a-mozzie bone in my body".

Think you can do that?

Dear Pericles :) you probably don't realize why I break out in a smile when you think you have me.

The simple truth is.. you just want to have it that way so bad you resort to very shallow argumentation.

Your 2 examples are hopeless.

In the first one... the key word is "ALL"

Then a couple more important words

"considered a threat"

"Any or all"

But the bit that seems to have been totally lost on you, is this.

MOHAMMAD DID it..... His companions FOLLOWED his example..and even without resorting to speculative commentary on the passages cited, it is like the proverbial large trout from MIRC which slaps your brain and tries.. (oh how it tries) to slap some connection between 'Mohammad' and his teachings and his followers into that very stubborn brain of yours.

You saw it all..but did not perceive anything.

The Quran does NOT "command Muslims to kill all unbelievers" and I've never said it does.
Mohammad did not "command all unbelievers to be killed" and I've never said he did.

I've said as I did in the posts you quoted. Why not actually read them?

ANY (or all) persons.. CONSIDERED a 'threat' can JUSTIFIABLY (based on Mohammads example and the Quran's teaching) be killed or murdered.

FH.. I've heard Gary Miller.. and he is another misguided former so called Christian, very strong on the 'so called'... his understanding is unbalanced, very way off and lacks legitimate connection to facts.(in my view)

FRACCY :) *wave* mate.. how in this wide world can you know how I interact with people on a personal level from 'here'? There are only 2 people who know that.. FH is one, and Col Rouge is the other.

FORUM "one thing-issues"
REAL LIFE "another thing-people"

Discussing issues has a view to forming policy. We don't all like those we live under.. but I hardly think we attribute HATE to those who form them do we?

Ok..Pericles, you are such a repetitive 'scoundrel' at times, but just to make you happy and enable you to enjoy that cuppa when you get home.

POSITION STATEMENT.

MUSLIMS and UNBELIEVERS.

1/ The Quran contains many commands and statements pertaining to violence against various categories of unbelievers.

2/ The choice about whether to act on those verses will normally reside in the mind of the Caliph, the head of the Muslim Umma. (should there ever be one) but this is an opinion not shared by all Muslims. Some regard such commands/permissions to be valid for all Muslims everywhere.

3/ Muslims are NOT commanded to universally kill ALL non believers for ALL time in the Quran. (though in some circumstances they may feel justified in doing so)

Time limits applied (warning) 9:2-5 Notice that Mohammad BROKE existing treaties (9:1) and declared 'no obligation'.

4/ The categories of unbeliever the Quran authorizes the fighting against and possibly killing of are:

-Those who invade Muslim lands. (many references this is not disputed by an Muslim)

-Those who do not believe in Allah or the last day (9:29)

-Those who have been warned to embrace Islam. (surah 5 surah 9) (Mohammad's letters to Emperors, various Quranic references)

SUMMARY
So..in summary it is clear that the statement "All Muslims are commanded to kill all unbelievers" is quite false.

(I've not argued that it is true. if you look CLOSEly at what I write:)

You might like to refer to this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_war_in_Islam

but if you quote it, bear in mind I will utterly tear it to fine shreds from the Hadith itself. Then you will see how absolutely contradictory and 'Chameleon' like is Islam.

You see.. if it says 'based on' something.. we can legitimately look at that 'something' for any hint of divergence.

EXAMPLE 'Abu Bakar's 10 rules of war' include 'cannot mutliate dead bodies' but Mohammad himself mutilated LIVING bodies.. see? 'Chameleon'.

Specifics, please Boaz.

Did you or did you not write:

>>Thus, based on this thinking, ANY nation or person which is considered 'a threat' by the Muslim community can jusifiably be attacked or murdered. (Theo Van Gogh is a modern Example)<<

And now you tell me:

>>..in summary it is clear that the statement "All Muslims are commanded to kill all unbelievers" is quite false.(I've not argued that it is true. if you look CLOSEly at what I write:)<<

On the contrary, Boaz, this is exactly what you do write. Note particularly that you used the term "Muslim community", which directly contradicts your pious asssertions that your target is Islam, not Muslims.

Your attempt to obfuscate does you no credit I'm afraid, nor does it cut any ice. You are an inveterate and persistent rabble-rouser, and there's the end of it. The fact that you choose to believe otherwise is an exercise in self-deception that no amount of fuzzy quotations can disguise.

But if this partial, heavily qualified position statement of yours indicates the beginnings of a rehabilitation into the ranks of the rational and fair-minded, then my attempts to pin down your fear-and-loathing tactics have not been in vain.

Have a great day.

Boaz,

“FH.. I've heard Gary Miller and he is a misguided Christian”

Ok, so anyone believing that Islam is a good faith to follow is misguided.

So here is a simple question: Suppose I am not a Muslim and I hear about the founder of Islam from Muslims and non Muslims like the link below which includes famous historians, authors and philosophers:
http://www.islamicinvitationcentre.com/articles/Introduction/muhammad/NonMuslims_Say.htm.

Please tell me why should I believe you and not the above (please read quotes from Rev. Bosword Smith from the church of London, Bernard Shaw, Ghandi, etc.)?

Please don’t use the irrational argument that you keep using : ‘believe me cause I said so and others believe what I said so it must be true’.

Now over to you Boaz,

Peace,