Cuphandle, I've called gibo a fruitloop in the past, though given the saucer shenanigans and the fact he'd also called myself and others pedophiles simply for arguing against censorship, I'd say it's justified. Then there's the arguments based on 'prophecies'...

I don't recall where I called you a fruitloop, though if you could post a link I'd be obliged.

I've not insulted those who argue for animal rights. I've insulted some people who happen to argue for animal rights, because I disagree with their methods.

In much the same way as farmers appear to be being abused in their entirety on this thread, when in actuality I'm sure you realise it's only a group of fringe farmers who do such things - as Antiseptic has pointed out, it's not only cruel but bad business sense.

How about this - I'll agree not to make the cliche of saying all those who argue for animal rights are fruitloops and it's just a minority on the fringe, if you agree that most farmers are decent hardworking people, though there are some who do engage in unacceptable cruelty.

It just appears so often that many people are content to just attack farmers in their entirety.

I often suspect that this is based around a vegan attitude, that meat shouldn't be eaten, thus anyone who participates in meat eating is bad to a certain extent. Those who eat it are only a little bad, but those who are in the industry must be very bad.

Which is what fuels their attacks on farmers, which means exaggerating that minority into a majority.

Ask yourself - is this accurate? I suspect often it is. Given that most Australians do eat meat and feel no remorse for doing so, I tend to think it's those judging them who are on the fringe.

And yes. I'll judge those people who exaggerate harshly, just as they seem content to place themselves on a moral pedestal above the rest of Australian society.

Hi all

Cuphandle, thank you for putting it so succinctly. As a man of experience in farming matters, I'd suggest that you are better qualified to comment than anyone here. I, for one, appreciate the wisdom and insight you bring to these threads.

Antiseptic (in particular) and TRTL, what makes you think that it is an "either or" (caring about animals and caring about humans? Nor has anyone here stereotyped all farmers as being cruel.

That said, I would suggest that anyone involved in intensive pig farming, live exports and battery hen farming is knowingly and wantonly cruel. If the wider pubic were to see inside these operations, I believe that veganism/vegetarianism would skyrocket. And Linda McCartney said that if slaughterhouses had glass walls, the world would become vegetarianism.

Antiseptic, did you find the appalling treatment of that pig acceptable, or should we in fact be outraged by it? There is nothing "extreme" about feeling sickened and horrified by such a story.

For the record, I have never attempted to force a vegan/vegetarian agenda upon anyone. My friends, colleagues and family know my feelings but do not feel in any way compromised by them. And I manage to thrive on a herbivorous diet, and have done so for years. The RSPCA is good for companion animals but largely lethargic about farm animals, and the EPA is pretty much lethargic about most things, I find. Furthermore, the RSPCA, which has the powers under POCTAA legislation in all jurisdictions, is a charity, and with the best will in the world lacks the means to properly enforce the legislation it is empowered with. POCTAA legislation is the only set of laws in the country largely enforced by a charity, and that is unconscionable.

Farmers are largely protected from cruelty charges under POCTAA legislation, because (voluntary) Codes of Practice exist, allowing them to do things that would attract prosecution were they done to a "companion" animal.

Nicky

A troubling scenario is emerging in regard to intensive farming. Feedlots and piggeries plan to 'greenwash' their industries by providing biogas to our fuel starved population. How they propose to collect these gases is just too hard to think about. Airtight covers over bubbling, toxic cess pools sucking out the methane maybe ....

Intensive pigs farms actually claim that their gas will be the greenest of all! Pigs, unlike ruminants, produce very little methane. Its when it is collected in effluent ponds that the bacteria get to work and produce it in abundance.

We may well be looking at a future with a new breed of farmer, beef and pork will just be a bi-product. As for the actual animals ....

Seems factory farming has a future after all.

Hi all

Nice to catch up again, PF. That is really a scary thought, because it gives the intensive pig farmers (and the others) ammunition for their perverted argument, doesn't it?

Cheers
Nicky

Given that people want to eat meat, someone has to supply the meat for them to eat. How would those opposed to intensive farming practises suggest that might be achieved other than by intensive farming?

I really don't see vegetarianism as an alternative for most people. My ex-wife was a dedicated vegetarian but, as she discovered, that diet is not adequate for a pregnant woman unless she does nothing but eat all day long -possibly not even then. While there is no question that we probably all eat far more meat than we need, we do better with some meat than with none.

Nicky, I found the experience of the pig hunt quite dreadful and I had already seen quite a bit of unthinking cruel treatment of animals within that culture. There is also a fair bit of cruelty toward people: life was very cheap at that time and place. OTOH, the pig had lead a full piggy life, never having been caged or constrained unlike the animals on farms. It lived very much the same lifestyle as the people who hunted it and was pretty much regarded as an equal by them. They regarded killing it in the way they did as both practical and of no consequence, since any of them could die horribly just as easily and with as little warning. There may have been some spiritual significance to the practise as well, but I'm not sure.

Do you regard those people as depraved and evil for behaving in that way? Some of the rhetoric coming from the "animal lobby" seems to try to paint farmers as such and they are far more scrupulous about their stock.

One of the big drivers of farming practices is public pressure. Farmers provide what the public will consume. This is a whole industry of course, as some areas of the country are only suitable for particular types of production. Profit is a consideration, as farmers run a business (this "bad" profit arguement sits at the opposite end of the scale to those whinging about handouts that farmers get due to lack of profits). Farmers however do not make huge profits. In a few years out of every 10 there will be a "big" year, but this is the high end of the average, and is usually offset by losses in some years. Farming is akin to gambling, as there is high reliance on factors outside of the farmers control, hence some of the attraction of intensive farming, as many more factors are controllable. Because profits are not significant careful consideration needs to be given to any activity undertaken or not. The public are not prepared to pay any more for their food or fibre - they can import them much cheaper from overseas where not only are animals and the environment exploited to a far worse extent than locally, but the human workforce is too.

None of this excuses deliberate cruelty. But it must also be remembered how far we've come. Back in the droughts in the 40's, hundreds of thousands of animals would have starved to death in a way that we now find abhorrent. Then, lack of transport meant that there was no alternative, particularly with tens of thousands of animals on single large properties, which meant even destroying the animals was a difficult task. Now we have good road transport and in most cases can either ship stock off to the abby's, out on agistment or bring feed in.

Lets keep a little perspective as to the realities of market demands, improving practices, potential alternatives, and also what nature is like. Humans are rarely more cruel than mother nature herself, but tend to be very good at forgetting this when we get on our high-horse.