In order for something to bang there HAS to be matter of some description to react. That matter has also got to be somewhere...in something. And something has to happen in order for a reaction to occur.

So what's the deal with the universe, pre-Big Bang?...scientifically speaking

The age old question. What came first. The chicken or the egg. I think we humans will never know. I believe its always been there and its also a never ending story of create and distroy. Just take the god way out and save your self a headache. Just kidding. My thoughts on this is, when stars die black holes are formed. I believe that these black holes will all join up and then dence gravity starts to pull matter back in again. Then once everything has been sucked in BANG! It all starts again.

Just a thought.

Good question, that I'm sure many of us have pondered.

Quite some time ago, I decided that there's currently no satisfactory answer, so I accept that the answer has to be we don't know for now.

Personally, I live with that uncertainty quite happily.

If more evidence comes to light, I'm equally open to being convinced.

I think one idea which stands out is the idea of the oscillatory universe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscillatory_universe

The universe must always have been becasue you cant have something from nothing.

Time must always have been becasue you cant have a "time" when there was not time.

I have also heard theories that the universe and time are round so eventually we will all come back to the begining and do it all over again!

"In the beginning....God created the heavens and the Earth"

first verse of the first book of the Good Book.

Good BD who then made God? from what matter? why?

Evolution~ "What came first. The chicken or the egg?.

The egg. ;o)

I see negatives for every argument. Even religion. Although I'd like to avoid the topic. What is God?. God would have to matter in order to create matter. Wind can't do it. Water can't do it. Good vibes and an extra charismatic personality can't.

I find it interesting that it's one of the obvious, fundamental questions of our existence, but we have no idea. Shows you how limited and basic we actually are.

~God would have to *be matter....

guys, visit your library. there are books there that will give you the state of play in layman's language.

the important aspect of reading (popularized) science is that no one claims to have the last word. however, science does have sufficient data to sketch out the last 12 billion years or so with a high figure of confidence. so it's worth putting your bets with the scientific community, rather than the wish-merchants of religion.

maybe there was no 'before the bang', in a sense. maybe there was, in a continuum we can not experience because too alien. either way, 12 billion years is enough history to be going on with, let's turn our attention to the present, and the immediate future: there are pressing matters close at hand

Youre right StG.
For a bang, there must be pre-existing material.
This is where Evolution collapses when it says that there was a pond and some little organisms in the pond, and then they split and then they became little fishes, then they grew legs and then they climbed out of the water and up onto the land, and then they mutated and grew hands and feet and tails, and then they climbed up an tree, and then stepped down from the tree as early man. It borders on an insane look at things, showing it as a theory and not to be taught in the schools as set truth.
Who put the pond there, who put that world there, who put that system there, who put that galaxy there and named all of the stars knowing each one by name? God did it all ...and the whole Creation is accepted by faith. Faith in God and His Incredible Power and faith in the Messiah He Sent to save us from the Final Judgment. What happened in the garden at Eden is the truth. Man fell into rebellion... and needed a Redeemer. Jesus. His Blood covering those who come to Him to be forgiven. The penalty for Adams' sin went down the line to all of Adams descendents. All need The Blood because there is no forgiveness for sin without the shedding of blood. This is the simple rule.
Millions of years is the joke.
If it was that long ago then Nostalgia... that great longing for what has been lost in the perfect garden at Eden with the expulsion from the garden... would have faded away into nothinglessness untold aeons ago. The earth maybe old but the life on it is recent. Read Ephesians 6:12-18 about the war between God and satan over mens lives.

Hi Belly

please think about your question..and then.. look up 'God' in wiki.
Every word has a definition.... and God..by definition.. (or..by self revelation I prefer) has no beginning..no end..
In any case..the idea of 'beginning' and 'end' are related to our understanding of 'time'...which itself is created by God.

STARTING POINT... in understanding God.. must always be "His self revelation"

STG.. I'm sorry mate..I can't contribute anything to the science aspect.. try (Rev) Dr John Polkinghorne :)

Demos.. you continue to make rather wise comments.... 'onya moit'

I love how everything is SO simple for most people of faith. I reckon the thing that annoys me is that they let someone else do the thinking for 'em.

I'm a Christian. And staunch Pro-Israel. But mate, ask some questions sometime. Blind faith makes you no different to fundi 'anyone'. You are all only separated by circumstance.

