It has always been a rather puzzling question for me..how do we know when an animal is in actual pain?

Another thread in progress..'Are all animal libbers are hypocites' seems to be suggesting that animals dont feel pain..that its ok to cut out their testicals without any form of pain relief and so on.

They even suggest that pack rape of farmed animals such as pigs is 'normal' farming practice and see no problem letting this perceived cruelty go unchecked..

So can anyone define the indicators of pain in animals for me?

Should farming practices as old as settlement itself in this country come under reveiw for its cruel and barbaric farming practices?

Good question Rachel06...

The pain indicators for animals, well thats a tough one..but I assume your talking about in a scientific sense?

I guess thats like wondering if plants feel pain in a lot of cases..some believe that they do but Im not sure how we would really know.

Apart from the animal actually recoiling in terror or screaming I guess thats the only way..but a lot of animals do not vocalise when they are hurt..out of fear or simply because they do not express pain this way.

It would seem even from human there is no one definitive answer as as humans some have cvery high pain thresh holds some very low.

I can name some animals that are, or would be in obviuos pain but suffer in silence..so how can we then, have a reliable overall indicator of pain that we can apply as a general rule?

Good question though..

I'm sure you're more focused on farm animals, but certainly pet dogs can clearly indicate when they are in pain - yelping and whining. Try stepping on a dog's paw accidently and you'll know they're not happy! :)

Hi guys I think it all depends on the animal really. I breed and show staffordshire bull terriers and I tell you these dogs have some pretty bad accidents. Some from being just "staffies" and doing outrageous stuff like jumping off things and getting balls etc caught in the gut somewhere etc etc the list goes on. It is really difficult to know when they are actually really hurting. They will fight to the death with no consequence of what is happening to them and I have seen some pretty bad dog fights (accidental) they just limp away and lick their wounds. The only time I see a staffy in pain is if you ignore them or yell at them, they get really hurt then. But I guess like people all animals and all species have different pain tolerences.

posting fyi

There are allegations made against good people working to improve animal welfare.



A letter of support for pig farmer after she made contact requesting support for free range farmers.
So now you can all! see what shes now complaining about!
I have deleted the name of the farm and her name which I do Not! Have To Do.

Dear Glenyce


We received an email from a Pig Farmer re her free range pork.
The accreditations are as you know carried out by the RSPCA. Any free range is better than intensive farms.

The animals only travel two hours to the abattoir.

You rejected their offer and request to work towards supporting free range farms as you have with HKM.

As you know 96 percent of people eat meat can only now accuse you of not caring about animal welfare what so ever and being a fund raising organisation to keep yourself in a job.

These are my personal thoughts.
As the State governments make moves to literally take water from the small farms, hundreds and hundreds of applications for intensive feed lots are jumping up all over the country.

it is NOW that all Animal Welfare groups should be screaming out in support! of free range farms.

This political agenda that's running extreme groups who are vegetarian are doing the animals more harm than good.

I challenge you any time you like to debate your policies by way of a TV documentary.

people donate funds thinking they are helping animals and you refuse to help animals by pushing for Free Range Only

There is no way you represent the feelings of the Australian public to the Government.

All you are doing is making it easy for the Government to Brand all animal welfare conscious people as extreme.

This harms the animals >Not Helps

PALE

Clearly it does not pay to try to help" some". The same pig farmer who contacted "us" crying for help defames the very people who were the only ones to support her?

Breed them here Free Range Open more abattoirs and Band Live Exports

Give you a hint. Step on your cat's tail or your dog's foot. They will yelp - because it hurts. They suffer from many of the emotional pains that we know as well. They greive at the loss of family members, they get lonely, happy and sad. How do I know. Just look at your dog for a while.

Why on earth would animals with identical nervous system feel
different ?

Who said animals have an 'identical nervous system'?

I never heard of that..Even if they did I ,what get from the topic question is in what way do they express pain that is different from humans?

They cant tell us for example..so if its not a cat or dog how would say a shark or a snake or any animal that does,nt traditionally make much sound at all..how would they express pain..fish etc.

Noone said they dont feel it..the question was 'what are the indicators of pain?'

Taurus,

The name of the thread is "do animals feel pain - what are the pain indicators". I thought that was pretty bizarre when I saw it. The sarcastic remarks about stepping on a dog's tail or something said it all. To be honest I still find it strange. Surely the originator could answer it themselves. And yes we do have the same nervous system.

