What a coincidence, Shockadelic.

>>You would destroy freedom in the name of freedom<<

That is exactly the phrase I would use to describe someone who would prefer that we mutate our tolerant, mature and well-balanced society in order to copy the antics of one that has - as you so graphically depict - some fundamentalist enclaves that demonstrate less tolerance, understanding and maturity than ours.

Generally speaking, that is.

>>If anybody tolerated, embraced and glorified Nazism, you'd be the first to repudiate them<<

Indeed I would. And if you can demonstrate some genuine parallels between Islam and the rise of Nazism in Germany, I would be in the front line, actively working against the corruption of our society by such brainwashing.

>>Killing people over *books*. These are the people I'm supposed to tolerate, embrace and glorify?<<

Now admit it, no-one has asked you to "embrace and glorify", only to understand and show some tolerance for difference.

>>Muslims *despise* otherness... Precisely why I distrust people whose sworn objective is moral domination of the entire world.<<

Yeah, right. How successful were the Christian evangelists who went out to conquer the world for Jesus in the nineteenth century?

So much for "moral domination".

Tell me, oh guru, how much of the capture of the hearts and minds of citizenry by Nazis was through moral domination, and how much by instilling fear at a visceral, physical level?

And are the attempts at "moral domination" of Australia being conducted at a mental or physical level?

I personally feel strong enough to withstand any attempts to brainwash me into any religion. Are you?

Nor do I feel physically threatened. Do you?

Wishy-washy generalizations won't work, you will need to be specific.

A Muslim may very well be capable of managing the local 7-11, feeding and clothing his family, etc.
These are the lower levels of the pyramid in Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.
They are about basic survival.

Even Nazis worked and fed their children.
Did that make them model citizens?

To get to the top of the pyramid and reach your full potential, you need a freedom of thought and action *impossible* in Islamic society.

Where are the great Islamic thinkers, artists, scientists?
Can't think of a single one?

Now list the Westerners who've made great cultural contributions to art, science, philosophy.
The list is a mile long.

Why? Because it's at least *possible* to be Self-Actualized in a liberal society.
In fact, a liberal society is a *prerequisite* to Self-Actualization.

Islam is authoritarian, censorious, conformist.
That's why Muslims are rarely spontaneous, creative, autonomous, humourous (i.e. Self-Actualized).

The more Muslims there are in Australia, the more authoritarian, censorious, and conformist our society will become, and the less potential there will be for Self-Actualization.
And almost all growth of Islam in Australia is from immigration *not* conversion.

If 5% of Australians are Muslim, most of us could still become Self-Actualized.
If 33% were Muslim, it'd get a lot harder.
If more than 50% were Muslim, you can kiss Self-Actualization goodbye!

No society or person is 100% free or 100% tolerant.
Otherwise, we'd embrace the difference of cannibals and glorify the otherness of serial killers.
Even pirates had some rules and restrictions.

"Freedom" and "Tolerance" are not either/or.
They are relative *continuums*.
And Islam is at the *other end* of the continuum to us.

Various reports on freedom and social development worldwide exist and they all show the same thing: Islamic countries suck at freedom, Non-Islamic countries rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World_(report)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-of-life_index

Australia is currently ranked:
#3 Human Development
#6 Quality of Life
#8 Democracy
#11 Corruption Perception (i.e. 11th least corrupt).

Islamic countries come way down the lists.

More Islamic = less free.
More Islamic = more corrupt.
More Islamic = worse quality of life.

Put 2 and 2 together, Pericles.

Shockaholic asks: "Where are the great Islamic thinkers, artists, scientists? Can't think of a single one?"

This says more about his pig ignorance than about Islamic achievements of world-wide significance. There are dozens of books on this topic (no, not Shocker's ignorance, but about achievements by Muslims).

Just a cursory glance, for example, at the Nobel Prizes (the most coveted and prestigious international awards) would show recent winners known to be Muslims include:

1978 - Anwar al-Sadat, Egypt, Nobel Peace Prize
1979 - Abdus Salam, Pakistan, Nobel Physics Prize
1988 - Naguib Mahfouz, Egypt, Nobel Literature Prize
1994 - Yasser Arafat, Palestine, Nobel Peace Prize
1999 - Ahmed Zewail, Egypt, Nobel Chemistry Prize
2003 - Shirin Ebadi, Iran, Nobel Peace Prize
2005 - Mohamed ElBaradei, Egypt, Nobel Peace Prize
2006 - Orhan Pamuk, Turkey, Nobel Literature Prize
2006 - Muhammad Yunus, Bangladesh, Nobel Peace Prize.

(http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/)

Note that five of these Nobel Prizes are for Peace. I wonder where these thinkers stand on Shocker's Malovian hierarchy?

