Shockadelic, you're acting as though we face a united enemy - this isn't the case.

Although I'm sure you can point to any number of violent acts committed by muslim extremists, when you look beyond the superficial indications, you find the motives are far more complex.

In both world wars, it was a case of an organised enemy with a fixed agenda.

In the case of muslim extremists, more conflict is caused by the sunni-shia divide than a vendetta against the west. Much of it is due to the presence of local dictators, in fact, if you follow the history of Ayman Al-Zawahiri, you find that one of the chief difficulties he had was persuading militant groups to join his campaign against the west - they were more interested in fighting enemies much closer to home, from different muslim sects.

Take a look further. The name, Jamal Al-Fadl ring a bell?
The first mentions of Al-Qaeda were in his trial, in relation to organised crime.

There's no disputing Al-Qaeda now exists in some international form, but I'd contend that it originated as a series of local cells, each with their own petty local issues instead of some grand international agenda.
It was when the west started reacting with hysterics that we gave them a united name and increased their potency.
By and large, their goals are still local issues, but now they get attention when they attack western targets and align themselves with Al-Qaeda.

With so many hundreds of millions of muslims spread throughout the Western world and forming a key part of our society... tell me Shockadelic, what is it you're proposing we do to these people? From your tone, I can only see you advocating we declare all out war, which sensibly speaking, appear to be the equivalent of pouring gasoline on a small fire.

As usual, TurnRightThenLeft ignores my questions (and our common ground) and goes off on another tangent (to prove how evil I am).

Now, to be a threat, Muslims must be a *single* entity with a single agenda.

Bollocks!

Fragmentation is part of the problem.
You catch one terrorist cell, there's dozens more out there.
A slippery chameleon.

And terrorism is just the icing on a very nasty cake:
Misogyny, homophobia, censorship, religious discrimination.
And that's *mainstream* Islam, not just extremists.

Yes, I see the paradox of discriminating against Muslims because they discriminate against others.
But if they weren't like that, there'd be *no need*.
Life is full of paradoxes.
Your Lord and Saviour, Rationality, is dead. (If indeed He ever existed.)

"The motives are far more complex."
But the *principal* motive isn't nationalism or economics.

It's Godfulness.

Let me say that again:
Godfulness.

"More conflict is caused by the sunni-shia divide."
All the more reason to keep this conflict out of our historically Muslim-deficient country.

"The presence of local dictators" actually *prevents* extremism.
With a tyrant around, clerics (and their sheeple) mind their manners.

"Tell me Shockadelic, what is it you're proposing we do to these people?
From your tone, I can only see you advocating we declare all out war."

Oh, come off it!
Now who's "reacting with hysterics"?
I've already stated my "evil plan": stop immigration.

Continuing immigration would be "the equivalent of pouring gasoline on a small fire."
(A "small fire" so far responsible for plotting to blow up the electricity grid, gang raping white girls, and bashing lifesavers, for starters.)

What will it take to get it through your thick skull?
The Sydney Opera House blown to smithereens?
Machine gun massacre in parliament?

Wouldn't budge an inch would you?
You'd just keep prattling on about civil liberties (the ones Muslims reject).

If only there were a modern, liberal, individualistic, hedonistic culture somewhere, where authoritarian theocrats had no power to chop off my head.

Oh, hang on. I'm already there!

Right. Because resorting to insults is the best way to win any debate.
Though you are succeedingly admirably at convincing viewers that you're a hostile angry bigot.

You're advocating a dumb course of action you haven't properly considered.

You compared the muslim threat to WW2. I told you why it's a false analogy.

You're suggesting we halt muslim immigration.

Doesn't address the muslims here, who you'd be declaring war on.
By telling them, we don't want your kind here, you'd be branding them the enemy.

'Course you can bloody well find examples of muslim inspired violence. There's a billion of them.

You said we declared Nazis the enemy and discriminated - this time, we'd be doing that for the religion of between a fifth and a seventh of the world.

They haven't declared war on us and they don't have an army on the warpath. A few nutjobs have. You're giving them too much credit - and power.

Even the US, at the forefront of the War on 'Terror,' (Hooray for wars on abstract nouns!) hasn't done that.

So yes, it'd be 'declaring war.' How d'you think the muslim world would view Australia?

Thought about financial ramifications? Nations we trade with? Oil access? How Indonesia will consider this?

Our neighbour co-operates with us on border protection.

