Agriculture Minister Tony Burke has announced that the live cattle trade to Egypt is to resume.

How can we forget the appalling, brutal film footage of cattle having their leg tendons slashed and eyes stabbed at the infamous Bassetin slaughterhouse, and now resume providing cattle?

Animals Australia today criticised the failure of the Agriculture Minister to censure the live export industry whilst announcing the reopening of the trade to Egypt.

"Minister Burke has announced that that there will now be strict requirements in place to protect the welfare of Australian cattle in Egypt, but he pointedly ignores the culpability of the live export trade in previously sending over one million animals to be brutalized in Egypt", said Animals Australia's Executive Director Glenys Oogjes today.

The Minister claims that strict "requirements" will be in place.
Today's announcement states that Australian cattle will now be killed in accordance with international standards. The international standards Minister Burke refers to are the OIE (World Organisation for Animal Health) guidelines. These very basic standards do not require the stunning of animals prior to slaughter; are not ‘world's best practice' and are well below acceptable standards in Australia.

And we have so much irrefutable evidence of how well Egypt complies with agreements it has made, do we not? It should also be noted that following Animals Australia's last investigation, Australia is not sending sheep to Egypt, but it continues to send sheep to other Middle Eastern countries where extensive and routine brutal treatment of animals has been filmed and documented over many such investigations, as recently as the end of last year.

This is an appalling position for the Rudd government to take, and is a clear indication that Rudd said anything he thought would get him elected about gross animal abuse

Nicky

My perusal of the OIE website reveals very little on standards for animal welfare but much more on keeping livestock disease free - to assist the international livestock industry in maintaining healthy profits. Sadly they have failed miserably - both on the welfare and the health issues.

Australia has been exporting cattle since 1901. ABARE in 2005 stated that Australia "now exports more live cattle than any other country."

Following the government's NCCAW advisory group's meeting as far back as April 1994, which replaced an earlier Position Statement on the Live Sheep Export Trade, NCCAW stated:

"NCCAW** considers the live sheep trade with the Middle East should immediately be:

"halted on animal welfare grounds, and

"not be permitted to resume,

OR

"any new trade with any other country to commence, until all issues affecting the assured stability of the trade are resolved by establishment of appropriate inter-Governmental protocols between importing countries and Australia.

"** Note: The National Farmers' Federation does not endorse this position."

The "OR" implementation has been a total farce and naturally, the tyrannical cabal of meat lobbyists have clearly kept successive governments captive with a myriad of persuasive submissions.

Next Sunday, I shall be participating in the "Million Paws Walk" to be conducted in every state and in 70 different locations.

Last year saw over 40,000 participants and this year it is anticipated that the number will significantly increase.

I believe that nothing less than a concerted national "Live Export - Evil" walk day, (planned through a coalition of all state animal welfare organisations), will attract the attention of this government who has clearly breached the shallow pre-election promises on the issue of live exports.

The Rudd government's decision to resume trade with Egypt sends us all an unequivocal message, that the very least concern Kevin Rudd has is the welfare of these abused and tormented animals.

Truly a disgraceful decision, Nicky.

Nicky you are obviously ignorant to the facts.

The cattle in the footage which you are talking about are not Australian cattle. Australian cattle cant be led around on a lead they are too wild. I come from a cattle farm. Trust me I know! They were most likely Egyptian cattle. If you want to protest about how Egyptian cattle are killed that’s all well and good and I do support you in that sense but to try and torpedo the Australian cattle trade by DELIBRETLY lying and using footage which you know is not of Australian cattle being killed is low down grubbery act.

Now apologise to the good people who read OLO for wasting there time in with your baseless fabricated garbage.

EasyTimes

So in your feeble-mind it's OK to torture Egyptian animals's eh?

If the Egyptians torture their own animals, the Australian animals, no doubt can look forward to a double dose of cruelty.

Now apologise to the good people who read OLO for wasting there (sic) time in (sic) with your baseless fabricated garbage!

Buffoon!

Dickie “So in your feeble-mind it's OK to torture Egyptian animals's eh?” I never said I supported the harming of Egyptian animals I was just point out the Nicky was trying to deceive everybody hear by making false accusations. Its obvious Dickie that you suffer from a form of dyslexia if you had read my post properly I said that I supported her is she want to protest the way Egyptians treat their animals. Now stop making a Dick of yourself!

EasyTimes

The topic of this thread is the resumption of live exports to Egypt and the cruel manner in which Egyptians treat livestock.

You claim that:

"I said that I supported her is (sic) she want to protest the way Egyptians treat their animals."

Australian animals on Egyptian soil are owned by Egyptians. They endure the same abominable treatment as any other livestock in that country.

What has the breed of the animal in the footage to do with this issue? The cruelty portrayed was atrocious.

Australian animals in Egypt will also have their tendons slashed and their eyes stabbed and the Australian cattle industry know this and yet are to resume this dreadful trade.

Of course, our cattle industry and the Egyptians have one thing in common - cruelty to livestock. Since our cattle industry slash the flanks of cattle (without painkillers) to hack out the ovaries, why would they care what happens to their cattle exports?

Therefore, it appears that you are not supporting the torture of Egyptian animals but you, an Australian cattle man, endorse the abominable torture of Australian cattle.

Which is it EasyTimes?

Make up your mind and "stop making a dick of yourself."

Dickie as I said you cant get Australian cattle to stand there with a rope around there necks they are too big and strong! The Egyptian cattle do that because in all likely hood they share the house with the people and have had humans with in metres of them every day of their life. Unlike Australian cattle which run wild in comparison.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Australia-suspends-Egypt-cattle-exports/2006/02/27/1140888767141.html

Dickie do yourself a favour and give up and stop making a fool of yourself. Its obvious you don’t know what you are talking about and with all the gibberish you have posted you have only shown you know nothing about the subject.

EasyTimes

You state:

"Dickie as I said you cant (sic) get Australian cattle to stand there with a rope around there (sic) necks they are too big and strong!"

Well we all know that when Australian cowpokes hack cattle's ovaries off (without painkillers), you first lock them in a steel vice.

So just respond to my previous statement:

"Therefore, it appears that you are not supporting the torture of Egyptian animals but you, an Australian cattleman, endorse the abominable torture of Australian cattle."

Would that be a "Yes" or a "No" Cowboy?

Dickie - "hack cattle's ovaries off (without painkillers)" I cant say I know what you are talking about. I dont know of any reason as to why anybody would hack of a cows ovaries. Could you explain the reasoning behind it.

"I dont know of any reason as to why anybody would hack of a cows ovaries. Could you explain the reasoning behind it."

EasyTimes

The only reasonable response to your question is nausea.

And could you explain the reason behind your reluctance to answer my question?

Why am I not surprised that a cattleman is feigning ignorance on a practice within his own industry?

Nevertheless, below are documents on the spaying of cattle. It appears that the flank spaying is now losing favour and is being replaced by the Willis Drop method.

This method, you see, is better to maintain profits since it does not spoil the animal's hides:

1. Incarcerate cow in steel crush
2. Shove hand up cow's rear end, together with large shears
3. Fumble around for ovaries and "snip"
4. Drop ovaries in cow's internal cavity and send cow packing.

A trial run saw great success. "Skilled" operator managed to hack off 30 pairs of ovaries in one hour but by then, the operator was fatigued and the remaining cattle displayed "poor" temperament.

Cursor to Page 110 of the following:

http://www.nt.gov.au/dpifm/Content/File/p/Pasture/DPIFM_CattleBook.pdf

And:

http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/SLS/RIS_EN/2002/02SL234R.pdf

Hi all
EasyTimes, I cannot see where I stated that they were Australian cattle, so I'd suggest that it is you who should apologize, but let it pass. I would make a couple of points, however. My understanding is that they were breeds only exported from Australia (Charolais/Murray Grey/ and/or cross Brahman) and the only reason that it was not further clarified at the time was because it was not able to be conclusively (i.e. 100%) that it was so (dare one suggest missing NLIS tags?). Claiming that they "may not have been" Australian animals was one of the world's greatest cop-outs.

But the film of the Uruguayan bull in Jordan was something else too, wasn't it? Slammed so hard over the head with a metal bar that he was brought to his knees trembling. And that was before they hacked him to death. Then there's the bull in Egypt, thrown from a truck with his front legs hobbled, then his rear leg tendons were slashed, along with his tail, before he was butchered in the gutter. While ANY animal, regardless of nationality, can be made to suffer like this, they should not be sent. It is as simple as that.

Furthermore, what Dickie says is 100% correct; why is it okay for these people to savage their own, or indeed any animals? It has been made absolutely clear that they have no intention of complying with any agreements they sign, either with Australia or OIE treaties to which they have been signatories for years. And you found the OIE standards to be limited because they are - basic, and substantially below Australian standards.

Like Dickie, I cannot begin to imagine how you people are allowed to treat cattle (or other "farmed" animals) as you do. I think that's called thie Willis technique, is it not? There are other equally charming practices, which I'll detail if you wish.

Cheers
Nicky

Hi again all
Easytimes, there really isn't much scope for cattle in Egypt to be standing around with ropes around there (sic) necks, usually they are blinded with knives and crippled and on the ground with slashed leg tendons.

Tell me, are you completely satisfied that cattle you send to Egypt will not be similarly butchered?

I suggest you re-read the SMH article you posted, and revisit the film footage.

Dickie, that's a great idea about a Live-Export-Evil walk! Perhaps we should make a move in every state for that!

Cheers
Nicky

Hi all

Dickie, I've run out of posts on the other thread, but if we could do a live export evil walk nationally, Yabby and Co could do their "nude frolic" as a protest demo. Of course, you are absolutely right about delusional psychosis.

Guys, I know a really great psychiatrist in Melbourne (my cousin) who is fascinated by delusions, particularly those to do with self-aggrandizement. There are drugs which can HELP you, honest!

Cheers
Nicky

Ooh....I do believe we've upset Mr Woollyflops, Nicky.

Thwarted his delusions?

Best we tell him you're spoken for eh?

Dickie I had a look into the ovaries cutting thing you were talking about and I can tell you that we dont do it and I think it is only practiced in QLD and NT on the big stations. I don’t know enough about it to comment so I will sit on the sidelines for that one.

Nicky you implied that they were Australian cattle. I do remember the video shown on 60min and it was said that the animals on the film were Australian and this was proven to be a total lie.

I am sure that in the 3rd world there are many horrible things done to their animals just like the horrible things that are done to people. If you have a problem with the way people treat their animals in the middle east go there and protest. Don’t try and drag Australians into your argument because it is 2 totally separate issues. As I said the things you say the people there do to cattle cant be done to Australian cattle becasue they are not docile enoguh.

The reason the animals are killed in the way they are is

1. for Allah so that they face Mecca when they die (cow being stab in the eye and head turned so as to be facing Mecca)

2. The tendons are cut so as to make the animal unable to walk.

I do agree that these are both horrible things but don’t try and paint Australians with the same brush as you paint the muslims.

If they were going to kill Australian cattle they would need to be put in a steel race (which would obviously be facing Mecca) and they would use a steel crush to immobilise them (so no need to cut their tendons)

All of these things have been provided in Egypt by meat and livestock Australia at no cost to the Egyptians.

"Dickie I had a look into the ovaries cutting thing you were talking about and I can tell you that we dont do it and I think it is only practiced in QLD and NT on the big stations."

EasyTimes

This spaying is also legal in WA and Tasmania and possibly in Victoria. I'm perplexed with your terminolgy: "only." Are you endeavouring to justify this cruelty - even to one animal?

Furthermore, you say you "don't know enough about it" even though you're from a cattle farm.

"I do agree that these are both horrible things but don’t try and paint Australians with the same brush as you paint the muslims."

The Australian sheep and cattle industry are no less sadistic than the Muslims as you are now well aware EasyTimes.

I have provided you with official Australian government documentation on the surgical spaying of livestock without painkillers.

Therefore, please, spare me any more of the fake protestations.

I'm already filled to capacity with spin from the decaying carcasses of morality in the livestock industry and the devils who strut our halls of parliament.

Hi all

EasyTimes. if the semantics concern you I suggest you re-read the original post. The reference was to "cattle" (non-specified). Expert opinion suggests that they were in fact Australian, it just could not be proven beyond doubt at that time. And Animals Australia has proven on several occasions that it did indeed happen, to coutless Australian cattle, and that the slaughter facilities provided by MLA were not used. See the "Sixty Minutes" transcript where the Egyptian vet attested to that. Then get your facts right.

The "docility" of cattle is as irrelevant as their nationality, when they are crippled by slashed leg tendons and blinded by knives in their eyes, but I take it you find that acceptable so long as they are facing Mecca.

There are no circumstances where such surgical spaying without anaesthesia should be permitted, and that you think it is okay that it occurs "only in NT and Queensland" is a sad indictment upon your industry. Shame on all of you. But then, so much of what you people do to animals - including exporting them - is simply disgraceful. Hot iron branding is also still allowed. Try any of those on your cat or dog and see the consequences of that.

Dickie, I haven't read a response from Yabby to my very constructive suggestion. I'll get back to you!

Cheers
Nicky

Hi all

It's a bit sad, the apparent apathy over cattle being sent to Egypt again, after all we've seen and all we know.

Cheers
Nicky

EasyTimes,

I think you will find this investigation started much like everything else around here - pretty much.
Apart from the babe one nothings thats been done has been orgiginal.
I agree with you easy times and I almost fell off my chair when I saw the 60 minutes footage too for the same reason.
Within seconds of the footage running I said Oh bloody hello the fools.
Everybody else said - whats the matter? I said - Its not an Australian Animal- thats whats they matter.

You know easy times pale conacted them two a
and a half years prior to that wanting to combine a investigation with certain retired federal police and other very expereinced people.

No No No said the leader of AA. Its always been like this. The same thing happend when we asked her to assist brief a silk to bring about a case re animal treatment and lack 0f laws.

Then we have the uni law groups and uni groups. 'How original.'

Nicky is completly brain washed and she posts nothing other than old stuff over and over again off their site.

She hasnt got an original thought and for that matter nor do they.

BUT they at least care what happens . Its just a pity they refuse to learn and their leader IMO is so unwilling to be informed.

Kevin Rudd
Six Months into the job and your Government are already stuffed 'finished.' Thats got to be a new record.

Kevin I spoke with two of your advisors. One who contacted us pre ALP election and Tony Burkes advisor a few months ago.
The first bloke was your mate Kerrys advisor. He claimed he was asked to call by a higher authority.

I listended to him with a mixture of interest disbelief and some amusment.
Of course like everybody else we watched your parties pre election pitch on landline with pretty much the same feeling.

I must addmitt Mr Rudd pale had the heads up having tried to deal with you proir. Your refusal as shadow Minister to report to the public in the middle of the biggest enquiry ever held AWB. The fact that AWB money to SH was not just wheat but blood money from the barbaric evil unnessary trade of live exports.

This was despite the fact 60 minutes two weeks prior had done a doc on live animal exports and you KNEW it was very much in the publics interest and concern.

The second advisor we spoke with was your mate Tonys. He knows as much about live stock as AA IMOP yet HES the advisor- hilarious.

Kevin lets call a spade a spade.

Now heres the difference between yourself and your so called advisor and Animals Australia IMOP. Knowledge on stock its a tie. (congradulations)

However its 'not' their job 'but yours' and the twits you employed.

Over all Mr Rudd Animals Australia have done something that you as a person are not capable of which is have some common deceny.

I am just wondering how much Elders and the other shipping agents toss into your political donations now to allow them to peddle in the barbaric missery of millions of animals.

Tell me does any of that reach the Church Leaders or do you just use our publics purse to buy their silence?

Live animal exports is our nations greatest shame Kevin Rudd.

Your our second.

Hi all

Senator Rachel Siewert (Greens, WA) asked some very powerful questions of the live exporters in Senate Estimate hearings on May 26.

Included in her questions were how the ALES are enforced on a State basis (in the context of the "Al Kuwait" case). Mr Aldred (for the industry) was largely unable to answer her questions on that, beyond saying that the ALES has been changed so that that particular instance could not arise again under the new ALES. Nothing is in place in the States to address this.

She then asked a Mr Read about AQIS activities and the feedlotting process.

Senator Siewert went on to ask Mr Read about the OIE, and whether Australia exported to countries who were not signatories to OIE standards, He didn't know, and deferred related questions to Paul Morris. Mr Morris confirmed MoUs relating to unloading animals were in place with several countries but if they "fall over" Eritrea is the fallback port for rejected shipments.

Finally:
Senator Siewert: If I understand what you have just said, you in fact do not do an analysis against those (OIE) guidelines to see whether countries, even if they are members, are meeting them or not.

Mr Morris—No, we do not, and neither does the OIE, for that matter. They are relatively new guidelines. They have only been in place for a few years now, and so the onus is on members such as Australia and other developed countries to try and encourage the less developed countries who are members of the organisation to adopt those standards. In fact, that is what we have been doing. In addition to the work on infrastructure in these countries, we have been working both in the Middle East and in Asia to try and get them to adopt the standards as part of their legislation or regulations in those regions. So, in essence, we are actually doing our duty, I guess, as a member of the OIE to encourage other countries to meet those standards.

No MoUs are being, or have been, negotiated in SE Asia

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky
Fanstic post . I am afriad I missed all of that. Will forward your comment to Robert to give to QC looking at WA.
What a pity you wouldnt speak Robert to help brief him.
Many ears and hands make light work.
There is a familar ring between this WA Government and for example the raid held on the whistle blower at the media.
Clearly they are totally out of control. Sounds like Senator Rachel Siewert (Greens, WA) might be a good person for him to contact also.
Good work and thanks from pale.

Nicky
I one of your comments you mentioned feed lots. Its very late I wanted to raise this issue with feed lots that I tripped over yesterday.

I was speaking with a farmer supplier about supply and when I mentioned creek fed. I was told one farmers almost lost his accreditation because he was feeding creek fed and not fully intensive feed lot.

Furious I contacted MLA who (are listed in white pages under Government)? Probably just as well because they have such a low profile with directory assistant. /

"They asked what creek fed was ?" Wow Good old MLA are the stock men or not? I dont think!

From there of course they directed me to Aus Meat who used be a Government body but changed to a public registered company?

These are the people (according to MLA) who looked after accreditations. They asked what creek fed was?

Aus Meat 'then' referred me to Aus Qual who are a mob of feed lot industry people and set their own standards?

Of course they were all quick to assure me RSPCA supported all of this.

Perhaps as Hugh doesn’t speak to us and he’s was President of RSPCA National for a long time you might like to ask him WHY he would agree to this?

Mr. Bruce Gormley was the name of the gentleman I spoke to at Aus Meat.

I will provide you with a number in case you would like to make your own enquire 0733619229.

Now before you ask me what creek fed is=
Allowing Animals to walk around a paddock and eat grass and behave naturally while a tractor usually drives around twice a day etc spreading grain for them to eat from troughs on the sides of the paddock.
I would have thought this would assist with disease control not to mention is far more humane.

MLA have a lot to answer and someone ought to tell AVA what creek fed is.
Speaking of AVA why the silence from the others about their discusting lack of action?
Any idea

Hi all

PALE,I have no problem with asking Hugh Wirth, except that he is unlikely to answer me either. After I challenged him about something a few years back, he doesn't like me very much, I'm afraid. I was aware of what creek fed was, but a bit mystified about where the word "creek" fits.

The feedlots I have seen are simply appalling, and of course breach all five freedoms and if any animals other than farm animals were kept that way the operators would be prosecuted. But it's the same old story.

My speaking to your friend Robert would have been no use whatsoever, because I don't have the required qualifications or the knowledge of WA law, or how relevant the overlap with the Constitution (s109 and s118) is. Sadly, it's beginning to look as if that case is just going to "go away" (although it is mentioned in the long "Handle with Care Report".

Rachel would most likely have been briefed with those questions, but she does seem to be very much on top of the issues. That's why I think complaints to the OIE (where the country concerned is a signatory) could be an avenue worth investigating. Most of these ME countries are, from memory.

Nicky

Nickysaid

PALE,I have no problem ..

Palereplies
Doesnt matter. Gets it on record.

Nickysaid
After I challenged ..

Palereplies

:)

See we have something in common.

Nickysaid
I was aware of what creek fed ...
Palereplies
An old timers expression.

Its a 'discrace' that Hugh has not been shouting from the roof tops about feed lots. Now, its going to be harder to stop.
Only way to stop it is to compete in the industry with creek fed and free range.

Pluss of course reopening local abattoirs close to place of origen and diverting orders from live to chilled.

We have to start someplace.

Nickysaid
My speaking to your friend Robert ...
Palereplies
Nicky 'your wrong'. They DO have the knowledge. Its easy for them to access WA law. 'However" I dont have enough knowledge to brief them.QC is looking at another angle= for same results. I asked RSPCA National and they refered us to AA of course.

Robert contacted Glenys and he waited for her email. It has not arrived to date. Its basic background he requires. I can only suggest you could be more helpful than you think. With the GREATEST repect a QC is a bit different to inhouse lawyers.

All he wants to do is help the Animals. Hes a animal lover of the highest order. I think you`d like him TBO

After all what harm could it do to speak to him and the QC. I dont know enough about the WA case .
Still of course that is up to you.
I do however wish you would reconsider for the animals sake.
Nickysaid
Sadly, it's beginning to look as if that case is just going to "go away"
palereplies
Well Nicky thats up to you because you know more than I do about the WA matter. Roberts offered to take it further.
Nickysaid
That's why I think complaints to the OIE (where the country concerned is a signatory) could be an avenue worth investigating. Most of these ME countries are, from memory.
palereplies
I like your thinking- perfect.
PS who is Rachel?

Hi all

PALE, Rachel is (Senator) Rachel Siewert .

And all I know about the "Al Kuwait" case is what I've read from Animals Australia's website. The court transcript is there, along with commentary from one of their lawyers, Dr Malcolm Caulfield. So what I know is publicly available to everyone, downloadable and printable from that website.

My own interpretations are that the only person with the standing to bring an appeal to a higher court (in WA) is the WA Solicitor General (or Attorney General in other jurisdictions), and if that avenue has been blocked (by Ravlich) then no-one else can do it, But I don't know that. It maybe possible somehow to take it to a Federal court but I don't know that either.

The only other comment I would have to make is that while s109 of the Constitution provides for, in a case where there is an inconsistency between Commonwealth and State Law, Commonwealth Law prevails, s118, seemingly conversely, provides for the laws of the States to be protected. But again, that's only my opinion.

Since when does Hugh Wirth scream anything about farm animals from the rooftops? The WSPA (rotating Presidency) [position may be a three year one.

I don't even know whether the OIE angle would be worth pursuing in the light of the answers Rachel Siewert got in Senate Estimates, but it would certainly be good to start embarrassing Egypt, Bahrain, Oman, Kuwait, the UAE, Jordan ... in that order maybe. A media release saying that you were doing it would be worthwhile too.

Nicky

PALE, Rachel is ...
Palereplies
Ok, I see Tar. Thought you might have been refering to legal council.
I once spoke with Dr Malcolm Caulfield. Good of him to do what he did. I will leave it at that.


Your comments re the WA case are most helpful to us. Saves a bit of leg work.
WSPA President has been Hugh for about six years as far as I know Nicky. He was President of both RSPCA and WSPA for a long time.

Anyway it wouldnt make that much difference IMOP. Sometimes its a case of better he devil you know.

It does give some insight into 'how WSPA thinks as a united organisation-' think about it.

I am not talking about all the fantasic staff or voluteers either.
I am sure its a wealth of information finding out what everybody is doing.

Nickysaid
A media release saying that you were doing it would be worthwhile too.

Palecomments
Umm, dont know I would agree with you on that one.
I tend to think the humble quite approach is best. Walk in quitely with senior council who`s well regadred and respected by the Judge. Dont make a public circus out of it or a big deal of it.

That tends to get courts off side straight away by playing up something pre hearing to the media.
I guess its just different strokes for different folks but thats MOP.


Robert had hoped Glenyse would have emailed him as promised.

The whole idea was to 'assist'. Not take it over. You know just give them some extra help in the background. Doesnt look like thats going to be accepted again.

Personally I wouldnt want to do anything without Lyns involement so it might be a case of - Not enough interest.

So if nobody wants to help it probably wont happen IMOP

Hi all

PALE, I was referring to the International Organization for Animal Health (OIE) - not a court as such, it is an international body so a complaint would have to take the form of a written submission. There is plenty of evidence at the various websites that could form a submission.

That would be where the media release would be useful - stating that the Australian government is continuing to (and even expanding the trade in) sending live animals to countries which, despite being signatories to OIE standards and agreements, are in clear breach of them. The Australian government has not sought sanctions, so it is left to animal advocates to do so. It could be a means of forcing some form of sanctions by the OIE (expulsion from the OIE, fines, monitoring, etc).

I'm sure that if AA has been able to find a means of pursuing the "Al Kuwait" case, the Victorian network of barristers led by Graeme McEwen would be onto it, with the help of Malcolm Caulfield. It is unlikely they would be able to discuss it unless/until something has actually happened though, so Glenys' hands are probably tied.

Nicky

Hi Nicky

Boy am ah tard! I've been very busy commenting on international animal welfare threads and alerting citizens overseas to the atrocities inflicted on Australian livestock.

Most sites I visited had already written on Australia's mulesing and live exports, however, after elaborating on live exports, I informed them of the surgical procedures and of animals' short and miserable lives whilst in captivity.

