Nicky: << CJ Morgan, who are your notable exceptions? I haven't been "farmer bashing", but I have been bashing cruel practices and will continue to do so. >>

I guess I should have said 'one notable exception', but even you imply that most farmers are routinely cruel. I agree that cases like those you cite should be prosecuted, as would most farmers that I know.

"Unless you can come up with some compelling reason for the large producers to forego their profits in favour of PF's rural idyll, you won't get far that way, so you must provide them with an option that allows them to maintain their profits while treating animals more humanely."

Simple Antiseptic - I practice what I preach. The intensive pork industry is going out backwards and losing around $50 per head. I on the other hand run a free range operation providing a product to a market that is under supplied and getting a price that my product deserves.

Intensive farms are closing their doors, meanwhile my operation keeps expanding and I can sleep at night.

Hardly an idyll, more like a sound business strategy. Certainly not one that is forgoing any profits!

PF:"The intensive pork industry is going out backwards and losing around $50 per head. "

That's an extraordinary claim, PF. Why then do people continue to fund such a money-loser? Given that many such large operaions are the preserve of large corporations, why have the various shareholder's groups allowed such a thing to go on? Frankly, I'm skeptical. No doubt you'll be able to substantiate your claim, preferably by reference to actual balance sheets, rather than the website of some animal-rights group?

Please do take note, I'm not at all critical of your operation, in fact I admire what you're doing, but it's not easily applicable to the large-scale operations that are what is claimed to be the problem, is it?

Given that we have a rapidly-expanding population, which means that we need more food, do you really see your own operation as able to be sufficiently scaled up to compete economically and productively with the intensive ones? If so, how?

No Antiseptic, you find me quoting animal welfare groups. How about the CEO of Australian Pork Limited? The peak industry body in australia. http://www.australianpork.com.au/pages/images/Australian%20Pig%20Farmers%20on%20Brink%20of%20Ruin.pdf

I have explained in a previous post the direction I would like to see the pork industry go. For me, free range is the ultimate, but there are areas in between. There are other methods of farming pigs extensively that are far more animal welfare friendly than factory farms. Some are going that way now. Growing out pigs in eco shelters for example. Why not extend that practice to sows?

In my opinion, there is absolutely no need for sow stalls and farrowing crates other than enabling the producer to cram thousands of animals in a very small area and have them totally in their control. Farrowing crates DO NOT stop piglets being laid on. These are the cruelest issues with intensive production and some that could be changed if the industry would just get its head out of the sand. Instead, they want to hang on to the infrastructure they already have at all costs, even if it means losing money. It just doesnt make sense.

The demand for welfare friendly meat is huge. The demand of export for the product is huge. Whats wrong with these people?!

Since there’s not much going on in Morgan’s head, I advise that it would take a much more intelligent man than he to insult me - a snivelling little man who declared: “This should be an entertaining gathering of frootloops, if anybody bites :)”

Now he returns to the "gathering of frootloops" to protect his interests, ingratiating himself with some real farmers. We all know from his blatherings that he “lives in the same district as Country Gal.” We all know that he “lives and works with farmers.” We know that he conducts a regional business in a farming area. One CJ Morgan would not wish to reduce his profit margins – indeed not.

Antiseptic, You suggest:

“Now, instead of reiterating what we already know (intensive farming is bad for animals, good for profits), what about those suggestions for improving it?”

How do innocent parties “improve” animal cruelty? Well we can continue to vigorously inform the national and international communities of the atrocities perpetrated on animals by this industry in Australia, however, like the recidivist criminal, isn’t the industry responsible for its own misdeeds, misdeeds encouraged and condoned by immoral and ignorant governments?

Have the guilty offered any solutions Antiseptic?

In the meantime, we will seek solutions for improvements by advising Australians and the international community while the industry wallows in its ill-gotten gains. This is an industry which scoffs at and sabotages organic and free range farmers. In truth, the community are growing very aware of who the real “extremists” are.

Do we experience a little de ja vous when reading of the endeavours of past "extremists" who contributed to the closure of the whaling industry in Western Australia during the 70’s?:

“But the protest kept whaling on the international agenda, helped destabilise prices for whale goods and became an issue for Australia's December election.

“Opposition leader Gough Whitlam promised a moratorium while Prime Minister Malcolm Fraser promised an inquiry. By the time Fraser's inquiry recommended the cessation of whaling, the Cheynes Beach Whaling Company had closed.”

And “those who ignore history will be forced to repeat it.”

PF, the press release you quoted was from September last year, when all farmers were suffering from the terrible effects of a bad and sustained drought. I'm sure that there were press releases of a similar nature emanating from every producer's organisation in the country. One of the main whinges was in regard to imported product, which has been a hobby-horse of local producers for some time.

If an intensive producer chooses to move toward free range, how does he implement it? How does he move from a small-footprint, high-intensity operation to the reverse without incurring massive costs and risking huge losses in the process? The two forms of farming are altogether different, aren't they?

Dickie, if you want farmers to change their ways, you won't achieve it by running around hand-waving every time you're asked how to do it. Remember, the farmer doesn't necessarily agree with you that his practises are bad, so unless your alternative is viable, you're not going to be listened to.