The short answer is obviously 'it depends'. Sometimes it will be obvious sometimes there will be no reaction. The reactions will vary depending on creature and circumstance.

Like humans it may or may not be expressed. Sometimes we yell out particularly if surprised or having no reason to repress it. However a pair of pit bulls tearing each other apart or a pair of boxers (human) beating each other up are hardly going to yelp or cry their eyes out respectively as it would be seen as weakness by the opponent. Thus an exclamation of pain will be present in some circumstances for some types of animals and recoiling or some type of similar reaction will be the only reaction for other animals or other circumstances. Sometimes there will be no reaction at all as in the case of the boxers.

There are so many possibilities. I was with a %$^! of a horse that I stood next to in a poorly chosen position. He had (I expect deliberately) crossed his legs a little (to lure me into placing my foot in a particular place?). He then suddenly uncrossed and stamped his foot down on my foot. That was extremely painful but I didn't want him to know that so I relaxed and stayed silent. If he had no reason (such as knowing he was hurting me) to resist he was trained to lift his foot for shoeing. I calmly got him to lift his foot then did my hopping around.

mjpb..that horse story, hilariuos...are you sure that horse really planned it that way?:)

I,m not disputing if animals CAN feel pain..I wonder how we know they do?

For instance it is assumed that if we dont express pain, ie yell, scream or lash out then are we actually feeling it?

Like for example..farmers etc will inflict all kinds of cruelities on animals and because they dont react to pain in the same way we do ,and assume that they then, dont feel any or much pain?.like muellesing, docking,cruel shearing practices,removing testicles,sewing up tears etc.

Some animals just do not appear to show pain..some do.And the nervous system question is questionable..

If we cant relate to the subjects of any controlled study or trial to determine pain, suffering or whatever, we cant actually get an accurate result..if they cant tell you then you cant then just assume their answer...that is not for anyone to say except the subject themselves..we havent learned 'talk to the animals' yet so until we do...

"Noone said they dont feel it..the question was 'what are the indicators of pain?"

I think we try and apply and own thoughts and feeling to that of animals. It is my experience that animals react quite differently to humans. Their 'flight or fight' reaction kicks in much quicker than ours and quite often the noise that they make is more of a defence mechanism. So, I am saying that, quite often a lot of noise is not necessarily an indication of pain.

An animal that is quiet, depressed, wont eat, dull eyes is probably in pain, the animal making all the noise is distressed and in fear of pain. I am not saying its true of all animals.

Germ I totally agree, my dogs lost a family member (dog sister) and they were very depressed for ages. Our male dog who was her mating partner (we breed staffordshire bull terriers) and has a huge appetite did not eat for days. He is just now after 3 months getting over it. He would not even enjoy his walks and would hang his head all the way on the walk

Yes Deborah58, it seems to be common in herd or pack animals to miss one of its members especially their young. A cow will bellow for days, travel miles calling and wont eat when her calf is taken from her. But is it emotion? or for your dog, is part of adjusting to a new pecking order, or new routine? Coincidentally, the cow will stop bellowing when her milk has dried up. (I am not talking about dairy cows) Was her bellowing to find the calf to relieve the pain of her engorged udder, or was she missing her baby?

People on the land will have probably observed that strangest of cattle behaviors when cattle find blood and gather around with what appears to be stress and appear to lament the spilling of the blood of their own . Perhaps it is a "Call to arms".?.

"mjpb..that horse story, hilariuos...are you sure that horse really planned it that way?:)"

Not at all but he was a cantankerous s.o.a.b so I wouldn't put it past him. In hindsight he was standing in an unusual way.

"Like for example..farmers etc will inflict all kinds of cruelities on animals and because they dont react to pain in the same way we do ,and assume that they then, dont feel any or much pain?.like muellesing, docking,cruel shearing practices,removing testicles,sewing up tears etc."

Alot of those relate to sheep who seem so stupid one might wonder. But I'm sure they feel pain. Perhaps the farmers are just rationalising their actions with wishful thinking when they don't see much of or any reaction.

"If we cant relate to the subjects of any controlled study or trial to determine pain, suffering or whatever, we cant actually get an accurate result..if they cant tell you then you cant then just assume their answer...that is not for anyone to say except the subject themselves..we havent learned 'talk to the animals' yet so until we do..."

Would you assume that a deaf and dumb person could not feel pain if they had not learned to communicate? Why is it essential to put it into words when the pain is sometimes so clearly expressed? If a human said "that hurts" they could be lieing. However if reacted like the hurt animal you could be more confident that they were hurting.