By the way, I see that pollie Matt Birney had directed questions to our Attorney General, Scissor Snips Mcginty over the Emanuel Exports case. As was expected, McGinty duckshoved them onto Lil. I would imagine her response is imminent.

That's it for now.

Cheerio

Hi all

Dickie, do you think anything might happen in political circles over there over the Emanuels affair? It would be good if enough political pressure could be brought to bear to have the appeal reinstated.

Cheers for now,
Nicky

Hi Nicky

I'm afraid not. I plan to seek advice tomorrow over the legalities of the Emanuel case. I have an "inducement" plan - not hopeful but worth a try.

Of course the regime in WA is in a mess at the moment with the huge gas explosion restricting industry's progress. Worse, they are hellbent on increasing WA's population, so there's sure to be an increase in livestock.

Of course politicians are under pressure at the moment on more pressing matters where:

the opposition is busy sniffing chairs and crusty old Ministers are seeking out participants to engage in some jolly "threesomes."

One can seek free advice from the Environmental Defenders Office, however, as the name implies, they generally offer advice on biodiversity and the impacts from "non" native species. That's a joke eh, particularly when the trogs are grooming and promoting an increase in feral animals for export - goats, camels etc. God Nicky, lock your dogs up. They'll be next!

EDO's major funding is sourced from McGinty's department.

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:CF7jySkvS78J:www.edowa.org.au/+EDO+WA&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&lr=lang_en

3321. Mr M.J. Birney to the Attorney General
I refer to the recent case heard by Magistrate Catherine Crawford involving allegations of animal cruelty by Emanuel Export Pty Ltd, and I ask :

(a) what were the allegations made about Emanuel Export Pty Ltd;

(b) what was the finding made by Magistrate Crawford;

(c) is it true that the magistrate found the defendants guilty but imposed no penalty; and

(i) if so, why not;

(d) was there a technical issue regarding this case that involves some kind of conflict between State and Commonwealth law and, if so, what was that conflict

Contd......

QoN B/F:

(e) did the Solicitor General or any other State Government officer recommend an appeal be lodged against this decision;

(f) if so, who made those recommendations and why;

(g) was an appeal lodged;

(h) was the appeal subsequently heard or withdrawn and, if so, why and on whose instructions;

(i) did the Minister for Local Government give any instructions regarding the appeal and, if so, under which section of which Act was this done;

(j) did the Minister for Local Government make any recommendation to withdraw the appeal and, if so, what were the reasons for this recommendation;

(k) if the answer to (i) or (j) is yes, did the Director General for the Department of Local Government agree with any instruction given or recommendation made by the Minister for Local Government with respect to this appeal and, if not, why not; and

(l) what further action will the Government now take regarding this matter?

Mr J.A. McGINTY replied:
The Department of Local Government and Regional Development prosecuted Emanuel Exports Pty Ltd and others over a breach of the Animal Welfare Act in November 2003.

Questions should be referred to the relevant Minister.

Slimy toad!

*I've been very busy commenting on international animal welfare threads and alerting citizens overseas to the atrocities inflicted on Australian livestock.*

Hehe, what a frigging fruitcake! First she goes out of her way
to give Australia a bad name overseas, with her claims. Next
she'll complain on some other thread, that Australia is getting
a bad name overseas!

More like time for the mental institution for this fanatical old duck :)

.

Hello Yabby. Back sprinkling your dandruff again eh?

Seems dropping your hanky hasn't worked so you've returned to us girlies for some stimulating dialogue - poor sod!

Hi all

Dickie, thanks so much for that information. Being on the other side of the country in NSW, it's very useful. Yabby, what you people fail to realize is that there are hundreds - no, thousands of people like Dickie and me, telling the world what goes on in the Australian livestock industries, and everyone who reads what we say gets a little bit wiser. That's how consumer boycotts happen.

I think it would be quite an easy matter to develop a formal submission to the OIE detailing the abuse of animals in Middle Eastern countries which are signatories to its protocols, and think about the damage that could do you people if enough of us were to do it. You can run but you can't hide.

Have you tried tailing and castrating your dogs as you do your lambs? There must be a reason why it is illegal to do it to dogs (it is brutal). It's just that you people are dealing with a corrupt and compliant RSPCA and none of you gives a toss about the suffering you inflict upon farm animals every day.

Let us know when you're going to do it to your dogs and we'll see if we can get an animal welfare inspector there for the occasion.

Nicky

*It's just that you people are dealing with a corrupt and compliant RSPCA *

Of course Nicky, the RSPCA must be corrupt, the Govt must be
corrupt, the vets must be corrupt, only a bunch of vegan
fanatics would supply unbiased and objective imformation :)

Take your hands off it Nicky!

Hi all

Dickie, we have hurt Yabby's feelings on the other thread, by telling the world what livestock producers do to their animals in Australia. So much for "world's best practice".

Thanks for that link, those photos will be useful to add to the submission I am preparing for the OIE, in which I shall be demanding why no sanctions have been imposed on these countries. Photos do not lie.

Kim (Fat) Chance visited one meatworks in Saudi Arabia and said it was as good or better than what he has seen in Australia. One? ONE? In ONE country? What a dropkick. Of course he is going to say that, he is a sheep farmer (or if he isn't, he is in the pocket of sheep farmers).
The RSPCA in WA has two live export farmers on the State Council, Des Gooding and Neville Marsh. Gooding has an old conviction for cruelty to animals too. Looks pretty corrupt to me.

Yabby, if your lambs go to the tender mercies of an Islamic bank for the meat to be "given to the poor" why not give meat processed in Australia "to the poor"? And is this ALL of the Hajj lambs we're talking about? No, I thought not.

Nor is the "Becrux" kinder than any vegan alternative. No animal should be born for no better purpose than to spend its short life being brutalized by you, then put on a tramp ship (let's not forget that the "Becrux" is the only ship that anyone ever gets to see because the rest are simply disgusting) and butchered halfway across the world. (Dickie, yes, the contents of the macerators are sprayed out over the side of the ships (those equipped with macerators. The animals put into them may or may not be dead, likewise those put over the side).

Don't breed more than you can feed, for God's sake. It's not rocket science.

As for your complaints about Tri-solfen - I looked at your link. It appears to be readily available through a veterinarian as a S4 preparation. What's your problem?

Nicky

*No animal should be born for no better
purpose than to spend its short life being brutalized by you,*

Animals are born Nicky, because their parents have sex, the most natural thing
in the world. Your very own charter states that they should live naturally.
Leave animals to their own devices, as you vegans claim should happen, they will
do exactly that. Then, when there are too many, they will die miserable deaths from
starvation, due to overpopulation. That is the reality of nature for you, which you
are trying to deny. The vegan solution means huge suffering, starvation and misery
in the animal world, something which you cannot deny, even as you wear your
feelgood blinkers.

*One? ONE? In ONE country?* I never claimed that he only visited a single one,
but stated what he found in one of the new plants just built. Kim has less of a vested
interest then you have, for its you who seek the power to close down farming as we
know it. He can at least be somewhat objective. Not so with you fanatics.

*why not give meat processed in Australia "to the poor*

Because it is part of the Hajj ritual for pilgrims going to Mecca. This year, Australia
missed out on the order, the Saudis have found cheaper supplies from Africa, China and South America. If Australian lambs go to the ME, they won’t be going as part
of the Islamic Bank order, where they all go to the same place.

*Don't breed more than you can feed,*

Sheesh, you are thick as a brick Nicky. Animals left to their own devices, act
naturally and breed by themselves. Leaving them to their own devices, is exactly
what you vegans are suggesting, to replace farming, which you detest.

As to the work that Meredith Shiel is doing, its a lot more then Trisolfen, but that
seems to have gone over your head too. Fact is that Trisolfen is still not good enough
for you vegans, banning farming altogether is your agenda

Hi all

Yabby, you are not doing the maths. You deliberately put too many animals together, they breed and that is commercial gain. It has very little to do with nature and everything to do with greed.

And Kim Chance objective? That is clear evidence why I've got degrees taking in political science and you haven't. What a pitiful observation!

But as I said on the other thread, it is pointless going over the same all ground with Yabby, so I'm not going to go there any more. It seems that there are various avenues through which this can be pursued internationally, so I'm going to spend a bit more time on that.

Nicky

*Yabby, you are not doing the maths. You deliberately put too many animals together, they breed and that is commercial gain.*

Nicky, perhaps you should go back and read Darwin's Origin of
Species, to get at least a 101 understanding of evolution theory.
You only need to start with 2, nature does the rest. Its
just a question of time. The fundamentals do not change.

*That is clear evidence why I've got degrees taking in political science and you haven't. What a pitiful observation!*

People like you need degrees dear, so that somebody will employ
you. I have been self employed virtually all my life, so don't
need to impress anybody. Shame that you never studied biology,
you might at least understand a bit more about nature.

You girls run off now and chase your international water thinggy,
it will take you a few years and keep you occupied, give you a
purpose in life. In the end you will hit a dead end, based on
the funmentals, but learn that for yourself. Meantime
you two might not post as much nonsense on OLO anymore, which
has to be a good thing! Off you go now, you go show em. grrr :)

"You only need to start with 2, nature does the rest. Its
just a question of time. The fundamentals do not change."

Yes that is true, Yabby. However, responsible animal owners have their animals spayed or castrated (under a general anaesthetic of course) so they can't breed out of control.

So what were you ranting on about when you said that our recommendations would see a rampant increase in your livestock?

Hi all

Dickie, spot on. We don't have equally rampant breeding of horses, for example, simply because people don't farm them for people to eat.

Yabby, it's not stuff to do with laws of the seas I'm working on, it's the activities of the livestock "industries" in Australia that I'm collecting evidence on for international exposure. You know - what you do and how you do it. And you've given me SO much to work with!

Cheers
Nicky

PS I will continue to visit from time to time though.

Er, Actually horses are shipped live for human consumption world wide. So are cows goats cammels and many others.
While I appluade both yourself and Nicky speaking out for animals I am convinved you Nicky have not one original thought.


Again and Again Nicky gets on here and posts like a parrot.

Sure I know its well intended but we have to deal in a commercial world. As I said with respect theres a HUGE difference between in house lawyers and Senior Qcs- but have it your way.

Gleynse was contacted by one of those lawyers but of course she has ignored that as well. That tells me a lot.

Getting back to Nicky who IMOP only came on olo after we joined as members to bag us!=

She said no to contacting the lawyers and QC looking at the WA case.

No to helping Muslim spokes persons with subs for animal welfare.

No to meeting with heads of AFIC over the years.

No to meeting with farmers to bring Muslim buyers to meet direct to block the live exporters.

- No to assisting the industry to faze out live.

Of course when we do it we are animal killers and worse.

Nicky common sense will suceed where abuse has failed.

RSPCA National and Hugh have not played it straight either IMOP.

Your all tripping over each other in a race to say- Look at me I did it!
Did bloody what is pales question?
Dragged it out?
Because EVERYBODY could have and should have accpted invations under our mou years ago.
Instead of suddenly think hey pales got the answer- but lets just go behind pale back and see if we can take the credit- Well that back fired BADLY
At the expense of the animals of course!

*We don't have equally rampant breeding of horses, for example, simply because people don't farm them for people to eat.*

Nicky, how thick are you? Go and check out what is going on in
the Australian outback. There is rampant breeding of wild horses,
wild camels, wild goats, wild dogs, you name it, they are breeding
rampantly. The fact that you don't even know about it, just
confirms your ignorance.

I do not understand why Yabby and Pale just want to abuse and insult people. Pale, it is Nicky's right not to work your way and with your people whoever they are and the same for the others that you mention. I just don't know why you are so abusive about it. Why not just do your thing? Yabby is equally abusive and that doesn't help his cause either, it makes him look like the typical male chauvinist who really has little of substance to argue with.

"Again and Again Nicky gets on here and posts like a parrot."

Come, come Pale. You are a very black pot. Can you give us a break from your repetitive MOUs and Muslims - p.l.e.a.s.e.?

Why you carry on is beyond me. There are dozens of Halal certified abattoirs in Australia which have not made any difference to the heinous live export trade.

In addition, other Western countries are expressing outrage over the Halal slaughter where these "honourable" people, who should abide the laws of the land, do not. You are supporting a sordid and medieval culture - for what purpose? Are you so naive to believe that they have any intentions of converting to Western standards behind closed doors?

http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:2Oo-nqdtAI0J:my.telegraph.co.uk/elgar1857/november_2007/halal_meat.htm+halal+abattoirs+prosecuted&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=11&gl=au&lr=lang_en

http://poobalan.com/blog/borninmalaysia/2007/07/11/cattle-slaughtered-at-parliment-by-insensitive-mps/

http://www.thelocal.se/5967/20070102/

"Go and check out what is going on in the Australian outback"

Indeed Yabby? Despite your ferocious use of 1080, shooting, trapping and bludgeoning, the bush animals flourish. You continue to corrupt nature by slaughtering anything that gets in your way and yet they multiply. Karma is alive and well.

More droughts, more lack of water and healthy soils, which you have seriously exploited for personal gain by growing non-native creatures in this arid and trashed land. Now you relish the increase of bush animals to assist in fattening your obscene profits.

However, you will reap what you have sown so bludgeon away. Time is running out for you, in an ecological and moral sense. Mother Nature is objecting to your abuses.

"The fact that you don't even know about it, just confirms your ignorance"

Touche Yabby!

Dickie
No you come off it. Preaching your higher moral ground. Accusing us of making blood money and ` slaughter houses. This is so typical of you lot.
You haven’t eve3n began to grasp the fact we run a program NOT plants. We are doing what The Minister for Trade ought to have been doing at our own cost to faze live and replace with chilled That’s how arrogant you lot are you haven’t even looked at the program. Huh give you a break. Give us a break Dickie. Animals Australia and Animal Liberation under their umbrella delayed war long ago on our organization.
Now why is that? Consider we were the only ones really doing something positive to divert live to chilled.
We kept quite for years but now we want the public the ‘know the truth’.
Don’t tell me what’s going on in regional Australia. You must be kidding.
We are well ware what’s going on and what is required to change this. Btw there are not dozens of accredited export Halal authorities either.
There are sixteen and many riddled with problems- unless you talking domestic or off shore.

You and Nicky have posted a serious of bitchy nasty anti pale posts for close on two years.
You resent the fact we work with RSPCA QLD. You resent the fact we work with Muslim Leaders. You resent the fact we try too work with farmers too.
You are both ‘tools’ (maybe with the best of intention) for PETA.
We are very young as an organisation so lets put the boot on the other foot. Give US a break from your dictating that has failed for 20 years and allow us to work for animals our own way.

*Karma is alive and well. *

Nothing to do with Karma lol, just accept the laws of nature, which
was my original point, something that Nicky denied. So horses don't
breed in the outback as she claimed?

*Mother Nature is objecting to your abuses.*

Mother nature is acting just like we expect, perhaps you should
go back to Darwin's Origin of Species and learn about evolution
theory for yourself, something which you clearly don't understand.

*Yabby is equally abusive and that doesn't help his cause either, it makes him look like the typical male chauvinist who really has little of substance to argue with.*

Alexandra, Yabby gives back what is dished out, but of course your
bias does not seem to matter to you. Nobody throws more insults
on the animal welfare threads then Dickie, but you ignore all that,
as I would expect.

I can sink to anybody's level lol, including to posters on here.

Meantime, the intellectual points of my arguments clearly go above
your head, as you choose to follow feelgood emotional reactions.
A course in emotional intelligence, might do you some good.

Pale

Your MOUs with the Muslims are an abject failure. Why don't your Muslim friends have influence over governments in their birth countries - the barbarians? Have they sent them OUR footage on the atrocities committed on OUR animals in THEIR abattoirs? If so, what legislative measures have they implemented to prevent these atrocities occurring? Have these "compassionate" Australian Muslims asked these governments to cease importing animals from Australia?

They smile at you behind their veils Pale. I say dump 'em girl.

Dickie - "Would that be a "Yes" or a "No" Cowboy?”

Your continual reference to Australian Cattlemen as cowboys is wrong. Cowboys are found in the U.S.A., and Canada, Vaqueros in Argentina and Stockmen in Australia. But then you never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

Dickie – “When will you be loading these lovely ewes and lambs on the ships of death? I'll come down to Freo to bid them cheerio and what do you look like?”

Lambs and ewes to the Middle East. Things must have changed. In my day the lambs went to Perth for local consumption and ewes were kept as breeding stock. Only wethers were sent to the Middle East.

Dickie – “I've been very busy commenting on international animal welfare threads and alerting citizens overseas to the atrocities inflicted on Australian livestock.”

I would imagine that the readers of your biased unsubstantiated ramblings will be absolutely riveted by what you have to say.

Nicky – “Yabby, what you people fail to realize is that there are hundreds - no, thousands of people like Dickie and me, telling the world what goes on in the Australian livestock industries, and everyone who reads what we say gets a little bit wiser.”

Thousands of you out of a population of 23 million! You’re wrong when you say “that everyone who reads what we say gets a little bit wiser.” Apart from the very small minority who might think you are telling the truth, the majority would silently just laugh at what you say.

Unfortunately you two see yourselves as “crusaders” for animal rights. In fact if you were dinkum, you would see that you do animal rights a great disservice by the way you carry on, on forums like this. People who are genuine about the good they do are not splashing their names all over forums around the world and big noting themselves like you two do and criticising people who disagree with you surreal philosophies and your agenda. That’s what makes the dickie and nicky road show a laughing stock.

Dickey
It just so happens they actually passed a motion to go to congress to lobby against live exports at the last meeting. That more than George Pell has done.Dont worry Dickie we have had our beef ups over the years .
Then we get on with it.

Hugh causing lots of problems without a clue what he was doing. Mind you OMOP hes just a monkey for the Government.

Well if he keeps playing games outside his areas he might just get himself burnt badly.
He might end up with more than pretend blood on his shirt. Come on Dicky the mans had over 20 years to do something? Now hes heading the Handle with care with NO Objection from the others. Think really hard about what I am saying??
I have the honour of speaking with you which I really appreciated. I know your not silly.
WHY are the others not screaming from the roof tops about Hugh being in charge?
Dickey myopinion is correct regarding his comment of attacking each other farmers andMuslims.
It is counter productive to the animals and I am just as guilty of replying to nicky in anger.
Its just been so hard on pale being black listed. If you dont know anything else. please know we are doing what we feel is the only way to stop live exports.
I would also like to thank you for your work for animals. If you see our favouite girl around Lyn White pls give her our blessings.
Goodnight.

myopinion, said=

Apart from the very small minority who might think you are telling the truth, the majority would silently just laugh at what you say.

pale comments.

I think most people would understand the utter frustration of having seen far too much cruelty without anything happening depite the ferrorts of many TBO.
To work within Animal Welfare industry you must be unselfish.

To see what you see on a daily basis and not have the power to stop it.

To feel the utter injustise and watch the low life Government reps bend to the call of the political donations .


While I stand alone in a different corner for the same reasons I totally understand why these girls loose it from time to time.

How you learn to hate people the more you see.

How many nights can people lay awake being haunted by what they know and see.

I hate all cruel people be they in ME or here. Now lets face it shall we Australia sends them there. So that makes US the guilty ones.

To say there is nothing wrong with this barbaric trade shows you have no morals what so ever.

It also shows you have no concern as to raw materials leaving a country 'before value adding.

That makes you just as stupid as our Goverment- who btw have just given another 8 to 12 million to support this cruelty. SHAME ON TONY BURKE and Kevin Rudd.

Its a total discrace just like anybody who doesnt get off their arse to find alternatives.

Come on farmers take some leadership and get yourselves on a plane to ME to deal direct and reopen plants.

PALE in regard to my comment "Apart from the very small minority who might think you are telling the truth, the majority would silently just laugh at what you say."

This was aimed squarely at the nicky and dickie road show. As someone who has managed people on two continents, I can assure you that you will get more from people in ideas and effort by offering encouragement, than you ever will by being obnoxious, arrogant and trying to force you will on people. The latter is the style of the nicky and dickie road show.

Approximately 20 years ago a wealthy businessman bought a former abattoir in W.A. His intention was to turn it into a small abattoir, processing plant and cannery for Halal mutton and beef, predominantly mutton. After approaching the then State Government, which gave verbal approval he then approached the Malaysian and Singaporean governments. Representatives from both governments looked at the plan and gave their approval and commitment. This abattoir and cannery would have sold most of it’s product into Malaysia and the rest into Singapore. It would have employed approximately 45 people full time and would have helped local farmers who were then battling high interest rates from the Hawke/Keating era.

This businessman applied for the approval through the local shire, but due to some petty jealousy’s amongst some of the councillors the planning approval was knocked back. An appeal to the Minister for Local Government didn’t get passed as the Minister didn’t want to overturn the Shire Council’s decision.

This would have probably been the first Halal abattoir in W.A. if it had gone ahead. This businessman saw the long term need to value add to stock. This is fact and not hearsay as I knew this businessman very well.

As a former farmer I am not against the live export trade but I am against cruelty to animals. A government will not stop the live export trade because of its value to the economy. Unless alternatives are found, the live export trade will continue. That I can assure you.

"I would imagine that the readers of your biased unsubstantiated ramblings will be absolutely riveted by what you have to say."

Yes indeed myopinion and I was deeply humbled to find that citizens all over the world have commented and expressed their horror at Australia's grotesque treatment of its animals. It was quite a revelation to find these comments from citizens in:

Switzerland, Belgium, Spain, Canada, Ireland, Britain, Netherlands, France, Hungary, Poland, Portugal, Greece, Columbia, Germany, Uruguay, Japan, Romania, Bosnia, Argentina, Israel and so on.

How strange that these people had similar "biased, unsubstantiated ramblings" just like mine. Of course many have witnessed the indisputable evidence - the facts on the myriad of footage which portrays the ugly, violent truth and this footage has been sent on by recipients around the planet.

By the way, how did you enjoy the footage I provided on this thread? Strange that you, Yabby and the cowboy fail repeatedly to comment when there is overwhelming evidence which conflicts with your own unsubstantiated rubbish.

You of course endeavour to distract the readers from the truth. How very condescending. Do you, with your brutal and perverted mentality, actually believe anyone would accept your diabolical swill?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1_BOAF7qvk

AS POSTED ON ANOTHER THREAD.

Nicky –“The solution is not to send them animals, and it not up to anyone to offer farmers alternatives. They should be able to do business in line with community values and expectations, but, as with their "husbandry" techniques, they will have to be dragged, kicking and screaming to change. And that may have to happen through international pressure.”

Well the fanatic has spoken again. Statements like what is above really shows how stupid and uneducated you are when it comes to knowing anything about farming. You and your other brainless half dickie continue to criticise and verbally abuse farming and farmers in this country. Why don’t you go and do it to their faces since you both think you’re so brave. As I said once before “the faceless cowards of the internet.”

You obviously don’t understand anything about how the economy works, what international trade or agreements mean. You are living in dream land if you think that any government in this country, be it Labour or Coalition, are going to stop the live export trade unless there is a viable alternative. The prejudices and ranting of you two will have no effect on their decision. Think of what comes from farming: wool, mutton, beef, pork, vegetables, diary products, fruit, wheat, sunflower, oats, cotton etc., etc. Now think of all the offshoot products that come from each of the above and then work out what that is worth to the economy and to the value of exports. You two have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. It’s your little ‘claim to fame’, running around the internet big naming yourselves and writing absolute nonsensical gibberish because you’re gullible.

As for your pathetic threat “they will have to be dragged, kicking and screaming to change. And that may have to happen through international pressure.”

Nicky you have stated that your cousin is a psychiatrist in Melbourne and who is fascinated by delusions, particularly those to do with self-aggrandizement.
You should book yourself in for an appointment, and take dickie, you might get a group discount.

*Strange that you, Yabby and the cowboy fail repeatedly to comment when there is overwhelming evidence which conflicts with your own unsubstantiated rubbish.*

Hehe, I have commented for about two years now about your so
called "evidence". Its called "cause based marketing". Take
isolated incidents and blow them up as being mainstream. Then
try to shock people. The Catholics do it all the time with abortion,
perhaps that is where you learnt it.

The truth be known, you are doing your best to damage Australia's
reputation, as your true agenda is that livestock farmers give up
livestock farming, as you have both freely admitted.

Nicky and dickie have refused to answer this question. Of course they continue to jump from thread to thread espousing their simplistic and gullible view of Australia. The self titled ‘crusaders’ of animal liberation who believe that their opinions and only other opinions that agree with them on OLO is all that matters. They both continue to dodge any questions that they have either deemed for the ‘too hard basket’ or they don’t have an answer for. Nicky who refuses to have any debate or discussion with me, it is actually a blessing in disguise. However when you make claims to knowing of better ways to control feral pests in Australia, one would think that you would want to then back it up with some evidence or ideas instead of being like a politician and sprouting off but not producing anything.

I am still waiting for the answer to this question from nicky, and dickie (the other half of the tag team) can give her answer as well. Birds of a feather do flock together.

This is the question:

I determined nicky, that you grudgingly agree that control methods for the control of rabbits, foxes and feral cats should be used. If you are not agreeable to steel-jawed traps, 1080, strychnine, shooting and the like being used as a control method, what control methods do you suggest should be used for the control of foxes, feral cats and dogs?

