Oops, I re-read my comment and that's not correct :P

These should be seperate:

Steel>"Vanilla I found your response balanced and thoughtful"

Period. That should have ended there.

Steel>"but i thought i retracted [the inferences about your intelligence] at the time-Your comment here demonstrates that you are not ['thick']."

See, I made a mistake it should have read like that.

Steel>"There is nothing wrong with being thick though [*if* you were] if you have more sense and insight than another who isn't."

Sorry, Vanilla if you read it literally. I sometimes throw around these things loosely anyway and sometimes to my regret.

Let me ask the corollary to this question, as the original question seems to have been answered in the affirmative: is it possible to be fulfilled as masculine and non-feminist in today's world? There is an enormous amount of publicly-funded pressure being put on blokes to be more like women in their behaviours and precious little encouragement given to express the conventional masculine traits of self-reliance, courage-of-conviction, independence and so on. Do women really want men who are women with a penis? If so, why, what is the attraction? As a bloke who is probably fairly regarded as a "man's man", I have few interests in common with most women, yet we seem to get on fine until they inevitably decide I'm too "blokey" and try to change me; usually into some version of the currently fashionable "ideal".

It seems this was always the case mind you, as my Dad used to say "a woman picks a man because she thinks she can change him; a man picks a woman because he thinks she'll remain the same". In his day, both were likely to be disappointed; today?

there are a few interesting questions arising in this thread, about the nature of feminism, and the nature of feminity

I like antiseptic's comments in the post before this one, about women picking the man who will change for her, and men picking the woman who will not, and both being inevitably disappointed. It seems to be a more universal truth than any feminist dogma, despite how much we all love our feminist liberation.

I have a question for everybody who can be bothered to contemplate it:

Are men more likely, (or perhaps even more capable), of noticing what defines femininity than women are?

It may well be the case that only a female could ever believe that being feminine and feminist had any possibility of being mutually exclusive.

That is to say, I reckon men are more different from us girls, than we often give them credit for. (after all, why else would any girl . . . )

Some great comments by CJ, Vanilla, Romany, RObert, Fractelle, Curaezipirid and interesting reflection by Antiseptic – I wonder if this is how men see women today? There may be an element of trught there although personally I wouldn’t choose a mate that I think I need to change to my image of perfection - too exhausting and life is too short.:)

Curaezipirid you ask an interesting question. "Are men more likely, (or perhaps even more capable), of noticing what defines femininity than women are?"

Even males might differ on what they view as feminine or attractive. Sometimes my husband and I disagree on what constitutes ‘attractive’. Maybe a woman’s perception of women is different than men - has to be I guess as I am not seeking sex from another woman whereas a man's perception will be governed by this to a large extent.

And : “It may well be the case that only a female could ever believe that being feminine and feminist had any possibility of being mutually exclusive.”

Not necessarily as demonstrated by the comments of most posters but I take your point given the title of the thread. Women have so long been criticised, pilloried and satirized by men for feminism (not all men) and aspersions about feminists as hairy armpitted, short-haired, b**l crunchers .... well you get the point...don’t help.

Personally I think we all can be whatever and whomever we wish to be and the good thing about reaching middle age is you tend not to worry so much about what others think. And as RObert said we are lucky when we find someone will accept us for who we are

cont...

Vanilla
I agree with you, the happiest relationships are where the partners respect each other as equals - don't know how either partner could be fulfilled if they were to feel either diminished or overtly powerful in the relationship.

It is apparent that concepts of masculinity and femininity alter and evolve over time. I can think of many examples of women considered beautiful or feminine in the 30s and 40s may not rate a mention now, and many commentators have surmised that even Marilyn Monroe would not have made it in today's 'thin' obsessed culture. The media plays a big part in this. It is probably well that we all have different views on attractiveness - otherwise a lot of poor sods and soddesses would be alone.

And we certainly have moved away from the Neanderthal times when the caveman would, by nature of his physical superiority, be able to drag off any woman of his liking to his cave (yes...I am assuming this was so as I wasn't there at the time :D).

My girls are very different - one more a tomboy who won't wear dresses and the other loves to wear makeup and dress in skirts and the like. I was probably a bit of both, and was often found hanging upside down in a mango tree playing cowboys and indians with my brother and friends.

Before I left home my father taught me to change a tyre, a sparkplug and points so that I could look after myself when I left home but luckily I never had to do it as the few times it ever happened with my old bomb of a car a man would always pull over to help. I didn't expect it, but appreciated it all the same. :)

Pelican

"Before I left home my father taught me to change a tyre, a sparkplug and points so that I could look after myself when I left home but luckily I never had to do it as the few times it ever happened with my old bomb of a car a man would always pull over to help. I didn't expect it, but appreciated it all the same."

Excellent, your parents taught you to be resourceful - which is the best parents can do for all their children (boys and girls). Who wants a man incapable of cooking? Who wants a helpless woman? Masculinity, to me, means a man who is comfortable with himself and not threatened by either strong women or homosexuals. A man who is comfortable with himself is comfortable to be with :-)

Romany, thanks for saving me the bother of asking Boaz "WhatTha?"

Boaz, if you want to mock just make sure you haven't been dipping into the sacramental wine and actually make some sense in future.