Fundi-christian StG survives. Its narrow in its outlook because it loves The Lord and doesnt want to wander. You cant come into Jesus and allow a wandering over to other things. If you do the flesh fails and satan takes you away.
Youre as christian StG as I am pro-Pope or pro-traditional dry churches.
You have to be born again to be christian (John3:3). Confess the sin and invite Jesus Christ in and mean it StG. Come alive lad and invite Him in and be sincere.

"You have to be born again to be christian (John3:3)."

Sheesh, I was born ok the first time Gibo, so if you
need another birth, speak for yourself :)

DB, that's one of the chief reasons why the 'god' explanation of creation simply doesn't cut it.

If god is the explanation for how the universe was created, then what created god? The answer then becomes, 'god has always been.'

On the other hand, that hasn't explained anything. I may as well follow Occam's Razor and go with the simpler explanation - that the universe has always been.

Essentially, this points out the fact that some things can't be explained.
We can either run around in circles creating more mysteries that create just as many conundrums, or we can learn to live with the fact that regardless of what happens, there will be no definitive conclusions to some questions.

Man created religion to explain certain mysteries, but it was a futile exercise.

Sorry to spoil such an erudite discussion by questioning a 'fundamental' assumption, but why is it a given that you can't make something out of nothing?
A reasonable starting point could be to work from current knowledge, i.e. we can't know anything about pre-big bang. If so, then we don't know any of the 'rules' pre-big bang, so there is nothing to say whether or not you could make something out of nothing.
Even in our own universe, that 'rule' breaks down at the quantum level--Hawking radiation; pairs of complementary virtual particles arise spontaneously all the time and just as spontaneously annihilate each other (ALMOST always).
StG, I believe the doctrine of almost every religion is that god is unknowable. If so, then god, like the pre-big bang, could exist outside the rules of 'our' universe, and could be in other forms than matter (or energy, same thing) that we can't conceive.
And please, someone explain to me the segue from start of the universe + or - god) to the evolution of organic life on a minor (albeit exceptional to us) satellite of a minor second generation star only 3-4 billion years old, in the outer suburbs of one very ordinary galaxy.
I almost got into responding to Gibo there, but I do realise that time spent applying logic or even plain commonsense to the products of a closed mind, is wasted. I could almost second Yabby's comment. My suggestion is, if you want to convert anyone to your worldview, you take Demos's advice, go to a library, and at least get to know your enemy's take on it. It sure as hell doesn't involve fish growing tails and climbing out of trees

We'll never know, but the cyclic version postulated here with black holes collapsing together until one singularity is reached the blowing out in a 'big bang' is a good contender.

Also, the theory that a pre big bang universe had completely different properties and parameters is just as probable.

No, we'll never know.

Maybe the god thing is true. Maybe the universe is a round ball that hangs off gods key ring that starts his or her intergalactic commdore.
I will stick to science\evolution. One of the biggest questions is, how big is big. Out side the universe, we could be quite small.
But the fact of the matter is, we just dont know.

Thank you STG for your pondering question. I beleve if one does not ponder,
one will not find the answer.

Evolution – Does god need to be a him or her? Shouldn’t god be an it?

How big is big? Well size is infinite in both “bigness” and “smallness”! You can keep dividing a number or cutting something in half forever so things can be infinitely small. The universe is also infinitely large due to there being matter in the universe. It is not comprehendible to imagine something which does not have something outside of it so it is unlogical to say the universe has a set size.

Easytimes. Nothing is impossible just improbable. I called god him|her
because if there is a higher being, I think calling it, it a bit disrespectful. The bible calls it him. I like to be a bit more open minded. Just in case.

Back to the piont. If you look at the beans in a bean bag, it is very simular to the galaxies in the universe. But there is still more out side the bean bag, isnt there.

The BB seeks to explain the formation of this universe, and doesn't say anything about other universes, or what may have been before. neither does it address LIFE, as opposed to matter- can never understand why Boazy and his like get so caught up in the material when their argument is about life and the spiritual.

Space is the distance between objects, so it stands to reason that as the universe expands then space is being created. And the more we look, the further we see across the universe.

At the other end of the scale, science is now wondering how to dissect quarks etc. It's a wonder that even something so small and so fundamental is composed mostly of space. Maybe at the base of it all there will just be a vibration- a gentle Ommmmm?

I wonder what the black stuff is that is the backdrop for the stars.