My opinion,
I assume you mean me to be the other half of the tag team. Tar, for that.
Thank you for the opportunity to respond to your very sensible question.
It is good to see OLO being used in such a manner.
We have done some leg work on baits quite some time ago. A farmer from Victoria sent us some fascinating information so we decided to chase up on it (As much as time would allow)
My opinion I would like to see genetic saffron introduced instead of 1080.
Apparently these old farmers used it for many years to bait boxes.
You just plant some saffron in the meat. It’s a painless death because its renders its victims to sleep first to an unconscious state where they bleed to death internally.
Now I know that’s expensive however I am sure they could find a genetic equal’ IF’ they wanted to. BUT do they want to? NO Too much vetted interests with the company OF COURSE.

That’s something Dickie I feel would be smart enough to get her teeth into with DPI and CSIRO. Did we ask AA to help and inform them about this? Yup. Did we also inform AA we had Malaysian delegates showing interest in building Gas plants for larger animals? Yup. Did they show any interest in any of this? You guessed it NO.

Nicky you just keep right onto your role towards bagging us. Oh yeh those cruel people at pale talking to farmers Muslims and worst of all work in conjunction with RSPCA QLD. Sin above all sins!

Well Nicky I will work with the devil himself to help animals.

Get out and reopen plants if you really want to make a difference instead of abusing farmers.

Regarding the other topic I would appreciate it if you clicked here for my answer

http://consciousevolution.com/onshu/view_signatures.php

I would like to say we had our own independent investigation.
Two years of an eye witness. I ammused myself no end also knowing it was being paid for by the Australian Federal Government;)

Shows you can’t trust anybody

http://www.livexports.com/eyewitness.html

There are of course more questions which NicknDick don't want to,
or cannot answer.

If farmers gave up livestock farming, as they want to happen,
what would happen?

http://dieoff.org/page80.htm

tells you what would happen, as it did on St Matthew Island, when
they released 29 deer. Without predators, they built up to
6000 very quickly, then all but about 50 died of starvation!

So the future of any herbivores would be clear, die of starvation
or get ripped to bits alive by predators. Ah, the joys of nature,
which they think is the better option for the animals.

Fact is, my animals are far better off, then those left to nature.
The vegans are just too thick to understand nature in the first
place. Its all about quaint philosophies, which don't deal with
reality, just like the Catholics.

Hi all

Yabby, great (old) study. They put a population of reindeer on an island (INTERFERING with nature and for no apparent purpose), forget to monitor them, let them starve and go over a shoot a whole lot of them. Certain parallels with Australian farmers really. Breed more animals than nature would do in their normal state (without any human interference; there are over-populations now because of farming interventions) and massacre what you don't want, one way or another.

PALE, I have seen your petition, many times (sigh). What exactly have you done with it? Unsuspecting members of the public in many countries appear to be putting their names to something that, so far as we know, has gone nowhere. I have told you about electronic petitions before, but of course you won't listen. And if that one short (hearsay) letter is the best your "investigator" could do in two years, let's say I'd rather put my faith in Lyn White and her co-investigators from CIWF and PETA, for obvious reasons.

What exactly was the wording of this "motion" and to what "congress" was it taken? Was it passed?

I believe that you are sincere in your belief that your project is the solution but you must admit that it appears to have made little impact, particularly in comparison with the investigations of Animals Australia.

Where control measures are used, clearly once an animal has been declared a "pest" or "feral", it seems to matter little how cruel the methods used are. It should be obvious that a barbiturate component in any form of baiting should be mandatory so that the animal effectively is unconscious when it dies from the effects of the bait. But Dickie is wiser on science than I am.

Nicky

*They put a population of reindeer on an island (INTERFERING with nature and for no apparent purpose), forget to monitor them, let them starve and go over a shoot a whole lot of them.*

No Nicky, nature let them starve, the deer could have swum there,
thats how species moved around. Over time, sea levels drop and rise,
some species walked.

If you want to call it interefering with nature, then you and Dickie
are here, because nature was interfered with. So what are you doing
here?

Fact is, there are some realities of the past, that we have to
accept and deal with as best we can. Fact is that if this land
were abandoned tomorrow (I did not clear it) some herbivore species
would move in, eat the grass, multiply and starve to death when
there are too many, unless predators rip em to bits. Stop trying
to deny reality!

That is exactly why veganism is little more then a feelgood philosophy,
for those who don't understand biology.

Nicky
I have explained before I am not at liberty to post confidential privy biz information involves others. HOWEVER accept the which invitation and sign a non discloser and ask away.

The petition was posted in support of Dickie re the comment of
Myopinion. That ought to have beeen clear.
Its a world wide petition giving people an opportunity to post their thoughts on the live animal trade.

Why on earth wouldn’t you be pleased to see any petition to support less cruelty to animals? You’re a strange one Nicky.

The comment about Dickie being bright enough, to chase up on, saffron- I can see in hindsight I could have been more considerate of your feelings.

No Nicky that is not what I meant and I am sorry you have taken it that way.

It’s just that I have spoken with Dickie in the past when she was kind enough to call our office. So it goes without saying I sort of relate to her a bit more I guess.

I have always said their is nothing wrong with a person bar their intention.

Regarding the person employed in ME for two years couldn’t get a more reliable witness.

This isn’t some sort of competition while these poor animals suffer.

You also know we support Lyn. IMOP is the real problem is you all follow like a cult or sheep the leader whose been their for over twenty years.
It requires new leadership. There is a big personality problem throughout animal welfare. It comes from the top and it’s a rotten example. IMOP if you worked 'without that influence' you could go a long way.

BUT you’re stuck with this PETA mind set.

Try to understand the problems "must be solved within the industry."

That means we need animal lovers involved in the meat trade.

Sorry but that’s the answer. You can’t make people care BUT you CAN put people in charge who Do.

There’s your answer to stop cruelty to farm animals.

Hi again all

Yabby, I'm not going to read the old study again to argue the toss, I made my point/s. I have given up going over the same old ground with you.

PALE, that is your opinion of Animals Australia, and I assume you mean Glenys Oojges. She may well say the same about you. That is your opinion and you are of course free to express it, but so far as I know, Glenys has excellent credibility in the animal advocacy community. I've read some of her scientific papers and they were excellent, nor have I generally been able to fault her campaign management. There are some things that we all could do better, but simply because she has chosen not to adopt PALE's philosophy is no reason to demand that she be removed, nor is she likely to be. I believe she has a strong following.

I simply believe that a petition has to be suitable for the purpose - in fact, it has to HAVE a purpose. That means if should be in a form in which it will be accepted by the government/s to whom it is directed. Government/s rarely accept electronic petitions (but we have been down this road before).

I do support PETA's objectives, and I support Animal Liberation's as well, having spent time with Mark Pearson, but that has nothing to do with a lack of discernment; I just happen to agree with their philosophies. Conversely, I rarely agree with Hugh Wirth(less), but I really don't think your threats will bother him too much.

I'm going to pass on your "trade secrets" too. I'd be very surprised if there's anything much worth signing non-disclosure agreements over.

Nicky

Hi Nicky

Have a look at the other thread where myopinion's just talked my glass eye to sleep.

Gawd....how many grams of Zoloff did he take this time?

Now he's suffering another manic episode!

Anyhow (thankfully) I'll be off the radar for a day or so to complete the final drafts of my correspondence.

Toodle pip.

Cheers, Dickie. I think he needs something a bit stronger than Zoloft - one of the anti-psychotics, perhaps like Lithium.

And I'm doing a bit of the same. Catch up soon,
Nicky

I simply believe that a petition has to be suitable for the purpose - in fact, it has to HAVE a purpose.

Nicky It was prepaired by a member of Parliment. Good enough for you?

Straight away I contacted Glenyse and sent it down to her. She said she didnt know they had brought out electronic petitions but she didnt belive in petitions anyway. So she wasnt interested.
However when I called to leave a message if she wasnt going to do it we would.
Someone answered the phone late on Sunday evening- It was Lyn and she had just started with AA.
Straight away I could tell the difference. The polite manner the willingness to discuss Animal Welfare issues.
She as promised called back a week later to inform us Glenyse had agreed to run a petition. Now Of course Glenyse mentioned the petitions world wide all the time.
Also the uni lawyers groups and many others things they got the idea from pale off.
( Which includeds FYI Nicky the investigations and evidence.)

The court case in a lessor scale. Crickey Nicky dont forget she told us in the begining that AA did NOT do live exports and that it was too political.She said ring green peace or your nearset Animal Liberation group.
( Knowing all the time they work under her umbrella.)

I think Gleynse has an amazing amount of knowledge Nicky and we all need her involved BUT her personality is much like yours and THATS why in twenty years Animal Welfare is riddled with inta fighting.

Frankly its a discrace. I say put Lyn and Mark Pearson in charge.

But put them there for that purpose. If they dont make a difference then keep going until you find someone with a decent personality and people skills because shes got none.

btw Many people say the same thing that AA needs a new leader.
Shes been in that position over twenty years Nicky.
Time for a change IMOP. I think that is true of most organisations TBO

Nicky said

Simply because she has chosen not to adopt Pale’s philosophy is no reason to demand that she be removed, nor is she likely to be.

Pale Comments
Of course that is no reason and I am not demanding anything.

However if AA are against Pales philosophy then that needs to be closely examined and is a different matter.

After all pale is saying lets 'do more' than demand the Government reopen abattoirs to faze out live exports.

Let’s work with farmers and Muslims and others to 'ensure' that changes happen. However to YOU AND PETA AND AA thats a Sin! Interesting.



The counter argument ALSO must be should AA as the peak leaders HAVE the 'right' to black list our organization especially given we work in conjunction with RSPCA Qld on live exports.

It’s an interesting question at law if nothing else and has been discussed by Government heads more than once.

It’s sort of like Rudd saying he won’t have anything to do with one particular group.

Nicky said
I believe she has a big following.
Pale comments
Yes she does but following isn’t what people should do. She should inform her members of our programe.

"Let them makeup their own minds."! Not dictate and say if you talk to pale your off our members list.

After all I have it in writing the Handle with Care intend to seek meetings with the very same people we have held MOUs with for years.

We invited them ALL to join us many times as a matter of record.

Nicky it would seem they ALL agree PALES lead the way wouldn’t it.

BUT Old Hugh and G want the credit for our forward thinking.

IF that wouldn’t stuff up the program we wouldn’t mind BUT its HAS caused huge problems.

That DOESNT help the animals

It damages them.

Also what did you mean in your posts when you said

" I am tired of PETA and AA little Agendas.

fyi So are we.

*I made my point/s. I have given up going over the same old ground with you.*

Nicky you have made your points, but they do not disprove my
points of reason about nature.

As you have no answer to my points, of course you will say nothing,
for your ego would not admit that you are wrong and that
the core of your philosophy is flawed and simply about how
you feel, not the realities of nature.

Fair enough. The Catholics take the same approach, just wish
reality away, as you do.

Hi all

PALE, it is not up to Glenys Oojges, Animals Australia or anyone else to tell people about what you do, that is up to you to do. Nor have I described what you do as a "sin", I have simply said I do not want to be part of it, for a number of reasons. Animals Australia has obviously decided the same and that is their right too. There is no evidence to suggest that anyone has "blacklisted" PALE, or voiced any like criticism of the RSPCA - just what do you mean by "blacklisting"? Animals Australia clearly has a working relationship with the RSPCA now, which rather defeats your argument. The Handle with Care groups also have the right to seek discussions with whomever they choose; they do not need your permission.

The following is completely incomprehensible:-

"Glenyse had agreed to run a petition. Now Of course Glenyse mentioned the petitions world wide all the time.
Also the uni lawyers groups and many others things they got the idea from pale off.
( Which includeds FYI Nicky the investigations and evidence.)"

Was your petition ever PRESENTED to (and accepted by) Parliament? I thought not. Nor, I suggest, are you really in a position to criticize the "personalities" of others; we are not the people threatening legal action at every opportunity and abusing everyone who disagrees with us. Have you ever thought that THOSE are the sorts of reasons why people won't work with you? THAT is what harms the animal advocacy movement, not the activities of (or the people in) the other groups.

I'd stake our credibility against yours any day.

The post "I am tired of PETA and AA and their agendas" I quoted directly from a post of yours; it was certainly not my statement.

Nicky

Nicky said

There is no evidence to suggest that anyone has "blacklisted" PALE,
pale questions.
Nicky are you sure about that? If so why? Considering you claim to have no membership or contact with PETA and AA.

N
Was your petition ever PRESENTED to (and accepted by) Parliament?
P
Yup sure was.
N
Nor, I suggest, are you really in a position to criticize the "personalities" of others;

pale- Again Nicky how do you claim to know so much about AA or PALE.?
I put it to you that you ARE involved with a group and you came into OLO in the first place to discredit pale.

N
"we" are not the people threatening legal" action at every opportunity and abusing everyone who disagrees with us.

P
Er, Nicky who is WE.? I think you just shot yourself in the foot and shown yourself to be dishonest.

Also Nicky it wasnt US who threatend legal action against Animals Australia.
It was Animals Australia who threatended legal action against pale. Why? Because we repeated something Yabby said.

That is when I spoke with their inhouse lawyer.
N
THAT is what harms the animal advocacy movement, not the activities of (or the people in) the other groups.

P Nicky you are the only one doing that.

You guys have a problem with us because we have out own opinions and programes. We are not into yes sir no sir three bags full sir.

N
I'd stake our credibility against yours any day.
P

'OUR' Theres that word again 'Ours'- 'We'. Why do you tell yabby and the others fibs claiming your not a member or involved with AA and PETA. Its clearly untrue.
N
The post "I am tired of PETA ...

P Oh Ok, I must have been thinking out loud. So where are your hero`s Nicky.

Why not ask Igred Hugh and your buddy to come on OLO and debate us on live exports.

Speaking of chickens!

1. PALE, I am not a member of any animal advocacy group. I used the term "we" figuratively because we have a commonality of philosophy which is not shared by PALE. That does not mean that I have not had communications with them, however, and I never claimed otherwise.

2. Can you give me the Hansard reference/link for the day on which your petition was presented in Parliament please? (And I don't mean Animals Australia's petition, presented by Andrew Bartlett)

3. I have no information on what your definition of "blacklisting" is so I have no idea what form your notion of being "blacklisted" took. But it would be unlikely to have had anything to do with any association with the RSPCA, and everything to do with how you behave to people

4. If you published something that was clearly intended to be confidential, then it is likely that someone will do something about legal action against you, and I'd be prepared to bet that it wasn't the first time you have done something like that for personal gain

5. I know enough about PALE from the expressions of delusion, paranoia and threats of legal action just targetted at me - and that doesn't include all the others. They're not hard to find, there are so many of them. That's the personality problem, it is not with any of the other groups,who, from what I can tell, seem to be able to interact with each other coherently and professionally.

6. That is how you are doing more damage to the animal welfare movement, with your rantings, than anyone else in Australia. Think about it.

7. If you want any of these people to enter debates with you you should stop libelling them on these threads and ask them nicely.

Nicky

Nicky to PALE – “That is how you are doing more damage to the animal welfare movement, with your rantings, than anyone else in Australia. Think about it.”

nicky to PALE again – “If you want any of these people to enter debates with you you should stop libelling them on these threads and ask them nicely.”

Nicky you would have to be one of the biggest hypocrites that ever walked the earth. How you can have the gall to lecture anyone on this forum about their decorum is beyond the pale (no pun intended).

How much damage do you think you and the other one, dickie, are doing to animal welfare? You’re too conceited to admit it, so I’ll tell you. It’s a lot!

Nicky - “If you want any of these people to enter debates with you, ask them nicely.”

You really are pathetic! You should have been a politician since lying comes so easily to you. On a number of threads all I have seen of you or dickies comments is a contemptible disregard of anyone else’s opinion that disagrees with yours. You then have the temerity to lecture someone else. One word for you; HYPOCRITE!

2000 to 2007 Australia (DAFF): Four hundred and fourteen thousand (414,000) animals succumbing to the inhumane incarceration on the ships of death and dumped overboard whilst small children die from starvation, reduced to skin and bone and slipping into comas from malnutrition whilst their parents kill and are killed for a morsel of sustenance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1_BOAF7qvk

Hi all

How interesting it is to see that the likes of myopinion come out in support of PALE. It is not the animal welfare movement which we are damaging, it is the abhorrent, morally repugnant practices of farmers who brutalize animals (in one way or another). And we keep on keeping on, and we are media and technologically savvy enough to be good at it, too.

Nicky

Nicky

Pales response to Nicky’s comments posted 14th June 2008
1* we have a commonality of philosophy which is not shared by PALE*.

Err, Nicky and what would that be, vegetarians perhaps? Please reply by a simple YES or NO

2*Can you give me the Hansard reference/link*
, So glad you brought that up. Yes Nicky, it was lodged by Andrew Bartlett. However it would be interesting if it was just added to others.. Mind you I couldn’t care less – but as you raised it .

3.*I have no information on what your definition of "blacklisting"*

Should you have? What are you Nicky the Animal Welfare police. So you want to know what evidence we have. May I ask why this is of such great interest ?

4.* If you published something that was clearly intended to be confidential,*

Nope Nicky, was no big secret. We just said we didn’t fund raise as others do.

5*I know enough about PALE from the expressions of delusion, paranoia and threats of*

Nicky, I cant work out if your being paid or your just unbalanced. IMOP I think you’re a unpaid volunteer sent into OLO to Gag pale.

You protest that another animal welfare group would ‘dare break the ranks’ and say hey everybody this isn’t working.

We say to work with Muslims and with farmers “instead of against them.”



7.* If you want any of these people to enter debates with you you should stop libeling*
May I take it you posted that on Authority Nicky?

Tell you what why don’t we do it like this in all fairness to you.
Why don’t you WSPA in all your friends ears to come in and debate me on live exports and our work to ensure its fazed out.

"Please ask Ingrid and Gleynse."

Nicky Dickie doesnt drag AA into all her posts Why do you.? They can appreciate it surley. Poor Lyn. Why are you doing this to her. Your destroying all her hard work. Shame on You

Fair dinkim are you spraying those lettuce leaves with something:)

*And we keep on keeping on, and we are media and technologically savvy enough to be good at it, too.*

Err Nicky, you mean like the 142 people who turned up at your
great big demonstration? That after 20 something years of you
protesting? Time to turn to plan b lol, for plan a has
been a spectacular failure for years now :)

Hehe, what a bunch of fanatical fruitcakes.

PALE:

1. Where is the Hansard link? Even the date would do.

2. My dietary preferences are none of your business

3. Read some of your OWN POSTS, for God's sake. You must have significant memory loss about what you post here

4. If you don't raise funds, why do you have a Paypal link on the website to which you endlessly direct us all?

5. Think what you like, it is of no interest to me

6. Cannot imagine what this is supposed to mean:
"You protest that another animal welfare group would ‘dare break the ranks’ and say hey everybody this isn’t working". Who CARES?

7. Whose authority?

8. Ask them yourself. It is you who takes every opportunity to try and drag Animals Australia, for whom Lyn White is Communications Director, through the dirt, not I.

9. Try not to be so stupid.

Nicky

Yabby - "Err Nicky, you mean like the 142 people who turned up at your
great big demonstration?"

HAHAHA! Tell us more about this huge demonstration Yabby, it sounds like a corker.

Oh, those details are all in the OLO archives somewhere. Last
November, I read on the AA website, about a "National Day of
Protest" or whatever they called it, about the live trade. I
never heard a thing about it in the press, so I asked Nicky how
many went. She said 142, or it could have been 146. I nearly
fell off my chair lol.

Now what is happening is that a small band are virtually blackmailing
stores into making statments against mulesing, by threatening their
brands. Even those who don't sell wool!

Watch the propaganda machine, that is how they operate.

Next they tell us, as to how many stores won't buy wool from mulesed
sheep. Yet when Elders held an auction last week of 1600 bales
of wool from non mulesed sheep, there was little actual interest
in the marketplace.

So what it comes down to is a small fanatical group, making a huge
racket, trying to use the internet etc, to promote their propaganda.

All Dickie's efforts to blacken Australia's name with her video
have landed up causing an Islam/anti Islam argument, nothing
to do with Australia at all!

Fact is, that if you want to improve slaughter methods in the ME,
so install some proper eequipment there, its not rocket science.

Fact is, if you really don't want sheep to go on boats, then have
a competitive meat industry in WA, which is not the case now.

But these people so hate farmers, they would rather try to send
farmers broke, so they continue with their propganda and never let
truth get in the way of their stories.

No No Nicky
Not so fast to change the subject. Pls have the manners to reply as you raised the above issues.=

Nicky said
1* we have a commonality of philosophy which is not shared by PALE*.
Pale asks
What would that be, vegetarians perhaps? Please reply by a simple YES or NO
Nicky said
3.*I have no information on what your definition of "blacklisting"*
pale asks
Should you have? What are you Nicky the Animal Welfare police. So you want to know what evidence we have. May I ask why this is of such great interest ?
Nick said
7.* If you want any of these people to enter debates with you you should stop libeling*
May I take it you posted that on Authority Nicky?

Nick said =

If you don't raise funds, why do you have a Paypal link on the website to which you endlessly direct us all?

pale replies
I will answer that question as you posted not long ago about the personyou claimed sold house and moved to hide from us - or words to that effect.
I put it to you Nicky that you are well aware that a person acting as a volunteer set up that petition.
The fact is ( as I suspect you are aware) that pale has no control over that site what so ever.

That is despite having been screwed for two hundred dollars PER MONTH to keep it up.
We choose to keep it up because its such a good petition.

The lady that hosts the site is in USA and REFUSES to give us our own pass words or details despite the fact we own the name pale which is a registered NFP organisation.

So in other words we have got ZERO.





So are you saying Andrew did lodge them under PALE?

Interesting - but does it matter. You see Nicky unlike yourself we are not trouble makers. I am well aware of the Germann connection- speaking of petitions and online fund raising.

However we prefer to focuss on the animals- unlike you.

Hi all

Yabby, you typically failed to mention that 140-odd people gathered was in one suburb of one regional town. But you would, of course.

And haven't we, the Australian taxpayers, already paid for slaughtering equipment in the Middle East which, it has been proven, is never used?

PALE
1. I did reply. Once again, my dietary preferences are none of your business

2. You're telling the story about the petition, not I. I asked you to either post the Hansard link for the PALE (not Animals Australia) petition being tabled - or even the date - but you appear to be unable to do so. So I am forced to conclude that the only petition that has been tabled is the Animals Australia one, which has been tabled several times by Andrew Bartlett (not a PALE one, unless you can provide the information asked for)

3. I have absolutely no idea what volunteer you are talking about. If someone else was responsible for that petition and PALE has nothing to do with it, should you be claiming the credit for it and referring the world at large to it?

4. If you do in fact own the petition and are paying for its hosting, why has your "team of lawyers" (not to mention the QC) not been able to challenge these circumstances under international private law?

5. I am not particularly interested in the "blacklisting" issue - it is simply that you keep raising it as part of your efforts to discredit Animals Australia

6. The Paypal link does not only appear on the petition site, it also appears on the main PALE website. (At least it does not appear on the HKM website!). That rather shoots down any claims that you do not raise funds. The question is, what do you do with them?

7. I have no idea what the German connection is - except that I know Animals Angels is a German group. Did they refuse to work with you too?

Nicky

"All Dickie's efforts to blacken Australia's name with her video
have landed up causing an Islam/anti Islam argument, nothing
to do with Australia at all!"

Pathetic try Yabby and it is not "my" video and oh boy have you got a sweat up.

You ain't seen nuthin' yet and I remind you it's the degenerates in Australia who send defenceless live animals to the Middle East and South East Asia.

Shortly I will be alerting posters to Australia's penchant for vivisection - 6 million animals in 2004, tortured and tormented in the most unimaginable way and the majority of vivisections were performed for?

You guessed it. The agricultural industry!

Taxpayers money is being spent on a cabal of gluttonous, sadistic thugs whose conceit and arrogance borders on madness. Just have a look at the lunatics on this thread.

And more Karmic forces working against this industry as I see pirates fired shots at the live export thugs on the MV Heresford this week and put it out of action. Dear me, what a tragedy.

dickie - "whose conceit and arrogance borders on madness. Just have a look at the lunatics on this thread."

What a very true description of yourself and nicky. You missed a few things out of the description of yourselves: gullible, naive, fanatical, extremist, liars, pathetic, uninformative, brash, childish and last but not least, LOSERS!

Dickie
Don’t worry too much about the Anti Islamic Beef up overseas. Pls allow me to tell you why. Because when push comes to shove these are very clever biz people who can see the writing on the wall.

Our naive useless short sighted self serving gutless Government in Australia has always taken the easy road along with the political donations and jumps at the slightest wish of overseas.

I have also told you it is the Muslims themselves that will change things eventually... It’s a matter of record according to Ikebal that AFIC leaders REJECT the cruelty of live exports and intend to lobby AGAINST it.

It is also true that Hugh Wirths Handle with Care IMOP has caused enormous problems and possibly put these movements at risk.

I am just wondering what type of snake in the grass would behave in such a manner, or should I say ‘snakes’. Gee I wonder if Hughs Government pay check has something to do with it. They are so friendly with Elders and other low life live shipping agents it makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.

He may be the President of WSPA but he’s also still the President of Victoria RSPCA. It was Bidder Jones of RSPCA who put in writing- Dear pale thanks very much for your last invitation to meet with AFIC leaders to work under your Animal Welfare MOU.