“Perhaps the farmers are just rationalising their actions with wishful thinking when they don't see much of or any reaction.”

Rationalising their actions? Do you feel that farmers perform some of these procedures for the fun of it? I have seen a couple of times on this thread reference to farmers inflicting cruelties on animals. Do you think those comments are fair?

Sure, I will agree that there are some animal husbandry procedures that I feel are unnecessary, but the majority are in the interest of the animals long term health and well being. (as long as a farm animals life can be I suppose)

I am sure that if is was unnecessary to mules, dock tails, castrate etc, the farmer certainly wouldn’t bother with all that time and expense.

We are not talking major surgery here, the animal no doubt feels pain during one of these rather quick procedures, but isn’t that better than living in distress or dying a long painful death?

Lets just think for a moment about the pain we inflict on ourselves or fellow humans in the name of health, beauty or whatever. Vaccinations, dentistry, all sorts of medical procedures.. We know it is necessary so we tolerate the pain for the long term benefits.

Pisces..I think the point is, even when we go to the dentist we are offered pain relief are we not?

So why then arent animals given pain relief when it is a simple enough thing to do ..Id say because the farmers are too cheap or too lazy and just dont care.A local anthestic ,a quick injection..how hard can it be.?

In this day and age we should be embracing new practices and welcoming more humane methods of pain relief to animals whereever it is possible..

And as for the barbaric shearing practices..sack them.

'In this day and age we should be embracing new practices and welcoming more humane methods of pain relief to animals whereever it is possible.."

A very valid point Taurus. Why arent these things available to farmers? OK there has been a big fuss recently about mulesing and now they are developing a pain relieving spray? farmers have wanted these these things for ages but unless a vet is present (at astronomical expense) it is not possible?
What can they do?

Pisces

From what I know its more the Animal Welfare groups that have been wanting pain relief for ages more than farmers.

So how do you know what farmers have been wanting for ages ?

Do you have a farm?

Perhaps a pig farm / for example.?

There are some good farmers and there are more and more the intensive farmers that dont give a rats arse about pain.

I have never heard of a bunch of farmers campaining for the Government to introduce pain relief to be honest.

To my knowledge PETA started the muesling debate and the farmers hate them for it.

Good job done by PETA and here in Australia Animals Australia and Animal Liberation too.

Last I heard farmers were screaming to the Government about all forms shapes and people speaking out about the cruelty.

Of course there would be the good ones but you would not hear from them because they would be in silent approval of PETA and Animals Australia and Animal Liberation like I am.
I think if you look you will find AACT in Tasi did a fair bit of work on that as well.
There is a story somewhere where I think the farmers chased those people off or tried to.

I would really be happy if you could direct me to any farmer who was willing to speak out about wanting pain relief for his animals and not getting help after asking.

I do mean a real farmer with a real name.
do you know some farmers that would say something?
I await your reply because If you do its the first big step forward.
Great Thread By the way. I opended another thread before I saw this one.
Good to see some sensible talks going on between people concerned about animals.

Benny

You seem to be under the delusion that farmers cant do anything without animal liberationist, or some government department holding their hand.

You are right about their reaction to extremist groups though, they dont benifit the animals in the end, just bored and misguided people. They need to be exposed for what they really are. I dont mean reputable agencies, I mean those lttle minority groups that are just out to cause trouble.

Your exposure to "real farmers" is obviously very limited.

So 'Pisces' what is your experience in relation to farming?

Be very interested to know exactly what kind of farm youve had recent experience with..

Well taurus, I dont believe you are truly interested in what I do, only in attacking me. If you would like to apoligise for your last accusation on the take it outside thread, then I will think about it.

Pisces how was that an attack..its clear we have different ideas about what constitutes an attack?..it was a question..and very valid given your post accusing Benny of not having any idea about 'real farmers'..Id call that an attack.Maybe you can explain then.

Did anyone watch Landline today? It is repeated at 11am tomorrow on the ABC for those interested.

The first section was devoted to the new code for welfare of pigs. They compared a wonderful free range farm near Inverell NSW, with an intensive piggery run by the head of Australian Pork. He showed the procedures they do on new born piglets. Cutting off their teeth and tails (didnt show the castration) Did anyone think those little animals were in pain? Are these procedures necessary?

There is also another section on how live exports are saving the farmers during this extended drought. I know some here will be interested in that.