Without light, there is no time. Light or energy is life. Without light or energy, nothing exists.

What do you think is the Bible's point of view on the universe(COSMOS) and how it was created?

I know the Bibles Words on Creation Holmespretty. Just wondered about the black.
In Isaiah 14:13 we see the arch angel Lucifer falling into rebellion through his unlawful desire to sit on "the sides of the north".
Dakes Annotated Reference Bible Dakes suggests Heaven is a planet and is situated in the north part of the Universe from above the earth. Bible students will know that the Universe probably has a north, south, east and west like earth, so its probably round like earth. Its reported that above the north pole there is a vast dark hole in space with no galaxies which could easily be to "the sides of the north"...where God Sits. Not knocking the Heaven being a planet story but I think Heaven is more a spirit diminsion God being Spirit (John 4:24). My conclusion is that the Universe is big (we can see that), round and possibly inside an outer or other dimension.

Gibo, the 'black stuff' is merely an absence of light. This religious theory of the 'round universe' is a cracker. Didn't you used to persecute those who dared to say that the Earth was round and orbitted the sun? So now you have, again, changed your theories. It appears that when science comes up with proof for a phenomena, religion gradually changes its stances.
Says a lot for who's right. Religion or science?
BTW, the space shuttle doesn't navigate by compass.

Science is a corpse waiting to be buried in the tribulation of the Bibles last days. Look to God Lad. Science saved no world from sin. Get you facts right too. Boy, some of you guys sure need Jesus in your lives.

Religion is a corpse waiting to be buried in the tribulation of the ignorant's last days. Look to common sense lad. Religion saved no world from stupidity. Get your facts right too. Boy, some of you sure need common sense in your lives.

/\

Word, TurnRightThenLeft :)

TRTL. You cant seriously believe that science is the way to save the world when all of the hearts of men and women are fallen from conception?
All the species does is devour all before it.
As long as the heart is for personal greed and pleasure the earth is doomed.
The only way the heart can change is to bring it to Jesus Christ for Him to change back to the simple heart of an Adam and an Eve (before the fall) in the beautiful peace and quiet of a garden at Eden.

"The only way the heart can change is to bring it to Jesus Christ"

The heart pumps blood Gibo, its biology 101. If you want to
understand emotions, study the limbic system, but its not
in your bible.

You need to consider the fact, however awkward for you, that
you have actually been conned in a major way! If we look
at human history, there have been all sorts of religions,
all sorts of so called holy books. Most followers devoutly
believe whatever they were brainwashed with, as kids.
So had you grown up in Iraq for instance, you might be
a very good muslim :)

What is obvious is that most religious believers in fact
have been conned, for clearly they can't all be right,
given the number of interpretations of gods and holy books.

So perhaps I'll just stick to what can be shown by substantiated
evidence, to have some verification, rather then rely on blind
faith. Too many true believers have clearly been led up the
garden path, by religious snake oil salesmen.

"Sex Lives of the Popes", is an interesting read about how
the Christian leaders used to live it up. Next they would
sell indulgences for peoples sins. Thats the history of
the Christian Church and now you are telling me that I should
take notice. Sorry, I'll leave that to IMHO the gullible.

You can't believe plenty of Christians Gibo - god said so:

"Then if any man shall say to you Lo, here is the Christ, or, Here, believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets and shall show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the very elect." Matt. 24:23-24

"Therefore by their fruits shall you know them. Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by your name and by your name cast out demons, and by your name do many mighty works? And I will profess to them, I never knew you. Go away from me you who work evil." Matt 7:22-23

So to recap - according to the god you revere, plenty of Christians are in fact, full of bull and won't get into heaven.

I'm glad I'm not a Christian, especially not one of the ones that likes to hang around here and spout hatred for minorities or other religions.
Seems to me that these guts fail to embrace the 'love thy neighbour' aspect of christianity.
The logical conclusion is that they're the ones who'll get rejected by the very god they claim to follow.
After all, according to the passages above, somebody has to.

Ouch. Hope you like it in hell with the rest of us heathens.

Boy oh boy!...I just love the way this all comes together, what with the big bang,sex life of a pope,re-born christians and messiah's..

I'm surprised PALE hasn't put it's two cents worth in.

In any event, maybe God had a reason for creating the "the big bang"
Maybe the earth was as it is today and god said..

"to hell with it..it's all gone to pot, I think i'll stick a cracker up the universe's nought and blow it all to hell"

...After all, he is the creator, is he not?