However we reject that invitation because the Handle with Care Colatation has decided to seek a meeting without pale.

We find that interesting. Now why wouldn’t they want the benefit of our lawyer’s years of working close with these people?

Sure they can do as they wish. "SO LONG as it can’t be proven that information was gained by a private biz proposal to a State Government."

In other words did RSPCA National act on information gained by a private biz proposal to a Government?
Ar, now there’s the real question.

third time=

Nicky said
* we* have a commonality of philosophy which is not shared by PALE*.
Pale asks
Who is *WE* Nicky
what would that be, vegetarians perhaps? Please reply by a simple YES or NO

As for the petition pale had to talk Glenyse into having one.


3.* I have absolutely no idea what volunteer you are talking about.*

Err, Nicky it was yourself who raised the person hiding from us so I think you are being dishonest.

*If someone else was responsible ....

Nicky actually the last time I checked it was unlawful to use the name of someone else’s NFP organization. Umm, I think its called fraud. - Or at very least misrepresentation.

Also it paints a picture rather clearly of events from day one of pales birth.
Rather interesting actually.
1 People attending meetings as and taking everybody’s names.

Step 2 was to contact them and tell them NOT to join pale but to join= you guess Nicky??

Step 3 an interesting person that you admitted knowing was in hiding from us.

*. If you do in fact own the petition ....

Nicky I am delighted with the pile of evidence we have tripped over.

*5. I am not particularly interested in the "blacklisting" issue - it is simply that you keep raising it as part of your efforts to discredit Animals Australia

Now now Nicky, don’t go saying things that could land you in court you silly girl
I only asked you who WE was- I guess I got my answer after all. Tar

6.* That rather shoots down any claims that you do not raise funds. The question is, what do you do with them?
Nicky I told you ZERO we pay ourselves and DON’T fund raise.

*7. I have no idea what the German connection ....

Ar, actually Nicky I could print here what Christa said to about your best buddy.

PS Thanks for showing the public "how WE WORK "Nicky AGAINST people helping animals at their own cost.

Hi all

PALE, you are indeed a lost cause. I had no idea you had a VOLUNTEER who (also) went into hiding from you - you happened to throw that in. How many of these poor sods are there? As for the "we", do get over your paranoia. Go back on your medication or something. If you think you have a case for fraud against one or all of these people, get your "team of lawyers" - and your QC, of course - onto it. Incidentally, why would you think that the Handle with Care coalition would have any use for PALE's lawyers? It's just PALE not wanting to be left out of the action, of course.

You do not provide any enlightenment about when this Ikebal contributed the pearl of wisdom that AFIC is going to speak out about live exports, was it before or after you hung up the phone on him? Was it within the last two years?

I can just imagine Glenys Ooojges needing PALE's advice on petitions and other political matters too.

Which jurisdiction are you planning to take me to court in, you imbecile? I can't wait to see the substance of the grounds. There are pages and pages of evidence on these threads of you trying to discredit almost every other animal advocacy organization in Australia and some overseas ones as well.

Do go ahead and post what "Christa said about my best buddy"; I can't wait to see that either. But you won't, of course.

Dickie, you will notice that I am totally ignoring the usual ignorant abuse from myopinion; it is simply not worth a response.

Nicky

+Dickie, you will notice …
Nicky people respond in the way they are approached. Myopinion seems no different.

+. I had no idea you had a VOLUNTEER who (also)* went into hiding from you - you happened to throw that in.
Nicky you raised this person. You’re being dishonest to now to pretend you don’t know what I am talking about.

I’ve always told you –You raise it- we’ll respond openly and honestly.

I remind you that it was ‘you’ (WE) that went out of your way to post on a public forum that some poor person was forced to sell their house and move so we could not find them.

“That was to infer that pale must be pretty scary awful people and to discredit us”.

It was a nasty bitchy untruthful comment.



BTW I don’t care what you can imagine re the petition for live exports- Ask Lyn.

, +why would you think that the Handle with Care coalition would have any use for +Pale’s lawyers? It's just PALE not wanting to be left out of the action, of course.

Nicky why do you (WE) make RSPCA QLD Pales business your business?
Your all so busy worrying about what pale are doing its pathetic.
However as you asked so nicely I will tell you.

Because they have years of knowledge working with these people. We made you (WE) look rather foolish.


Er,What action are you suggesting we are missing out on.
20 years later ....... ?

First you ( WE) were cross because we worked with RSPCA QLD- then hopping mad we signed an Animal Welfare MOU with Muslim Leaders.

Then because we preferred to work with farmers instead of against them

We joined OLO to post comments regarding animal welfare and about ‘our’ ideas and ‘programs’.

Followed closely by you (WE) with your hatred and nasty posts against true animal lovers?


Said I 'couldn’t' print what Christa said. WOULDNT help animals.
PALES not trying to discredit Animals Australia.

You’re ( WE) the only one doing that.

They are just as much victims of "you" that we are.

*Yabby, you typically failed to mention that 140-odd people gathered was in one suburb of one regional town. But you would, of course.*

You did not mention it either at the time. So how many people
Australia wide? Any press comments to confirm it?

*oh boy have you got a sweat up.*

I have? Sheesh, could have fooled me lol.

*You ain't seen nuthin' yet *

Well so far I ain't seen nuthin yet, but I am very patient.

*And more Karmic forces working against this industry *

Last I heard, pirates rob ships all the time in SE Asia, its
big biz, 60 Minutes did a story on it once. Now a cattle
ship is robbed, must be Karma lol. You are as batty as
Boaz, with your religion. Robertson and Falwell told us
it was all that fornication that caused the hurricanes
in Florida, they are as nuts as you are!

It seems to me that people like you and Nicky are absolutaly
paranoid about death, rather then accept it as part of the
natural cycle.

Hi all

For those curious about the ship attacked by pirates, it was the "Hereford Express". This is the re-birthed "Dealco 1", and this is what Animals Angels had to say about it when they did a couple of investigations on it:-

"The MV Dealco seemed completely unsuitable for livestock transport. The animals down on the 4th and 5th level were suffering from extensive heat and high ammoniac levels. In some places the faeces reached 4 inches high. This vessel transported on one trip 2669 cattle, and was extremely over-crowded. Even with “only” 2200 animals the vessel was overcrowded. The animals in no way had any comfort during this long voyage on the MV Dealco vessel

"Both vessels - MV Dealco and Janet 1 - should be outlawed

"Our investigators were able to photocopy some paperwork regarding these transports:

"Mortality Reports signed by the captain- usually they do not state the cause of death, but in one case broken legs were given as a reason".

"Australian Health Certificates - these were very interesting because they are signed by two veterinarians: Dr. Richard Morton and Dr. Robert Harmata. In our opinion these health certificates raise a lot of questions. Some animals did not have eartags, whereas with others the numbers can be clearly identified".

People are advised to "write to the Australian government, demanding that the "Dealco" and "Janet 1" be put on the black list and banned from transporting livestock. The voyage, which is already long and stressful for the animals, causes further suffering because of the lack of adequate space, ventilation and food and water in these two old boats. If Australia insists on continuing their live animal export business, then the least they can do is ensure that the vessels used to carry their animals are modern and designed to provide a minimum level of well-being".

The "Janet 1", believed to have been named after Janet Holmes a Court, was re-birthed as the "Jersey Express", and was last reported heading for the scrapyard. The "Dealco 1", as we see, continues to operate as the "Hereford Express".

Nicky

"Dickie, you will notice that I am totally ignoring the usual ignorant abuse from myopinion; it is simply not worth a response."

Good one Nicky. Perhaps it's worked. He's not been on this thread since early this morning. Wow!

This sooky can't cope with rejection and I suspect he's in the bath tub trying to drown his rubber ducky.

Yes, Dickie, but he and his equally amoral mate are continuing to be super-vocal on the other one. Mention the odd case and they accuse you of over-generalizing and bring in the poor old Catholic Church (!! relevance?)

It seems that they much prefer torturing animals with the most painful suffering and deaths possible rather than look for a way of alleviating that. Surely all the agricultural experts (vivisectionists) at the CSIRO should be able to come up with something less morally abhorrent than the current crop of lethal baits. Bit I think they should test them on farmers.

Yabby thinks that because his dogs are slightly more fortunate than most that all are treated the same.

Cheers for now,
Nicky

*Surely all the agricultural experts (vivisectionists) at the CSIRO should be able to come up with something less morally abhorrent than the current crop of lethal baits. Bit I think they should test them on farmers.*
Goday everbody
Nicky you have already been told what works. So you could have said Surely CSIRO can come up with a gentic saffron. Actually Nicky dont hold your breath. The producer of 1080 has a board who has a big say where their research funds are spent. They will look after the share holders into that company first.
Recall however that the top man was personally very interested.

Gave him some details and hope he went to see the farmers before they passed over. Apparently they were elderly. I was told by the farmer who gave us the information they first gave it to AA but they showed no interest.

So we wrote to AA about this also. I guess its hard when you have so many projects and just so many people to do it.

Still I hope AA oneday look at that as well as our invitation to discuss gas plants for larger animals that we put to them also.

Like them we cant work on everything at once.
Perhaps we can look forward to better results in the future.

I sure hope so for the sake of the animals

Mention the odd case and they accuse you of over-generalizing and bring in the poor old Catholic Church (!! relevance?)

Nicky the relevance is clear. We need to do something about the over population of people in the world which increases the demands of animals to be slaughtered.

I cant understand why you cant see the relavance in that statement.
Needless to say we need to tun a world wide campange again the dam Churches silence toward animal cruelty.

If you believe in something you must stand up for it and whats right. WHY hasnt anybody other than pale pointed a fingure at the discusting leadship by our Churches leaders ignoring God Creatures. Why just us.Oh Hugh actually said something. GOOD ON HIM FOR THAT!

So there is the relevance in mentioning the Catholic Church and ALL Churches leaders and Churches.

Why on earth hasnt your buddies PETA targetted 'them' - I wonder?

Probably afraid to upset some of their high profile members and supporters I suppose.

Money again probably

Hi all

PALE, are you ever going to provide answers to my questions? You did say that if I raised things you "answered honestly". I'm waiting for evidence of that.

Do you have scientific evidence about "genetic saffron"? I'm quite sure that more than one company manufactures and distributes 1080, as well.

As for the relevance of the Catholic Church, I doubt if its policies on contraception have reached the ears of the people to whom you refer. They probably haven't even heard of the Catholic Church and most likely don't contribute a whole lot to the slaughter of animals either. As for no-one taking the churches to task about their poor attention to the plight of animals, I know of at least two groups who are doing just that, with the various churches in Australia and overseas. And that's besides Hugh Wirth.

You should also check your facts about Hugh Wirth's "government pay check" (sic). I think you'll find that he may get some sort of honorarium from his RSPCA/WSPA activities, but otherwise, so far as I know, his income derives from his own veterinary practice.

So you haven't really done any trailblazing there, I'm afraid.

Nicky

+I can just imagine Glenys Ooojges needing PALE's advice on petitions and other political matters too.+
Then I suggest you ask Her to come on OLO and deny what I said Nicky. Its about time Ingred came on here also and debated us face to face. Frankly your doing far more damage by making comments for them. Its simply awful what you are doing to Animals Australia PETA and all organisations.
You havent stopped bitching and moaning about pale in two years.

I have said before both on and off OLO you have IMOP a mental problem. Despite your best efforts to convince yourself you are somebody of authority and or knowledge your totally lost.
Its clear to anybody on OLO you know zero about stock but you wont listen to people who do.

I have tried really hard to respond to you with respect for a fellow animal lover however its useless.
The only time you run is when people give you back what you dish out such has been seen on the peta thread in the last week or so.

Nicky if there are another few hundred people trying to help animals thats better than nothing.
EVEN if those people acheived nothing thats no reason to be so nasty.

At least they tried in their own time with their OWN money so why dont you to be blunt stop being such a bitch.

For once in your life REALLY think what you are doing to hurt Animals and poor old Animals Australia and PETA.

Dear God Nicky you have turned animal welfare into a mockery and you dont even see it.
If you wont listen to us then listen to everybody else.

They are all telling you the same thing.

Nicky]
I am now Why on earth hasnt your buddies PETA targetted 'them' - I wonder?

Probably afraid to upset some of their high profile members and supporters I suppose.

Money again probably
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 16 June 2008 8:58:09 PMIf you believe in something you must stand up for it and whats right. WHY hasnt anybody other than pale pointed a fingure at the discusting leadship by our Churches leaders ignoring God Creatures. Why just us.Oh Hugh actually said something. GOOD ON HIM FOR THAT!

This is what I a said- Again.=

Why on earth hasnt your buddies PETA targetted 'them' (Church leaders) - I wonder?

Probably afraid to upset some of their high profile members and supporters I suppose.

Money again probably wonder if your backward because you KEEP implying I have posted something I have not.
I said NOTHING about Hughs Pay Packet. You just dishonest. Everytime your cornered you change my comments around to suit yourself in the hope others have not read them- or think they have misunderstood

Hi all

PALE. What can I say? Your OWN words, on this thread:-

"Iam just wondering what type of snake in the grass would behave in such a manner, or should I say ‘snakes’. Gee I wonder if Hughs Government pay check has something to do with it. They are so friendly with Elders and other low life live shipping agents it makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up".

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1780&page=0#38564

You should be more careful about the allegations you make, particularly when they are without any apparent foundation

I have no idea why PETA or any of the other established groups you mention have not taken the churches to task, but as I said, I know of a couple of groups which have and do.

NOW can you please answer my questions?

Nicky

The facts again you distort. In that post its clear I was refering the the fact that RSPCA CEOs and Inspectors wages are paid for between the Federal and State Governments.
Thats is simple a fact of life . Also cars , holidays are paid for by Government the last time somebody made enquires.
Personally I dont care what others do but you lot are so desperate to interfear with our work.
You oppose pale because we work towards reopening abattoirs to faze out live exports.
Thats really confusing as most web pages read= Replace Live with chilled. Its also dishonest.
We we have it in black and white from all the major players thats pales projects = dont fit in - under their umbrella- Umm umbrellas because of their involment in reopening abattoirs.

So why dont you all stop lying to the public and state your real agenda. Your holding animal welfare back and causing animals to suffer. The Government then brand everybody as extreme.

You know Nicky we were warned about a certain persons attitute that she 'had to be seen as the only person doing something the help animals' years ago.
We were warned people like you would haunt us and we would be hated if we actually came up with a sensible alternative.

We were also told then that person would try to jump in and copy us and take the credit.
She I am told they nearly had a FIT when we decided to work in conjunction with RSPCA QLD.

Since then much time was spent to achieve likewise. Wow after twenty years- what leadership.? Of course its the same thing with Muslim leaders but they made a huge hash of that.

You Nicky Your worse by far. You are I am sad to say someone nobody wants anything to do with. I once pleaded your case years ago believe it or not. Because I saw some protectial in you but everyone said the same.
Unfortunetly your personality destroys any good intentions to help animals.

It also discredits others like AA and pETA

Another thing Nicky
We were requested weeks ago not to have any futher discussions with you by our lawyers. To a point i ignored that once again thinking despite your personality you care for animals.
Your comments are now on record with our lawyer who reads this slight on a daily basis.
A phone call confirms this morning that is now a direction . So we will not be responding to you at all in the future. I think GY has also warned you and punished you in the past for breaking forum rules.
I have at times as well be guilty of responding to you in an angry manner. I regret that.
Please note if you contiune to try to defame pale he wont sit back this time. Your comment that we support FGM is still on record and you did not apoligise. Despite causing upset with our Muslim friends and co workers.
I think you had best consider your own postion if you persist but most of all the damage your doing to all animal welfare groups and the poor animals.

Why dont you do something for the animals instead of using olo to try to make yourself look something your not.- sensible.

Help RSPCA clean out cages feed and take dogs for a walk or something.

They need all the help they can get with so many animals being dumped.

Dear me, PALE. Where to start.

1. Your post, with the link provided says no such thing. It is a direct assertion about Hugh (Wirth), and you know it.

2. You did not know me "years ago", so you cannot possibly have had discussions with anyone about me, and I can assure you that I can lay claim to far better credentials in the movement than you can. Nor can I imagine any circumstances under which I would EVER want PALE to "plead my case" - please NEVER do so again, I wouldn't want to be guilty by association.

3. You cannot even answer a series of perfectly simple inoffensive questions without threatening to bring on "the lawyers". The only people who want nothing to do with me is/are PALE (unless, of course, the "team of lawyers" is serious about thinking it has a prayer if it tries to take me on. But please do go ahead).

3. Graham Young suspended you for 24 hours at the same time as he suspended me (speaking of distortions), nor was I "warned" as such. How many times under its names has PALE been suspended and/or had posts deleted? I have only had that one suspension, at your instigation, no doubt, because it is your method of refusing to answer straight questions. Rather cowardly, I suggest.

4. I never at any time said that PALE "supported FGM", and you know it. You rebuked me for speaking out against it because you thought it would alienate Muslims. Those are the facts of the matter. Here, you state again "causing upset with our Muslim friends and co workers", so clearly one is not allowed to speak out against the practice as far as PALE is concerned.

(Continues)

Nicky

5. You continue to libel and damage every other organization and people in them, while accusing me of doing just that. Can you not see that? Do you ever re-read your own posts? Everyone is wrong except you. Does it not occur to you that this is why people want nothing to do with you?

6. Before you "pick up your bat and ball" and run off in a tantrum, please answer the questions I have asked so repeatedly.

Now, of course, because of your ongoing abuse, which has seen everyone else leave this thread, it will probably be closed down. Typical. THAT's how much PALE HELPS ANIMALS.

Nicky

To anybody interested. This is Not information Nicky or Dickie would know about or be involved in.

Its just general info about whats happening in Animal Welfare.

pale stands alone in its work to reopen abattoirs in Australia to faze out live animal exports.
We are disliked because of this work. We looked at the 20 year history and wanted to help RSPCA and Animals Australia.

We wanted to establish a way in which animal welfare could be improved and each branch of RSPCA and also Animals Australia could be given large donations to support their work.

What we were not expecting TBO was the agressive behavouir towards people with such good intentions only wishng to help animals and these organisations.

Ingred of PETA and Glenyse Of Animals Australia have been very rude IMO. We are well and truely sick of nasty types. This anti pale is run from the top. What we want to know is WHY.

WSPA Voiceless Animals Australia ALL wrote to pale telling them they didnt qualify to be members of each of their organisations and claiming our involvement in reopening abattoiirs as the reason.


They had twenty years before us to do something. We started it as the new kids on the block. Just like we first started working with RSPCA QLD.


These people are so nasty. We just dont understand it. Nasty emails and phone calls to members. Kids being told they cant attend a rally after cutting out their little signs and mum making their costumes.

You might ask WHY these kids were made so unwelcome and their parents. "
Because they were members of pale of course- the animal killers etc.

What a horrible lot the animal welfare people are.
So we intend to change things.

Now others want the credit for our working with Muslim, Leaders.
Bugger what they stuff up on the way. Discusting especially as they know bugger all about plants and stock.

Your behavouir is discusting and holding back important work to help animals.
That is ALL we are interested in- not your nasty clicky gatherings

To anyone still out there...

How could I have missed this little gem?

PALE wants to "help" the RSPCA and Animals Australia. Their method of doing so is to totally discredit both organizations. God help anyone that PALE wants to help.

These organizations are "aggressive". You be the judge of who is "aggressive" on every thread to which PALE has "contributed". They then want to know why Ingrid Newkirk and Glenys Oogjes want nothing to do with them (for God's sake!). It has nothing to do with the egos of those people ad everything to do with PALE's bullying, undermining tactics and total lack of professional standards.

PALE has made absolutely NO contribution to animal welfare in this country. Its entire "raison d'etre" appears to be to discredit all the people and organizations who have. Shame on you. PALE, you cannot expect to get away with all the rubbish you have posted about other people without some form of retaliation. And we still don't know where the money has gone/is going. Bring on the "lawyers"!

Nicky

Pale. I'm afraid Nicky is correct. You continue to maintain the unreasonable assumption that animal welfare and slaughterhouses are under the same tent when it is obvious to the most voracious carnivore that the abattoir industry, in any nation, is the most violent and brutal of all.

It is of concern that you continue to display an unhealthy zeal to be part of that industry.

"Because they were members of pale of course- the animal killers etc."

You need a serious reality check Pale for that IS your agenda, to kill animals.

"What a horrible lot the animal welfare people are.
So we intend to change things."

To date Pale, your endeavours to "change things" have been totally futile, therefore, please desist from masking your true agenda under the guise of animal welfare whilst discrediting all those "horrible" organisations, which have made a difference to the welfare of animals and which do not share your passion to shed the blood of animals.

Your hypocrisy has seen you self-destruct Pale and your petulance has left you with opponents only.

Unfortunately you remain defiant and belligerent but nobody's listening. To whom now will you turn?

Hi Dickie

I would like to say how much we appreciate your to the point comment. It certainly points out that yourself and Nicky and your friends oppose re opening of slaughter houses in Australia to phase out live animal Exports.

We do understand the huge opposition to our program. If I had my way nobody would ever kill an animal. However that is a rather selfish position to take TBO.

You are of course incorrect to say we have made no difference. We are pleased to say we have been able to divert large orders of live animals to chilled. Also to have assisted buyers of live animals in the past into plants in Australia. There are many other things which are why you were all invited to meet us. We don’t and won’t post all our programs on OLO because many come under privy biz of others. Just for the record we are also looking at the WA case.

After saying that if your people refuse to discuss it with our QC it does make it difficult to help the animals TBO.

Anybody really serious about wanting further information is welcome to meet with pale and their lawyers to sign a non disclosure.


The hypocrisy Dickie is yours and your friend’s inability to face facts for the sake of the animals. That’s really sad. To Ban Live Exports means we 'must' come up with alternatives.

Let me ask you a question Dickie- Do you really think you can stop the world eating meat? I wish, we wish BUT it’s never going to happen.
The fact that you have pointed the others position regarding pale is however a good thing. To answer your question=
To whom now will you turn?
To the public and the Media, Government and anybody who will listen.

To really love animals you must be prepaired to STOP live exports anyway you can.
At least making their suffering a lot shorter. Shame On those who oppose that!

Hi Dickie - thanks for that.

PALE, it would be interesting to see just a fraction of proof of your claims. As I have said before, the government and the exporters hide behind "privacy" provisions, so where does that place PALE?

Still my questions remain unanswered. Where has the money from the Paypal "donate now" link gone? Is PALE legally constituted to raise funds in such a manner? Also, I was not surprised to receive no response from RSPCA Queensland about the submission into the "Animal Welfare" proposed standards. Can it be that they have nothing more to do with PALE?

Dickie is absolutely right - PALE is simply in the business of wanting to slaughter animals for profit through its HKM arm, and trying to hide that under a facade of claiming to do it to end live exports. Everyone knows that and Dickie is correct, you have abused and maligned too many worthwhile people and organizations (who DO make real contributions to animal welfare, contrary to PALE) to ever claim any support in the future from anyone. The government, the public and the media? Get over yourself. PALE has no credibility left with anyone.

As for "non-disclosure agreements", don't make me laugh. There would be nothing worth disclosing, and I have told you - your "QC" (if he exists) would need to have standing to "look at the WA case" - and he hasn't and you haven't. If he claims to be a QC and doesn't know that one has to wonder. He can "look at it" as much as he likes and it will still go nowhere. He should know that too if he's any good.

Nicky

Ah, but where you girls have your philosophy all screwed up, is
that if you refuse to support slaughtering animals in Australia,
then what you are all about is not animal welfare, but animal
liberation, which is very different indeed as a philosophy!

In other words, you still will not accept the fact that if
animals are left to nature, they will suffer far more and
crueler deaths, then if looked after by most farmers,
especially in an Australian free range situation.

In fact we've just seen what happens, when a farmer gives up
on his livestock and doesent look after them, in Grass Patch.

Left to nature, its been a disaster, animals dying everywhere,
the RSPCA moved in and had to shoot alot of animals. All terribly
sad.

Perhaps the huge effort and expense that most farmers invest,
to make sure that their animals are fed and watered, not overpopulated
and have happy lives, is highly undervalued by those who don't
understand as to how much is involved.

If an animal is shot in a meatworks, why is that cruel?
If it had a happy life, didn't suffer, didn't starve or die of
thirst, if it thrived during most of its life, its probably
had things much easier then most animals in nature.

Fact is, there is only so much room on the planet for so many.
That is the reality. None of you have ever come up with a
solution to the realities of nature.

Ok so be honest girls, you are not about animal welfare, you
are about animal liberation, which is a very different concept.

Hi Yabby

I'm not speaking for Dickie here. I'm aware of the situation at Grass Patch, and, like so many similar ones, had the farmer not bred the animals in the first instance the disaster would not have happened. The most staggering thing is that RSPCA WA is yet to decide whether or not to prosecute. Don't breed 'em if you can't feed 'em.

Quite simple really (I mean, it's not rocket science that if you keep ewes and rams, and bulls and cows, and boars and sows apart, you won't breed animals, is it?).

It is, however, far preferable that if animals MUST be slaughtered, that it occurs under proper, humane conditions as close to the place where they were raised as possible. They should never be sent half way across the world (or the country) to be brutalized, although you have said that you people here do similar stuff, of course.

None of this should be a too difficult a concept.