Pisces...I hope your wonderful free range farm near Inverell really is as wonderful as you say..and thanks for the info.. I will tune in .At least you are now in the spirit of the forum and that is certainly welcome for a change.

Taurus
We believe the farm at Inverell is as good as its been reported.

Pisces No didnt catch it has a bbq. Big red steak and bundy. that ought to get the libbers going. but [thanks] Will tape it have lawyers at 11am.

Pisces we all know land lines reporting on live exports and why so dont get too excited/ Slaughtering here is not rocket Science you know. Australia the clever country is exporting animals in their most vaulable form
Mean time here are some of the track records regarding live exports.
http://www.halakindmeats.com/elders.html
AQIS / AMSA Trial into live Exports
Indication of inadequacies into the trade which resulted in suffering and death of export animals.

April 1997 high death rate cattle long voyage slow ship to Middle East.

April 1997 cattle high deaths move from hot to cold stockmans deaths report does not concide with AMSA report.

April 1997 cattle did not eat pellets (died)

April 1997 feral goats died

May 1997 cattle high deaths

May 1997 sheep died engine problems hot Middle East

May 1997 cattle died

May 1997 sheep died amonia level

May 1997 sheep and cattle 70% death

June 1997 sheep died chilled trucked through rain rough seas pneumonia

July 1997 high death sheep 4 Ports no water

July 1997 thousands feral goats died

July 1997 sheep mortalities 3 Ports high deaths

July 1997 goats stress

August 1997 late pregnant cattle aboarded and died

August 1997 sheep high deaths ammonia rough seas very hot

September 1997 cattle mortalities stomach bloats high deaths

September 1997 high death sheep no ventilation

September 1997 90% cattle died hot humid Persian Golf

October 1997 exacerbated leg injuries heavy steers

November 1997 high deaths in sheep and goats engine problems

November 1997 high sheep mortality

November 1997 cattle ship vessel overloaded deaths intestinal wind
high deaths

1980 the entire 40,605 sheep were trapped and perished at sea in ship caught fire

1980 disease outbreak deaths 2713 sheep

1985 14,994 sheep died from heat exhaustion on board on the FERMANDA F

This is the worste Time To Ship Sheep Right Now

Rachel06

When animal owners have busy lives they lack the time to properly observe their animals. I am often able to properly assess my animals simply by their facial expressions! Here are some other recent observations:

1. An aggressive dog ripped off the tip of another dog's ear. The victim screamed for some seconds. Had I not witnessed this occurrence, I would have assumed the screams to be human in sound. The victim danced around snapping at the air for some time - almost epileptic. Clearly, the dog was experiencing a lot of pain.

2. The dog, which I have mentioned in a previous post, who was flyblown was completely silent. I suspect it was half dead anyway. The maggots (thousands of them) were feeding off the entrails and testicles - a hideous sight! I am informed that this animal had been whimpering and crying long before it had got to that stage, in the hope that its owners would have inspected him - which they had not!

I am in no doubt that animals also experience emotional pain. I am told that my dog howls while I am away. Since I've never heard him howl, he must clearly be fretting over my absence.

I have concluded that animals experiencing pain, are often silent which tells me that they are no different to humans, as we often suffer in silence too! Humans who suffer from migraines are usually silent, however, I understand that their pain is quite unbearable!

Humans need to "get over themselves" and realise that they are not the superior species. Only then will we see a more humane treatment of animals and yes, a review of farming practices (including the disgusting overcrowding) is well overdue!

Perhaps some of the cruel humans will reincarnate as farm pigs! Now that's what I would call "Karma"!

Pisces,

Yes I think the comments are fair!

In response to the allegation that farmers claim that muellesing, docking etc. doesn’t cause pain:

"Like for example..farmers etc will inflict all kinds of cruelities on animals and because they dont react to pain in the same way we do ,and assume that they then, dont feel any or much pain?.like muellesing, docking,cruel shearing practices,removing testicles,sewing up tears etc."

I said:

“Perhaps the farmers are just rationalising their actions with wishful thinking when they don't see much of or any reaction.”

I did not mean to suggest that they did it for the fun of it or to speculate on the merit of the procedures. I only meant to respond directly to the allegation I quoted.

Someone commented on a fly blown dog. A fly blown sheep will obviously suffer more than one that has had a procedure to prevent that. The procedures would obviously hurt. Only someone feeling guilty and wanting to rationalise the hurt would suggest that no pain is involved.