Mention the topic of "we derive from apes" you are liable to get punched from a re-born or given a long drawn-out lecture (like all re-borns do) on how God created Earth.

The evidence is there guys.. whatever is discovered, shedding more and more light on where we actually came from, yet some prize @sshole will go and look up something that only "sounds" like an explanation out of the good book and deftly, with all his gumption, tell you..this is what happened..come on people, yes there is a god, in our minds..yes there was a big bang..there is proof...maybe we derived from a gnats left tit..who gives a flying turd?

They are all warnings TRTL. The New Testament is full of them. We are to test those who reckon they are from God. Not all are. If what they say lines up with the Word and they have been properly trained, they should do well. Their lives have to be special too. Sadly thats not always the case. Its still better to be born again than outside wondering. If we are ready for whats coming...i.e. endtimes... the impact wont be so severe.

You're undisciplined SPANKY.
If the Bible says God Created the Universe, why so much resistance? The Bible says "all scripture is inspired by God"...2 Timothy 3:16. Why cant you accept that The Holy Spirit came up men and they penned what He wanted them to pen. From the foundation of the earth we have had the voice of God. He speaks to people even today and wont ask you to do anything proud or sinful. Its all no big deal! Too much learning in this age and most of it substandard and unscriptural bringing men to fantasise and make theory and do ungodly things to other men.
I wonder what they are building today in Americas great science war labs to bless other men and women with?

Gibo, more importantly, why can't you accept that the bible could be wrong?

It was written by a diverse range of superstitious people, thousands of years ago.
The only verification we have that it's accurate, is the authors themselves.

By that precise same logic, I must be right because I said so.

Actually, no, technically the logic would be that I'm right because I say god says I'm right.

Anyone can claim god's divine truth. The fact of the matter is, He's not stopping anyone.

So Gibo, god said the bible's wrong. Follow that line instead. It's just as logical. In fact, it's more up to date and it hasn't had multiple interpretations by primitive people to muddy it further.

In fact, your arguments apply equally to the Qu'ran and the muslim faith. Or the Hindus. Or the Mormons. Or any of the thousand christian offshoots. Or the buddhists. Or the sun worshipping pagans of wherever you choose to name.

They're all just as convinced they're as right as you are Gibo, and they all make the same 'why can't you understand OUR god's right' kind of noises.

And they're all just as blind as each other, for the fact that they can't see how stupid their competing, conflicting faiths look from the outside.

Why can't you see that? ;)

Gibo,
"I wonder what they are building today in Americas great science war labs to bless other men and women with?"

A bigger PILL manufacturing plant to cope with all the underage pregnant teenagers!

Like I said Gibo, if you mis-interpret the good book and let those who want you to believe in the way they make you believe, it's up to you, the individual.

The words of the bible were written by a person who's brain was limited to the boundaries of his village, because that person never knew there was a world beyond. LOOK AT THE DATE, WHEN THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN!...then, when you have done that, think of what was available at that time..
put two and two together and you have the same situation as today..

Less than 100 years ago, we knew nothing of motor cars, we are presently flying to the moon in rockets!...has the penny dropped yet?

Gibo,
(lol)..Undisciplined?..I do not require a book for/or to dicipline myself with...nor do I have the desire to enter into aimless prattle with someone who is obviously controlled by a book written by someone with the knowledge to commensurate with that of a pea.

I got news for you babe..I WROTE THE DAMN BOOK!

Now..can we please return to the big bang bit?

'Science is a corpse waiting to be buried in the tribulation of the Bibles last days'
'Get you facts right too'.

So, Gibo, who invented the PC in front of you? A follower of science (that corpse-like thing) or God? I can't grasp the extent of your beliefs.

What 'facts' did I get wrong?

TurnRightThenLeft,
Obviously the postings on this thread are not a serious look at the facts that may have caused existence of matter and life. The Bible merely states in the beginning of time God (first cause) created space and matter. There is no possible conclusion drawn by the Bible on when that took place except it was the beginning of time. Matter and space is as old as the beginning of time. Time is measured by a cronology of events. The following verses indicate the beginning of light as it related to the Earth. Until the sun was evident on the third day there was no cronology evident in 24 hour days. As only the sun can defined a day as 24 hours. It could be that space and matter is as old as God - unlimited in time.