Still, as the drought continues, hopefully you people won't be able to continue your current practices, and with rising fuel and feed prices, you'll have to find something else to do.

The problem I have with PALE is that it clearly is just one person, who cannot provide any sound or verifiable information about what it actually does (except promoting its slaughter venture) and it expects us to believe that it is an animal welfare "group". Furthermore, it claims not to raise funds, but has a Paypal "donate now" link on its websites.

Nicky

*had the farmer not bred the animals in the first instance the disaster would not have happened.*

Nicky, you still don't get it. Animals left to their own devices
will breed all by themselves, nothing to do with the farmer.

*it's not rocket science that if you keep ewes and rams, and bulls and cows, and boars and sows apart, you won't breed animals, is it?).*

Well for you it clearly is rocket science, for you clearly still don't
get it! Animals have a natural instinct, due to billions of years
of evolution, to breed and multiply. That is basic evolution theory.

If you go against those instincts and try to deny them their natural
urges, you will be amazed as to how talented they are in escaping
your piddly fences and doing what comes naturally. I've known
of cases of just one smart arsed little ram lamb learning some
new trick and 200 ewes landing up pregnant. You would need all
your rocket science to outsmart them, never underestimate those
urges and what they can do, if they really try!

Fact is, many stay in their paddocks, as they are content with
the world, not because of Fort Knox type fences.

Yabby
I thought I would share this with you as your probably the only one who will appreciate it. ( Then again maybe not) Anyway it looks like we have a major cattle exporters ready to convert to chiiled. We are absolutly delighted so keep things crossed for us.
Also he has been helpful on the feed lot accreditations and has no problem with creek fed either. On top of that we have another two farmers travelling down next week and one of those is a poultry farmer prepaired to look at making the change to large free range farms etc..

It one by one by two but as you know its the best way because other farmers look over the back paddock and say- Hey hang on a moment hes getting$$ etc.

I just wish the others would see it that way. I wish they could understand its for the better of the animals.

I am not prepaired to post anything we are doing with Halal under the circumstances and I do not accept our girls on this forum are seperate from the extreme lot.

I will let you know when I hear more about feed lot accreditations and how we can approach the board for more space.

Dickie Pls understand there is a real need for people to reopen plants to divert from live exports.

Each of us must do things that we think make a difference and I am sorry but you cant protest live exports and oppose reopening abasttoirs in the same breath.

You CAN insist on the very best plants and equiptment and that ALL codes of transport are followed and stock are fed and watered and treated in the best way possible.
You can update plants as better equiptment becomes available. You can work on gas If you are involved in the industry you can stop a lot of cruelty.
We love animals enough to actually DO something.

Yabby, don't be dense, there's a good boy. Besides, I thought you castrated most of your ram lambs (without anaesthesia, not like you would your dog or cat, of course).

PALE, sounds like the usual unsubstantiated, unverifiable fairytales to me, invented to yet again avoid answering my questions. Don't you think people notice, and see your operation for what is - a front for slaughterhouses, masquerading as an animal welfare "group". An organization which is not prepared to answer reasonable questions about its operations and fundraising activities.

As for gas stunning:

"Aversive gas stunning has been criticised extensively on welfare grounds (particularly with reference to pigs). The Farm Animal Welfare Council (UK) recommended in 2003 that it should be phased out".

And a comment by Professor Gary Francione:
"Despite all of the welfarist campaigns of the last century, we are using more animals now in more horrific ways than ever before in
human history."

Nicky

*Yabby, don't be dense, there's a good boy.*

Me dense Nicky? You clearly don't have the foggiest about what goes
on around a farm, how different breeds behave, under various
conditions etc.

You have these little pet theories, perhaps based on something
like a dopey merino and then make assumptions with no understanding
at all!

*Still, as the drought continues, hopefully you people won't be able to continue your current practices, and with rising fuel and feed prices, you'll have to find something else to do.*

A survey was done of 300 farms in the SW of WA, from 2002-2006.
Returns from agriculture were 8%, 1% from farming the land, 7% from
rising land values.

In other words, all that hard work is hardly worth it. The most
profitable thing one could do is just let the animals live naturally,
cut numbers to sustainable levels, do nothing, it costs nothing.
Just sell the surplus that nature creates, all by herself.

Based on that model, you have buckley's chance that the grass will
stop growing, for while it does, there will be models that are
profitable, one way or another.

Yabby said

Ah, but where you girls have your philosophy all screwed up, is
that if you refuse to support slaughtering animals in Australia,
then what you are all about is not animal welfare, but animal
liberation, which is very different indeed as a philosophy!
Pale comments.
Yabby I note your comment went unchallanged from the er, ladies.
Wouldnt that then mean that Australians who are concerned about humane products from paddock to plate are not being heard.?

I guess we can then take it they agree with your comments.

So in fact PETA and the ladies Australian peak heros are Animal Liberation in your opinion.

I see now why pale recieved letters from all of the peak organisations refusing to assist our projects to reopen abattoirs to faze out live exports.

Yep its all as clear as mud now. Just as well Pale decided to work in Conjunction with RSPCA QLD.

One cant be too careful these days just whom one mixes with can they:)


You know considering Australia is a meat eating country surley these bright old uni ducks should have figured out some basics for themselves .

One would have to be that to improve conditions for animals people must to work with Governments farmers Muslims and anybody else involved with the industry,'''


What a darn shame PETA and their buddies wont support programes to phase out live exports and assist to reopen plants to save the animals a long unnessary journey in third world countrys.

It kind of makes you wonder what it is they do with all those millions raised each year.

Sad when you think how much of a difference they could have made by making sure the animals are at least slaughtered as close to their place of origen.

I wonder if its too much lettuce that stop the girls from being able to think for 'themselves.'

GY Great.
I will forward the rest as requested to Canberra

Attention Graham Young
You are aware pale is a member that works in conjunction with RSPCA QLD.

Also that we work with Australian Federatation of Islamic Council and Councils( there are thirty two of them in all btw)

Your personally as well aware there are serval lawyers both as members and in fact the President.

You know Antje and Taryn and I dare say you have glanced at our schools and farm stays .

Its just as clear this person posting as Nicky is not following "your own forum rules"

Its clear to all shes on a mission from the libbers and veggie groups against pale and RSPCA QLD.

What we do not understand is why you have allowed your forum to be used in personal attacks instead of debating the issue.

The next comment isnt so bad UNLESS Graham you combine it with the fact your 'whole forum' has been used by her as a anti RSPCA QLD and Pale attack.

If you read this next comment you can see it CLEARLY untrue which you well know-

Nicky said

"The problem I have with PALE is that it clearly is just one person,"
Ok Graham See if you are brighter than Nicky Ah. Now Count the pictures. Maybe between you both you can mamange that ?

who cannot provide any sound or verifiable information about what it actually does (except promoting its slaughter venture) and it expects us to believe that it is an animal welfare "group". Furthermore, it claims not to raise funds, but has a Paypal "donate now" link on its websites.

So Graham we have complained that your forum has been used breaking your 'own forum rules. I do not think our members or RSPCA QLD should put up with this for two yerars.L

Lies after lies post after post either.

Perhaps these forums must be brought to the Governments attention as well.
Pity because I would hate to see more freedom of speech taken from the public.
But Still one irresponsible forum owner could do it

Hi all

Yabby, there seems little point repeating the obvious yet again. But if all the hard work "isn't worth it", I guess you'll all have to find something else to do eventually. And luckily the grass isn't growing all that well, is it?

PALE, you should not need anyone to qualify the difference between animal liberation and animal welfare. PETA is not in the business of funding slaughterhouses, nor would any other animal advocacy organization worthy of the name do so.

As for what they do with their millions, I have been trying to find out for weeks what PALE does with the money it receives from its Paypal "donate now" link. I'm advised by the Queensland Department of Fair Trading that "People Against Live Exports Incorporated" (registered number IA33188) "does not appear to be registered for charitable purposes". Perhaps that's the key to your refusal to answer.

The Department's website further states:

"Unfortunately, there are also some unscrupulous people out there who try to take your cash by posing as charity collectors".

Curiouser and curiouser ...

Nicky

*But if all the hard work "isn't worth it", I guess you'll all have to find something else to do eventually. And luckily the grass isn't growing all that well, is it?*

Well its growing pretty well here, where I am. WA is a huge place,
but then you don't know a thing about it. This area has never ever
had a crop failure. Dry years perhaps, but no failures.

Why on earth should people walk away from a lifetimes work? If
the model is wrong, so change it. Farmers are incredibly innovative.

The thing is, as costs rise, the most profitable thing to do is the
no cost option, let nature do it all. You produce less, but it costs
nothing. The benefits are huge. For one no more hard work and
a slack lifestyle, like you people lead anyhow, at our expense.

Far too many farmers have gone broke, trying to feed livestock
through droughts. Best to quit the surplus early and go fishing
or something. In 2006 we had a dry year, so the best thing that
a number of us did, was get the gun out and shoot a few thousand
lambs. The mommies were a bit sad for a day or two, but it preserved
the land, it preserved them and it preserved our bank balances, so a
win-win all round.

The live trade was also a huge benefit, as alot of farmers could
sell surplus stock to them, at a fair price, unlike the local
meatworks, who screwed farmers into the ground and took advantage.
When meatworks have a captive market, they show no mercy, that is
why the live trade needs to stay.

Nicky, if I left this place with not a single animal on it, in a
few years they would come from somewhere, multiply and in the end,
overpopulate and die of starvation. That is nature for you, something
that you refuse to accept.

Deny nature at your peril.

PALE, I absolutely agree with you. These fora SHOULD be brought to the Government's attention (in particular the Queensland Department of Fair Trading). Nor have I told lies about you (quite the reverse, in fact, you do that about me and others all the time and expect to be able to do it with impunity).

Anyone can look pictures on an aging website and assume things that may no longer be there (if they ever were).

I have merely asked you a series of questions about your activities and operations. It appears that now PALE also has some sort of interest in "farm stays" and "schools". Are we to assume that PALE also derives funds from these operations as well as its Paypal link and any slaughterhouses it may operate? And PALE does not raise funds? Come on. And you claim that I and others lie.

Nor have I expressed any issues with RSPCA Queensland or AFIC. I have simply stated that I do not want to work with them (or PALE). For that, I have been besieged with tirades of incoherent, barely comprehensible abuse and threats (as have others). I have looked through some of the older threads lately, and found that you treat almost everyone in much the same way, I cannot believe that Graham has not banned you permanently, unless he thinks you have a certain sad entertainment value.

I have taken issue with just one of your posts with Graham. You, because you are asked to substantiate your claims, are now running to him looking for protection. You are a poor, sad individual.

Yabby - it is your manipulation of nature to which I object - in particular, taking out a few thousand lambs and blowing them away. And you expect as to have sympathy for FARMERS? Not in this lifetime, given the violence you assure us you continually perpetrate against your animals in varying degrees.

Nicky

What manipulation of nature, Nicky? The fact that we shot those lambs, rather
then let them and their mothers starve and the land blow away?

This is where you lose the ability to think rationally. We did the humane and
sensible thing for those animals. We saved a lot of animals a lot of suffering.

Somehow in your psyche there is a screw loose. Perhaps you are absolutatly
terrified of death. Farming teaches you something. Both birth and death
are part of the cycle of life. Some live longer, some don’t. That is the reality
of nature. If you haven’t come to terms with the reality of nature, birth and death,
then that is your personal problem.

Given that nature can be so cruel and we did the humane and sensible thing,
You should acknowledge that, but you don’t. Quite irrational.

Combine empathy with being terrified of death and you want to deny reality.

"so the best thing that a number of us did, was get the gun out and shoot a few thousand lambs. The mommies were a bit sad for a day or two, but it preserved the land, it preserved them and it preserved our bank balances, so a win-win all round."

Hey Nicky. "preserved the land" it says? "A win-win all round" it declares. Is this a psycho or what? 'im indoors, aka Creepius Pervertus, deliberately grows a "few thousand lambs" trashing the soil, wasting our precious water resources, elevating GHGs and ripping off the public purse to take these critters out with a shotgun.

Of course they wouldn't include the defenceless little ones he sends off to the land of the barbarians - ooh no way Jose!

So we have a sheep molesting Nazi psycho running amok in the killing fields of WA.

No wonder those gorgeous chicks pinched his comb-over and gopher. Smart girls - "yeah you go girls - go!"

What a creep eh?

Hello Dickie

We too feel upset but understand in times of severe drought it can be kinder. How terrible for those mothers of the lambs. How distressing for the herd. At least they dont go on THOSE ships I guess.
What I think has been missed in animal welfare is we have not done enough research into 'particular' areas and 'farms .

In other words the Animal Welfare organisations perhaps Animals Australia must identify the properties where this happans over and over.

To do that we would need to establish a national register which all farmers would have to reoprt to if they had to carry out mass paddock slaughters.
Then have a bill passed that on those properties a limited number of animals could be bred only. It would take work to but deatils of the most effected areas in Australia are on record.

It is only reasonable that each state Government take some sort of reasonsibilty.

Also that the farmers do likewise. After all the public pay to sub farmers.
The counter argument for that of course might be that there would be a race to relocate to better pasture. This would put the little farmer up against the big boys.
That would mean more intensive and less free range.
However perhaps you have some general ideas on how we could look at farmers who have made a habbit of poor planing without proper fodder in place.
If so I would like to hear any ideas you might have.

Dickie, at some point you either can or cannot address serious
agronomic issues, the implications of drought etc and humane
solutions in our real world.

Your post shows that you clearly cannot. No wonder that
society in general and any serious political party in Australia,
does not take you and your little band seriously and you will
be largely ignored, as has been the case for years.

Either you have the ability to think rationally or you don't.

yabby

Sometimes we need to think outside the square in which we have lived.

Australia is the largest exporter of Animals but why?

When you think of it we are the most dry continent on earth.

I wonder if our reputation and romantic way of veiwing our bush is mostly within Australia.
Lets face it WHY are we dealing in breeding large heards of Animals when its a matter of record we cant cope. Over and over we have floods and drought.

Perhaps we should be only breeding what we can handle for our own country and leave it at that with a smaller amount of export in both chilled and alive.

It does seem rather silly. Could it be that Australia is the most cruel country on earth. Could it be that our Governments have been brought by the industry to allow this to contiune.
Australia CANT HANDLE large heards without mass cruelty because we cant supply the water. Or because in some ares of floods.

My God we are simply a country with a track record of awful Governments who couldnt care less about mass unnessary cruelty through lack of care.

You know when you look it that that way I am awfully ashamed on my country and its Government.
Then of course they sit back and are happy for people to put the blame on farmers instead of helping them into other industries.

SHAME ON THE AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT -

Hi all

Yabby, had you not over-bred "thousands" of lambs, you would not have "had to" blow their brains out, and it was certainly not a win for them or their mothers. Australia is a tragic country for permitting this treatment of its animals. If you cannot provide for them you should not be allowed to breed them; if you have to blow their brains out in numbers of thousands, you are clearly incompetent at what you are doing. Really, farmers who do these things should be charged and banned from having animals for life. The fact that you expect "support" from the wider Australian public for what you do is quite laughable really.

PALE, I'm sure Dickie, and even possibly Yabby, would be interested in the answers to my questions. I have been waiting for weeks now. What have you got to hide?

Nicky

Sheesh Nicky, you are so ignorant about farming, it is quite ridiculous!

Fact is that rainfall changes, seasons change. We work on the
balance of probabilities. What is perfectly logical and rational
over many years, can suddenly change when weather systems move.
We are not yet good enough to predict them in advance. That may yet
come, but it is not the case yet.

What on earth is your problem with humanely destroying livestock?
Clearly its not animal welfare that is your problem, but something
else. For there is no animal welfare issue, in fact the contrary.

Of course those mothers benefitted! Their condition picked up,
they were not dragged down, trying to produce all that milk.
Their only issue was focussing on themselves, they thrived.
Mommies do get over losing kids you know. Every year at weaning,
its much the same.

If more farmers adapted to our kind of strategy, you would not
see that soil blowing, or those orphan lambs starving, or
farmers going broke trying to feed them all.

Once you are dead Nicky, you won't know you are dead. Why are you
so terrified of accepting reality?

Life and death are just part of nature's cycle, why do you have
such a hard part accepting that? You really do wear your heart
on your sleeve.

*Approximately 20 years ago a wealthy businessman bought a former* *abattoir in W.A. His intention was to turn it into a small abattoir, processing plant and cannery for Halal mutton and beef, predominantly mutton. After approaching the then State Government, which gave verbal approval he then approached the Malaysian and Singaporean governments. Representatives from both governments looked at the plan and gave their approval and commitment. This abattoir and cannery would have sold most of it’s product into Malaysia and the rest into Singapore. It would have employed approximately 45 people full time and would have helped local farmers who were then battling high interest rates from the Hawke/Keating era.

This businessman applied for the approval through the local shire, but due to some petty jealousy’s amongst some of the councillors the planning approval was knocked back. An appeal to the Minister for Local Government didn’t get passed as the Minister didn’t want to overturn the Shire Council’s decision.

This would have probably been the first Halal abattoir in W.A. if it had gone ahead. This businessman saw the long term need to value add to stock. This is fact and not hearsay as I knew this businessman very well.

As a former farmer I am not against the live export trade but I am against cruelty to animals. A government will not stop the live export trade because of its value to the economy. Unless alternatives are found, the live export trade will continue. That I can assure you.
Posted by myopinion, Wednesday, 11 June 2008 10:38:08 PM

This comment by myopinion tells it like it is.

Nobody in their right minds can be so stupid not to see that the Government have no intention of stopping it.

Could They?

Its got to be a political joke right?

Twenty years to have no alternatives and no plans. Twenty7 years of saying Ban Live Export BUT lets stop anybody from reopening abattoirs as well.

Yeh Sure-

The only thing I could never work out is are they ````really? ``` that stupid.

PALE - not at all, but clearly you are, because you have got nowhere at all. And the longer you hide from my questions the longer people are going to wonder why.

You criticize the other organizations because they raise funds, yet clearly PALE does that too, all the while claiming to be working without payment. So why is there a Paypal "donate now" link at your websites and what do you do with the money? The Department of Fair Trading in Queensland says that PALE is not registered to collect funds as a charity, so how are you getting away with it?

After all the fanfare of the thread you started about submissions into the proposed Animal Welfare Standards, PALE chose not to provide a submission, nor, as far as I have been able to establish, did RSPCA Queensland, since I received no response to my request for a copy of the PALE/RSPCA document. And that was after all the BAD advice you provided on that thread about how to do these submissions.

Maybe you should just stick to your slaughterhouses, and abandon your pretence about animal welfare.

Nicky

pleased thats cleared up.
At least now we have established a motive for allowing this to continue on OLO.
Phew what a relief, for a while there we thought ‘maybe Nicky was GY wearing a dress :)



Nickys, on world wide internet a accusing pale and six lawyers of taking misusing donations. Not not only defames pale but my family. ~~ Clever~~

Libbers are obsessed with PALE.

‘Thanks’ for writing to fair trading it will assist us to establish our case before the judge.

You ‘still don’t get’ that HKM is a 'program' PALE put together working with RSPCA QLD Muslim Leaders and farmers.

PALE`s not personally involved in owning plants. You must be thick.

We are just babies of a few years. We`v done more already than you Debby Nicky or libbers have in twenty five pluss.

If you’re so concerned nothings through PALE why are ‘you’ not doing something. ?

Get out there and do something now- move it!

I`v ‘always’ said live exports will be ‘driven’ by the Industry.

If you want to phase out live exports you must compete offering viable alternatives and encouraging better welfare to animals.

RSPCA have more to do than write to someone that’s wasting their time. I encouraged the public to lodge subs because I am not happy with the current system.

I do not think RSPCA National should do the subs for each state. I think each state should do their own and advertise publicly loudly and heavily begging the public to put in subs, instead we hear nothing. I am not impressed by this ‘at all’.




You Debby Nicky Suzanne were offered to speak with one of our lawyers regarding the WA case= plus other programs. You declined.

We have busted open what I believe is a totally unacceptable management in Australia of Animal Welfare bodies.

This is not USA its Australia and PETA are a weird lot IMOP despite- doing a lot of good in some areas they are 'wrong' to tell people not to eat meat.

Nor did we ever say we were a charity btw.

#you criticize the other organizations because they raise funds, yet clearly PALE does#

Nicky
I do hope you guys have nice houses we can sell up for the Animals. At least ‘then’ we can say you contributed. No, we have never paid ourselves, nor will we.
Big difference between a charity like RSPCA and NFP

Don’t worry, I am sure they judge will explain it all to you both.

If anybody other than yourself is really interested in our pay pal (Which I doubt) i.e. note Dickie isnt=

The petition was in the first place set up by a volunteer. Her friend in USA build it hosted it and promoted it for no cost.

Then he died and another lady took the biz over.
She wanted $200.00 per month just to keep it up.!

She also said it wasn’t our petition and she didn’t have the keys or pass words after years of taking RSPCA QLD and PALES money.

We decided to keep it going anyway despite the obvious blackmail. We paid the $200.00 per month as a ‘thank you and ‘in memory and to honor “that wonderful man who did this for the animals.”!
Also To to help the Animals because it’s the best petition world wide against Live Animal Exports.

Its called Principle. Something you know very little about imo.



Pale has had in six years $65.00 dollars donated to it plus one lovely man sent a cheque for $250, 00 dollars.

Actually Pale 'disabled' the pay pal link on it for years (considering we were told it wasn’t our site but the volunteers?)
But not before we traced it back to Germany.

This is what I do Nicky investigations and frankly some guys are not looking too crash hot.

That would be the lady you mentioned that moved house and changed her phone number so we couldn’t find her. That is What you said- Wasn’t it?

Something tells me you’re going to make a wonderful witness!

Watch that dodgy ankle- cant have our star witness tripping down the stairs.

Can We?:)

Dear me, PALE, so many empty threats. Where are the "lawyers"? Conspicuous by their absence, as are all your other "associates". And the Paypal link works for me - funny, that. You contradict yourself over and over again. First you have no control over the website then you claim you were able to "disable" the Paypal link. Why would someone in Germany bother to set up such a link for you?

I suggest that you learn a little about the law, and what constitutes libel. Asking legitimate questions - questions, not making statements - about an organization not registered to collect funds as a charity apparently accepting donations through an internet link would constitute a "public interest" (among other) defence/s, should you be silly enough to think about pursuing such a ridiculous claim. I made no accusations, I merely asked the questions. Nor did it take long to get the information from the Department of Fair Trading (just asking the question, you understand). But do go knock yourself out. You could be defending yourself against action by other people and organizations, so you may not have time.

If PALE is not involved in operating slaughterhouses, how is it that it and HKM share the same Director/s and/or President?

I don't know who the "both" to which you refer means, but I note that you also threaten "Suzanne" (using a "lawyer"), who you apparently think I am, on Andrew Bartlett's website using the name of "Floss". For Heavens sake, what has "Suzanne" done that you think everyone who questions or disagrees with you is her? As for the person who had to move, he/she has all my sympathy. No-one in their right mind would want to communicate with you directly.

You have driven away everyone on any animal welfare threads, with your abuse and your bullying, and that is such a pity. And so sad for the animals.

Nicky

Nicky I am sure Pale could summons the X Minister for Ag and perhaps this one as well. Both sides of Federal Government are fully aware of whats taken place to stop pale reopening abattoirs to phase out live exports..

I used to post on OLO but I got so sick of you want wanting to post about Animal Welfare I just stopped.

I was the person that arranged for the pay pal to be disablied. I dont have to tell you why. I was also the one who changed it and re activated it about two months ago. It was not actived between 2003 right through to not long ago.
I know Pale does not pay wages . I also am a member of many groups and have been the whole of my life. I was so happy when I found PALE

After working in abattoirs I can say I know unless people who care about animals enter into that business animals will always suffer.

I worked in abattoirs until I moved. I stayed there not because I couldnt get another job but because I was able to make a few small changes to help the animals. I would hear from coming in on the trucks early morning and I could know if something was really wrong and an animal was hurt or very distressed.
I would rush outside and make sure whatever could be done was done. That might not seem like much to you but at least there was someone there who cared. If all the staff were like me I believe it would make a big difference. If I had the money I would buy as many abattoirs as I could and pick my staff and have strick rules.
I as well do the web pages . I do it when I can. I dont get paid and I have other groups I do work for and my children to care for.
Nobody pushes me Nicky. I just help when I can.

So, Taryn, let me get this straight. You arranged for the Paypal link to be disabled in 2003, and have now re-enabled it, all this while PALE has no control over its websites, by its own admission. So you have been doing this for PALE since 2003. And if PALE is not registered to collect funds for charitable purposes, why was it re-enabled (it worked for me last night)? So that PALE CAN collect funds from the public? No-one is questioning the issue of wages, only where the money donated through Paypal has gone since PALE is not registered to collect as a charity.

When did you last update the website/s, BTW? The material there appears to be several years old.

Conversely, however, if is true you were able to "improve" conditions for animals at slaughterhouses, obviously that is a good thing, but was it your choice to work in such environments? And in order to effect change, I would expect that you would need to be a member of the relevant union, and/or working in a management capacity (otherwise I can't quite see slaughtermen taking too much notice of one woman).

There is a pig slaughterhouse in WA which veterinary students from Murdoch University visited not long ago. It is staffed by migrant (non-union) labour, and it would seem that they have brought their third-world practices with them. The students were horrified.