Nevertheless that emotional response is irrelevant to whether or not the procedures have benefit. My above comment is my attempt at explaining the alleged belief that the farmers claim to think the beasts do not feel pain. Please consider the comment completely in that context. Perhaps this needed to be clarified so that we don’t get our wires crossed.

Dickie, ..'perhaps some humans will reincarnate as farm pigs'...well said and I can think of at least one who would qualify for that karmic experience if fate and justice prevail.:)

That incidence of the dog was horrific and there goes to show right there that not all animals in pain neccessarily express it.,
and your completely right in all youve said there ,as I long suspected that to be the case.

Ahh, that all depends now on which pig farm they end up at! That place just on Landline doesnt look too bad now does it! May be better than were you goes are going :)

mjpb

I do apologise. I understand now where you are coming from.

Did anyone catch the repeat of landline? Just the way he was holding those piglets looked painful. Interestingly, the piglet did not sqeal through the procedure.

And also Pigfarmer..you may as well take this thread to..as youll work to get me banned now..

Thanks all for your contributions...especially mjpb.

That should have been Pigfarmer/pisces....rachel

ROFL Slipped up big time on that last post. Forget to switch ids?

Rachel. I have not said anything to offend you yet you have a problem with me. Why?

I have done nothing but try to discuss the topic at hand on a thread I believe you yourself started.

Are we to continue this subject without harrassment? Or if you wish me gone just say so.

How do you explain the above comment then..Pigfarmer..dont give me the "pisces" crap.

Yes I did start this thread and I hope I can continue with it..but thats not what Pigfarmer wants.

To follow on from the flyblown dog issue...as I said before if the dog who had to be in excruciating pain, did not give any idication that he was, this surely then proves that a dog would not be the only animal to react this way..

Small animals such as mice ,guinea pigs, the reptile family,all fishes, large and small, I saw someone fillet a fish alive and it had no recognisable pain response..even though it made MY stomach heave....how do these animals express pain?

We cannot just assume that because an animal gives no outward indication of pain that we as humans recognise...that cant in actual fact be in pain.

By the way Pisces..if for some reason I am wrong about you and the Pigfamer being one and the same..I apolagise..

No I dont want you to go..your posts is very interesting.

Rachel, I have no intention of disturbing your little 'bash the pigfarmer' session. I have a message for you here:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=70#2839

Pisces..

You questioned a point I mad awhile back about why pain relief isnt made available to farmers and the fact that vets are so cost ineffective..is it true that a vet currently has to be consulted and actually onsite when certain pain relief procedures are being done?

Im wondering where I can get this info. from but when i get some background into this I will post again.

I have some grave concerns also about the way in which buffallo and wild cattle are rounded up and culled..

tThey are shot from helicopters and 'hazed' I believe the description is from 4 wheel drives..this takes place whist the cattle etc are in full gallop from copters and vehicles that are also moving...they are wounded and left to die in extremely horrific ways..

Wouldnt firing a dart loaded witha strong fast acting sedative be a better way to go

Hope you dont mind me jumping in here Taurus, but this is a subject I get a bit heated about :)

There are no anesthetics available to farmers. It must come from a vet and be adminstered by them also. Even the new spray coming out for mulesing - a vet is 'supposed' to be present for every sheep sprayed.

And its not like we can turn up at the vet with a truckload of sheep to have them treated. You have to pay the vet travel, visit fee and their hourly rate plus the drugs used. So to use anesthetic to castrate piglets, the vet has to adminster the drug, the farmer can do the operation thats ok, but then the vet has to wait for the next animal. Can you imagine the expense? I dont castrate but that presents a whole other problem.

Pain relief after the procedure, thats another story. The vet can prescibe it for the farmer and they can inject the animal themselves. If the idea is to protect us from misuse of drugs, shouldnt it be the other way around?

Ring any vet, they will tell you the same.

You are right about those poor buffalo - a tranquilizer dart would be much more humane. Although, with their hearts pumping at such a pace from that kind of stress, I imagine the end would be pretty swift? What is hazing?

Hi pigfarmer,

Yes it would seem that you are caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes to pain relief 'options' in relations the working reality of a farm environment..
yes and I can see how having to truck sheep/pigs/cattle etc is a less than satisfactory situation..so do you have any working alternatives on this one..youve obviously given it some thought seeing as though would likely face this conundrum more frequently than youd like.?
It may sound a bit out there but in far reaching outback areas these days,....doctors can consult and dispense advice via a teleconferencing medium..wondering if this principal could be adapted to suit a farm situation?..does that sound just too off with the fairies? Im not a farmer per se and it does show.