You think their government of the world's largest muslim nation will wanna be seen to cooperate with the world's most anti-muslim government?

Your decision is shortsighted. The muslim nations are increasing in population faster than the West. You want to poke them.

Fortunately they're not the hostile enemy you think they are.
I'd recommend you travel through Indonesia and live among the people. Then, if you actually had a personal understanding of the reality on the ground, you'd see how dumb all this fearmongering looks.

I know there are other bad muslim regimes. My point is, you can't judge the people by the actions of those governments or clerics.

Yeah, I'm assuming you haven't been to Indonesia. You can't have.
Nobody who has, would be so damn ignorant.

BOZO ducky, I will, as you can see, make a contribution when I, not you see fit.

My only contribution is that TRTL is doing very nicely thank-you in dealing with you and Slic. There is no way I can tackle your sort that well. I mean it. Besides..............;

...I reckon I could be overseas for a three years not months, and come back here and find YOU in particular (Slic's capable of showing some humour on occasion );- still spouting the same old oil and water piety/intolerance-hatred.

It's like a soap opera!

The message has been conveyed time and time again; Muslim = some good/some bad. Christian = some good/you bad. Atheist = me good. Multiculturalism = good; ---- and NO amount of sticking the ol' cranium in de' sand and denying its existence or success is goin' to change things.

Simple really. Sigh...........but I guess when one is dealing with....ah well! best I not say it, me bein' a lady an' all!

TurnRightThenLeft: "Resorting to insults is the best way to win any debate."
You'd know.

"You're advocating a dumb course of action you haven't properly considered."
Ditto to you.

"You compared the Muslim threat to WW2."
No, I compared the treatment of *possibly innocent* Germans, Italians and Japanese to today's possibly innocent Muslims.

"You're suggesting we halt Muslim immigration. Doesn't address the Muslims here."

If we proposed restricting immigration of prostitutes, this doesn't interfere with the free choice of Australian citizens to become prostitutes.
It only affects *foreign* prostitutes, whom we have no obligations to, and have no right to live here.

"Branding them the enemy."

They brand *me* the enemy: Harbi.
Harbi have no rights. Not even to live.

"The religion of between a fifth and a seventh of the world."

Numbers matter?
1 billion Allah fans can be wrong.

"They haven't declared war on us."

Oh, yes they have.
It's a principal tenet of their faith that they *must* dominate the *entire world*.
(A false hope, yes. But that won't stop them trying!)

"How d'you think the Muslim world would view Australia?"

Who cares?

"Financial ramifications? Trade? Oil? Indonesia?"

Trade has nothing to do with immigration.
Trade is about moving *products*, not people, across borders.

They want to sell us something? They need the money.
They want to buy something from us? They can't produce it themselves.

Business is business.
Oh-so-sensitive activists might agitate and moan.
Cold-blooded businessmen will continue doing deals.
Ka-ching!

I wouldn't go using Indonesia as an example of a model international citizen.
Here's a shovel, TurnRightThenLeft. Start digging your own grave.

"I'd recommend you travel through Indonesia."

I suggest you travel through *all* Muslim countries.
Don't forget your safe-conduct, Harbi.

I don't have to travel *anywhere* in the world.
This is the only place I want to be.
This gloriously "satanic" nation, future world leader (if we're not destroyed from within first.)

Keep your PC mind control.

I didn't spend half my life overcoming the "dictatorship" of my parents' beliefs to succumb to yours or your Muslim "friends".

I'd rather die behind the chemical sheds.

TRTL... ur doing a good job there.. (re my discussion of Job) because you are thinking about the issues.

Whether we take Job as 'true/real life' or.. poetry.. I have to leave it at this point most likely. I can see your reasoning, but I also am at a loss to take it much further. Have a look at the same dilemna Abraham faced re Sodom and Gomorrah.. see his disucssion with the Lord.

22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. [e] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare [f] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

In the light of the many huge acts of God in salvation history...I'd be very slow to Judge Him....after all..I am but a speck of dust.

SHOCKA... it surprises me that his basic reasoning seems to be under question here...

ewwzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzxppppppppppppppppp

No..i didn't suddenly have an anurism :) my little grandaughter is desperate to HELP (sitting on my lap) :) so I let her have a type 0_^

shocka ur doing a great job.. keep it up mate.

GINX .. "me=bad" ? :) grrr and MC=good? *gong*.. 2 marks lost there.
cheers.