PF, are you saying you have no idea of the cost differences between your preferred methods and that of the intensive farmers? That seems strange coming from one who has been saying repeatedly that intensive farmers are so inefficient they're going broke while you're making a profit. Does that mean your claims are just porky-pies in the sky?

Hi all
Antiseptic, one has to wonder if you have a distinct preference for intensive farming (and hence gross animal abuse). I cannot imagine that the price difference would be that substantial, and I think (thanks to some flag waving) the public is becoming more and more aware of animal cruelty.

I should have realized that my question to PF would require some degree of telepathy given that I would imagine that these prices would fluctuate almost daily. Sorry, PF!

As for APL's response, PF - I couldn't agree more. They couldn't have managed this worse than they have - thankfully for the animals! Do they still have that bizarre, paranoid "Animal Rights Watch" website?

As an example, three local Councils where I live have announced that they will no longer be using caged (hen) eggs in their catering, and at least one has banned circuses with exotic animals (after considerable flag waving and a "gorilla" swinging from a lamp post - it was brilliant)

Cheers
Nicky

Antiseptic - I meant no disrespect with my comment.

There are so many variables involved. At present, free range production (if thats what you refer to me as my preferred production regime) is more labour intensive, the pigs grower slower, one, because no hormones and growth promoters are use, and two, because no research money has been put into diets suitable for pigs that use a lot of energy doing what comes naturally.

I have at no time said that intensive farmers are inefficient. Despite all the research, genetics, medications etc, they are struggling to get a price they deserve for their product because they are unable to differentiate themselves.

This is my point, australian producer have an opportunity to fill an untapped market for welfare friendly, 'green' pork yet they choose to ignore it, largely because they have all this infrastructure in place and want to hang on to it at all costs.

If APL put some money into alternative methods of pig production we may see some outcomes that would reduce the costs of such methods and the price differential would not be that different I feel. (assuming we are talking a sustainable price to begin with)

Nicky:"I cannot imagine that the price difference would be that substantial"

I have a small timber milling business. We do things largely by hand, with some assistance from a forklift and crane truck. The mill I use is a Lucas, which has a small 27hp motor and is pushed through the log by hand. The best throughput I and my partner can achieve is about 10cubic meters of logs in a day. The cost per cubic meter is around $100 if we can achieve best throughput, which is fairly rare.

Down the road is a modern production mill that gets through about 10 cubic metres of logs every couple of minutes. They have several saws, including different saws for different parts of the process and they have a production line to take advantage of their machinery. Their staff number about 50. It costs them about $20 to mill a cubic meter plus the cost of servicing their debt . So, their efficiency is 5 times mine in terms of cost. What really tells the story, though, is their volume. They produce around 1000 times as much as I do, which I recognise is necessary to maintain the level of supply demanded. My operation cannot do that, no matter how much I want it to, so I supply to a specialist market that is willing to pay for the product I produce. I don't have to imagine any of that, it's a fact. I suspect the facts are similar in the farming game.

PF, thanks for that. I wasn't trying to be a smartarse and I appreciate your answer. There is a lot of confusion, emotion and misinformation peddled on these topics and it's nice to see some honesty and facts.

Hi all

So, Antiseptic, based on that principle, how do you make a quid? Do you fit a niche in some way?

Furthermore (until science tells us otherwise), "efficiencies", or "economies of scale vs "economies of size" of so-called factory farming are at the expense of, and compromise the welfare and well-being of millions of sentient beings (not timber), day in, day out, year in, year out. As PF points out - possibly the "efficiencies" may be false ones, given the amount they have to spend on drugs to keep the poor, wretched animals alive in these filthy environments.

As an example of what seems outrageous stupidity to me, an article in one of the farming journals (from one of the colder regions) contains a story of research into preparations to keep sheep which are newly shorn in the middle of winter from freezing to death. Would the simple answer not be not to shear the poor things in the middle of winter (just in time for snow, it was)

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky, we can check in those pigs for a private suite at the Hilton
if you wish, as long as the consumer wears it.

Last time I checked, Woolies earned around 76% return on capital,
banks, Telstra and others won't lift a finger below 20-25% returns.
Farming earns around 1% and if its any lower, well you can buy
your food from China in future.

So thats the bottom line, its up to consumers really. If people
want cheaper cheaper, effiency will be the key, or people are out
of the industry.

You are free to try to persuade people to pay for all the provisions
that you want provided for livestock, but the consumer has to pay
for them.

Any business will close, if it can't pay the bills. Of course
there is plenty of "certified organic" food from China available,
if that is what consumers prefer. Its not up to farmers, its up
to consumers.