Bringing in migrant workers is not the universal panacea to a labour shortage any more than "open-slather" re-opening of slaughter plants is to the live export trade. That is simply naive and unworkable as we have seen.

If you stopped posting here because I wanted to post about animal welfare, can we take that as an indication of a) the real level of your commitment to animal welfare and b) the fact that you are brought in to defend PALE when it has gone long past the point of being able to defend itself. It seems awfully coincidental that you have suddenly appeared as PALE is steadfastly refusing to answer legitimate questions about its activities.

Nicky

Also, Taryn, of what possible value could "summonsing" the failed Peter McGauran, or Tony Burke be? (Just so you know, Senator Scullion is the Opposition number now, and his silence has been equally deafening) As if, in your wildest dreams, either would be even slightly interested in such a discussion. These people talk to groups like Animals Australia, WSPA and the RSPCA.

PALE has serious delusions of grandeur and an exaggerated notion of its very limited importance in the wider scheme of things. In fact, PALE does not even APPEAR in the wider scheme of things.

BTW, does PALE have a policy on the use of animals in rodeos? Circuses?

Nicky

Nicky
@BTW, does PALE have a policy on the use of animals in rodeos? Circuses?@

Pale does not approve of either.
RSPCA QLD pay for the site to be hosted. Ask them because its none of your business
Yes pale was able to get the woman in USA to agree to go in and make some changes because she insisted the site belonged to Lindy who arranged it with the man who died. It was agreed the petition could be used to collect signatures. That was PALES choice

Just who do you think you are.

I would rather help Pale who works with RSPCA QLD Muslim Leaders and farmers than a bunch of people like you who opposes reopening abattoirs. That’s my! choice.
All NFP can collect a donation .They just cant give a tax deductions. You don’t know anything.

I think you will find AA and many others are also NFP. The only reason pale was registered as a NFP in the first place was to enable helpers like myself and others to be covered under RSPCA QLD insurance as they work in conjunction with them .

Otherwise nobody could go in to the office because insurance is a requirement
@When did you last update the website/s, BTW? @

Its none of your business BUT a web master was paid about eight months ago.

PALE lawyers decided to wait. I am busy and have children and work.
You have no idea why I worked in abattoirs. I was in a position to make a difference in several abattoirs. That’s why! I went


@Bringing in migrant workers is not the universal panacea@
Your must be completely stupid. All industries need staff. It’s the way they are controlled is the problem.

Also Nicky I didn’t suddenly appear. I chose to post because I was so angry. I wont be feeding your sick mind anymore because its of no use to help animals.

You’re a weak coward who hides behind a false name.

TarynW

You state to Nicky that: "You’re a weak coward who hides behind a false name," therefore, I believe you should tell us who "TarynW" is and why she "hide(s) behind a false name?"

I'm inclined to think that you are actually PALE. Am I not correct?

However, TarynW (whoever you are,) I must confess, I have only allowed myself a cursory glance at all the long-winded and totally irrelevant replies you and PALE have presented to Nicky in answer to her simple questions where a simple "Yes" or "No" would have often sufficed.

In the meantime TaryW (whoever you are,) I extracted from my "Favourites," a few historical posts from the animal welfare threads where you indicated that you had only discovered PALE's group in August 2006:

".....I have been looking for a sensible group for a long time to come up with alternatives and I have just joined PALE through reading your posts." Posted by TarynW, Tuesday, 29 August 2006 8:50:18 PM

Then, on this thread you claim: "I was the person that arranged for the pay pal to be disablied. I dont have to tell you why. I was also the one who changed it and re activated it about two months ago. It was not actived between 2003 right through to not long ago."

"2003" hmmmmm? Perhaps I haven't paid sufficient attention. "Nah....forget it Dickie!"

Moving on, I must confess, I really dig Yabby's amusing post on the same thread:

“Animal Welfare”
(http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=18&page=0#1461)

"Celivia, are you aware that if any Aussie exporters are shown not
to comply with our standards, that they will lose their license and
be shut down? Have you ever been through an AQIS audit, to know
how fussy they get? I have and I also happen to know how quickly
they will remove licences, for those who do not comply to standards."
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 21 September 2006 1:52:51 PM

Hehee Yabby - good one. Just shows how devious and hypocritical you are. Has AQIS taken Emanuel's licence off them?

Contd....

Hey Yabby, how about this one?:

"Scout, I live in the middle of this stuff, in rural WA. I don't
live on the Gold Coast. I see shearers here mistreating sheep and
I see farmers too scared to say anything, as they might not have any shearers, due to the labour crisis/resources boom in WA.

"Our Aussie arses are not as clean, as many city slickers think."
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 28 August 2006 8:48:05 PM

So did you report the shearers to the RSPCA, Yabby? No? Never mind. At least you assure us, as you bang on, post after post, that the barbarians in the Middle East aren't like that. After all, they have the Australians who also "mistreat sheep" assisting them and they sure could give the Arabs a lesson or two on how to handle dumb sheep and cover up the evidence eh?

So what can we expect from the next round of bile, Nicky? More fake morality?

I think I'll quit whilst the nausea's tolerable.

Toodle pip.

Dickie, I am so pleased to see you back! Great spotting too - I found the time discrepancy interesting too.

I think it is quite clear that TarynW is PALE, if you look at the spelling, punctuation, grammar and formatting style (not to mention the level of abuse). But I wonder why?

I do not use my own name because the last thing I want is PALE ranting at me directly - as other posters on these fora have discovered if you look at enough of the threads.

I find this quite incomprehensible, I'm afraid:

"RSPCA QLD pay for the site to be hosted. Ask them because its none of your business
Yes pale was able to get the woman in USA to agree to go in and make some changes because she insisted the site belonged to Lindy who arranged it with the man who died. It was agreed the petition could be used to collect signatures. That was PALES choice".

All I wanted were some simple answers. Basically, that was because PALE is so critical of other organizations' fundraising activities, wanting them to invest in its slaughterhouse venture HKM. The other thing I would really like to know is what the status of PALE's relationship with the RSPCA is now, and with AFIC (since it claimed to have hung up the phone on an "AFIC leader" not so long ago. Perhaps TarynW can favour us with the answers, RSPCA Queensland doesn't seem to want to respond to questions that mention PALE. But they might just say it's none of my business, given their reluctance to answer any questions at all.

To continue

(Continued)

Poor Yabby! You have really put him in his place too (yet again, I wonder why he never seems to get the message that the information he provides is the impetus for the wider community despising "livestock" farmers!).

AQIS, so far as I am aware, has never actually taken an exporter's licence away - it (reportedly) suspended Graham Daws (of Emanuels infamy) at one time, but he was a Director of another export company, so continued his operations that way. Just what you'd expect really. The most they do is tell them they are "NAUGHTY PEOPLE", they SHOULD have enough antibiotics on board ships, they SHOULDN'T pack the animals in so tightly, they SHOULD feed them enough - that sort of stuff. And maybe they must carry an AQIS vet on the next voyage following a disaster. Slap on the wrist stuff, nothing more.

Cheers for now,
Nicky

Yabby, do your conscience a favour, and follow this link:

http://www.truveo.com/Live-Export-Animals-Australias-Middle-East/id/4025635471

(And note that Egypt, for one, did not import animals from other countries to replace the lost Australian imports, it increased its imports of chilled meats.

I (and I'm sure Dickie) will be very interested in your comments after you have watched it (which you won't, of course, preferring the gospel according to MLA)

Nicky

Err Dickie, you mean a license should be removed, because a few
sheep were shipped at the wrong time, which were too fat?

The people who work for AQIS are at least a little rational,
unlike you two dreamers.

I stand by what I wrote. AQIS audits can be quite pedantic, they
have the power to remove licences and close businesses down.

But their job is to assist exporters, not destroy industries,
they are far more intelligent then you two fanatics.

As to cruelty, my point remains. Cruelty happens right here
in Australia. To assume that all is well in Australia and
they are all savages in the ME, as you idiots repeat again and again,
is clearly flawed thinking.

Change can happen in the ME, as it can happen here. If you want things to change
in the ME, you are free to get off your little
arses, not simply try to destroy Australian industry.

But then we must remember, animal liberation is what your ideology
is about, as distinct from animal welfare. That is exactly why
you get absolutaly nowhere and people see you for the extremists
which you are. So you are largely ignored. Fair enough

Just answer the questions spiv!

Hello

Nicky nobody has the any interest to contact you.

These people work daily with Muslim Leaders RSPCA QLD and Lawyers. What on earth would you have to offer. I am not trying to be rude but your comment above is laughable.

Why dont you ever listen to some of what Yabbys told you is required to be done to stop live exports. Why do you insist on laying it at the feet of farmers. Its not the farmers please wake up. Its the Industry in bed with The Government. Why dont you take on the industry like we have.
Yabby gave you some good info background on WA abattoirs and PALE posted a link into a WA enquiry into Abattoirs that was kept hush hush.
You didnt even take one bit of notice.

Personally, I think when you tell people not to eat meat you do a lot of damage.
You miss out on public support and that affects the animals. So you have your way and I have mine. Just like pale works to reopen abattoirs to stop live exports.

You work full time to stop pale opening abattoirs. So it goes in circles.
I appreciate your are a fellow animal lover but I don’t agree with your ideas.
This week I have met with farmers and helped to work on diverting live to chilled. That`s what I like to because at least I know am doing what I can.


Pale did ask for assistance to start Muslim Animal Welfare Groups and Farmers support Groups not abattoirs. However that was rejected. That was the end of it.

I can say Pales relationship with RSPCA QLD and Muslim Leaders both in Australia and elsewhere is 'very good.' That much should be crystal clear even to you by now. ( not that its your business.) You were never interested before despite being invited. So too late now sorry.

RSPCA QLD is very busy and I am not surprised they have not responded

Yabby, after viewing the following link - the one which shows YOUR WA sheep being handled in the ME, I am no longer under any illusion that you are just a small-time spiv from the Old Dart.

Indeed not. You are a sick evil bastard - a sordid creep who gets off seeing his livestock tortured!

Now take that back to the other heroes who trade in live animals, you disgusting little snitch!

http://www.truveo.com/Live-Export-Animals-Australias-Middle-East/id/4025635471

Hi all

Yabby, actually,yes, we do expect their licenses to be removed when they cannot even comply with their OWN standards. And what about all the instances we don't know about? The times AQIS has not even been present to ensure compliance (see the Animals Angels reports).

STILL none of this addresses the brutality filmed by Animals Australia at the link I provided. Nothing does or ever will. And you send little lambs to that, and expect the Australian community to have respect for farmers. Interesting to note that the Egyptians had to resort to chilled meat when we stopped sending them animals though.

And we have yet another PALE alter ego, still with the same formatting style and grammatical errors (did I see somewhere that PALE has an interest in a LANGUAGE school?) "TarynW'"s remarks were in a distinctly similar vein; they must swap their passwords around. It's clear that it's one person throughout. "TarynW" is clearly clueless about workplace culture; in the 21st century you do not "control" workers, migrant or otherwise. And these people come from third world countries where animal cruelty is a way of life. The naivete of "Macropod Whisperer" (speaking of aliases! I know whom I am really addressing but I'll indulge the little game) is even more staggering. If farmers did not provide the animals the exporters would not be able to export them. Simple enough for you? The exporters simply play the game and make the big bucks, and collectively they have the government running scared.

As for "public support", MW,if these threads are any indication, PALE has precious little of that. Compare its profile with that of Animals Australia, Animals Angels, WSPA, CIWF, Animal Liberation; in fact, any other group in the world. The others are accountable and transparent about what they do, that's the most significant difference. PALE hides its true intentions behind illusions, and abuses and threatens anyone who disagrees with it. No credibility, I'm afraid. As for taking advice from Yabby about what will end live exports - for God's sake, wake up to yourself/ves.

Nicky

Dickie, your propaganda is similar to that of your old employer,
the Catholic Church, as they preach their philosophy about the
evils of abortion.

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/monica/mm4.htm

I remind you that it is animal liberation groups who employ
"cause related marketing specialists" to tear at the true
believers heart strings. Now either you are a sucker, very
gullible, or stupid, or all three.

I have seen no objective study on slaughter methods in the
ME, just some cause related propaganda, by people who object
to humans eating meat.

You could film all sorts of cruelty in Australia, if you
had an agenda, as these groups do.

If you object to slaughter methods in the ME, you are free
to approach the Australian Govt, to see if they will contribute
to improving them, using a tiny fraction of the billions of $
that we Australians provide in development aid.

Sending Australian farmers broke is not going to change a thing
in the ME. But then sending Australian farmers broke is clearly
on your agenda too, as both you nutters have made plain in the
past. Sorry, think again

Hello Nicky, It is me again Antje.

I thought if I do not interfere for a while all forum readers could see what a (….)person you really are.- you have not disappointed me.

I only hope you can substantiate what you put out there- because I fail to see that information.
You try to drag in other people what ever their profession might be, who dearly care about animals and your obsession is to defame PALE for its work with Muslims leaders of Australia and to re-open abattoirs to stop the suffering of animals.
You went so far to write to every man and his dog to get what ever information about our Organisation. Please do let me know what you find out will you?
The People who run an International Language School are simply good people supporting a fair go for animals. They are supporting the reopening of abattoirs to save animals going live on ships like everybody else on that site including Mark Townend of RSPCA QLD. We choose to work with RSPCAQLD because they are the authorised body for animal welfare in this country.
That does not mean you cant work with animal liberation. I wish you well. Its just that we don’t want the connection.

What is it that you do not understand about PALE?
Pale publicised from day one what it was about.
How it operated, with whom and who was invited to the meetings with Gov reps of Malaysia etc. – but then again it wasn’t your idea was it.
Pales concept is great and it will be put in place at some stage without all the other so called big animal welfare organisations. It`s a matter of time.
Taryn is as real as you and she doesn’t need to use a phoney name.

You would think the so called Animal Welfare groups would support at least the killing of the animals in our own country - but oh no.
So what are they actually doing for the past twenty odd years, If I may ask?

To be continued

continued

I know - turn a blind eye to the cruelty to the suffering animals and don`t eat meat. Ok.

But it does not help the millions of still suffering animals does it?
What are they actually doing about the cruelty to these poor animals? What is their real agenda?

One thing became is crystal clear which was PALE was attacked by animal liberation.
For the record PALE never defamed or attacked any other Organisation or person but has told the naked truth about their behaviour towards us.
You are the sole person defaming and attacking pale and their associates for what reasons? I can assure you its not helping Animals or for that matter AA AL etc

Over the past few years we have been in contact with many Ministers advisors and other leaders of Organisations who stated to us that it would not be in our best interest to be associated with the other animal groups.
We had been advised to keep our own Identity that separates us from some of the others.
Thats what Pale has been doing.
PALE is telling everybody how the Welfare System works and you clearly do not like to read what is posted.
There is no need for you to fall out of the sky and be vicious, malicious and make personal attacks on Members of PALE.
What did you do yesterday to prevent the cruelty to our livestock except for not eating meat?
What about today?

Tell me your Solution to the animal live exports so we can divert our precious time back to helping them?
I await your constructive reply.

Antje

I find it fascinating that PALE and its alter-egos continue/s to malign and impugn every other animal advocacy organization for not choosing to be involved with its slaughterhouse enterprise, expecting total impunity, yet when anyone asks questions of PALE, it is "defamation". All in the same formatting style too.

"Macropod Whisperer" (speaking of "phoney" names), I only contacted one organization (so far), as it happens, and that was because PALE would not answer the very simple, direct and reasonable questions I asked. If PALE has nothing to hide and is as "proud" of its activities as it claims, it should not have been a problem answering them as others do. Instead, I continued to receive tirades of barely coherent abuse and threats.

I have provided the information the Queensland Department of Fair Trading gave me; that PALE is not registered for the purposes of collecting funds as a charity. That is a matter of fact (therefore does not even approach any test for "defamation").

PALE claims that everyone who chooses not to eat meat is "not helping the animals" - can you not see how totally ridiculous that claim is? PALE claims to have the solution to end live exports, but provides no evidence that it has had any impact at all.

PALE says it has contacted all the animal advocacy groups over the years trying to get them involved (in slaughterhouse operations) then says that it chose/was advised not to have those connections. Please at least get your "ducks in a row" before you make worse idiots of yourself/ves with your contradictions.

What did I do today? I prepared a prosecution brief for the local police over several dozen starving sheep at a saleyard, and developed an information flyer for the Police Academy to provide them with relevant information on the distinction between POCTAA legislation and the Code/s of Practice for saleyards and for land transport (after working a 9 hour day). What did you do? Sit around trying to work out how to get even with the wicked Nicky and what name to use?

Nicky

My name is Antje Struthmann I am not going to be bothered to argue with a person who clearly has a problem. My name is known world wide and was well know before I moved to QLD to work with PALE.

If you were so informed you would know who I am. Please also remember you were invited to contact me by phone a long time ago when you first starting spreading your lies.

I came from Germany so there is no way anybody could mistake me.
Also the codes are not enforceable. Your helping the police out is a huge embarrassment for all of us.
Now just for the record PALE contacted QLD Department of Fair Trading to obtain a copy of your enquiry/ complaint and discuss this alligation with them.
They said that they have nothing what so ever on record of a complaint/enquiry. . They said that even if you had of called they would have told you any NFP can take a donation but can not give a tax deduction.
As PALE is funded by RSPCA QLD and ALL the details are presented each year I think its you who need to be worried about legal action. $65.00 BTW is what has been taken from the public in six years!( I told you it was disabled) I also I told you I sold my property to do this and I know the founder actually borrowed on one of hers to keep things going. Mostly however as I said it’s RSPCA QLD who fund most. Muslim leaders of course assist regarding office costs under our MOU. So there you go!

So don’t you look stupid now. Wow a whole $65.00. Even Fair Trading laughed however we sent your posts up to them anyway to keep on record. Actually our accountant has had to write explain why there are so few funds raised year after year.
Do you know what the person from fair trading said Nicky? “For goodness sake why don’t you sue.

contiuned

@PALE claims that everyone who chooses not to eat meat is "not helping the animals" @
No Nicky that is not what I said. We have many veggie members too for goodness sake. What I said was that we had to have a better plan to help reopen abattoirs to phase out live exports other than just telling people not to eat meat. We have to get animal lovers actually involved in the industry to reopen abattoirs to stop live exports. That is what I said.
Now our veggie members work in shoulder to shoulder everyday with other members and don’t have a problem with that. It seems you don’t really agree with what’s on most web sites after all= It says Ban Live Exports and replace with chilled. We are trying to make that happen. So what’s your problem?

-@ PALE says it has contacted all the animal advocacy groups over the years trying to@
Yes many years ago we did ask AA AL to meet with Muslim Leaders and farmers that is rue. They declined and they black listed our organisation saying we were involved in abattoirs.
Rather sad really. However of course they are free to do as they wish. I note however many have written and contacted Muslim Leaders knowing of our MOU with them for Animal Welfare.
So really I personally feel that their only problem is utter jealousy because such a young group did what they should have done years ago. It was wonderful pale was able to arrange a media release from Muslim Leaders to support Lyn White.

What did I do?

Obtained several statements regarding poultry being lowered ALIVE into fires to burn their feathers off! And THEN lowered into hot water STILL ALIVE! Before having their throats cut. Then contacted 60 minutes etc. Tried to contact Animal Liberation but they had the DPI phone number up to report abuse!? Whos kidding Who! Oh BTW this is Halal So Don’t say we are not even handed!

PALE, you are SUCH an embarassment to yourself. You need to keep your various identities straight, you see. It was "TarynW" who claimed to have disabled the Paypal link, THREE YEARS before she said she had joined PALE. I am aware of who Antje Struthman is (although what makes her think the wider community is or should be is a mystery), what is surprising is the outlandish claims made in her name here, still in the same written style of PALE. Sharing password details is very poor business practice, you know.

As for my helping the Police, you have no idea at all. You do not know the level of my knowledge (it is well documented on various threads on which I have clarified the distinction between legislation, Codes of Practice and enforcement). The Police have to date been most appreciative of my assistance and evidence briefs.The level of knowledge of PALE (not to mention its contribution) is possibly another story altogether. As for contacting Animal Liberation about the chickens, what did you expect them to do (given your often expressed criticism of their methods)? ALQ has no powers under the Animal Welfare legislation in Queensland, and in fact your complaint SHOULD have been directed to the DPI, since RSPCA Queensland only does "companion animals" and not animals used in farming. A stunning example of PALE's level of knowledge.

The response I received from the Queensland Department of Fair Trading was quoted on these threads, but I'm quite sure that they they would know better that to want to disclose a private enquiry to the litigious PALE. Why on earth should they? And we only have your words about the sums raised, don't we?

(Continues)

(Continued)

There is nothing especially surprising about the other organizations choosing not to associate themselves with PALE because of its clear and direct involvement in abattoirs. No "animal loving" group would consider such an involvement if it worthy of the name.

While PALE and HKM share common "office bearers" there is a clear link between an organization claiming to be for animal welfare and one that is involved with mass slaughter, and money to change hands in the process. What did you expect? But the reality is probably that that was not the real reason, it has more to do with how PALE abuses, bullies and threatens people and its insatiable drive for control, and any glory that might be around (such as claiming the credit for the AFIC media release).

That's probably the one thing PALE is good at - trying to take credit for the work of other people.

Nicky

*No "animal loving" group would consider such an involvement if it worthy of the name.*

Bollocks. That is as logical as saying that no person can approve
of abortion, if they love babies.

Fact is, either you are away with the fairies about the realities
of life and the world, or you are a realist and accept and understand
nature.

You Nicky, are clearly away with the fairies, when it comes to
reality.

Yabby, you missed the point, as you usually do. No animal advocacy group (and this is just my understanding and would be my expectation of any group should I decide to join one) is that none would want to be part of an organization which shares office bearers/President with a slaughtering operation which could potentially be a source of funding for those office bearers.

I have an excellent relationship with the AMIEU, as it happens, but that doesn't mean I would want a financial involvement with it. We are both clear about our positions. The abortion questions is, as always, totally irrelevant.

Nicky.

Nicky, the abortion issue is not irrelevant at all, for you make
similar claims to the Catholics. One claims the sanctity of the
zygote, the other the sanctity of all other species. Fact is,
reality prevails, there is not room for all the little darlings.

Once again, you are confusing animal welfare and animal liberation,
when you adopt your philosophical position.

You still cannot even get your little mind around why the live
trade exists in the first place. I just heard of another case
where one meatworks in WA closed down 10 years ago, through sheer
union bloodymindedness. Once people think they have a captive market,
they screw the system for all its worth.

We have another case now in WA. The Boyles were planning a meatworks
in York. 3 years of red tape later, the investors pulled the pin
and went elsewhere. For those sorts of reasons, the live trade
exists in the first place!

I have told Gertrude before that I think she is a dreamer and will
never achieve anything. But that does not change the fact that if
there was an efficient meat industry in WA, with open and fair
competition, there would hardly be a live trade.

The only people that I know who have an issue with meatworks are
not people concerned with animal welfare, but people concerned with
animal liberation, two quite distinct philosophies. You confuse
the two and we clearly know what your position is.

Yabby, as I have pointed out before - don't bitch about it, do something about it. I don't care why the live trade exists (although it all has to do with greed) and if farmers go broke when it ends they deserve to, because they know what has been happening to their animals for decades, and even now don't care.

And spare us the MLA gospel about "improvements" in the Middle East, we have seen the evidence, and continue to send it world-wide.

There is absolutely no relationship with the Catholic church, banks or anyone else. If you people, with your powerful lobby groups, can't fix the problems over there, may I suggest you are wasting your money on them? Don't blame the unions, or the resources boom, blame your own inefficiencies. I think we've all heard enough of farmers' whingeing.

It may take time, but we will stop this, by ongoing international exposure. Perhaps we may be able to follow up wool boycotts with boycotts of Australian meat, and who knows where we can go from there?
I have no problems with devoting my resources to it for as long as it takes.

Nicky

* Perhaps we may be able to follow up wool boycotts with boycotts of Australian meat, and who knows where we can go from there?*

ROFL, that would mean even more live sheep ships to take the lot
to the ME :) You are not the smartest bit of gear dear.

West Australian farmers have very little lobbying ability. Last
time I checked, the WAFF were not even members of NFF, as they
could not afford the bill. State wise, they have no lobbying ability,
as the Govt is controlled by city votes, so the rural vote has
no significance.

I've told you before, farmers coops don't work, as farmers are
isolated individuals on their farms, so managers do as they please.

The thing is, farmers are primary producers. We don't bake your
bread of make your breakfast cereal. We provide the ingredients.
Secondary manufacture happens in cities. City people make the
rules, not farmers.

If you city slickers have so little ability, that you cannot
move primary products from the farm gate to world markets, with
any kind of efficiency, we have little option but to do it without
you, thus the live trade.

As to the Catholic Church, you missed the point. Same philosophy
on your part, different species, that is all. Just as fanatical it
seems

Yabby, you are incredibly short sighted. Fuel costs are going to spell the end of the crappy old ships you use (and we see no progress on Siba Ships bright shiny new ones since 2005 - not that their track record is anything to be proud of with the ships they have had here).

Why should anyone else have to organize your transport for you? No other industry expects or gets the largesse that the primary industry sector gets, or brings the country into such disrepute as you do.