Hazing is a term for work carried out by bounty hunters that go after wild cattle and buffallo..ie:4 wheel drives equipped especially for this work..platform(some) for the roof..very large and robust roll/bullbar and they literally run these animals into the ground and maim them..they go under the truck,shot and basically mangled.It is a very cruel practice...but as these animals are regarded as feral..it seems they are not afforded any form of respect at all.

They can be bought down with a 250 or a 303..but only a clean shot will do the job humanely and most times a moving target is very difficult to hit cleanly.

It is difficult, because you want to do the best you can for the animals in your care, but without knowing what sort of pain they are feeling, which way do you go?

If anesthetic was available for me to use, I would definately castrate. I used to castrate without anesthetic, as young as possible when things were still tiny, in the hope that it caused the least pain. I have tried to judge their pain. If you hold a piglet upside down by its back legs, usually, they do not squeal. I have watched them castrated in this position, studied their eyes, muscle stiffness for any signs. None, that doesnt mean no pain, just cant tell.

The down side to not castrating is the sexual activity as they get older. I have used the words pack rape before to try and paint a vivid picture. Lets say it worked :)

Male pigs just seem to prefer other male pigs and can cause their unconsenting victim a lot of stress, pain (?) and injury. We are free range pig farmers so intensive piggeries dont have as much of a problem with smaller pens of pigs.

I still question, is the 1 minute of pain at a few days old better than weeks of torment?

If you have a consulting vet like we do, you can make arrangements for certain drugs to be on the premises, but not aneshetic.

MJPB
Your post on the 16th raises the issue of thought. A good farmer dog owner Stock man vet or just plain animal owner can look at a beast in the eyes to judge paid.
You can tell if a beast is crook by his eye. Same as a horse.
In fact most animals.
A real horse man will tell in a flash. Same as a cattleman. I guess the same applys with sheep but I personally have.
Its just experience.
The old timers are few and far I am afraid.

Breaking Rural News : LIVESTOCK
ABA calls for push to re-open abattoirs to reduce huge queue
Australia
Wednesday, 18 October 2006

Australian Beef Association (ABA) chair, Linda Hewitt, today called on MLA and State Governments to assist in opening recently closed abattoirs.

Urgent action is needed, she says, to help stem the 'meat production disaster' that is engulfing Australia.

She said, “The flood of livestock on to the market is unprecedented.

"So is the speed of the crash to producers.

"When people are paying $1000 for breeders in one month, and in the next month, they are worth under $500, we are into new and frightening territory.

"It's a crisis which is galloping upon all those in the rural Australia.

"Our beef industry has good finished young cattle falling 33pc and good cows falling 38pc in price inside two months.

"Meanwhile the world market remains strong.

“Last week, Australia had filled only 255,000 tonnes of the 378,000-tonnes US beef quota.

"We have been shipping around 6,500 tonnes a week.

"So we will not even reach 300,000 tonnes by the end of November, the ‘cut off’ date for 2006.

How ridiculous!

"We won’t fill 80pc of the US quota.

"Yet we have prices diving to 1975 cattle depression levels.

"This is because ‘drought selling’ has triggered a huge backlog for killing and chiller space.”

Mrs Hewitt said that the MLA should be making the Government aware of this disaster.

MLA and Government jointly introduced the $5/head levy, plus the very costly NLIS and LPA systems, ‘to safeguard our markets’.

Action will assist in restoring employment, stem the price fall, and contribute to fill the remaining US quota.
Australian Beef Association chair, Linda Hewitt, calls for action.

Wizard Cilia. This is the start and if we all work together and multiply throughout Australia it will be a win for Animal Welfare and long term empoyment.








.

Gee benny, were did that come from? Was there a point?

Seems the waters here are a little calmer, I will caustiously step in.

Taurus, thats what I was trying to get at with my comment. Farmers dont enjoy doing those procedures and putting their livestock through pain, they just dont have too many choices.

So is this type of cattle mustering still going on? How come we never hear any fuss made of it? All the hoo harr they make about conditions at saleyards and transport yet this is happening?

PF..when you pose it that way I guess, yes the minute of pain(if indeed it is a minute..a cut is painful longer than that, but not unbearable i guess) may indeed negate the longterm problems associated with uncut pigs at a later date, and under the circumstances what are you to do..you are taking a very responsible approach.

