What do I want.

A time when a male with an abusive spouse can seek help from police or others with a reasonable degree of confidence that his situation won't be dismissed or mocked because of his gender.

A time when a male seeking the use of services will know that they are available to him and can be confident of not getting someone at the other end so immersed in the paradime that it's never her fault that he might actually get some help.

A time when social worrkers and counsellors won't tell him, she is smaller and unlikiely to cause harm.

A time when we talk about DV we know what we are talking about. The last few posts have been valuable but they don't explain why the government funded add I saw yesterday on a bus about monitoring emails was gender specific. Most of the campaigns spend a lot of effort on the lower level stuff which women are just as capable of.

A time when a male who does walk can have some confidence that he won't loose almost everything due to maternal bias and assumptions about protecting women and children. - This one may have changed a bit recently, I'm trying to make sense of that.

A time when it's never his fault.

A time when at least some of the anti-spousal violence message tells women not to hit.

I don't think any of us here are excusing those who hit back with far greater force, rather saying that it does happen when people are left with no other place to turn. Human beings make mistakes especially in extreme situations.

TBC

R0bert

Part 2

Campaigns don't necessarily have to be gender neutral as long as the other message is getting out there as well, in this case the other message is quite clearly and deliberatly not going out apparently because that somehow hides the violence against women. I've still not worked that one out.

From the comments about the nature of DV the apples and oranges in spousal violence can be split between the stuff that's about controlling a partner and the stuff thats a short term loss of control. The DV that those supporting a gendered anti-DV message are concerned with seems to be the extreme controlling behaviours backed by greater physical strength type. Thats not the message I get from the government campaigns which seem to be about all levels of spousal violence by men against women regardless of the context.

If DV is just the extreme controlling behavious enforced by greater physical strength then lets tell all those women who are subjected to lower level violence or occasional hits or thrown objects because a partner can't control themselves that what they are experiencing is not DV. Lets tell them that to offer them support detracts from the real victims of DV so they are on their own - thats what you are doing to men.

R0bert

Yeah, Robert, now I think we are approaching a mutual understanding here. I agree with you entirely on this level. And perhaps you can gain a little insight into where the people who fear that the issue of the "other end" violence runs the risk of being subsumed by a generalised message?

Maybe we need to make it clear that there are two types of spousal violence going on out there? Yes, we need a campaign that addresses the escalating levels of conflict within the home. Yes, we need to make it clear that an hysterical out-of-control woman is quite likely to be the instigator in such conflict. And that conflict in the home - of any kind - is impacting on our families and, thus, broader society... and so the problem escalates.

And from the mental health pov we also need to hammer this because so many of these people should, under a better health-care system, be treated and monitored. As you know by now, my field includes history and it definately seems that this phenomenon of the abusive female is both relatively(within the last 50 years) new and increasingly occurring.

I am sorry that your own troubles were not taken seriously. In no organisation I have been connected with has violence towards men not been taken seriously, nor have I, personally, ever treated a male victim differently to a female victim. But its true that some members of the police force and the male victims own workmates, and sometimes even extended family, often do not act appropriately.

But that still leaves us with the problem of how then to fight against and make people aware of, the other, more sinister and often - for a variety of reasons - more hidden violence? The kind that HAS been going on for centuries pretty much unchecked. The kind where it is unavoidable that gender plays an important role because, by its very nature, gender is at the heart of it.

R0bert - I have never seen any male who claimed to have been assaulted denied care by local organizations; nor have I done less for any man in that situation than I have for any female.

I think the disbelief you experienced might be more attributable to the same sexist attitudes and machismo that has kept violence against women hidden and denied for so long. (Sort of summarize: Women are by type hysterical and not to be believed; men don't experience pain or hurt and anyway real men control their women...)

At the same time, reflect on how women have managed to have their situation and vulnerabilities taken seriously (by many but far from all) sectors of society. They started by mutual support groups and by telling their stories. Then research. Then they advocated for each other and sought change within justice and policing institutions.

I notice that other subgroups of DV or partner violence, like lesbians, are doing the same thing - their own research; telling their own stories so that we can see what is same; what is different from DV as we currently understand it.

I suggest that victimized men do the same. Instead of trying to prove it's as much as or that the female experience is less - why not just tell your own stories. Some sameness with female victim DV will be apparent; the differences also will become clear.

As with people who experience violence in lesbian relationships, you are sure to have the sympathy and support of feminists like myself.

cont'd

Cont'd:

I don't know anything to speak of about violence between people in homosexual relationships, but sympathize with any victim of DV.

Anyway, about the link to which I referred. Unfortunately it's a library access thing by the looks of it. However here is the reference:

Paroissien, Karen and Stewart, Penny. Surviving Lesbian Abuse: Empowerment Groups for Education and Support [online]. Women Against Violence: An Australian Feminist Journal; Issue 9; Dec 2000; 33-40. Availability: <http://search.informit.com.au.ezproxy.csu.edu.au/documentSummary;dn=590869558781945;res=IELHSS> ISSN: 1327-5550. [cited 04 Oct 08].

The authors ran support groups for lesbian who had experienced DV by their partners. There were about 60 participants from 1991 to 1997.

It's interesting because it talks about the sameness of and differences to heterosexual DV and about how ideas about lesbian violence are under discussion in feminist circles. It also describes how support groups function and how they help their members with safety issues.

In part it says:

"It is not fighting between two equals or mutual abuse as some in the lesbian communities and literature would suggest (Hart, 1986; Burstow, 1992). Labelling it this way further masks the issue and excuses us from doing anything about it. It is not an isolated
incident of violence. It is an ongoing and systematic controlling of one partner by the other, thereby creating a real power imbalance in the relationship. While the woman who is being abused may try to
defend herself and stop the violence by doing what she thinks her lover wants, the violence continues. She very often thinks her partner will change, that she can assist her partner to change, and that the violence will not happen again. However nothing that she does stops the violence, eventually hope fades and only fear remains."

It's interesting reading anyway and especially as understanding develops about the difficulties encountered by people who experience violence in homosexual relationships.

Male and female homosexuals, as DV sub groups, are struggling for justice too. In the process they haven't found it necessary or desirable to minimize violence against women who live in heterosexual relationships.

Celivia, Romany, Anansi - great posts. Anansi I couldn't agree more with your post (p. 19). You put it so well.

Antispetic all that I can recommend for someone so set in their negative views about women and clear lack of knowledge about DV, is that you make a concerted effort to find out about it. Maybe somewhere, sometime, something will spark some compassion in you that can quell that hatred you nurture. Your posts are just sad.

Your remarks about emotive outpourings and hen-pecking, ignoring the ganging together and abusive posts by you and your cohorts, suggest that you're quite an old bloke. There is NO reason why emotional aspects of DV or any violence shouldn't be expressed. To dictate that it be less is to deny the humanity in the whole shebang. I'm trying to extend due respect to you in case you're an old geezer, that is - presumably you just don't know any better.

Here's an overview of policy issues, if you're interested at all in getting up to speed with the past 20 years of research and social activity:

Murray, Suellen. An Impossibly Ambitious Plan? Australian Policy and the Elimination of Domestic Violence [online]. Just Policy: A Journal of Australian Social Policy; Issue 38; Dec 2005; 27-33