But I'm sure we can organize boycotts that will accommodate you better if we put our minds to it. Being shown internationally as being right up there amongst the world's most cruel countries internationally is bound to take its toll if we keep at it.

The farming lobby groups appear to be unable to even organize themselves as a rational, coherent body, it seems.

Nicky

Nicky, you don't need to organise any transport. The live shippers
are doing it all. Those two ships are being built, as I explained
before. You don't buy specially built ships off the shelf, in the
middle of a world shipping shortage. I was talking to a Wellard
rep just the other day. There is actually some web stuff all about
them somewhere.

As to your claimed largesse, I think you are confusing WA and the
Eastern States. What largesse comes to Western Australia? WA
is largely seen as a cash cow by the East, to be milked for every
Dollar. We generate about half the country's exports, with just
10% of the population. We think globally, unlike you lot, who
clearly cannot compete globally. WA farming remains the most
efficient in Australia.

Boycott whatever you like, somehow I don't think that Arabs will
take much notice of you :) The EU is free to open its markets to
our meat, something that is largely denied right now. So we send
even more to the ME.

You are quite correct, the farming lobby is not very effective,
that is why WA farmers get such a raw deal. Cities and their
voters come first, WA farmers are right at the bottom of the pile.

Well, they certainly don't take any notice of the animal welfare standards of the International Organization for Animal Health in the Middle East, do they?

And I take it that it is your own estimation that you are efficient.

Spare us the histrionics about how badly off WA farmers are too, we've heard it all before.

Nicky

*And I take it that it is your own estimation that you are efficient.*

Actually not so. Over the years there have been various studies
quoted in the media. Even Tony Burke was surprised and dropped
his jaw, when he came over. WA farms are much larger then in the
East, with 500+ hp tractors, the most advanced no-till gear in Australia
and are pioneers of much new technology.

Now if you'd like to tell me about all this money that is given
to WA farmers, I would love to know about it.

* we've heard it all before.*

You clearly don't have the foggiest about WA farming, you live
thousands of km from here. If it was up to me, we would have
seceded long ago. Thank your lucky stars that we generate so much
export wealth for you, for clearly you do not have the ability to
do it yourselves.

But hey, keep on your present little fanatical path. Its got you
nowhere in 25 years or so, I can't see that changing. Look around
you, nobody is taking any notice. People understand what a bunch
of fanatics we farmers are dealing with on this issue.

Despite me having absolutaly no confidence in Gertude achieving
anything, at least she undestands the solution, which you lot
clearly don't. Bankrupting thousands of farmers is simply not
going to happen. Think again.

Yabby
A message from Gertrude for you- She said thanks for the vote of confidence:) and also to tell you its a bit hard when you have a mob with the mentality of Nicky about.

There 'has been' some changes in QLD= other states./. Several have chilled in place of live.

This libber lot could have helped to divert live to chilled but as you see what they are like.

Also that fyi FF and PA have had many direct enquiries from overseas buyers wanting to look at opening abattoirs.

Gertrude cant post at the moment. GY didnt like her comment on forum owners.

I can say personally you are so right about the liberation lot.

This thread is only a small example of what they are like.



People like Nicky follow like sheep with no idea of the industry. I loved this comment

@(Yabby, as I have pointed out before - don't bitch about it, do something about it.@?

Note Yabby how the only lot run by Gertrude has been treated. What a joke she says do something about it!

Its interesting that Nicky still prefers to hide behind a false name while myself Antje Struthmann and RSPCA QLD along with Gertrude are happy to be open and upfront.
Oh No Of course Nickys not speaking on behalf of the others. Of Course Ha!

Not one thought of her own on this forum in over two years.

Then she goes on with this-

(I don't care why the live trade exists ...

Yabby I cant understand how people can be so stupid. Of course we need to understand why the live trade exists !
In order to fix anything you must fully understand the reason for it in the first place.
No wonder why the Government dont take them seriously.

What terribly damage these people do towards Animal Welfare to make such irresponsible statements

Yabby, the level of exports from WA has rather more to do with the fact that it has by far the largest land mass, and is fortunate enough to have major resource deposits, than the "efficiency" or otherwise of farmers. And think tax breaks, diesel subsidies, drought relief, flood relief, and Centrelink benefits just for starters.

It is a matter of good fortune, nothing more. As for "thinking globally" if part of that is condemning millions of your animals to what you know is unspeakable cruelty, don't expect accolades from any decent, thinking Australian.

"Macropod Whisperer", it is quite clear that the person posting in that name is the same person who normally posts as 'PALE', just as recent posts by "TarynW" are the same. I did suggest that sharing passwords around is very poor business practice, but of course PALE cannot help itself, while criticizing others for doing the same.

Please spare us the theatricals about other people using pseudonyms. Most of us who have ever been in any form of exchange with PALE do so to ensure that PALE can never contact us directly - for obvious reasons contained in the deranged, abusive and insulting posts in the various threads here, and the responses from other people you have treated like you treat me. I can post some if you wish.

As for anyone else doing untold damage to the animal welfare movement, I think PALE can take the sole credit for having set back the movement decades through its undermining and denigrating the tremendous work of others in the animal advocacy community. PALE pays lip-service to farmers simply because it suits its agenda to do so in order to expand its slaughterhouse interests, nothing more. PALE would do deals with anyone, at the expense of anyone (including, and especially, the animals) to further its own interests. Other animal advocacy groups would never, I believe, want to profit from the slaughter of animals.

Nicky

Er Nicky, farmland is farmland. Efficent farmers can exist anywhere
in Australia. You will find that WA farmers are far ahead. Just
look at the no till story and many others. But then you know
nothing about WA, or its farmers.

So you think that fuel is subsidised? You mean we should pay tax
for not driving on the roads? For driving around farms? What
drought and flood subisidies come to WA? You clearly have
done no homework at all on this, just all top of your head stuff,
as you think that things are the same all over Australia. Think
again.

So you think that when a farmer builds a new shearing shed and
claims it over 30 years, that is a tax break? What about the many
taxes on inputs that farmers pay, to subsidise you lot? Yet we
sell mainly in third world markets, competing with the rest of
the world. Agro economics is clearly not your field Nicky.

It is just your good fortune, that you are born in a country like
Australia, which has such efficient farmers. Lets face it, if
WA seceded, as many still talk about, you would be living in a
banana republic.

Farmers sell their livestock. Alot are sold at auctions. It is up
to buyers what to do with them. If you are unhappy about some buyers,
you are free to buy them. Put up or shut up.

Gertrude, I have no confidence in you at all lol. I just think that
you weren't influenced by some of the crapola that people like Nicky
learnt, when they went to University and people like Singer were the
fashion of the day. Some got sucked in and even now, Nicky cannot
answer the hard philosophical questions. It is just so, because
she says so. Just like a true religious believer

Yabby, I was not born, nor did I grow up, in Australia. And why should you not pay for the fuel (and gas guzzlers) you use, regardless of where you drive them? It's not as if you don't already contribute far more to climate change than you should, farming livestock.

And in what way do you people subsidize us. for God's sake? It's our tax dollars that pay for your tax breaks, Centrelink benefits and fuel subsidies. Also, the fact that you cannot market your "product" effectively in Australia is what causes you to sell to "third world markets. None of that absolves you of the heinousness of exporting animals to the fate that you know they face, but do not care.

You people should think less about yourselves and your misplaced claims about what you contribute to the economy, and more about (just as an example) the displaced meat workers and THEIR families.

There is no justification for what you do and you know it. It just isn't worth going over the same old ground again and again, particularly with your self-adjusted view of the economy.

Nicky

*And why should you not pay for the fuel (and gas guzzlers) you use, regardless of where you drive them?*

Nicky, are you just pretending to be so thick? Cars travel on
roads, which need to be built, maintained, etc, at a cost of
billions. Tractors, seeding a crop, do not cost a cent in terms
of wearing out roads. Its no different for mining, fishing,
power generation, aircraft, etc. etc. Go back in history and see
why fuel taxes were introduced in the first place. User pays, if
you wear out the roads and want them built, so pay your share.
Do not burden the growing of wheat with road building taxes,
unless you want wheat growers to subsidise the roads that you
drive on.

You of course forget completely, that livestock fertilise paddocks,
which grow pasture, which uses CO2 to grow. Less pasture means
less stored soil carbon. Soil carbon levels rise under pasture.

*It's our tax dollars that pay for your tax breaks, Centrelink benefits and fuel subsidies.*

Ok, so far you can't point out any subsidies, centrelink benefits
apply to all Australians, meantime farmers pay taxes on farm
inputs, to subsidise you. Exports create wealth Nicky, farming
and mining are what does it for Australia.

* Also, the fact that you cannot market your "product" effectively in Australia is what causes you to sell to "third world markets.*

So you think we should not be growing wheat, to feed the world and
pay for your imports?

*the displaced meat workers and THEIR families.*

So where are they? Why don't they take the jobs being offered?

Yabby, so you think WA farmers support the rest of the country. May I refer you to the Australian Bureau of Statistics:

http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/1350.0Jul%202008?OpenDocument

Look at "Employed Persons by Industry", and Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, and see just what a contribution that industry makes compared with Business and Property Services, Manufacturing, Construction and Retail.

Western Australia's contribution to national job vacancies is less than half that of NSW, and substantially less than that of Victoria or Queensland.

Furthermore:

Exports of fresh/frozen meat was up 8.4% in the year 2006-2007.

Live sheep exports fell by 13% to 1.1 million in March quarter 2008. Gross value fell by 26% for the quarter, down to $67.3 million. Unit value fell by 15% to $60.31.

The trend estimate for sheep slaughterings increased for the eleventh consecutive month, to 1.1 million, and was 14% higher than the same time last year.

The trend estimate for mutton production continued to rise for the eleventh consecutive month, to 23,400 tonnes, and was 23% higher than same period last year.

www.liveexportcare.com claims:

Modern farming generates $103 billion-a-year in production for the national economy (underpinning 12% of GDP)

Chapter 14 of the 2007 ABS Yearbook is dedicated to Australian Agriculture and states:

‘While Australian Agriculture no longer contributes a large share of gross domestic product (GDP) – averaging around 3% in recent years – it utilizes a large proportion of natural resources, accounting for 70% of water consumption and almost 60% of Australia’s land use. The gross value of total Australian agricultural production in 2004-05 was $35.6 billion. (Source: ABS Product: 7501.0).

Official Australian ABS data beyond a broad industry level is not published in the Yearbook however, the table clearly shows that employment in the Agricultural sector has decreased by over 81,300 the last 5 years

Great website and sends some messages, don't you think?
Nicky

*Modern farming generates $103 billion-a-year in production for the national economy (underpinning 12% of GDP)*

There you go Nicky, first point.

Second point, trading houses does not pay overseas bills. You need
exports. WA, with 10% of the population, generates around 50%
of Australia's exports. Fact is, without us, you would live
in a banana republic, with the Australian peso as your currency!

Most of Australia simply cannot compete in a global market, as
in international terms, you are too hopeless. Benchmarked globally,
West Australian farming is right at the top. That is despite
having to buy costly inputs, loaded with taxes and charges, from
you lot.

You like other Australians, rode on the sheep's back for years.
Every economist will accept that.

Don't talk to me about subsidies darling, they have been shoved
up your butts over there for years, including the education
industry, mv industry and just about every other industry.

Yabby, please read the paragraph immediately under the fatuous and fraudulent comment by www.liveexportcare.com, which states the facts from the ABS Year Book. Perhaps the period that "Australia rode on the sheep's back" derives from when the country was so primitive it couldn't do anything much else. Now it clearly can, as the stats by industry and by state demonstrate - or perhaps you didn't read those either.

Nicky

*Now it clearly can, *

Now it can? I remind you that farming and mining still dominate
exports. Despite all this, Australia still runs a current account
deficit of around 6% of GDP. We have two economies. One focussed
globally, the other relying on local protection, as they are
unable to compete globally.

Like I said - you either didn't read the stats or you couldn't understand them. You really need to get over that over-exaggerated notion of your own importance (to the economy, and recognize that you are now a drain on the Australian community - particularly the environment).
Nicky

Funnily enough Nicky, economists agree with me, a few left wing
animal liberationists, who know zilch about economics, might not.

Tough titties as they say :)

"I remind you that farming and mining still dominate
exports."

I see the Yabby is still in La La Land. Lamb exports come in around second last. However, Australia's principal export markets in 2007, for Australian lamb (dead meat that is), was the US and the Middle East.

The major export market for mutton (dead) was Saudia Arabia.

In 2007, Australian lamb exports totalled 161,037 tonnes (shipped weight). Over the same period, 149,734 tonnes of Australian mutton was exported.

The estimate for minerals and energy exports for 2007/2008 is $110 billion - up $2 billion from the previous year.

Live exports of sheep in 2007 realised a paltry $262 million.

However, the predatory meat cartel's penchant to export live animals affects Australia's GDP by many millions of dollars per annum.

Ignorant know-alls rely entirely on the sustainability of their bank balance - not Australia's fragile environment. Our resident know-all masks his greed by spruiking on about the economy, earth worms, the holy father, secession, city slickers, hormones and other billious tripe.

But then when you think of the long and gloomy history of these misfits' inhumanity to other species, you will discover how many hideous crimes have been committed in the name of economic rationale.

And who better to "enlighten" us on economic rationale than our disgusting in-house sadistic beast and master-of-muck, Yabby, who should have been deported decades ago.

Ah Dickie, another fanatic. Perhaps you have a point. Those evil
farmers are actually going out making a living and feeding people,
wow, now that is evil!

Perhaps farmers don't matter after all. They did a great experiment
in Zimbabwe, threw the farmers off their farms and nature took its
course. Given your understanding of economics, we could have
an economy just a good as Zimbabwe! Ever thought of migrating?

Yabby, you continue to be blinded by your own self-importance. Can you please quantify the exact value to the economy of (for the year 2006-2007):

Live animal exports
Frozen/chilled meat exports
Other agricultural exports (grains and other crops)

Education
Business services
Tourism
Retail

Just some examples for comparative analysis. This is in view of the fact that agriculture contributes just 3% of GDP.

You might also, in your self-professed wisdom, quantify the opportunity cost of live exports in relation to the frozen meat trade (assuming that you understand the term "opportunity cost", of course).

Dickie clearly does. Against all that, the cost of livestock farming to the environment should also be factored in. It should be noted too that most people who receive Centrelink benefits are subject to an Activity Test - but not farmers.

Nicky

All that you have shown so far Nicky, is how little you understand
about how economies work. But then of course you will say anything to try
and run down farming, we know that.

Your very own quote should have made you sit up and take notice:

*Modern farming generates $103 billion-a-year in production for the national economy (underpinning 12% of GDP*

So I shall try and explain it slowly, so that even you understand:

Primary wealth generators are critical to any economy. The Saudis
and others have oil wells, Europe, Japan, China etc have manufacturing,
we have farming and mining. “ Nicky’s doggie walking service “
can add to GDP, its just not critical.

I remind you that our current account deficit runs at around 6% of GDP.
That is the highest in the developed world. Beyond that you are heading
for banana republic status, with Pakistan and South Africa at 8% and
interest rates to match. In other words, given that we cannot pay our
overseas bills, we rely on overseas investors to lend us the money each
month. As our current account worsens, they charge more.

So each time another boatload of wheat is exported, not only is it critical
for our current account, but in effect that money will circulate around 4-6
times in the economy, as all the hangers on turn it over. Farmers, miners,
buy things, which employ people, which employ other people, etc. etc.

That is why your 3% of GDP turns into more like 12% of GDP. Manufacturers,
service providers etc, rely on primary wealth creators to function.

If farming stopped tomorrow, not only would your current account and interest
rates go through the roof, as you borrowed ever more in a spiral, your unemployment
would rocket and your economy would crash, your peso would have to try
and pay for food imports on top of that. You clearly underestimate the importance
of farming to our economy.

Farming will be here next year, as people have to eat. The tourists and students
might not be.

Yabby, that is absolute rubbish and you know it. The original quote came from the LiveExportCare website and was shown immediately below to be fraudulent. And you didn't answer my questions - as always.

"Official Australian ABS data beyond a broad industry level is not published in the Yearbook however, it is clearly indicated that employment in the Agricultural sector has decreased by over 81,300 the last 5 years. The ABS uses the Australian and New Zealand Standard Industrial Classification (ANZSIC) to determine the predominant industry in which a person works and does not have a specific classification code for people for whom it could be determined are employed solely in the live export industry. Indeed, ABS major economic indicators such as the Average Weekly Earnings Survey do not even include the Agricultural industry division when collecting and compiling data".

(Prepared by an ABS statistician)

But let's go back to the original topic of this thread. Do you think the way imported animals are handled and slaughtered in the Middle East is acceptable?

Nicky

Nicky, of course its not rubbish, its basic economics, but that is
clearly a field you know very little about. Its no different to
the mining industy. Total direct employment of people hardly matters,
its the overall effect on the economy that is crucial. As anyone
will tell you, mining is once again absolutaly crucial to the
Australian economy, despite directly employing very few.

But money spent by mining companies, for machines, materials,
services,
etc etc is absolutaly enormous. Export wealth generated
by mining, in terms of boatloads of coal or iron-ore, is once
again very crucial to Australian well being.

Farms are no different. Productivity is generated by larger and
larger machines, as with mining, but the wealth returned to the
economy is extremely important.

As to the ME, some animals are handled acceptably, some perhaps
not. We have seen no objective studies on this, just some
propaganda. But then some animals are not handled acceptably in
Australia either. Mind you, defining what is acceptable is
quite different in my terms or your terms. You still think that
hogtying a sheep is unacceptable, anyone knowing about sheep would
strongly disagree with you. They are different to dogs, no need
to hog tie them, as they react differently. That is the bottom
line

Yabby, you need no help from anyone to discredit Australian farmers, you do a great job of that yourself, telling us what is "common practice" on Australian farms.

I think you should (as was suggested on another thread) take yourself on a trip on, say the "Al Kuwait:, or the "Maysora" (not the "Becrux", and spend the time with the animals. See, for example, with the penning arrangements, how many animals can reach the feed/water, and how much of the time it is full of excrement from animals penned above.

Going back to the question of AQIS, I refer you once again to the mortality reports that have been released, which, almost without exception, note that the animals did not have the "mandated period" in "registered premises" (feedlots), that exporters must provide more space on the ships, they must carry an AQIS veterinarian on a subsequent voyage and/or they mush carry enough medical supplies. Those are clear, identifiable and quantifiable breaches of the ALES. But do we see sanctions of any meaning by AQIS? Never. And it has nothing to do with "intelligence" and everything to do with inefficiency and laziness on the part of AQIS, if the reports by Animals Angels stating that they have had to CALL AQIS to attend loadings in Fremantle are any indication.

And that's while the animals are still, in theory, under the protection of the POCTAA legislation of whatever state from which they are departing. Based on that, you can't even get it right in Australia, and who knows how many mishaps have gone unreported.

As for "objective studies" on practices in the Middle East, filmed evidence does not lie. The gospel according to MLA clearly does though.

Nicky

*you do a great job of that yourself, telling us what is "common practice" on Australian farms.*

Nicky, I tell you the reality and I do not shy away from it. Things
are done for good reasons. That you don't understand those reasons,
knowing nothing about livestock and farming, explains it all.
Some people are ignorant and they can't be helped. You are a classic
case of that.

Once again you raise the issue of sheep poo. You still don't know
that on farms, sheep commonly camp in one spot, on their own poo,
week after week. In Africa they make floors of the stuff. It
is not like your poo, but then all this is way over your head
yet once again.

AQIS are doing fine, as usual you just want something else to
quibble about. Hey, fanatics like you work in every Govt dept,
pushing pencils. They hold up productivity and cost everyone
heaps. We are used to them.

Filmed evidence can be used to create propaganda, for we can
film evidence of cruelty to animals, to humans and to just
about anything else, in every country of the world. You are
not about presenting objective information, but are about propaganda
to promote your cause and philosophy. Ok we know that, we take
that into account and take little notice of you. We then rely
on more qualified and less fanatical people for our information.

Yabby, of course you would think AQIS is doing fine. That's because they are apparently rarely present to do their job. My own observations of loadings demonstrated that as well, and I have photographic evidence of manifest failure of AQIS, and the other authorities present (few and far between as they were). But you wouldn't have read those mortality reports, would you?

Sheep choosing to stand amongst odd deposits of excrement is one thing; force feeding it to them on ships, and having them swim in it and urine while trying to breathe ammonia fumes is rather different (think 25-30 year old "closed" carriers like the "Merino (aka Cormo) Express" and the "Al Messilah". The old car transporters. Perhaps you should do your trip on one of those, providing you agree not to leave the hold in which the animals are confined for the duration, and you go to a pre-determined number of slaughtering facilities).

You accuse me/us about promoting propaganda. Read some of your own posts. I know whose reality I would rather trust and it isn't someone who openly admits to abusing his own animals for profit.

Nicky

Deary me Nicky, what melodrama. The animals on my farm lead far
more free and natural lives then your domestic pets!

Do you know anything about livestock nutrition at all? Nitrogen
coming out the back is only an issue, if too much is going in at
the front. So nutritionists adjust feed formulas to include less
protein. Sheep poo is fairly dry when they are on dry feed and
any pee is soon evaporated by the air systems. Fact is that
in the paddocks, sheep on sheep camps spend months camping on
the same spot, for 5-6 hours a day. But you just once again
want to quibble about things that you don't understand.

I doubt if AQIS would pay much attention as to what you or
other wharf demonstrators think. Perhaps they keep away as some
look like they have not had a wash for weeks!

But you shuffle your papers there, it keeps you occupied

Hardly melodrama, Yabby, it is filmed and documented fact. I think I asked you before somewhere if you could refer me to any scientific studies available on "shy-feeding" (starvation) and the respiratory diseases that afflict animals on these ships as a result of ammonia fumes, and you were unable to do so.

There are also reports available about the efficiency (or in fact otherwise) of the air systems on these crappy old ships too, and the fact that they are frequently not even used once the ships leave Australian waters, because they are costly to run. There is a world of difference between closed and open decked carriers in this regard. BTW, three years does seem rather a long time to build two livestock carriers, regardless of your protestations, I'd suggest, and you couldn't provide any updates on that either.

If you are playing in sheep droppings all day, I'd suggest that wharf protesters (of whom I may or not be one) would be far cleaner than you are.

AQIS doesn't pay a whole lot of attention to anything much in the live animal trade either really, whether it is protesters or other authorities. That much is self-evident.

Are you going to take up my challenge?

Nicky

To Yabby c/- Pathological Liars No Liabilities

Report (2008)

A special risk of high humidity occurs in sheep pens if the faecal pad breaks up and becomes effectively a slurry. The floors of the ship decks are impervious and, unlike cattle pens which are cleaned out on a regular basis, the faeces and urine from sheep is allowed to accumulate for the duration of the voyage.

Normally, a hard pad is formed, which makes a suitable lying surface for the sheep. However, in very humid conditions, a slurry is formed, which will probably reduce the welfare of the sheep. On other occasions, sea water may wash onto lower decks, causing the faecal pad again to turn into a slurry. This can cause mortality in the sheep, but would also reduce welfare by potentially water-logging the animals or causing them to stand in water. Some ships are fitted with walls that can be erected to protect against the ingress of sea water on lower decks, but they reduce ventilation and are only erected in high seas.

High ammonia concentrations, can probably be addressed by controlling feed nitrogen content and cleaning procedures, but again there would be a significant cost to the industry. Further research is undoubtedly needed on this topic. It seems likely that further research is required before a precise model of nitrogen inputs to ammonia output can be constructed.

The livestock exporters are keenly aware of the threat to their industry arising from public perceptions of some operators’ inadequate attention to welfare, but it must be remembered that they are only one part of the chain of management of livestock from when they are first received until the point of departure. This contrasts with the relative lack of control over the export process when the animals are in their country of destination, which makes the practice ethically questionable.

The standards which have evolved over more than 20 years of experience are those that lead to maximum financial gain for the exporter and not optimum welfare of the stock. Exporters are driven by financial objectives, so this is not surprising.

For you Nicky, I would hardly lift a finger lol. You are simply
not worth the bother. There was a conference in Perth involving
all the scientific community and others who work on live sheep
issues, just a month or two ago. They do the research, they have the papers, they
write the papers. If you are so keen, chase them up.

I have no need to play in sheep droppings, the sheep do that. But
interestingly, they hardly smell at all and you don't even
get dirty, as they are like round marbles or smarties. But then
you know so little about sheep, you would not even know that.

Check the specifications that ships have to comply with, to find out just
how much air that is circulated on these boats. I certainly hope
that they switch them off when its really windy at sea, or it
would be too windy in there. I agree, open sided ships would
be better then close sided ships. But then the animal liberationists
claim that they are not protected from the weather. One can't win
with you lot as no matter what the trade does, you still complain.

If you people spent a bit of time looking at animal cruelty right
there in your suburbs, your time would be better spent. But then
you are obsessed with the live trade and of course it raises lots
of revenue for some groups, as they market their propaganda, put
together by cause related marketing specialists.

Great to hear that AQIS take no notice of you.

Hi Dickie

Is that from the RSPCA's report by Bidda Jones? I've read similar before, but we knew it was true anyway, didn't we? When sheep are standing in "slurry" (molten manure, basically) for such periods they are also at risk of footrot/lameness, and that's why many cannot walk when they arrive.