Perrrrrricles....

my lengthy training of that active brain of yours is finally having a positive impact :)

You said:
<<"your fear and loathing of Islam,>>

Now..FINally you are at least using the correct terminology. "Islam" not 'Muslims'...goody goody.

<<You have no scholarship in interpretation of the Qur'an, only a desire to paint its content in the blackest possible light.>>

Actually.... close but no cigar.

1/ My primary objective is not to 'loathe' as much as wake Aussies up to the 'loathing' which is absolutely real in the Quran and Hadith towards Christians, Jews and "Polytheists" (thats you by the way.. in Quranic terminology)

2/ Pericles.. remember good ol Abu Izzadeen London Muslim radical who abused the home secretary (Formerly Trevor Brooks).. arrested last year.. he said in typical colorful fashion "non muslims are kaffffffirs..and no kafffffir is innocent..only Muslims are innocent" well they carted his sorry rear end off to the slammer but only about 30 yrs too late.

3/ The problem is... I'm sure even MeinKampf has some good points and that if one was interested in finding them, one could speak glowingly about its ground breaking ideas ?... but there is one minor catch... it appears to declare a whole race/religion 'persona non grata on planet earth'....and for that reason, we must turf out the whole thing or reap the consequences.

Hope you had a delightful break :) I caught 2 decent fish..and played with my new laptop .. this morning...I kicked its sorry arse TWICE in chess.. and at LEAST now it will admit that checkmate is a DEFEAT and not a 'draw' as it did the first time I wupped it .....

Then you said:
<<Do you dispute this? Then please, show me one instance where you have taken the opposite stance.>>
Nope..I don't deny that at all. The 'good bits' are like the bait I used to catch my fish.. but inside the bait..was a deadly hook.

The break seems to have refreshed your tendency for modesty and self-restraint, Boaz.

>>Perrrrrricles.... my lengthy training of that active brain of yours is finally having a positive impact <<

Must be something about the cathartic battle of wits you have experienced with those two fish. If the bait you used is the same as you use here, I suspect they may have leapt out of the water in an act of self-sacrifice, just to get you to stop your rabble rousing for a moment.

Your attempt to promote the idea that you hate Islam but love Muslims won't catch you any fish here, Boaz. It's the equivalent of pretending that you hate Nazism but love Nazis.

>>My primary objective is [to] wake Aussies up to the 'loathing' which is absolutely real in the Quran and Hadith towards Christians...<<

Only in the interpretation that you, and a few Islamic rabble-rousers, choose to use. You have placed yourself in opposition to terrorists by using the exact same tactics as they do, haven't you?

>>The problem is... I'm sure even MeinKampf has some good points... but there is one minor catch... it appears to declare a whole race/religion 'persona non grata on planet earth'....and for that reason, we must turf out the whole thing or reap the consequences.<<

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

You and Mein Kampf take an identical approach. You both “declare a whole race/religion 'persona non grata on planet earth'” and advocate that “we must turf out the whole thing or reap the consequences.”

Tell me, which part of this parallel escapes you?

It is only a very small step, Boaz, from advocating the elimination of an entire religion, to that of advocating the elimination of its adherents. That is what you perceive your religious enemies to be doing, so you consider that the appropriate response is to do the same.

Don't you see how this puts you on the same level as the people you purport to despise?

Well thank you again for that very colorful perspective Pericles..

there is one minor point I wish to clear up though.. hanging from your literary nose like a missed chunk of.. who knows what..

I am not calling for the 'elimination' of a religion.

I'm calling for 'legal restraint on immigration and serious measures of vetting of all migrants to Australia in terms of 'their' values and ours and a determination of suitability based on the level of compatability.

For Muslims already here.. and those embracing that faith.. there are 2 groups and thus, there must be 2 approaches.

2 GROUPS..

1/ the nominal..cultural...and the sincere but gentle.

2/ The radical die hard.

For group 1... the solution is the proclaiming of the Gospel of salvation in the boldness and annoining of the Holy Spirit...such that 'whosoever will...may come'

For group 2.. its the AFP and Asio.

Thanx again for showing me how my words can be misunderstood.. it assists me in adjusting my terminology.

UPDATE on the Kirpan... had a call yesterday from the MultiCultural Council of Vic.. (who was VERY guarded about who I might 'be' and where from)
She explained that "Schools have the righ to determine things on a case by case basis." but she ALSO said she understands that Airports 'have an arrangment' and that the Kirpan must be sewn into some kind of garment on planes.. WHAT ? so she is suggesting that they can actually be CARRIED on planes?
Just a reminder of what one is...see here.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40025000/jpg/_40025050_sikh-knife.ap.jpg

Isn't that a beaut :) I can see it all now.. a 15 yr old Sikh kid at school...with THAT.