Romany:"have to confess to a bit of a splutter into my coffee and a quiet giggle about that as well."

In that case, you'll have no trouble sharing the joke. Show me where I have been generally dismissive of women or have made general remarks denigrating women on the basis of their gender. Take your time...

Me (two days ago):"This discussion, like many other similar ones, has been characterised by a wilful disregard for the actual position offered by the men here in favour of an emotive outpouring designed to do no more than cloud the issue, along with a collective hen-pecking from the women."

I note that the collective hen-pecking continues, while little of substance is emanating from those who would have the debate confined to a topic of their choosing (that includes you, Romany). Meanwhile, anyone who disagrees with the contention that violence against women is qualitatively different to violence against men is labelled "misogynist". That's not merely weak, it's dishonest and intellectually lazy.

Romany, JW and CJ - lmao. Thanks for adding your observations.

Antiseptic, I went to your list of posts and looked at a couple with the intent of bringing back examples but they are just too numerous; the posts would be too long and it seemed on the whole a pointless exercise. The posts constantly infer that women are the enemy - not to be trusted; unstable; hysterical (one of your favourites).

I'm sorry, but your posts ARE sad.

R0bert, I'm sorry that you perceive that as a slur. However, calling all violence the same places the experience of women back into the general conglomeration of offences. It then detracts from the peculiarities of their situation. It hides their powerlessness and terror and the special care that needs to be taken to extract them safely (if possible) from their situation. Nor does it do anything to help male victims of violence.

I have not tried to define your experience; I wouldn't presume to do that. I accept what you say of it without reservation. Your experiences are no less valid (from my point of view) than that of women and people in the other sub-groups.

What I point out is that other sub-groups describe their experiences and in doing that differences, similarities and special needs that may warrant specific remedies become apparent. The sites that you see as having credibility express a need to find "symmetry" (as M. Flood says) - I don't see any purpose or advantage in that for male victims; and therefore it seems to me to be an exercise in minimizing womens experience.

I am urging you (men generaly) to simply compile your own stories.

Antiseptic,

If DV experienced by women and by men is qualitatively the same, as you insist, you should be able to refer to a few cases where women have pursued men and killed or tried to kill both the father and children; or few cases where women have killed themselves and the children (like gassed in a car or shot). Maybe you have a couple where the father has had acid thrown or a shot gun blast to the face or where the man has been physically prevented from leaving the house and in terror of serious harm if he defied his missus.

I'm sorry to be so blunt, but unless you can come up with more than one or two cases of those sorts of experiences for male victims, then there are qualitative differences.

Male victims no doubt have some bad experiences; the strategies used to terrorize them may usually be quite different. I'm interested to know what those experiences and strategies. They deserve to be expressed and recognized in their own right.

Antiseptic claims: "I note that the collective hen-pecking continues, while little of substance is emanating from those who would have the debate confined to a topic of their choosing (that includes you, Romany). Meanwhile, anyone who disagrees with the contention that violence against women is qualitatively different to violence against men is labelled "misogynist". That's not merely weak, it's dishonest and intellectually lazy."

No, Antiseptic. If you bothered to seriously consider the many posts made by female (and male) posters you would understand that there is a difference between violence in the home and that in, say, a pub brawl. Nor has anyone labelled you as misogynistic. However YOU HAVE labelled every single experience, fact and point of view offered by all the female contributors as:

"dishonest and intellectually lazy".

When challenged on this 'absolute statement' by CJ, you claim that you are referring to a particular "subset" of women.

Not once have the views of men been willfully disregarded. We are, however, FREE to disagree with you, as I am now. This is neither "lazy" nor "clouding the issue". But it is disagreeing, and I believe that is where you have difficulties in accepting that the female experience is as valid as the male experience of violence, that violence within the home is different to that encountered outside the home.

Well, this "subset' of women have either experienced domestic violence first hand and/or are objecting to it. A very large "subset" indeed. All you are doing is "disregarding" everything any woman has to say, as Pynchme said this is just "sad" and I think she is being very polite.

R0bert, have you accessed the following helpline?

Domestic and family violence service Queensland
Dvconnect mensline –
1800 600 636
Phone line for men. 9am - midnight, 7 day

Pynchme:"The posts constantly infer that women are the enemy - not to be trusted; unstable; hysterical (one of your favourites)."

No, your inference is your own and I mean to imply none of the things you claim to infer. It's sad that you cannot engage on the content of my posts, but must rely on your own inference to try to discredit me. It's possibly revealing of your own view of your gender that you inferred that particular set of descriptors.

Surely, if the examples are so numerous, you could have found one example of what I actually said that supports your own rather sad inferences?

You could ask Col Rouge about being called "hysterical", if you like. I do believe I've applied the term to his posts in the main. Is he a woman too?

Pynchme:"If DV experienced by women and by men is qualitatively the same, as you insist"

The topic is the disparate treatment of the issue of violence on the basis of gender. You and some others have tried to limit that to a discussion of DV. I have chosen not to allow you to control me by limiting in that way and have stuck to the original subject.

Pynchme:"They deserve to be expressed and recognized in their own right."

Why? Why genderise at all? Why not a simple "violence is bad"?

Fractelle:"However YOU HAVE labelled every single experience, fact and point of view offered by all the female contributors as:

"dishonest and intellectually lazy". "

What a lot of rot. Go back and read what I wrote and also have a look at the number of posts calling me "misogynist" for trying to keep the diswcussion on track.

As for experiences, all I've said is that there is a double standard applied, so that men's experience is belittled as "misogynist", while that of women is taken as incontrovertible proof of whatever is under discussion at the time. Frankly, all this thread is doing is showing how correct I am on both points.

Fractelle, thanks. This is far better than anything I could find at the time but I don't think it's in the right place yet.

I just had a look at their website and it highlights a problems I mentioned earlier in that those services which are around are strongly orientated around male violence. This one acknowledges that they will help men who have been the victims of DV but the messages seem to go the other way. If I was having problems with a violent partner I'd be very nervous about confiding in a service so clearly focussed around male violence against females.

http://www.dvconnect.org/mensline/default.asp

"Importantly Mensline offers specialist assistance for men who are seeking strategies to address their own use of violence and other destructive patterns in their personal lives and relationships, as well as those who may be (or have been) victims of violence themselves. "

"This may manifest in further expressions of violence towards their families, the wider community or themselves."

"assist men to gain the support needed to make positive choices towards getting their lives back in order and to stop using violence in their realtionships."

"Its aim is the prevention of male family violence including that in same sex or transgender couples."

"To provide counselling support, information, referral and education services to men who have inflicted or at risk of inflicting violence on family members and to family members exposed to male family violence or the risk of male family violence."

"Family Violence is largely about the misuse of power and control in the context of male dominance. All forms of violence are unacceptable and must be challenged at all times. Men are responsible for their use of violence. "

Violent men do need help but a service which so clearly has it's emphasis on male violence is a very risky proposition for a male victim already struggling with the idea that it's always his fault.

I'll have a think about what they are doing and see if I can think of ways to unwind the messages and still meet both needs.

R0bert