I'm a little disappointed that you don't have the energy to introduce anything new to the discussion, Boaz. I was looking forward to a good chuckle.

Instead, you simply retreat behind the same old pointless verbiage - "Mohammad as 'example' in the whole of Surah 9"... "according to the highly venerated and respected Islamic scholar and historian Ibn Kathir on 9:5"... "surah 9 is about imposing Islam by force. (9.5 at least)".

...followed by the inevitable "Do some reading" instruction, as if I am suddenly going to start playing your game of hide-and-seek with reality.

There is only one point at issue here, Boaz, and it has nothing to do with what anyone else says.

It is about what you say. Here. Today. On this Forum.

Let's take (yet) another look.

>>Where have I EVER said "Muslims, when obedient to their holy book must kill all unbelievers" [? x 1000]<<

Here:

>>The justification for the attack however, was said to be specifically Surah 9:29 as quoted by Al Mughira in the hadith I mentioned. Thus, based on this thinking, ANY nation or person which is considered 'a threat' by the Muslim community can jusifiably be attacked or murdered. (Theo Van Gogh is a modern Example)<<

Which condenses neatly into "any nation or person can justifiably be murdered".

Convicted on the evidence of your own words.

Not those of al Mughira, whoever he or she may be.

Or Ibn Kathir, or Abu Bakr As-Siddiq, or Uncle Tom Cobbley.

It appears to be your life's work, to see the world in terms of "us and them", and to generate as much hatred for "them" as you can, on every possible occasion.

You have done so too many times, on this forum alone, to escape the charge.

The remedy is in your own hands. Stop rabble-rousing. Stop stirring up fear and loathing.

A good start would be for you to admit that you do not know everything, and that sometimes, others may actually be right.

I understand this might be difficult for you, but please try to get your head around the concept.

Mohammad was sincere but deluded to begin with. He thought that the Judeo-Christian Scriptures had foretold about him being a prophet.

“And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, foretold then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers. (Surah 10:94)

When told that the Scriptures did not support his claim, Mohammad became angry and accused the Christians and Jews of corrupting the Scriptures.

“O People of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you, expounding unto you much of that which ye used to hide in the Scripture, and forgiving much. now hath come unto you light from Allah and plain Scripture”(5:15)

Mohammad decreed that Christians and Jews are enemies and, their hatred by all true Muslims is enshrined in the Koran.

“Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrong-doers.” (5:51)

Soon many Jews, and non-Muslims were killed and by Mohammad and his fellow cultists.
‘The great “holy” Ali, the son-in-law of Muhammad and the fourth rightly guided Caliph of Islam, found a Muslim called Mustawrid al-Ijili who had converted to Christianity and taken to wearing cross around his neck. Leaving Islam for another religion, a grievous sin in Islam, Ali quizzed him twice on his having become a Christian and twice the man replied that he had. Ali then exclaimed ‘Allah hu Akbar’ to which Mustawrid replied ‘The Messiah (al-Masih) is greatest.’ Then Ali held him by the fold of his dress and threw him down on his face, and said, ‘O servants of God, trample upon [him]’, and the people trampled upon him until he died.’[The Pillars of Islam Vol. 2]

Islam inspires Muslims to kill Buddhists, Christians in Thailand, Philippines and Indonesia. Indonesia executed 3 Christians for defending their village against Muslims but is reluctant to execute the 3 Muslims for killing over 200

Boaz,

“I don't claim to be 'TOLERANT AND LOVING' when it comes to falsehood”
Although I don’t see things in true or false format, you are as false to a bhuddist or an atheist. Yet I don’t see a Muslim, a Buddhist or an atheist jumping on your belief system. I only see you and your brethren doing that. Seeing you as an example, I now understand why Bhuddism is the fastest growing religion in Australia (79% increase in the last decade according to the ABS).

“I claim to be tolerant of those who might hold such beliefs in the hope and prayer that they will see the truth and light and follow it”
Above statement would read to me that you are only loving and tolerant to those who follow your belief or can potentially follow your belief. Please clarify.

Peace,

FH with his blinkers on :) said:

"Yet I don’t see a Muslim, a Buddhist or an atheist jumping on your belief system"

Now.. mate..that's as close as it comes to "assault with intent to do serious injury" :) I mean.. again..I almost choked reading that.

You have a short memory... grrr.. Bronwyn, Alchemist, Gym Fish Pericles, CJ Morgan Yabby, Spikey and the list goes on and on and on, all of whom bring intense criticism of our beliefs to this forum.
Not to mention Faustino who is buddhist. David F who is Jewish.

Contrary also to your 'wild assertion' that all my posts are anti Islam... please visit the "Lords Prayer and Parliament" thread.

"Open thine eyes" :)

By the way, "this" thread was begun by someone else, and I think the point has been established that Ramadan is not something which would prevent a Muslim group from fighting, based on Mohammad's example.

Irfy says "In the name of who's Islam"
Mohammad (by example) says "In the name of MY Islam, because I pillaged a caravan during ramadan and engaged in battle (Badr) during that month also"

So.. limiting our discussion to the topic.. it is clear that Irfy and maybe you, have a different view of Islam than your founder.

Of course..what would we know :) ummm.. ah..only that history is history.

It is clear, Boaz, that you firmly believe that the best way to maintain a falsehood is to keep repeating it, however many times it is contested and refuted.

>>Bronwyn, Alchemist, Gym Fish Pericles, CJ Morgan Yabby, Spikey and the list goes on and on and on, all of whom bring intense criticism of our beliefs to this forum.<<

I will only speak for myself, of course. But since I am on the list, I cannot let that statement stand.

I do not bring intense criticism of your beliefs to this forum.

I have said on occasions too many to count that I fully respect your right to hold your beliefs, however I might feel about them myself.

What I do object to, and will continue to object to so long as you continue to do so, is your incessant denigration of religions other than your own, as if you have some kind of exclusive access to the truth.

You don't.

Your opinions are your own, and are respected for what they are.

But when you hare off into theological intricacies that mean nothing to anyone but yourself, or when you make claims for the "rightness' of your religious views that are based on nothing but your faith, you should expect to be questioned.

None of which constitutes an attack on your religion, or your right to hold the views that you do.

If only, if only, if only... you gave others the same courtesy.

Luckily, it reflects only on you personally, and not on the religion you profess, that you don't.

Boaz,

“Mohamed engaged in battle (Badr) during Ramadan”

Historical facts about the Battle of Badr:

- Early followers of Islam (mainly slaves, elderly and women) were persecuted and tortured by their masters to abandon Islam. Total people of 313 Muslims at the time.
- Their opponent from different Arab tribes seiged them at Badr with over a 1000 armed horsemen (outnumbered 4:1 not to mention Muslims were on foot).
- Choices were: defend their lives, being killed or torture to convert away from Islam. They chose to fight back and they won.

“Bronwyn, Alchemist, Gym Fish Pericles, CJ Morgan Yabby, Spikey and the list goes on and on and on, all of whom bring intense criticism of our beliefs to this forum”

Actually all above posters criticised your behavior as alien to Australian culture of respecting ech other beliefs. Nobody attacked or scrutinised your faith as you claimed. They stood up as good Aussie samaritans and they never initiated aggression or been disrespectul of your opinions.

Back to my question: only you and your brethren are jumping on everyone else, do you still want anybody to believe you are tolerant and loving?

Will still buy you a coffee and lunch when I am in Melbourne next time, as you know I belong to a non tolerant faith : -)

Peace,