That also bears out my point about insufficient research having been carried about ammonia levels and their effects (refer "Maysora" voyage of cattle, October 2006. On that voyage, on which nearly 500 cattle died, either on board or straight after arriving in Israel, it was also found that southern bred cattle were exported at a time of the year when the ALES prohibits that without substantial "heat-stress modelling" - done by the exporters, of course!). They are so good at complying with their OWN standards!

Cheers!
Nicky

Hi Nicky

I guess you've seen the following report - right in Yabby's home town?

01.06.2008 | Australia | Port of Fremantle

Animals’ Angels observe and document the transport of 18240 sheep in 32 transports to the live export ship; Al Messilah. This ship arrived from Portland Victoria with sheep already on board and will load more sheep for Bahrain.

There are no West Aust government AWU general inspectors at the port to ensure the welfare of the animals. It is Sunday and no one is available in government to take any calls.

We call the AQIS inspector and inform him of issues such as sheep sitting and laying on other sheep when there is room in the truck to spread the animals out more, lack of height for sheep to stand without hitting their heads or backs on the roof, sheep with extensive shearing cuts, sheep with eye problems, possible downer and blind sheep on the trucks.

We also ask him to watch a person who uses an electrical shock prodder in many sheep when the electrical shock prodder should only be used “sparingly”.

So Yabby claims: "There was a conference in Perth involving all the scientific community and others who work on live sheep issues, just a month or two ago."

Oh good, Yabby. Please provide us with a link please.

*Oh good, Yabby. Please provide us with a link please.*

Gawd woman, it was discussed in detail in the farming press.
If you are going to have a go at the industry, at least bother
to keep up with it. There are weekly publications such as
the Countryman, Farm Weekly, discussing all this stuff.

Sorry, but unlike you, I don't live by my google bar.

I actually subscribe to those journals and saw nothing. I have, however, just finished reading LiveCorp's Shipboard Performance Report for 2007, and it really doesn't appear that you're getting any better at what you do - sheep and goat mortalities are certainly on the rise.

The number of mortality-free cattle voyages declined. Amongst the findings about cattle was an insistence of exporters in exporting "bos taurus" cattle at a time of the year when it is known that more will die of heat exhaustion. There is nothing new in the report about the causes of death of the sheep.

The "collateral damage" overall looks to be something like 38,000 animals, despite a substantial drop in the export of live sheep. The full statistics are at the DAFF "Animal welfare" site

http://www.daff.gov.au/animal-plant-health/welfare/export-trade/mortalities

Emanuels managed to kill 1,658 sheep on a 32 day voyage in July 2007 and another 1,002 in September 2007 then on one voyage in December in December another 1,311 and another 1,980 sheep died. Haleen managed to kill 12.5% of the boats on one voyage in June 2007.

As for "Actions by the Secretary" against Emanuels - you guessed it - NONE. That's before I analyze the rest.

Nicky

*I actually subscribe to those journals and saw nothing.*

I guess old age is setting in dear, check and update the glasses.

Farm Weekly April 17th, pages 16 and 17. Its all there for you,
if you open your eyes.

"Gawd woman, it was discussed in detail in the farming press"

Really Yabby? Well then what was the title of the seminar? What date was it held and under whose umbrella and where was the venue in Perth? And to which scientific community do you refer?

Or don't you know that either?

PS: I wouldn't waste my time reading the propaganda in the rags you subscribe to - rags which you persistently quote in typically vague fashion but which you are unable to substantiate.

Just give me the details I've requested, or have you simply fabricated the details as per usual?

Dickie, I think he must have, because I have searched through the archives and found nothing (in Farm Weekly).

The Emanuels death toll of sheep between July and December 2007 was 4,506, in fact, if my calculations from the DAFF spreadsheet are correct. Not bad, in less than six months, is it? And that's just them.

Cheers
Nicky

*I wouldn't waste my time reading the propaganda in the rags you subscribe to *

If you are so lazy as to not inform yourself, wanting me to lay
everything on a plate for you, then frankly, get stuffed lol.

Its all there, page 16 and 17 of Farm Weekly 17th April 2008,
organised by MLA and Livecorp, with scientists and researchers
from various universities around Australia attending.

Informed people, who know what is going on in the industry,
know about this stuff. The animal liberation brigade are clearly
too busy chanting their mantras from their own websites, to be
informed.

"Its all there, page 16 and 17 of Farm Weekly 17th April 2008,
organised by MLA and Livecorp, with scientists and researchers
from various universities around Australia attending."

Tsk, tsk. Is that the best you can come up with Yabby to mask your deceitful swill? So "MLA and Livecorp" were the organisers. Ahh....I see now. So where's the rest of the details I requested?

Nil eh? You don't even know what you're ranting on about and you certainly couldn't lie straight in bed. What a tosser!

Dickie, Farm Weekly must have found Yabby's great event to be of such little significance, it does not appear anywhere in its story archives online for that period. I think we can safely discount the whole catastrophe really, since the "scientists" were no doubt handsomely recompensed for their "contributions" by LiveCorp and MLA.

Meanwhile, I found this:

"The mortality statistics for 2007, for animals who died at loading, on ships, or during "discharge" are available at LiveCorp's website.

At the DAFF Animal Welfare/Live Exports site, the true "collateral damage" is revealed: a rise in mortality rates for sheep and goats; and the total "damage" for the year 2007 was more than 38,000 animals (despite an overall drop in sheep exports). Emanuel Exports, who faced cruelty charges in Western Australia this year was responsible for the deaths of about 4,500 sheep in just four voyages between June and December, a six month period. These people still have a licence, and no sanctions were ever imposed. Another exporter managed to kill 12.5% of the goats on board - but was able to continue exporting other animals.

"This is, of course, the story of the "lucky" ones. The survivors face the most egregious cruelty to have been shown on Australian television. Furthermore, Middle Eastern countries are now "onforwarding" Australian animals to other countries, in conditions of unspeakable cruelty.

"Who is laughing all the way to the bank? The exporters, and the importing countries, in which all the jobs have been created.
The Australian government now says it is investing funds in importing countries. This we have seen before, with facilities funded substantially by Australian taxpayers to prop up this obscene trade in cruelty not even being used.

"If you believe this is unacceptable - that Australian animals destined for food deserve at the very least a humane life and a humane death, TAKE ACTION with the politicians who are actively supporting this trade in wretched animal misery".

http://candobetter.org/node/604#comment-1007 Posted by "Stoptac"

Nicky

Over and over the same crap you go Nicky, zzzzzzzzzz.

I told you before, 4 million sheep a year exported, they all died,
people ate them.

Yup, 1% had a problem along the way, no different to any land
based feedlot. But then you know nothing about agriculture.
Qualified vets, scientists and animal welfare specialists
know alot more then a couple of doting motherly types.

If people object to the live trade, they are free to buy them
in Australian saleyards and slaughter them here. Clearly they
can't be bothered. Ok, no worries, farmers think globally.

Meantime, farmers continue to do more for livestock and livestock
handling in the ME, then any animal liberation or animal
welfare group. Those groups seem to spend their time playing on their computers, or playing on OLO lol. Mind you, two old ducks
like you two, both fanatical, really don't matter to anyone.

Hi Nicky

Thanks for that link. I shall have a look a bit later.

In the meantime have a look at these figures which are monstrous and if you want to see a breakdown of them go to DAFF and peruse the mortalities on the Excel sheets. These are the figures submitted by the ship captains.

"One percent" says our resident sicko.

Here's a few examples of mortalities on individual voyages for 2007:

International Livestock Export Fremantle/Kuwait/Bahrain/Doha/Jebel Ali
2.53%

International Livestock Export Pty Ltd Fremantle/Jeddah
2.06%

Wellards Portland/Kuwait/Muscat/Jebel Ali
1.88%

Elders International Australia Limited Fremantle/Portland/Manzanillo
6.67%

Livestock Shipping Services Freo/Jeddah
1.73%

Wellard Freo/Muscat/Bahrain/Kuwait/Jebel Ali
1.13%

What can we expect to see for the Egyptian run?

Total mortalities for all animals for 2007 is around 41,106.

No, no, Yabby, that is relatively new "crap".

Dickie, the extended, multi-port journeys are usually the killers - I did have a look at the Excel spreadsheet. Emanuels slipped under the radar of reporting because, presumably, they just came in under the 2%. But it's all appalling total. The ships they use are usually the "Al Kuwait", "Al Shuwaikh", "Al Messilah" and "Merino (aka Cormo) Express", all between 40+ to 25+ years old. The first two are "open" decked and the latter two "closed" decked (they are old car transporters).

Remember these stats are based on Captain's reports, and what would their agenda be (especially Middle Eastern ones)? Looking at LiveCorp's stats as well, they are working to send animals on longer and longer journeys (Mauritius, Turkey, Russia, Mexico)

What Yabby cannot deal with to anyone's satisfaction but his own
is the suffering firstly of the animals who die on the ships and during "discharge", as they so quaintly describe it, then the prolonged suffering of those who survive. But what the hell? The farmers are making a few bucks, so who cares. Farmers in reality do bugger-all for animals in importing countries (or Australia, for that matter unless it turns a profit), and now suggest that community-funded animal advocacy groups either have, or would consider spending their funds in those countries. Why would they do any such thing when the objective is to stop the trade?

It has been shown many times that Australian taxpayer funded "improvements" have achieved nothing (are not even used), and that these people do buy frozen meat when we do not supply animals (during the embargo on Saudi Arabia, the frozen meat trade trebled (and the UAE was shown to be importing the animals, butchering them and flogging the meat to Saudi Arabia, and during the recent ban on Egypt they bought frozen meat (not animals from other sources).

I was reading some stuff earlier about Sharia law and the charming practices they have of amputating thieves' hands, stoning women to death and flogging them in the streets. What hope do animals have?

Nicky

Nicky, of course you want to stop the trade, for as part of the
animal liberation movement, you want to stop livestock farming,
period. Sending West Australian farmers broke in the process,
would suit your agenda all the way! Sorry kid, it won't happen.
Sending Australian farmers broke won't help animal welfare, simply
help your crusade of animal liberation. But then that is what
you really want, as you have admitted previously.

The fact that in nature, animals are far worse off then on most
Australian farms, clearly goes above your head.

Let em die in droughts, let em get ripped to bits by predators,
if you don't see it in your lounge room, you clearly do not care.
Such flawed philosophy.

Poor Yabby. I don't remember saying that it would suit my "animal liberation agenda to send Australian farmers broke" - but maybe I did - most likely in the context of the cruelty inflicted upon "livestock". Do you really think animals in nature are worse off than, say, battery hens, "broiler" chickens, and intensively farmed pigs? They are also not mulesed, castrated/spayed (by various means), de-horned and branded without anaesthetic. What about animals sent to the Bassetin slaughterhouse?

And "nature" is nowhere near as intentionally cruel or predatory as the human species.

You came up with an excellent idea for PALE on another thread I was reading (I was drawn to it because you don't have too many) - if their "Muslim Leaders" want to meet Australian farmers why do they not just go to saleyards. Good question indeed. Why don't they, then the rest of us wouldn't be being harangued by PALE, in its various alter-egos, to do the work for them it they claim to be doing. Still, they seem to be having a break, so I won't go there any further.

But you still don't ever answer the questions about the treatment of animals, that has been so well documented and faithfully recorded on film. As bad as what you do to them here is, do you think that is acceptable?

Nite nite
Nicky

Nicky I remind you that graziers, which is most Australian farmers,
do sheep or cattle, not battery chooks or pigs. If you check the
records, you will find that large corporations are into that.

You clearly think that sheep and cattle are "brutalised", when
the eviedence shows that most indeed leave happy lives, far
better off then in nature. On this farm and on many others, yup
they are far better off then in nature.

You have made the point over and over, that you think that farmers
should not be farming cattle or sheep. You have also made it clear
that if they go broke, that would suit you. Its not going
to happen dear, no matter how hard you try, no matter what
new excuse you come up with.

Is cutting a sheeps throat acceptable? Well its acceptable in
Australia, as it is legal. Is tying a sheeps legs together
in Australia acceptable? Well its commonly practised here and
is legal.

I remind you that the Koran says that Muslims should be kind to
animals and religion matters in the ME. If you are really concerned
about animal welfare in the ME, that is the approach you have to
follow, to get results. But then you are not interested about
animal welfare in the ME. Never mind the 12 million or so
livestock that are not Australian. Send those farmers broke,
that will achieve your true agenda

"The fact that in nature, animals are far worse off then on most
Australian farms, clearly goes above your head."

The fact is Yabby, you are so incredibly ignorant and worse, sadistic, that you fail to acknowledge the basic laws of Nature. She did not intend for cloven hooved animals to dwell in Australia nor did she intend for misfits like yourself to dwell here either, violating her laws of equilibrium.

What else do you call it when you place her animals in chains, shackled, hoisted, whipped, beaten, stabbed and made to do things they don't want to and aren't in their nature? Slavery is your mind-set. To demons like yourself, these aren't important living beings. They are less than you, and therefore you can exploit them and make their life a misery.

Nature does not fit into your little phallic, neanderthal perceptions of life, does she?

Your ideas are the product of a sick human being - morally sick, socially sick, ethically sick and spiritually diseased.

You remain too obtuse to realise that Nature is already objecting to your violence against her animal species. She has sent in her warriors and this country is now witnessing suicidal and bankrupt farmers, droughts, depletion of water, rotting soils and foul air but you are so arrogant that you believe you will not be held accountable?

Karma Yabby, Karma. I have my own ideas as to what Karma has in store for you! Remember, what goes 'round, comes 'round! Hallelujah, hallelujah!

*Karma Yabby, Karma.*

Karma Dickie, is simply your version of the Catholics judgement day,
heaven and hell etc. Great for kiddies and true believers, not much
good for skeptics or rational people. Not a scrap of substantiated
evidence, yet the true believers like you, keep on believing.
Whatever gets you throught the night dear, but leave me out of it.

*She did not intend for cloven hooved animals to dwell in Australia*

Nature does not intend anything. Cloven hooved animals evolved like
all other species, they also move around. They are only a problem
if there is overpopulation. Adjust the population to the given
environment and they are no problem. Do you not even understand
basic Darwinian evolution theory or basic biology?

*What else do you call it when you place her animals in chains, shackled, hoisted, whipped, beaten, stabbed*

That is exactly why my animals do what comes naturally. They chomp
some pasture, chew the cud, admire the scenery and hang out with
their fellow creatures, enjoying life. No droughts, no predators
that rip them to bits each night, life is a breeze. The animals
in the wild have no such luxuries.

*Nature is already objecting to your violence against her animal species.*

Nature does not think Dickie, Nature simply is.

What a deluded piece of ignorance you are Yabby.

Following is the 2007 EPA report for the location in which you conduct your disgraceful business:

"At a national level, Western Australia has 8 of 12 Australian biodiversity hotspots.

"At a global level, the South West is recognised as one of the world's 34 biodiversity hotspots.

"WA currently has 362 threatened plants, 199 threatened animals and 69 threatened ecological communities.

"Recovery plans have been developed for less than one-third of threatened species and ecological communities.

"There is ongoing loss and degradation of biodiversity in WA.

"Knowledge about many species and ecosystems and some threats to biodiversity remains inadequate.

Take your swill to any credible scientific agency on the planet Yabby but first pad up your fat arse before you're ejected onto the pavement.

And your psychopathic mindset claims: "That is exactly why my animals do what comes naturally. They chomp some pasture, chew the cud, admire the scenery and hang out with their fellow creatures, enjoying life."

Of course, during this "enjoyable life" Yabby, you take to these fully conscious animals with a large pair of shears to cut off their testicles, slice off their backsides, drench them in carcinogenic substances, meanwhile helping yourself to OUR lands, trashing and slashing before exporting your stock where these terrified sheep are electrically prodded onto the ships of death, incarcerated in tonnes of faeces, urine and sludge, which they must also lie down in - muck which is not disposed of until the sheep have reached their destination.

If they survive the ships of death, they are then transported many miles without food and water to be thrown off trucks, beaten, hogtied, dragged down streets, thrown into car boots or dispensed with at filthy abattoirs, where they are dragged to an assembly line, fully conscious to witness the slaughter of their companions, before they too have their throats cut.

"Do you not even understand basic Darwinian evolution theory or basic biology?"

Yes and I particularly recognise the biology of viruses which endanger the survival of animals, plants and humans.

You're one of them!

Yabby, is it the Catholic Church you hate in isolation, all Christian religions, or religions as a whole? As for the Muslims and their "kindness" to animals, we have seen the evidence of that. And yes, PETA did a campaign to that effect in the Middle East, pointing out that Australian animals are "haram" because of the suffering they have endured, in Australia, on ships, and in the Middle East.

What Dickie is saying is not rocket science. Cloven hooved animals only came to Australia as a result of human intervention. Australia's delicate ecosystems cannot sustain these animals, particularly at the rate you people breed them (and spare me the claptrap about them doing it all by themselves). Australia's ecosystems can support the wildlife indigenous to them, and look at the damage you people have done to them. The Tasmanian Devil is under threat of extinction as a result of a facial tumour disease, which has been attributed to the pollution farmers have contributed to Tasmanian waterways, and 1080 baits.

Countless other species are under threat or have been lost forever. You people should be held accountable for that - maybe it will be Karma, who knows? You certainly don't.

In the meantime, inform yourself, and actually watch the footage Dickie and I have posted on these threads. You accuse us of being ill-informed (without knowing us or what we do or don't know) while persistently refusing to inform yourself.

Nicky

Just for the record, everyone, I just found a letter posted by PALE in August 2007 calling for an "end" to its MoU with AFIC:

"....I would ask you to remove us from your web page and of course consider our MOU at an end.

"It is with regret you chose not to work with us however you leave us without any other choice. On a personal note to you Ikabel I am extremely surprised and very disappointed".

Regards
Wendy Lewthwaite
Posted by TarynW, Monday, 13 August 2007 7:35:23 AM

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=877&page=0#15619

So what possible objection could there be to the Handle with Care Coalition making the approaches it (reportedly) has?

Nicky

Dickie, I am deluded because you believe in the Karma fairy? There is as much
evidence, as there is for the tooth fairy!

*WA currently has 362 threatened plants, 199 threatened animals and 69 threatened ecological
communities.*

I remind you Dickie, that is was your ancestors and not mine, who released foxes,
cats and rabbits into the Australian environment. Between those three, that represents
most of the damage. Don’t blame people who are farming sustainably for what
your relatives did in the past.

*with a
large pair of shears to cut off their testicles, slice off their backsides, drench them in
carcinogenic substances*

I do? Your imagination runs wild once again, yet you don’t have the foggiest about
what happens on farms. Must be old age. As a matter of interest, I have done neither
of all three that you mention, but dream on.

*before
exporting your stock*

Ah, but I have never exported stock. I have sold them to all sorts of people. Some landed up on little trays in Woolies, some landed up in little trays in the USA and elsewhere. Some were put on ships, which follow world’s best practise.

I have always encouraged building more meatworks in West Australia. But I do not
make the rules or run the Govt. I do not chase investors away with red tape, I don’t
make laws which stop meatworks employing foreign workers. I produce lambs and
sheep, sustainably and they enjoy their lives. I then sell them in the open market.
Anyone can buy them. If society makes rules and regulations which inhibit a globally competitive meat industry happening in West Australia, then society is
at fault, not me.

WA farmers are some of the most efficient and productive farmers in the world.
With developments like no-till/deep-till, moderate stocking rates etc, they are
also some of the most sustainable. If city slickers are so slack that they are unable
to handle our primary products in an efficient way, don’t blame farmers, but blame
your own Govt bureaucrats and industry.

Hi Nicky

We can see more clearly now that we are dealing with a sociopath.

Apparently a sociopath is one who has no moral restrictions on their thoughts or actions, i.e. without concience. They are capable of acting correctly, but would only do so because of its usefulness, not out of a sense of what's right.

Example: "Ah, but I have never exported stock. Some were put on ships, which follow world’s best practise" (Yabby)

Very disturbing indeed Nicky. Should I resurrect his post where he brags that he exports his sheep to the ME for the Haaj Festivals? Of course sociopaths are poor liars with even poorer memories.

Anyhow perhaps he'll quieten down by showing him a video from NZ, on how his victims die from the 1080 bait. That should get him excited.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgOsdBTe1s8

Hello everyone
Yabby seems to be saying that everything he does is justified by the economics, whether it is environmental damage or cruelty to animals. I noticed that he said somewhere else that hogtying sheep and slitting their throats while they're conscious is commonplace on Australian farms. Where does that leave our criticism our criticism of the Middle East? Just asking because I still don't think all the shipping is right.

Hi Dickie and Alexandra

It really seems a lost cause going over and over the same tired old ground with Yabby. A sociopath indeed. Yabby, you may use different methods of castration, but not all farmers do. As for being "efficient and "productive", that tells us with absolute clarity that sentient beings are nothing more than commodities to you.

"World's best practise" (sic)? Don't make us laugh. Not when 40,000+ animals. and rising, die every year on these old heaps of scrap. And of course, what happens to the survivors continues to be irrelevant to Yabby, because it is ALL THE GOVERNMENT'S FAULT. Give us a break. Clearly they are smarter in the Eastern states, because they have not built markets (to the same extent) on gross animal abuse as you in the West have have managed (to turn into a fine art).

Tell us about the spaying and castration of cattle in the north. Do you think that is humane. And put a rubber ring on your relevant parts and see how painful it is.

Nicky

*As for being "efficient and "productive", that tells us with absolute clarity that sentient beings are nothing more than commodities to you.*

That tells nothing of the sort. It tells that at the end of the
day, farming has to pay its way, or you are out of farming. That
is the reality. Given that half the Australian sheep flock has
gone since the early 90s and given that every year a good
number of farmers quit, as they are sold up, or its too hard for
them, farming is marginally profitable, if that. People generally
do it as they love the lifestyle. But reality prevails, bills need
paying, banks need paying, or people are sold up. End of story.
You girls would last all of 5 minutes.

What farmers can do is benchmark themselves against others, in
other parts, in terms of value of the commodities that they produce.
In terms of cost of inputs they use, etc.

We happen to have a market economy in this country, but if the
market is corrupted and is not functioning as markets should, then
that shows in prices received or paid. Given past and present
political decisions, our meat industry market is corrupted, meaning
that WA farmers receive substantially less for their animals then
other farmers in the East and elsewhere. Farmers don't run Govts,
they are simply one cog in the economic system. If the other
other cogs aren't functioning properly, don't blame farmers.

Sheep ships come to WA for good reasons, ie some of the world's
cheapest and healthiest sheep.

You can love animals as much as you want, if you go broke, they
won't be around,and nor will your farm.
Simple as that. Reality does not
go away, when you close your eyes and wish it would.

http://www.insidebayarea.com/ci_9662208?source=most_emailed

There you go Nicky, a bit of info as to how nature really works,
compared to how some think it works. Finally some are learning.

Yabby, as always, your largely irelevant link said nothing about nature at all. What it said that human intervention was the original source of the problem.

And your own argument reaffirms my statement that these animals are nothing more that commodities to you. As always, you failed to answer my questions too.

Dickie, I have a really powerful document I would love to be able to send you. Do you by any chance have an email address that does not identify you or your location (or you could invent a junk hotmail, gmail or yahoo one, then never check it again after this), or a mailing address?

Cheers
Nicky

*said nothing about nature at all.*

Nicky, the article said a great deal about nature, but clearly it
was over your head. Herbivores living in constant fear, is in
fact part of nature. When that was not the case, the environment
was trashed.

*are nothing more that commodities to you*

Again, the argument goes over your head once again and clearly
does not suit your agenda. Like most true believers, you only
believe the bits that you like, ingoring the rest.

Fact is that farmers have to pay their bills like anyone else,
so have to make decisions accordingly. You are the first who
has claimed that farmers should receive no subsidies. Ok, fair
enough, that means business decisions have to be made, for
farmers to survive.

If farmers are operating in corrupted markets, like in WA, or
farmers are operating in systems where Govt red tape restricts
markets, so captive markets exist, then hard decisions have to
be made.

Society is free to change those things if it chooses to.

But then your argument all along the way is that farmers should
not be farming in the first place. I can't argue with that kind
of rubbish, its rather pointless.

Fact is that my livestock have more freedoms and live far more
naturally then your dogs. So you are little more then a hypocrite
really.

Hi Nicky

Leave it with me. I shall speak to the IT man in the family tomorrow as, alas, I'm a computer illiterate.

Will return here in a day or so.

Toodle-loo.

So it's all the government's fault - still.

Perhaps you could divert your self interest to answering my questions.

1. Is battery hen farming acceptable and humane?
2. Is the way meat chickens and pigs are farmed acceptable and humane?
3. Is it acceptable for animals to be brutalized as we have seen so many times in importing countries?
4. Is keeping sheep and cattle on trucks without rest, feed or water for days, regardless of the weather conditions in this country acceptable?
5. Are the spaying/castration methods used on many/most farms on sheep. pigs and cattle humane and acceptable?

Your "livestock" do not have more freedom/a more natural life than my dogs - but you don't know that because you don't know my dogs. They were. however, anaesthetized when they were neutered, and they were not mutilated. They will certainly not be loaded onto trucks and hauled off to slaughter/live export at a time determined by me or any other member of the human species - unlike your "livestock".

Dickie - I think you can actually delete those hotmail/yahoo type email addresses when you want to. It's a great document that I'm sure you'll find interesting.

Nicky