You have never heard of hazing PF?

Pisces..I cant tell you why media attention hasnt been highlighted to the revolting practice of hazing in its current form..Just as there are no watchdogs, or were rather, to oversee if we used humane practices to cull foxes as they were regarded as a feral pest,as indeed these wild cattle and Buffallo...buffallo are an introduced animal and wild cattle are out of control..

Maybe you could tell me?

I had never heard the term, but when you described it, I remember reading about it in a book (that I cant remember the name of) She had Bullaroo in the top end, whats her name, it wont come to me? Anyway, they described vehicles like that that they caught rouge young bulls with. didnt sound that bad in the story - but then again, she wouldnt have wanted the attention that would have gone with it.

Castrated piglets show little sign of stress after the procedure. Straight back to what they were doing. They dont even swell up like cattle. Probably because these were done so young and 'things' were very small. Teeth cutting on the other hand seems to knock them around more.

Do Animals feel pain? What are the pain indicators in animals? part1

Hello Rachel06
Thanks for your interesting thread. Some of the posters made really good points re pain
Animals have a soul and the same chemical makeup as we so why should they feel differently.

Not every person is an animal lover and consequently dont know that animals suffer.
Laboratory test on animals and vivisection etc are good examples that animals indeed feel pain to the point that they commit suicide while restrained.
How much more pain indicator is needed as evidence?
Iam not sure if I am allowed to name companies that test their product on animals so I wont.
Isnt it true that if an orderinary person inflicts harm on their pet its called cruelty but if a laboratory tech or Professor inflicts horrible pain on a defenceless, restrained animals its called scientific research purposes and the person in question gets paid for being cruel.
Why having this double standard?
Where do we draw the line to what is acceptable or not.

http://www.justiceforanimals.co.za/anti_vivisection.html

I believe that a person inflicting harm like on an animal is enjoying maiming it as it gives them power over something in this case defendless animals what ever species it may be and in my opinion has a serious psychological problem that needs to be treated.

Pigs held by the neck dont scream true, why?
Because it their mothers way of bringing their offspring to safety. see dogs cats bears lions rabbits etc.

Some animals and people are silent sufferers if they are, why?
Certain pets hide when they are sick why?
Why does another animal is severe pain does not whinge, scream?
Some animals are not able to make louds, others might be just too sick/weak to complain.

People have a low or high pain threshold therefore can deal with their pain accordingly.
Why is it that people ridicule another person for not walking properly?
Isnt this a sign of being in pain?

Maybe the person in question doesnt want to worry others or doesnt want sympathy only the person would know

And yes there are people who can see when another person is sick, without speaking to him/her.
Why should animals behave different from us?
Only a trained eye will pick up that an animals sick unless there is evidence of a fracture.

Problem with Mulesing and blowfly prone sheep?
Solution breed animals that dont need mulesing and are not prone to blowflies.

Its obvious that castrated and mulsed dont move for several days because of pain.
Some animals might not feel the pain while being mutilated, because they are so stressed and scared but they surely feel the pain for days after the procedure.
Every surgical procedure no matter how small it seems can kill an animal.
Yes, the young ones go and suck as soon as they possibly can as it gives them some sort of comfort and reasurance.

Indicator of pain?
Unable to move, crouched position, excessive salivation, licking paws, looking dazed, etc.

Taurus I agree with you no animal should be killed via 4X4 or from air.
Professional shooters killing Roos are given a certain amount of ammunition to use.
They wont give a maimed animal a mercy shot. May be the same rule applies to shooters of feral introduced animals.
I also detest that any animals being poisoned Brumbies etc.

Using darts on the animals is uneconomical as the tranquilizer/sedative is a very expensive exercise, unless they swamp the market with a generic/synthetic product.
Tranquilizers are given individually as every animal has a different weight so you can not use one certain amount for all animals. Healthy animals will need more of the sedation than a sick one.
Theres a tranquilizer that works instantly but if the animal is near a gully or on higher ground or in an area with lots of branches it can break its neck or fracture bones etc its not really practical.
Again due to AVA regulations its only Vets that are allowed to use tranquilizers and nobody is able to pay that bill…
The problem of killing the animal still remains.

Welcome Poppa Smurf! ROFL

Sows carry piglets around by the scruff of the neck?? No knowledge of pigs I gather?

