To follow on from the flyblown dog issue...as I said before if the dog who had to be in excruciating pain, did not give any idication that he was, this surely then proves that a dog would not be the only animal to react this way..

Small animals such as mice ,guinea pigs, the reptile family,all fishes, large and small, I saw someone fillet a fish alive and it had no recognisable pain response..even though it made MY stomach heave....how do these animals express pain?

We cannot just assume that because an animal gives no outward indication of pain that we as humans recognise...that cant in actual fact be in pain.

By the way Pisces..if for some reason I am wrong about you and the Pigfamer being one and the same..I apolagise..

No I dont want you to go..your posts is very interesting.

Rachel, I have no intention of disturbing your little 'bash the pigfarmer' session. I have a message for you here:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=70#2839

Pisces..

You questioned a point I mad awhile back about why pain relief isnt made available to farmers and the fact that vets are so cost ineffective..is it true that a vet currently has to be consulted and actually onsite when certain pain relief procedures are being done?

Im wondering where I can get this info. from but when i get some background into this I will post again.

I have some grave concerns also about the way in which buffallo and wild cattle are rounded up and culled..

tThey are shot from helicopters and 'hazed' I believe the description is from 4 wheel drives..this takes place whist the cattle etc are in full gallop from copters and vehicles that are also moving...they are wounded and left to die in extremely horrific ways..

Wouldnt firing a dart loaded witha strong fast acting sedative be a better way to go

Hope you dont mind me jumping in here Taurus, but this is a subject I get a bit heated about :)

There are no anesthetics available to farmers. It must come from a vet and be adminstered by them also. Even the new spray coming out for mulesing - a vet is 'supposed' to be present for every sheep sprayed.

And its not like we can turn up at the vet with a truckload of sheep to have them treated. You have to pay the vet travel, visit fee and their hourly rate plus the drugs used. So to use anesthetic to castrate piglets, the vet has to adminster the drug, the farmer can do the operation thats ok, but then the vet has to wait for the next animal. Can you imagine the expense? I dont castrate but that presents a whole other problem.

Pain relief after the procedure, thats another story. The vet can prescibe it for the farmer and they can inject the animal themselves. If the idea is to protect us from misuse of drugs, shouldnt it be the other way around?

Ring any vet, they will tell you the same.

You are right about those poor buffalo - a tranquilizer dart would be much more humane. Although, with their hearts pumping at such a pace from that kind of stress, I imagine the end would be pretty swift? What is hazing?

Hi pigfarmer,

Yes it would seem that you are caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes to pain relief 'options' in relations the working reality of a farm environment..
yes and I can see how having to truck sheep/pigs/cattle etc is a less than satisfactory situation..so do you have any working alternatives on this one..youve obviously given it some thought seeing as though would likely face this conundrum more frequently than youd like.?
It may sound a bit out there but in far reaching outback areas these days,....doctors can consult and dispense advice via a teleconferencing medium..wondering if this principal could be adapted to suit a farm situation?..does that sound just too off with the fairies? Im not a farmer per se and it does show.

Hazing is a term for work carried out by bounty hunters that go after wild cattle and buffallo..ie:4 wheel drives equipped especially for this work..platform(some) for the roof..very large and robust roll/bullbar and they literally run these animals into the ground and maim them..they go under the truck,shot and basically mangled.It is a very cruel practice...but as these animals are regarded as feral..it seems they are not afforded any form of respect at all.

They can be bought down with a 250 or a 303..but only a clean shot will do the job humanely and most times a moving target is very difficult to hit cleanly.

It is difficult, because you want to do the best you can for the animals in your care, but without knowing what sort of pain they are feeling, which way do you go?

If anesthetic was available for me to use, I would definately castrate. I used to castrate without anesthetic, as young as possible when things were still tiny, in the hope that it caused the least pain. I have tried to judge their pain. If you hold a piglet upside down by its back legs, usually, they do not squeal. I have watched them castrated in this position, studied their eyes, muscle stiffness for any signs. None, that doesnt mean no pain, just cant tell.

The down side to not castrating is the sexual activity as they get older. I have used the words pack rape before to try and paint a vivid picture. Lets say it worked :)

Male pigs just seem to prefer other male pigs and can cause their unconsenting victim a lot of stress, pain (?) and injury. We are free range pig farmers so intensive piggeries dont have as much of a problem with smaller pens of pigs.

I still question, is the 1 minute of pain at a few days old better than weeks of torment?

If you have a consulting vet like we do, you can make arrangements for certain drugs to be on the premises, but not aneshetic.