Philo, 'Obviously the postings on this thread are not a serious look at the facts that may have caused existence of matter and life'.

So why do you resort to bible mythology?

'As only the sun can defined a day as 24 hours'. It's not 24 hours on the moon. Or Venus. Mars is closer in day length. The sun does not define the length of day. It is the period of one planetary rotation.

Ok, so let me see if I understand all of this correctly,

We have a thread entitled "Before the bang" and the majority of this thread is based on religion.

Obviously, some of us are somewhat one-track minded, mislead and the misinterpretation of some of these postings are made by those who's lives are controlled by the pages of a book.

This is quite sad, having read the good book on many occassions, I find it (and I say this with all sincerity) the most depressing book ever written.
So,...basically, according to our christian (or whoever) brothers, we must all live in harmony... and depression and guilt and poverty...riding a damn donkey for the rest of our over sweetened, guilt felt, neurotic ridden lives...FOR WHAT?..TO WAIT FOR THE INEVITABLE BIG BANG!

Take time to think about it. Why is everything a circle.

Some of us prefer to recognise order and design as emerging from darkness and chaos that pre-existed the present ordered cycles in which we live; ordered and created by the moral mind and Spirit behind it all. Others speculate on the immagination and fantacy of their own philosophy and the negative biased mind of anti-creation.

I prefer to believe the human mind is the height of a design order that emerged from a former chaos (an effect) from among ionic chemical changes that reflect the mind that designed the nature of time, space and matter. I am happy enough to believe that matter or its component chemicals are eternal, though undergoing constant change in form and design. After all man in his present intelligent form has only been around a few thousand years, and is temporarily on this Earth.

The cyclic nature of the present design was expressed 2,500 years ago by the ancient texts of Job and by Solomon (Eccl 3: 1 - 12). A text that has been used in a recent song on turning - turning. Death and decay is the nature of the present chemical world, however the mind purpose and spirit behing the universe is eternal.

Thanks philo, that was deep. But to conclude on the big bang thing, I will just say this.

500 hundred years ago everyone one knew the world was flat.
300 hundred years ago everyone knew the earth was the centre of the universe.
And five minutes ago we all learnt something we didn't know before.

Imagine what we will learn tomorrow.

Evolution,
I see you have the first "men in black" in your collection!

Evolution,
The ancient text of Job, which is about 2,500 + years old, mentions that El the god of the earth in his watch encircles the Earth. This suggests that some writers among the ancient Chaldeans believed the Earth was a sphere. This is the only text in the Bible that mentions the shape of the Earth, and is concluded from the shape of the sun and the moon that is hung on nothing in space.

It appears the ancient Persian astrologers also were far more advanced in their knowlege of the planets and stars than the developing world of Rome.

Yes spanky, I thought it was relevant and I just loved the show. I have the strongest feelings, that we are not told everything that is going on, but none the less, we are moving forward very quickly. Maybe these shows are giving us little cryptic messages. I just wish this world would grow up, but that wont be anytime soon. I just hope we make it, I really do. Sorry for the dummy spit, but I really hate this century.
The big bang theory will be explained one day have no doubt of this, and the god that some believe in, will also be explained as well. We as a species are still very young and have a long way too go, but I think we will all be alright. We just need too get off this planet.
Its sick and getting sicker. Climate change and overpopulation, is pushing this planet the edge. We are no longer a species, but a virus.
This planet can not cope this pressure and it has been long over due for this earths next change. I strongly feel, we are running out time.

Philo. The ancients of the past had abilities we still do not comprehend today. We can only theorise to where they obtained there advanced knowledge from. But you have read my theory that if I lived 2000 plus years ago and something came out of the sky and spoke to me with all my primitive beings, I know i would drop to my knees in ore and listen to every word that this god had to say. As far as I'm concerned i believe that they have had outside help and what the big plan is we may never know. Why is everything round? because it is the perfect shape which i believe has endless applications. Man will one day create a sphere of pure energy that will be able to glide through the fabrics of time at the speed of light. I do believe we will hit this mark one day.

Time is enjoined with 3-D space in our experience. If we regress entropy backwards, we find Plank Time originated in the first split second of the [our] universe, leading to "our time", as we expereince it.

The question of the agency of the Bang's (sic. Expansion's)origin perhaps lies with how Phase Space evolves into universes (Roger Penrose). Relating the commencement of entropy from a precusor will probably probably further dvelopments in quantum mechanics.