The only time Ive seen a sow with a piglet between her jaws was when she was eating it!

You guys slay me..:)

Sensible Smurf..welcome to the thread..its clear you will provide interesting debate..

The reason small animals hide their pain goes back as part of the evolutionary process..before domestication.If an animal appeared to be sick and injured it was most likely picked off first by predators..so hiding pain was a survival technique.My guinea pigs (my kids) are one such animal that does this.

Kangaroos shooters traditionally werent allocated ammunition..could be different now, but I dont see how they could do their job if that were the case.
They are allocated numbered ear tags by the goverment as they have a quota to fill and weight limits to adhere to.

I dont remember our sows picking up piglets by the scruff:) but the theory is sound?

Pisces I think I remember that woman you speak of..Sara Henderson or some such..did she have breast cancer at some point?

Correction-That above comment re "Sara Henderon ' was directed to PF.

Yes, Sara Henderson, thats who I was thinking of. She died not long ago.

"I dont remember our sows picking up piglets by the scruff:) but the theory is sound?"

Can anyone name an animal outside the feline and the canine family that carries its young by the scruff of the neck? Dogs and cats are the extent of most peoples experience with animals and they try to apply their traits to all.

It annoys me when animal welfare groups use the same attitude in their arguement against intensive piggeries. It leaves them looking silly and only helps reinforce the 'extremist' tag. Pigs are just not the sweet doting mothers that they try and portray.

Bars or not, a sow will do absolutely nothing to assist the young she has given birth to. They make their own way or die. Crows, foxes, they can pick them off as they are born, she will do nothing. They seem to be in a trance like state for the first couple of days. After that, some sows will be very defence of their young, some wont. The only thing that seems to trigger defence is a squealing piglet.
And the singing that sows do when they feed their piglets? Sounds so sweet and maternal? The purpose is, it causes a large rise and fall of the abdomin and lets her milk down.

If a sow is suffering nutritional deficiancies, especially protien, she may rectify that by eating her young.

Apart from calling her young to feed, a sow seems to have very little interest in them unless they sqeal.

The point to all this? You cant make blanket statements and apply the cute puppy label to farm animals. If you dont know what you are talking about dont try and make it up.

Thats sad that Sara Henderson died..she did it tough way out there.

I think SS that there wouldnt be any need to accurately measure exact amounts of sedative if the animal were to be destroyed anyway, the aim would be to bring down the animal humanely and then destroy it..the expense side of it, if that were a factor,would as you say to find a generic alternative.

I also do see your point about castration having ,in some cases, painful after effects especially if infection set in, but I guess sterile equipment would no doubt be used having said that.

Mulesing is a particularly nasty practice and I know for a fact that from what I witnessed in my time on sheep stations as a kid, that that would indeed be painful..

Mulesing is a very nasty practice taurus29..it leaves sheep in quite severe pain...wounds left open and some quite deep..there would, as you say have to be pain..no 2 ways about it.

I also notice that sheep give no obvious outward indicators of the pain they feel..not that the average punter would pick up on anyway.

Breaking Rural news
Thanks Benny I see your point. If they can start doing that now and multiply it its a start to improving animal welfare.
Do you have any real idea how how it might take to set these places up again.?
How many are they going to open. Do you know. ?
Its certainly great news.
Thanks for letting us know. I will do a Google search and see if there is any more in the press about it.

Hi all,

Here is a link that will give some insight into pain indicators under a controlled lab environment....http://www.research.neu.edu/policies_forms/documents/paindistress.pdf.

interesting.

Id just like to recount a practice that I as a shooter some years ago saw and wondered about..I went out with a mate , he was also a shooter..at that time and it was generally talked about the practice of using cyanide on foxes and roos..more foxes though.

The idea was to cut down the sheer workload of being up all night.

The theory was(and was put into practice) to make wax shell from candle wax,melted,dip in the end of a steel and let the wax go hard,slide it off and you had a shell..into that shell you poured powdered cyanide..seal the top with animal fat or wax..put them in a box in the truck..go out shoot a roo, drag a trail and then lay these baits along it,up and back as far as you wanted really.Go back to camp for an early night.

In the morning go over your trail and pick up dead foxes..some foxes were paralysed but not dead...this was an easy awy to go but had its drawbacks..skins were compromised though and it was highly dangerous.

I often wondered if cyanide poisoning was painful if it went wrong as it sometimes did ..these foxes looked groggy but that was about it.

Any info?