dickie, you imply CJ Morgan is merely stating his opinions all the better to ingratiate himself with farmers, because his business is in a farmer area.

Aside from the fact gathering personal information on posters is about the ugliest tactic on OLO, the logic fails. Your implication he's doing it for business reasons is impractical and would require farmers he knows at a business level to be monitoring this.

Using those same details, a more convincing argument would be he actually knows more about rural areas than those who do not live and work with farmers.

Dickie, attacking the same personal details you picked would eliminate the vast majority of people who actually know about farming.

But as long as you can score some cheap points, what's the problem right?

To bring things back to topic, at least we're agreed it's not most doing these things.
I take on board comments about intensive animal farming. Sometimes it's ugly, though I don't think the average (note - average) cattle feedlot is the terrible place it's made out to be.

There are legal requirements.

Dunno about pig feedlots, and I'll concede battery hen operations often are hideous places, though I think more people are opting for free-range eggs.

It comes back to profitability.
Speak of the high profits of companies, but you'll find most farmers who run small feedlots have slim margins.
If their operation is cruel, then yes, action needs to be taken.

But often they're not. That acknowledgement is crucial, I'd not condone bankrupting a farmer simply because some prefer unrealistic standards for the animals.
This isn't condoning cruelty, it's realising there must be compromise on issues of profitability.

The mentality that farmers are the enemy, must change.
Regardless of halfhearted caveats, that's the attitude that's shining through here.

If there are genuinely profitable ways to make their operations more animal-friendly and profitable, they'll adopt them. It's more effective to make consumers discerning instead of focusing at the other end. When consumers generate demand for humanely treated produce, their needs are met.

It's about compromise. Who can and who can't.

"Dickie, if you want farmers to change their ways, you won't achieve it by running around hand-waving every time you're asked how to do it. Remember, the farmer doesn't necessarily agree with you that his practises are bad, so unless your alternative is viable, you're not going to be listened to."

Antiseptic

"Hand-waving" has resulted in firm action by the international community. I do agree with you that one cannot directly reason with an industry that views acts of cruelty (perpetrated on defenceless livestock,) as collateral damage.

The following article is in direct conflict to your opinion that "hand-waving" is futile and I have several other articles which report the loss of trade for Australia because of this nation's propensity to inflict cruelty on commercial animals.

March 28, 2008 02:16am
Article from: Herald Sun

"A MAJOR British clothing retailer has joined the growing international corporate boycott of Australian wool amid concerns about mulesing. Matalan, a discount chain with about 200 stores across Britain, agreed to the move after meeting with animal rights group People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA).

"While Matalan has not bought wool from Australia in the past, it has adopted a policy against buying Australian wool from mulesed merinos.

"(We have) instructed our suppliers that they must not source Australian merino wool for any future orders (and) we will now include this as part of our auditing process," its technical and corporate purchasing director David Mellett said in an email to PETA.

"About 50 European retailers, including Swedish giant H&M, have introduced the policy, as well as US chains Timberland and Abercrombie & Fitch."

Mulesing, I believe, would be less painful than ovarectomies performed on cattle in Australia but the international community are not aware of this heinous procedure - at least not yet, so it will be more "hand-waving" from me!

"Aside from the fact gathering personal information on posters is about the ugliest tactic on OLO, the logic fails"

TRTL. I believe you're too obtuse to realise that I would not waste my time on "gathering personal information" on Morgan. However, I do have a retentive memory. I do read the contents of a thread and memorise much.

Nevertheless, one must endure those on OLO (like yourself and Morgan) who bear grudges against others - the losers, obsessed with stalking and flaming, ignoring the topic and manipulating the facts whilst abusing others.

A "get even" mindset and "the ugliest tactic on OLO."

Was it therapeutic for you, TRTL? Feel better now?

PF, you are trying to compare apples with oranges here, two quite
different markets.

One is pork the commodity, where price is the driving factor.
Australians seemingly just cannot compete with Americans, Canadians,
etc, on a global scale. The competitors are simply too large, too
cut throat, etc. They are also quite content to stare down the next
guy, to see who blinks first, forcing others out of business.

Net result is that our large scale producers are losing money, as
they are exposed to global market forces and competition.

What you are doing is niche marketing, a different market, not
purely based on price, as is the commodity market.

Yes, more affluent consumers will pay extra for guilt free pork.
Just as they will buy a Prius, to make an environmental statement.
You are essentially selling a story, a philosophy etc. A %
of the population will pay for that, a large % won't.

Its no different with free range chooks, free range eggs etc,
where consumers go to a supermarket and vote with their wallets.
They can choose the free range if they wish. By the numbers we
can deduce that the price market is one market, the niche market
is a small but different one, do not confuse the two.

Fact is that when it comes to price, your system simply cannot
compete. Focussing on niche, for those who are so inclined,
in that case makes perfect sense, but its not for everyone.
I can't see large corporations running humpies on the hill for
their pigs, as you do, for your niche market.

*"While Matalan has not bought wool from Australia in the past, it has adopted a policy against buying Australian wool from mulesed merinos.*

Hehe, fanatics like Dickie think that anyone but the highly gullible,
take this crap seriously? Its pure Peta propaganda, no more.

Fact is that most farmers are telling Peta to get stuffed and will
continue mulesing. As has been pointed out, when options are
offered that are viable, they will be used.

Yup - dickie confirms my observation that there's really only been one frootloop attracted to Gibo's silly thread. Fortunately the rest of us sane types conduct businesses or work and pay taxes so that she can receive the welfare benefit that allows her to engage in her loopy "hand-waving" instead of doing something productive.

Unfortunately, her tactics don't really do much other than alienate the primary producers whose practices she seeks to change.

What has changed since Sept Antiseptic? Back then they at least held hope that the productivity commission would stop imports, that didnt happen. The price of fuel has skyrocketed and grain prices certainly havent dropped. Who said the drought was over??

Yabby, let me enlighten you just a little. You are right about one thing, I am niche farmer and thats where I want to stay. Like I said, free range is the ultimate in pork and I target the top end of the market. As for your comment "I can't see large corporations running humpies on the hill for their pigs, as you do, for your niche market." you couldnt be more wrong. You ought to keep an eye out around WA as George Weston are seriously getting behind free range. I believe you wouldnt have to go far from your own front door to visit a large free range piggery. Take a look at Otway Pork or Westerns Plains, thousands of sows in rows and rows of huts (not humpies yabby), some of them even on hills!

These are all different ways of farming pigs, not necessarily free range, but far more welfare friendly than intensive sheds using crates and sow stalls.

"The competitors are simply too large, too cut throat, etc. They are also quite content to stare down the next guy, to see who blinks first, forcing others out of business."

The comeptitors and too well subsidised and dump their product here. Anyway, if this is the case and nothing can be done to stop it, why keep banging your head against the same brick wall and losing money?? Produce a product that cant be imported.