Herein, we would have the instigation of determinancy verses indeterminancy, rather than cause and effect involved.

Building QM into our model might lead us to finding instigation factors other than time as we now experience it.

I see bullcrap, bluff and gibberish is not limited to religion. Good to see. kinda?

Bugsy,

Would you build your points to paragraphs and support your retorts?

O.

Well..
Here's his paragraphs..

1)Bullcrap
2)Bluff
3)Gibberish

Uh?...

It is pretty difficult to build a retort to gibberish Oliver. If you think that post of yours actually meant something to anyone, then you are sadly mistaken. Good science writing does not have to resort to jargon and only shows the limited communication capacity of the author.

While many people may not agree with what I say, at least they often understand it. I very much struggle to understand many authors of gibberish on this site, and then they often think that the problem is with my powers of comprehension, when in fact the opposite is true.

Bugsy,

My "gibberish" is drawn from Roger Penrose, and developments from Paul Dirac and extending [from Classic Physics], and, Werner Heisenberg. You should publish and explain where these guys are in error. If fact they are probably "imprecise", as might Mendel or Darwin, would be in relation to to modern genetics; but, at least it is a hopefully a puch in the right direct and greater understanding.

Although, calling others' works names will only have your acclaimations desk rejected. Justify your assertions.

Oliver, they may or may not be incorrect or 'imprecise', that is notmy issue. my issue is that you have lifted a bunch of words, without context and no explanation of the jargon that is used, and plonked them down in the middle of a politics/issues discussion website. They mean nothing to anyone except yourself (and perhaps steven, who loves to do similar things occasionally).

The plain language implications of your post may be interesting, and may be possibly achieved by Penrose. However that is not the case with yourself. The parallels with many of the religious authors on this site are uncanny.

Guys,
This is a thread on the topic of the "Big Bang".

Assertions and descriptions, prattle and guffaw are instruments to describe ones apathy and empathy within a sphere made up of those in any particular position being the head of, in control of, some type of main speaker, hell bent on scrutinising and deminishing other humans opinions for self gain.

In other words....egotistical bastards with no brain!

Our existance here on Earth has nothing to do with Darwin, Drake, Darma & Greg or Coronation sreet, we have evolved due to the bang, without it, we would not be here and if it were not for the bang, we could may as well have had our heads sprouting from our butt-holes!

Stop with the word comparing, they do not make one more knowledgeable than the other, first learn where to use the words in a paragraph, rather than try and impress others with idle, meaningless chatter and get to the point!...jeeeez!

Spanky,

THOUGHT I WAS ON TRACK

My point about Darwin was that his work lead to more precise work: Species evoled from common ancestors, and, Mendel to genetics. It was a metaphorical in the sense is that Penrose et. al is the position of Darwin with regarding how the Bang [prefer: Expansion] emerged. A frame for understandings to emerge maybe 50 years is set.

Time is a phenomenon which emerged from infinite indeterminancy - it seems given our "current" understanding of the orgin of this universe.

Cheers,

O.

Hey! spanky! You can not explain this universe any more than I can. So get off your high horse. There is no such thing as a dumb question or an answer. Just to think as we do, we should be humble and not full of arrogance. Yes! you all study the things of the past, but what new things have you come up with. I don't see much from your side. Thinking is a gift! Don't waste it.

Thanks Oliver, that was quite a bit clearer. It's not so hard is it?

Evolution,

...I'm thinking...thinking...still thinking...errr nope, the Big Bang still paints this picture of a cataclysmic explosion and after millions of years, still end up with what we have today.

'tis not arrogance my friend, just plain 'ol circumstantial evidence and revealed science of which I speak.

I am an avid follower of those who seek the truth behind our existance albeit we evolved from an ape or grape, makes no difference to me, what does interest me, is how we came to be, in such a short time and the parts missing in between the points of the explosion and crawling up onto the beach, grew feet and stood up!... thats the part where we, as humans came into fruition.

Not arrogance..just based facts and not fiction.

Spanky,

If you have access to an online database just flip through Scientific American for the past ten years.

Yes spanky! It makes no difference! That I can see. All the best with your thoughts.

Evolution,
Have you perhaps considered as to whether you have evolved? (no pun intended)

From your comments, on this thread and the other one you so blatantly abuse with your obtrusive remarks in a serious thread, go grow a brain that works for you and place it inside that cavity it seems to have fallen from.