Hi all

CJ Morgan and TRTL, I have two dogs, both of mixtures of the "working dog" breeds (Border Collie/Kelpie/Blue Heeler). One was dumped at the RSPCA. The other came from a litter of 8 puppies that an animal advocacy group found in the care of a man at a local folk festival, who reported that he had the puppies because the people who owned the mother had shot her because they were sheep farmers, and if he did not find homes for the puppies that day they would be drowned. We packed them all up, brought them back, bottle fed them every two hours, kept them together for their first 12 weeks, with veterinary care throughout, then found them (stringently vetted) homes.

Also in my household are a number of "spent" hens from a battery farm. When we brought them home, they had almost no feathers, they had raw skin and lesions, they did not know they could stand properly or spread their wings, and had never known fresh air and sunlight.

A friend of mine is an animal welfare inspector. This week, he has a dairy farmer on 112 cruelty charges and counting over the starvation deaths of countless cows and metres-long pits full of dead calves.

I have attended a court case where a sheep farmer starved to death 400 sheep, some down and so weak that crows had pecked out their eyes. 1,000 more on the same property were scored by a government veterinarian as "emaciated, near death". I couldn't believe it when I heard the sentence - a 28 day, wholly suspended term of imprisonment (no fine, no prohibition on keeping animals again).

Is that enough for you? I have more, and reporting facts that are a matter of public record does not make one a fruit-loop.

Nicky

”This should be an entertaining gathering of frootloops, if anybody bites :)”

Ad hominem abuse usually and most notoriously involves insulting or belittling one's opponent. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions.

This tactic is frequently employed as a propaganda tool among a consortium on OLO, who endorse the inhumane treatment of livestock and are attempting to influence the poster base in their favour through an appeal to emotion rather than by logical means, especially since their own position is bereft of substance and is logically weaker than their opponents.

1......Spaying:

"Traditional spaying involves removal of the ovaries through an incision in the left flank or by passage spaying through an incision in the dorso-cranial aspect of the vagina.

"Flank spaying has been the predominant method used but results in hide damage and carcass trim and has been opposed by welfare groups. However in recent years there has been a dramatic increase in the use of the Willis dropped-ovary technique.

"Compared to flank spaying, it has many advantages for the extensive cattle industry. These include higher numbers can be spayed per day (and) no hide damage or carcass trim." (AUSTRALIAN BRAHMAN BREEDERS’ ASSOCIATION LIMITED)

2......NSW DPI:

"Agriculture has created a highly simplified biodiversity for efficient production. Agricultural practice has reduced the genetic, species and ecosystem diversities by:

"Clearing trees and draining wetlands;

"Growing a limited range of crops, usually as monocultures;

"Raising a limited number of animal species, often unsuited to Australian soil conditions;

"Using chemicals to control species that threateen production output;

"Breeding selectively to reduce diversity within agricultural plant and animal species.

"Tree clearing has led to rising watertables and increasing salinity, and species decline due to habitat loss.

"Monoculture cropping systems have less resilience in combating disease and pests.

"Overgrazing by agricultural animals has resulted in soil erosion and compaction, and loss of native grass species.

"Chemical use has reduced species diversity and created insects and weeds resistant to commonly used chemicals.

"Selective breeding has reduced species resistance, adaptability and biodiversity."

Just a simple observation: we humans are omnivorores, which means we thrive on a diet including both meat and vegetables. In order for the meat to be made available, there must be animals killed.In order for the animals to be killed, there must be animals available. All that a farmer of animals does is to try to ensure that his stock is available to be killed. Anything else is extraneous to his purpose. He will do so in the most efficient way he can, which usually means ensuring his animals remain in a condition suitable for sale. Any farmer that allows his stock to deteriorate will soon be out of business, just as any other businessman who failed to properly look after his stock would be.

To suggest that farmers deliberately damage their stock is as risible as suggesting that I would deliberately leave my stock in the weather to deteriorate if I had an alternative.

Just as an aside, have any of the animal rights people here ever watched a genuine, traditional stone-age hunt? I grew up in PNG and I was fortunate to take part in just such an exercise when
I was about 13 or 14. The carnage inflicted on the animal (a pig) was quite dreadful and it was trussed to a pole and carried off to the village still alive, if badly wounded. It was dunked into a pot of boiling water, still alive, to soften the bristles for easier removal and then its throat was cut. There was much merriment over its struggles and screams when being boiled.

To put that in perspective, the people of that tribe had an infant mortality rate of nearly 50%. When you have a real struggle to survive, feeling bad about an animal isn't high on your list of priorities.

"A Royal Commission into farmers' practices...when please?"

Sounds like you haven't considered the logistics Gibo.

...and who's gonna pay for it?.

...and what do you think the RSPCA is for?.

...and the EPA?.

With you observing all these horrendous acts, why didn't you call any of them?. Doesn't that make you just as guilty as the farmer?.

CJMorgan,TLTR:
Myself and many others who support the humane treatment of animals of all types in this country should refuse to debate any issue with you when you are rude enough to classify us all as "frootloops"!.....however to allow you to categorize us as such, simply for your own sick type of entertainment, would simply be an indication that we are in fact wrong in the support of our issues!

Far from being wrong,... myself and other concerned members of this society can only offer an opinion about what we consider to be an important issue to both the welfare of the subject animals/birds and the future of the natural environment...."without it....we are all stuffed!"

A debate can only occur when sensible, reasonably well-mannered opinions are presented by genuinely concerned persons, therefor I am most disappointed to see your most childish comment indicating your lack of compassion or comprehension of the feelings of others who contribute to this forum!